Talk:Sherlock Holmes

The fact that some people choose to believe (or play at believing?) that Holmes is real and Conan Doyle "acted as Watson's agent for publication of Watson's memoirs" is interesting -- but I think these repeated asides detract from the text and may confuse. I suggest they be gathered into a seperate section on Holmesian fans. --Tarquin

I'm not sure that the Nero Woolfe or World Newton stuff really belongs in this page. It's a bit like putting something in the Adolf Hitler article about some science fiction author's book which has Hitler as a robot from the planet Gninichfarm. The Holmes stuff is obviously not as much of a non sequitur ; but to my eyes it definitely looks out of place. Mintguy

I agree with Mintguy. But perhaps there is room in this article for some discussion of the awful Young Sherlock Holmes and the wonderful The Seven Percent Solution and other post-Conan Doyle resurrections of Holmes... Slrubenstein

I agree. I'm not sure where the line should be drawn on this. Maybe, non-cannonical references should placed after the Conan doyle related stuff, I don't know. Mintguy

I agree it should come at the end. Like it or not "SH" is a character in novels written by other people besides Conan Doyle, and in movies not based on Conan Doyle's writings -- this is grounds for inclusion in the article, but I agree it must be clearly delineated, Slrubenstein

Isis I don't want to get into an edit war over a single word, but unexpected is certainly wrong as he was suffering with Cancer for a number of years. I cannot understand your objection to the word unfortunate. Mintguy

I think "unfortunate death" is a common cliche in English, and ought not to be parsed for NPOV the same way we might parse other phrases. An analogy would be saying "God Bless You" after someone sneezes -- even people who do not believe in God use the phrase, because the phrase as a whole has a meaning distinct from its parts. Slrubenstein

I can understand the objection to "Unfortunate." Some people consider all deaths unfortunate. With the exception of Hitler and Pol Pot and a few other world leaders I will decline to name, I personally consider almost all deaths unfortunate also. Back to the article, though: I'm opposed to "tragic," "untimely," and "unfortunate" deaths, as they imply an attitude the reader might not share. And I've never heard of a death that's exactly timely: "Uh, could you come back at 6? I'm busy now." Koyaanis Qatsi

But true Christians consider all deaths "fortunate" because the soul gets to be in God's presence forever after. -- isis 00:06 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC)

Well if all deaths bar the noted exceptions are unfortunate the the expression 'unfortunate death' suggests additional reasons for lamenting the death, as in the case of a composer dying before completing a symphony or an sportsman before completing a record run of successes etc.. Mintguy

I'm not a true Christian, or a false Christian, or religious of any stripe. --Koyaanis Qatsi

Same for me KQ. As for Jeremey Brett his death was unfortunate (in excess of the normal misfortune of death) for his legion of fans because he didn't complete the Canon and for anyone with a commercial interest in the same. Thus an unfortunate death. So if there are no more objections, at some point in the future when I have something more useful to contribute to this article, I'll put the word back. Mintguy

I'm not interested in an edit war over it; I was just stating my objection. Though for the benefit of people unfamiliar with his work, you might explain what drives people to term the death "unfortunate" (as you did above). :-) best, Koyaanis Qatsi

well the original sentence read "...all but nineteen of the Conan Doyle stories were filmed before the unfortunate death of Jeremy Brett in 1995." which I think does just that. Mintguy

I agree with Mintguy. It's quite clear what is meant by the above sentence. Isis, could we please have the word back? -- Tarquin 10:25 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC)

'Jeremy Brett died of cancer in 1995, which many people viewed as unfortunate.'

Isis all I can say is "good grief". Now it looks just plain daft putting in that second clause like that. The expression is unfortunate death. Mintguy

Anyway I'm off for a few days now.. See ya later.

That was precisely my point: Any way you make it NPOV sounds silly. "Unfortunate" involves a value judgment that is NOT neutral, so the best thing to do is not go there at all. That he died of cancer is a fact, and one that I didn't know -- I assumed he died because he was old, because everyone else who starred in the movie My Fair Lady was already dead -- so it adds something of substance to an encyclopedia article, which the former version did not, and maudlin sentiment in the articles undercuts the credibility of the whole project. -- isis 11:06 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, when would his death have become "mature" instead of "pre-" ? -- isis 23:58 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, "premature" is a bit odd. But I really don't see a problem with "unfortunate". It is quite clear from the context why it was unfortunate -- it prevented the completion of the filming of the entire body of Holmes stories. I don not think there is an NPOV problem here. Saying "shome thought i was unfortunate" is just woolly. -- Tarquin 00:02 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC)

Some of you thought it was "unfortunate"; some of us didn't. That makes two points of view. To be NPOV, you need to say who thought it was unfortunate. Nor is it "quite clear" to me why you think it was unfortunate -- do you mean if he had died the day after finishing filming the last one, he death would not have been unfortunate? That seems "a bit odd" to me. -- isis 07:35 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC)

I've just stumbled onto the page and into the 'unfortunate' death controversy. I honestly don't see the problem with the word in that context. The term 'unfortunate death' is regularly used world-wide among english-speakers. An unfortunate death means simply a premature death as in someone who for whatever reason (illness, accident, suicide, driven to despair by constant editing wars!!!) dies ahead of the supposed 'three score and ten' normal life span. It does not mean we are casting judgments (though bar Stalin, Hitler and some of the combatants in the New Imperialism Wiki War, few deaths would be judged fortunate, unless it was a release from pain, etc) Nor is it a POV except in the most technical, nit-picking manner. It is simply expressing in ordinary easily understood language, using a phrase used throughout the english-speaking world, that the man died prematurely, rather than living to old age. JTD 09:11 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC) 09:09 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC)

So according to you the death of the Queen Mum at 100+ was neither "premature" nor "unfortunate" because she did live well past 70, while Hitler's death was "premature" because he was only 56 but not "unfortunate" because of some reason that you don't think violates NPOV. What a crock. -- isis 10:20 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC)

I don't think use of the word "premature" or "unfortunate" in this context implies that his death is more premature or unfortunate than the queen mum's. The word's meaning in the context is focussed on the fact that his death prevented the ccompletion of a body of work.

I am concerned with the recent trend in crying "NPOV!" at the smallest trace of anything that isn't numerically quantified. Should we remove the mention of Mozart's "brilliance" too? -- Tarquin 10:47 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC)

I think Isis, you're so pre-occupied with absolute NPOV that even ordinary general terms in usage are falling foul. Unfortunate is the normal standard term that would be used. If the Queen Mum had died in an accident aged 101 it would be described as 'unfortunate' because otherwise she would have lived longer. But no-one would describe Hitler's death as 'unfortunate'. It is one thing to be 100% precise on complex terms like 'genocide' that needs precision. But making a whole debate about an ordinary term used about ordinary people by millions of ordinary people is NPOV gone mad. To use a term often said in Ireland, cop yourself on Isis. NPOV isn't about constructing a linguistic prison. It is about ensuring balance, using a straight-forward, generally used, widely accepted, universally understood colloqual term. Could we say we died in the prime of his life, or would you get all NPOV and argue 'how do you know it was the prime of his life? Can we talk about an 'oldest' child or will you start arguing 'how do we know they didn't have an earlier child that died? What about a child that was mis-carried? Come on Isis, be realistic. Have commonsense, not NPOV-mania. JTD 20:45 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC)

The "whole debate" is NOT "about an ordinary term used about ordinary people by millions of ordinary people". It's about a term used in an encyclopedia that makes a big deal about its NPOV. Yes, "unfortunate" is definitely a "colloqual" [sic] term Brett's fans might use for his dying before he filmed every last Conan Doyle Holmes story, but that's highly subjective and silly, too: What difference could it make whether he filmed any more of them? It isn't as if he's the first, last, or only actor to appear in them; does anyone sit watching him in one of them and think, "He would have been so much better in this performance if he had later filmed the rest"? Encyclopedia articles are not written in colloquial terms, and subjective feelings about one actor who played Holmes has no place in an article about the fictional character. (Fans who didn't even bother to make an article for that actor, BTW.)

Yes, Wikipedians regularly correct references to children to include even the possibility of other children who died too young for there to be a good record of them. Precision is just as important as accuracy in reporting facts. That's one of the main differences between writing an encyclopedia and writing greeting cards. And I think Hitler's death was "unfortunate", even if no one else does -- I wish the SOB had been captured alive for a number of reasons, including that we would be able to be sure when/that he did die. So consider how you'd feel if the Hitler article described his death as "unfortunate" -- that's how I feel when the Sherlock Holmes article describes Brett's death that way -- it sets my teeth on edge. (And how is my NPOV-mania any worse than your NPOV-phobia?) -- isis 01:53 Jan 20, 2003 (UTC)

Don't be so rude, arrogant and pompous, Isis. No one else has a problem. Everyone else is scratching their heads wondering what sort of pointless argument is it that Isis has started now. There is NO PROBLEM for the rest of the human race with that word. This is not Isispedia. This is wikipedia. If no one else has a problem, then the work is OK. If it sets your teeth on edge, get them fixed.

As for my supposed NPOV-phobia. I've spent weeks trying to fix POVs and remove them. But some times a little intelligence and cop-on is needed. Where you are dealing with words that need absolute clarity and neutrality, you have to be ultra-vigilant. But where you are dealing with a term everyone understands, which is not taken taken strictly literally by anyone but which conveys a meeting the entire human race (but Isis) grasps, then it is OK to use it. So the word stays, Isis. (And change the topic before this becomes on of those 'you believe what pointless argument 'so and so' started on Wikipedia today' moments, with people nicknaming you the 'unfortunate Isis' over it. Cop yourself on and go and correct the real problems that exist out there over real POVs, not imagining POVs when there are none. JTD 02:21 Jan 20, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks, I always wondered who it was that knew what everyone else in the human race was thinking, and now I know it's you. Shall I address you as "God" when/if I ask for your further guidance? -- isis 03:04 Jan 20, 2003 (UTC)

No, Isis. You simply listen to everyone else on the talk-page. Is that too difficult? Or is there an alternative reality you live in in which Isis is right and everyone else who says Isis is wrong really mean Isis is right. If everyone else is OK with it, you are in a minority and the consensus has formed around another viewpoint. That is what happened here, but maybe not in Isis-world. But Wiki isn't located in Isis-world, is it? Wait. let me check . . . yes. it still says 'Wikipedia' on my screen. What does it say on yours? (Anyway issue closed, bye) JTD 03:40 Jan 20, 2003 (UTC)

I'm back. Mintguy. Isis - I'm sorry for suggesting to you that Brett died of cancer. Though I never indicated that that was the cause of his death, I had believed (incorrectly) that he had been suffering with cancer. I got my facts garbled. His wife died of cancer, and Jeremy Brett went into depression. The medication he was prescibed for bipolar disorder (and his heavy smoking) exacerbated his heart condition and he was diagnosed with cardiomyopathy in 1995, he died in his sleep from heart failure. Mintguy

Did Holmes try cannabis as well as cocaine? -Adrian.