User talk:Ed Poor

Compliments

re: Talk/ Chomsky and anti-semitism: Well put, Ed. SR

Ed, the Ozone depletion article is looking pretty good. I think separating advocacy (of all sorts) was a smart move, and is a good way to proceed with similar topics. -D

I just wanted to leave a note of thanks to you for doing the "heaving lifting" of moving all the Middle-earth articles and fixing all the links in them. I know from experience just how time-consuming this process is since I did the same thing for the Star Wars articles and Star Trek articles. Your effects will be rewarded through increased contributions to the Middle-earth articles (as has been the case with the Star Wars and Star Trek articles). Now the next big push is to have all the The Simpsons articles moved. Argh... --mav

Thanks for fixing Taliban -- I spun off a couple of talk archives from Talk:Palestine for you. --mav

Criticisms and Contention

Ed Poor, the sources of the Global warming article were classified in Political and Scientific because Political sources were used for the political part of the article and Scientific sources were used for the scientific part of the article. I have told you this before, but you are ignoring this. I'm going to stop editing that article. user:Joao

Joao, I'm sorry I ignored your plan for the article. I thought it would be better to make it entirely scientific, and put the political aspects in global warming controversy -- which still needs much work. I need your help with that, as well as with global warming. Please give me your suggestions, and I will to try to cooperate on our common goal of improving the wikipedia. -- Ed

Ed: your unilateral decision to redirect the U.S. Attack on Afghanistan pages is upsetting. There was discussion about the naming of the page: see talk:2001 U.S. Attack on Afghanistan. I would have appreciated it greatly if you had discussed your arguments for changing the title before you redirected everything.

Please weigh in with your arguments for making such a change so that we may come to a consensus on this issue. Did you attempt to discuss this, and did I miss it?

Especially as there is a bug in the system which makes it very difficult to endo redirects, I really wish you hadn't done this unilaterally. We need to be able to trust and respect each other. --The Cunctator

Okay, I read the talk. I still disagree, but not enough to re-revert your reverts. --Ed

moving sex education and sexuality morality debate from "affronting" subpage. I started answering this, and frankly, Ed, I don't wish to waste any more time on you and your hobbyhorse. I'm not your lab rat, and nothing I say will change the fact that your a priori beliefs will not allow you to accept that others find many of the things you say are just bloody wrong.

Sounds like you disagree with some of the things I say. Oh, well. --Ed

Ed -- whatever. If you don't understand that:

setting up this page is in itself an affront (if only because it singles out one other user among the many who take exception to the way in which you operate);

Note that I moved it back to User talk:Ed Poor. Okay?

that, through your own actions and no one else's, you invite the debate you innocently claim not to want;

I'm not against debate; what made you think I was?

that you constantly insult anyone who disagrees with you by questioning the quality of their morals and by using terms like "liberal" as insults (and even people who would claim to be liberals might find the implications with which you load the term insulting);

Please point out a few of my alleged "constant insults", or else I must consider this an ad hominem argument.

Liberals, however, often have trouble following the NPOV policy. or any of your comments implying that we were confused and therefore under some evil influence...

that your entry immediately below this impugns the motives and good will of people who regularly contribute high-quality articles to the wikipedia and are known to regularly HELP to make articles NPOV;

I am unaware of impugning anyone's motives on wikipedia. Please explain why you think this -- or are you merely impugning MY motives (more ad hominem argument)?

Oh just stop it.

that your tone is incredibly, appalingly, patronizing, and dripping with an offensive (at least to me) implication that you are somehow an innocent victim of those nasty liberals, and all you want to do is contribute quality work and get along with others,

I am not going to stop bringing up good and true ideas. Complaints about the "tone" of discussion are probably a waste of time.

you have another think coming, Mr. Poor.

I can't speak for anyone else, but your recent apologetic (although still patronizing) tone does not for a minute convince me that this is not all going to happen again the next time you want to through up a deliberately inflammatory article on your views of "traditional" (by which you mean conservative Christians in the US) morality as applied to subject X. Oh -- and by the way, I understand that you believe that liberals try to undermine traditional morality -- but as this argument is pretty damned ad hominem itself (because you assume from the outset that traditional morality is the only legitimate morality) -- I just think that you are operating in a world in which you refuse to accept that you cannot dissociate yourself from your biases. J Hofmann Kemp

Dr. Kemp, feel free to put as much of the liberal (or anti-traditional or anti-convervative) point of view into the wikipedia as you wish. I ask only that you attribute these views. Can you agree to this? Ed Poor

What Dr. Kemp and some others seem not to understand is that liberals constantly try to undermine traditional morality, while claiming not to be doing so.

Ed, this statement is crap. The only way I can make sense of it is that you are mixing up two separate things. I suggest you take them separately, and respond to them thoughtfully.

I was speaking of liberals in general, not singling out anyone here. The liberal attack on morality consists chiefly of denying that there should be any morality at all, or of saying that no moral jugments should be made (except that judgments themselves are paradoxically judged as bad). --Ed

You are wrong. Please "attribute these views," as you have demanded numerous times. (By the way, although this is a digression from the matter at hand, I would like to suggest to you that it is the fact that you make sweeping remarks about "liberals," without attributing these remarks, and that you make claims about "conservatives" or "traditional" without providing any attribution, AND THEN you insist that your interlocutors provide attributions, that just might be one reason Dr. Kemp finds your tone and remarks often insulting and patronizing and disingenuous. I am of course speculating, and not trying to speak for her.) In any event, most liberals are highly moral, ant often moralistic and moralizing, people (even if you do not agree with their morality).

The first thing is what I will call procedural liberalism, although political scientists and political theorists might have another term for it. This is the notion that in a liberal (in the oldfashioned, non-partisan sense of modern democratic) state, individuals should be free to believe whatever they want and to act on their beliefs insofar as their actions do not impinge on the freedoms of others. I believe that there are many people on the political left who claim not to be undermining traditional morality per se when they argue that the US political and legal system must operate according to this principle.

Did you say the left? I thought that was a conservative viewpoint as well. --Ed

Maybe, but this isn't relevant to my observation. My observation was only meant to describe more accurately the position of many liberals, which you misrepresented. I have no doubt that there are non-liberals who would agree with this position.

IF you see their calls for pluralism and tolerance, and a political and legal process that acts on this principle (rather than the specific beliefs of a specific group) as "undermining traditional morality," THEN you need to confront the implication that "traditional morality" and "liberal democracy" (meaning, democracy that also ensures individual rights, i.e. the rule of the majority moderated by rule of law) are at odds.

That's not how I see it. I am a political conservative, and I believe that the government should not interfere with my religion as long as I don't harm anyone.

Not enough -- you must also be committed to the belief that government should not interfere with the beliefs of others (both religious and non-religious beliefs)

I believe in pluralism, not particularism (perhaps we should define these terms). I believe tolerance to a limited extent: I don't believe schoolchildren should be told that gay adoption and gay marriage is good in the name of tolerance.

Then you are intolerant, and also disingenuous to call yourself a political pluralist (n the sense I describe above) IF (and only if, and I admit that although this is the impression I have of your argument I might have misunderstood you) your opposition to gay adoption and gay marriage is derived from your religion. You have the right to your own beliefs, but they should not dictate public policy because "the public" includes people with very different beliefs. In any event, I think you misunderstand sex education AND oversimplify "good." There is a difference between saying that "gay marriage is good" and "since there are gays who have committed relationships, it is a good thing that they be allowed to marry." The reason I say this is because I am not so sure I think gay marriage is a good thing only because I am not so sure any marriage is a good thing; marriage may be a corrupt and immoral institution for all people. Nevertheless, if our society gives certain benefits to married couples and spouses, and allows heterosexual people to get married, then I am sure that it is a good thing that gay couples have a right to get married. There is also a difference between saying that something is good for some people, and saying that it is good for all people. For example, heterosexuality may be good for some people and I cannot object to heterosexual relationships. But it is clearly not good for all people and shouldn't be imposed or be given preference in public institutions.

I think tolerance, in a biology class, should extend to allowing students to dispute the scientific reasoning of Darwinists without repercussion or censorship.

I agree, as long as the questions and criticisms reflect a scientific perspective (namely, explaining natural phenomena through natural forces)

In other words, it may not be "liberals" who are undermining "traditional morality" but the whole notion of liberal democracy.

I think liberal democracy (if I have my terms right) is not undermining traditional morality, but liberals are using political power in the US to undermine it. I'm not sure what relevance this has to the sex education article, though.

But you must take seriously their claim that they are not seeking to "undermine traditional morality," rather they are trying to promote a society where you are free to live as you please, but so am I.

There is a difference between encouraging children to go against tradition, and allowing adults to make their own choices. Surely you see that. It is by telling children that they shouldn't let traditional sexual mores bind them that liberals make their attack on traditonal sexual mores. Should we teach children to make up their own mind on issues such as cheating on tests, or stealing?

Cheating on tests and stealing are dishonest and harm others; premarital sex and homosexuality are not necessarily dishonest or harmful, and certainly no more prone to dishonesty and harm than heterosexual sex within a marriage. So this is one reason why your analogy is false. But there is another, far more important reason why your analogy is false given the context of this discussion. Liberal democracy makes room for a host of different views. Most adults in our society agree that cheating and stealing are wrong. Even people who cheat and steal usually admit that what they did was wrong. There is more or less a societal consensus and it makes sense to promote this consensus in public schools. But there is no such consensus when it comes to sexual mores. Well, most people think bestiality and pedophilia are wrong, and most people (including people who have pre-marital sex or are gay) would not promote a value-free discussion of bestiality and pedophilia in publis schools. So maybe this is one are of consensus. But there is no similar consensus when it comes to pre-marital sex or homosexuality, so it is CRUCIAL that there be a value-free discussion of it in school. By value free I do not mean discussion various risks and difficulties (after all, there should be discussion of the risks and difficulties in heterosexual marriage too!) -- I just mean there should be no claim that something is "right" or "wrong." I do not see how any alternative is consistent with liberal democracy (in the limited and older sense we seem to agree on)

The second thing is "liberals" and others further on the political left who do indeed undermine "traditional morality" But here, the reason I take issue with what you wrote is that these people IN NO WAY claim NOT to do so.

I think you are in error here. You just told me that you must take seriously their claim that they are not seeking to "undermine traditional morality," Am I missing something, or did you just contradict yourself?

You are missing something, and it is the point I made in the beginning of this exchange -- to which you responded that "I was speaking of liberals in general." You completely miss my point, which is that you should NOT speak of "liberals in general" because you will end up obscuring the difference between two very different points of view. By calling both points of view "liberal" and by trying to find some LCD position, you will necessarily misrepresent them. And then when I say there are two different points of view you will think I am contradicting myself because you still think htere is only one point of view. But there isn't, there are two (at least two) and they indeed might contradict, but that is okay because they are held by different kinds of liberals! Here I am now discussing the second liberal position (indicated by my use of the word "second"). Above, when I wrote "you must take seriously their claim that they are not seeking to "undermine traditional morality," I was discussing the first position (indicated by my use of the word "first"). These are two positions, and to repeat myself, your problem is that you do not separate them. Don'e keep making the mistake by trying to keep combining them!

On the contrary, they are explicit in criticizing "traditional morality" as racist and/or classist and/or sexist and/or something else (depends on who the critic is and what they are criticizing) but in any event as something profoundly IMMORAL, and they are proposing a different morality.

Branding something as "immoral" is a form of opposition. I can only conclude that they oppose traditional morality. This should be in the article.

Okay -- but what you actually wrote was NOT that they were opposed to "traditional morality," but that tey were opposed to "morality." Don't you see my point? It seems pretty simple -- these are just two different things, and it is wrong, both factually and morally, to conflate the two in this discussion.

These are two different things, although perhaps they have in common the fact that you do not like them. I don't like olives and I don't like ham, but I don't mix the two things up. I admit that mixing up ham and olives is pretty trivial and innocuous (unless you work at a deli). But mixing up people who consider "traditional values" to be immoral, with people who promote a liberal democracy, is dangerous because it clouds very serious social and political issues while, as is clearly the case here, gravely (and I think ultimately unnecessarily -- if your intention Ed is indeed not to offend but something else) offending someone. SR

If I have mixed up "liberals" (as in liberals vs. conservatives) with "liberal" (as in liberal democracy), it was unintentional. I support liberal democracy (if I understand you correctly) while opposing liberalism. Conservatives are for democracy and traditional morality, broadly speaking -- while liberals are for increased state control and oppose traditional morality. If I am wrong, please correct me.

Some conservatives are for increased state control over some domains, some liberals are for increased state control over other domains. The way you wrote it is too vague to be accurate let alone informative. Many (but not all, I think) liberals would see any sort of sex-eduation that has a bias towards heterosexuality or marriage to reflect an unfair form of state interference into people's private lives (meaning, it should be up to the private individual to decide whether to come out of the closet or not, to have sex before or during marriage, etc. State institutions such a schools should be value-neutral in this regard or they are just increasing their control over peoples lives, as you put it). As Danile andothers have pointed out, it is not clear that what you call "traditional morality" is really traditional. But yes, liberals and conservates often disagree over what is moral. But what YOU wrote was that liberals were opposed to morality itself. That was wrong and I cannot believe you didn't know it was wrong, it seems so obviously wrong to me.

Note to SR: we have had some sharp disagreements, but I seem to recall that we've generally come to some sort of working consensus each time.

Well, I hope my comments here help further that possibility! SR

To be NPOV, the wikipedia needs to attribute views to their proponents, not state them as facts. Larry has said this repeatedly, and I agree with him.

Liberals, however, often have trouble following the NPOV policy. Although I hesitate to speculate about the motives of people I haven't spoken with in person, it may be either a conscious or unconscious attempt to win debating points on their part. Be that as it may, I have no wish to engage in ad hominem arguments. I will leave that to others, if they enjoy it.

My proposal, for those who are interested, is that we all focus on improving articles which we know something about and care about. No one is forced to contribute, and no one's words are immune to merciless revision. Generally, if other contributors repeatedly delete my contributions, I choose not to retaliate (an eye for an eye makes us both blind). But the difficulty of adhering to NPOV knows no ideological bounds, and sometimes I fall short of the mark. I really do appreciate the help I get from others.

I do make a practice of being open about my motivations. I think it saves time to tell the truth, as Mr. Kiku said in Heinlein's "The Star Beast". I hope others will be equally open, but I do not think it's nearly as important as remembering to attribute views to their proponents. --Ed

I moved this debate with Dr. Kemp, who is mischaracterizing me so consistently I can only question her sincerity. -- Ed

No need to question, Ed. I'm entirely sincere in everything I've said. It is not a mischaracterization, because I've only stated the impressions I have based on what you've said. Oh -- and I didn't actually call you the representative of good -- merely pointed out that you seemed to have given yourself this role. You must have been confused. J Hofmann Kemp

It seems confusion is our mutual enemy. If we agree on this at least, perhaps it can give us something to build on. --Ed

Hi, Ed! -- Welcome back. I notice you are again starting articles on which you cannot be neutral, and I have to ask, WHY???? By the way, I went to school in California when the schools were ranked highest in the country. They were well funded, and fairly liberal. My sex education classes ranged from basic anatomy (you're going to get your period, girls) to encouraging a healthy attitude towards accepting our bodies and sexuality. Birth control was discussed, but the teachers always claimed that abstinence was the best method of birth control and that sex was not a substitute for liking yourself. Byt the time I was a senior in high school, we also discussed STDs and, the day before Senior Prom, my biology teacher brought in some ex-students who worked at planned parenthood, who demonstrated how to put on a condom without breaking it. Some people surreptitiously palmed a couple of condoms for later, but most of us just laughed and filed the info away for future reference. At no time were we pushed to "accept immoral practices". We were, however, taught that some people, for whatever reason, were gay, and that, even if we found it an immoral practice, we lived in a country where it was legal to be gay, and it was wrong to attack people (verbally or physically) because of it. I'm sure sex ed has changed -- i'll have to ask my daughter. But really...could you please not write articles if you know in advance you can't be neutral? J Hofmann Kemp

In the battle between good and evil, the mere failure to condemn evil is the precise equivalent of accepting it. Education which promotes a "non-judgmental attitude" toward something thus pushes students to accept it. I refuse to be neutral: I oppose evil. However, I have agreed to write from an NPOV when contributing to the wikipedia. I will still call a spade a spade, but in cases where many others want to call it a diamond I will try to indicate a source for its identification as a spade. Fair enough? --Ed Poor

You oppose what you consider to be evil and many other people consider to be good. And that's just fine, but advocacy like that does not belong into an encyclopedia. AxelBoldt

If you think that way, perhaps you are evil. Beware. --your friend, Ed Poor

If you think that way, perhaps you also believe that encyclopedias are evil. Conundrum. Olof

No, Olof, I don't think encyclopedias are evil. Assembling human knowledge is a worthy goal. However, forcing children to accept immorality is evil. Calling this force "non-judgmental" does not make it good. --Ed Poor

QED Olof

Ed, I hardly think that believing in free will and that man was granted the ability to reason and make choices can be construed as evil. As usual, you are oversimplifying the argument and condemning others who disagree. Whether or not you like it, not even all Christians believe the same thing (or at least not all to the same degree) when it comes to sexual mores. Your "traditional" does not make it the only viewpoint, and is certainly not the only moral one, nor does it represent the views of all religions and cultures. It's insulting and arrogant for you to claim that you are somehow the representative of good vs. evil, and those of us who wish for a balanced article that includes information with which you don't agree represent some corrupting force. J Hofmann Kemp

You sound a bit confused. That's natural, because evil's best weapon is confusion. Let me give you a bit of guidance.

Well, that's one of the most patronizing and offensive statements yet. I'm not at all confused, Ed. Nor do I accept your implication that I am somehow confused because I am under the influence of evil. How dare you reduce a debate on the presentation of information in a neutral, inclusive, and objective style to Ed = good, people who think Ed can't be objective = confused or under some evil influence?

I agree with you that believing in free will and that man was granted the ability to reason and make choices can not be construed as evil. You seem to think I believe otherwise, although you don't say way.

I think you believe otherwise because you have consistently negated arguments of people who discuss using reason to make moral decisions, absent a membership in a social group that follows what you so blithely (and incorrectly) call traditional morality. If this is not what you mean, perhaps you should write more clearly.

If there is indeed, as you seem to suggest, an argument which should not be simplified, please delineate its complexity in the article. I will be happy to read your contribution.

Ed, one of my objections is that almost all of your contributions start out as this one has. To wit: Ed places a very non-NPOV stub on the site; immediately, many people jump in to try to add to and neutralize the content; Ed takes offense and sparks major debate over morality; Ed answers objections on NPOV, etc., with something like, "please delineate its complexity in the article. I will be happy to read your contribution" -- implying that you have some type of editorial rights that the rest of us don't.
Have you not realized that: 1)you are not the arbiter of what goes into an article, and 2)you are abusing the time and efforts of others by working in this fashion? Understand that I call abuse because you depend upon people who care about the quality of the content on the site to jump in and contribute to subjects they may not have wanted to write on, but feel obligated because they care about the project. It's really inconsiderate and (based on my own experience and the inferences I've drawn from that experience) manipulative of you. Your methods force others to do the bulk of the work while you take advantage of the evangelical opportunities that always arise from the debate on "traditional" morality -- traditional in quotes because I know right-wing, Rush limbaugh Republicans who would disagree with you -- not to mention tons of other people who are very moral.

I condemn no one, except those who deliberately choose evil. Axel implied that I shouldn't oppose evil. If he's really saying that, I repeat that he should beware: refusing to oppose evil lets it triumph (as Edmund Burke or someone said).

As above -- you imply that those of us who argue with you about the characteristics of morality are somehow of lesser mental capacity, moral worth, and/or influenced by evil -- it's offensive and likely untrue.

Don't put words in my mouth. I said that you are welcome to oppose what you consider evil and advocate for what you consider good, just like I do, but not on Wikipedia. This is not a space to advocate viewpoints. Do it on your website, on Usenet, write letters to the editor, whatever. Your goal in contributing to Wikipedia, quite obviously, is not to create a good encyclopedia, but to sneak in your point of view. By doing that, you suck time out of the rest of us. AxelBoldt

I agree that the traditional viewpoint is not the only one. If there's another one you'd like to see in the articl, please add it. Perhaps you could even describe variations within the traditional viewpoint.

As above, buddy. You started the article -- it's your responsibility to do your best to present other viewpoints as well. Otherwise, you're not really a contributer -- just a gadfly who doesn't respect the time of other Wikipedians.

If there are other opinions about what is "moral", please describe these, too, and say who advances these opinions.

As above -- and don't be disingenuous -- it's insulting.

I am not the world's leading advocate of goodness, but that should be no bar to contributing ideas about goodness vs. evil to the wikipedia. You do it, yourself.

Perhaps on talk pages, but my article writing is based in a career of scholarship, which demands objectivity.

Your biggest mistake, would be to think that I don't want a balanced article. Is this what you really think? Come on, now, what would make you think I opposed balance and NPOV? I have no objection whatsoever to "including information with which I don't agree" -- it must merely be labeled correctly as to who believes it, in accordance with NPOV policy.

Ed, what I believe about you is that you are deliberately creating situations like this to make yourself feel important and perhaps even more comfortable with your own moral choices. Moreover, I believe that you are trying to use these pages to evangelize others on the truth as seen by the Unification church, but in a fairly subtle way. I believe that you don't have the ability to write a fair and balanced article, but would like to think of yourself as some kind of arbiter of what information belongs in that article -- thereby boosting your own importance in your own little world. I believe that you are so wrapped up in your little control games that you do not feel obliged to treat the rest of us as colleagues -- in short, the traditional virtue of charity and the Christian tradition of the Golden Rule seem to be absent from your wikipedia life. Those are some of the nicer things I believe about you, Ed.

The straight (but not narrow), happily married, Christian, environmentalist, Feminist, Mrs. Dr. J Hofmann Kemp

I hoped I had cleared up any false impression Dr. Kemp may have formed of me, but plainly I have failed. Nevertheless, i still would like us cooperate to make the Wikipedia comprehensive, accurate, and neutral (in the NPOV sense). -- Ed

After giving this a lot of thought, I am going to take a radical point of view here and say that any piece that assumes "morality" cannot, by nature, be NPOV. Morality in general is a cultural construct, deeply rooted in Western society, but not necessarily existent among other cultures. That is not to say that other cultures do not have concepts of right and wrong or good and evil--rather, it claims that morality is a third construct. For instance, the Jewish religion forbids its adherents from eating pork. Eating pork can therefore be classified as a "wrong" act or even as a sin. However, no Jew would say that the act is inherently immoral. It simply falls within the confines of certain strictures. In a similar sense, other religions and cultures will use terms such as 'pure and impure,' 'allowed and forbidden,' etc. This does not imply morality. Following these same lines, I would argue that certain religions might forbid certain sexual activities. That does not imply that the activities are necessarily immoral, just that they are forbidden. By using terms such as "traditional morality," we are imposing a set of values on others. By talking about the 'morality' of premarital sex or homosexuality, we are doing the same. If we do choose to use the term morality, I vote that we qualify it to show specifically whose morality it is. Oh, and I don't buy the liberal and conservative distinctions that have been used either. There are NOT two sides to this issue: there is a spectrum of opinions. Are Log Cabin Republicans really liberals? Danny

Some religions consider certain actions immoral, and therefore they forbid them. When we write about this in the wikipedia, we should say: Adherents of religion X consider action Y to be immoral. Agreed? --Ed

Not agreed unless you specify exactly which religions. And in that case, do not make sweeping generalizations. You might say that a certain Christian group considers a specific act immoral, but you cannot speak for all of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Shinto, Hinduism, or any other religion. Danny

Ditto. --maveric149

Ditto ditto. NEVER speak in absolutes! ;-) user:David Merrill

All rules should be applied in moderation. --Ed Poor

Danny, you make a good suggestion. I will do my best to follow it. Please help me separate the bristles of the broom when I make a sweeping generalization, lest someone vacuum up the whole mess!! --Ed

Ed, perhaps I can explain to you one reason why you sometimes get very negative reactions from others - using, as an example, the discussion on talk:Ultraviolet. I went to Yahoo! and typed in, "Ultraviolet radiation causes skin cancer". One of the first two hits is a Scientific American article,

http://www.sciam.com/0996issue/0796leffell.html

which gives a summation of the situation in terms that a layman can easily understand. Further, it gives references to back up the science it reports.

Now, you, Ed, did not do the two minutes work it would have taken you to find that article. Without doing that two minutes of work, you deleted someone else's perfectly valid statement to that effect. Then you demanded that other people do the work to back up the contention you deleted, and were... less than helpful... when they obliged by checking on it for you. If this had been the only such incident, it might have been simply passed over; however, I'm noticing several such incidents from you per day.

Furthermore, as JHK rightly points out, you only demand "scientific sources" from others when those others contradict your view. You are not, I notice, in the habit of copiously documenting your own work, and freely litter Wikipedia with your opinions. You are, in other words, maintaining a double standard, even if you don't realize it. It's not at all surprising that this draws you very negative responses. May I suggest that in the future, if you question the science behind an assertion, you yourself check up on the scientific articles available on the topic before making any changes whatsoever to another's work? -- April

Ed, your "solution" to the cognitive science of mathematics problem is simply unacceptable. It ought to be clear from the long introduction of that article that Lakoff & Nunez are part of a quite long tradition in cognitive sciences back to Tversky & Kahneman claiming to put foundations (from human cognitive structures) under math. T&K started it with their "statistical biases in human thinking" in the 1960s.

Also, the L&N thesis has been accepted as a grounding by most noted mathematicians - in the long list of reviews there was literally no objection to their assertions regarding Euler's Identity... none. Zero. This is not a flaky guess by Lakoff, it's a whole field now.

Lakoff himself needs a completely separate article due to his involvement in the political sciences, "terrorism debate", etc., etc...

And Nunez ought not to be simply lumped in as a clone of Lakoff, a "follower" - his work is interesting in itself.

I believe your objections to this work are political and we should settle it politically by deciding how to chunk this, rather than with mindless redirects.

You simply don't want to see what I will do to "falsifiability" and references to "Karl Popper" if the debate goes off in this direction.

Ed, if by 'truce' you mean that you will cease and desist in your singling out any one user (e.g. me) from personal attacks, direct, indirect or implied, I accept your offer. Since I have never called you names, impugned your morality, or in fact made any accusation against you except that you seem to have a penchant for creating articles in a way that encourages discussion in which you can push your own agenda (my own opinion, but one occasionally supported by others), and since it has been weeks since I have even taken the time to edit any of your contributions, however, I hardly think truce (which implies mutual hostility between parties) is the proper word. Perhaps you just mean "I'm sorry, I was out of line and it won't happen again"? J Hofmann Kemp, Monday, April 15, 2002

To Danny, RK, SR, etc. re: homosexuality...

In response to all of you, I have redoubled my efforts to distinguish between:

my own strong opinions about morality, and
high-quality, NPOV contributions to the Wikipedia

I'm still not sure why this should be so difficult for me. The formula, A said B about C, which I so frequently recommend to others, comes to mind in this context. Hmm.

Anyway, even if we disagree sharply amongst each other, we all seem to be dedicated to NPOV "writing", when it comes to 'pedia articles. I've adopted a new rhythm of pondering a thorny subject for a week or more, and then writing several paragraphs in one short session. Then, I await comments from my co-contributors. Upon reading them, I either immediately adopt their suggestions or gaze in rapt silence at their edits to my (brilliant?) prose and go away to ponder for another lengthy period.

I think this works better, after all the goal is not to win a debate but to contribute articles of lasting value. Ed Poor

Ed: This is an encyclopedia, not an anthology of religious poetry. I don't know whether we're legally in the clear on the Sun Myung Moon poem, or the poem cited as found on a wall at Mother Teresa's, but even if we are, they don't belong here, any more than a sermon written by a noted poety when she was a teen would. (I'm putting this note in your talk and mine, and will wait a little while before deleting these items.) Vicki Rosenzweig

Ed,

Ed, the term “Global Warming Hypothesis” is incorrect. You’ve stated yourself that global temperature changes are a natural part of life here on Earth – global warming is part of that. There is absolutely no credible opposition to the finding that surface temperatures have increased significantly over the past 100 years and continue to do so today. The preponderance of evidence (many would say beyond a reasonable doubt evidence) also indicates that most of this warming is caused by human activity. You keep citing NASA satellite data and seem to present this is proof that the above is incorrect (at least that is my impression). Those data attack the validity of the computer models incorrect prediction of upper atmospheric temperature and not the fact that surface temperatures continue to rise (the computer models have been good at predicting surface temperatures BTW). I just read a story about a small town in Alaska that has experienced a 7 degree F temperature increase since the 1970s, I’ve also read that alpine glaciers around the world are melting at dramatic rates – there is no controversy over the temperature increase (global warming hits the polar areas disproportionately severely). The only real question is what will happen in the future. If current trends in the increase of average surface temperatures increase (no matter what the cause) then we are in trouble. Please stop playing up the satellite data as if it disproves everything the IPCC has done – it just questions the accuracy of the how current climate models predict upper-atmospheric temperatures and this is all that should be placed in the article (these models will advance as computer technology does – ocean-related and cloud-cover effects have only recently been added in the last couple of years). --maveric149

some old talk, from user:Ed Poor

Ed, I was impressed with your ability to compromise in various articles (specifically in the case of [Irreducible complexity]]. However, I have one suggestion. If you want to start an article, ask yourself if you are doing it to present a moral viewpoint or to provide a NPOV. If you are doing it to point out your version of morality/immorality, then it isn't in the spirit of the Wikipedia. It is not fair to say, "Well, if people think it's not NPOV, they can merely add to it." People who might be qualified to edit the article might not ever notice it. Contributors should attempt to be NPOV from the start. If you're doing it to point out an opposing viewpoint in a factual manner, on a topic that needs it, then go ahead. The only reason I point this out is your Summary field in a couple of your recent topics seems to indicate that you're writing the articles because you want to present a moral viewpoint, not because you want to present a NPOV (link to a site promoting immorality in teens; teens can make wise decisions??). My two cents. --Rgamble

I think I've been pretty open about my intentions from the start. There is nothing "subtle" about my approach, Dr. Kemp's opinion notwithstanding.

I want to ensure that good and true points of view are included in the Wikipedia. It's as simple as that.

Now, I realize that Larry and Jimbo have an NPOV policy, and I applaud that. It's actually quite necessary, lest he who speaks loudest and longest win each debate. It's rather daring of them to permit such near-anarchy.

It's true that I sometimes (often?) forget to qualify my contributions. I'm a terrible writer, I admit it. Yet it's rare for anything I've contributed to be really need to be deleted from an article; it just needs proper wording.

Perhaps it's inherently hard for authors to be their own editors. Other wikipedians have asked me for advice on how to attain NPOV, and I've been thanked repeatedly for finding NPOV solutions to apparently intractable raging feuds. (Remember Bible Stories?) I ask you all to return the favor, as needed. -- Ed Poor

I agree with Rgamble on the general principle - but others are far worse at this than Ed. But we all need to be reminded once in a while that we must rise above our personal feelings on a subject and present it fairly. That is not to say the we should include every idiosyncratic line of reasoning - all it means is that we must include good arguments on the most prevalent viewpoints on an issue. For example, it would be ridculous to include anything more than a single sentence on flat-earthers on an article about the earth. --maveric149~

To clarify, I do not mean to say that I think Ed is a terrible writer, nor do I believe he is not a good contributor to the Wikipedia. I merely wanted to point out that if he is worried himself about not always putting forth a NPOV (and he does seem to state this in previous comments) that he should merely ask himself (as I do also when I write an article) whether it's to provide factual information or another viewpoint about something, or whether it's to promote or sway others to a moral viewpoint. Subtle distinction but I think if a Summary indicates strongly that the writer feels the item being discussed is immoral, then it's not being written strictly to provide a NPOV. Just a suggestion, and one I follow myself. --Rgamble

Ed, since you changed interval to interval (mathematics), could you please change all the links pointing to interval from the math pages to interval (mathematics)? AxelBoldt, Monday, April 15, 2002

It's April 17, and I have completed the correction. I don't think Ed has contributed a single link change... (sigh) -- Miguel

--- Ed, the country is called The Gambia. You really shouldn't move it to Gambia even if most links do point there. It's like moving an article on existence to existance just because most links point there. The links are wrong not the article title. -- Derek Ross

How do you bock a user? I don't think it is possible yet (esp. for another sysop). --mav

Meet me on wikipedia-l Ed Poor

Ed, lemme know which Bible articles were deleted. I would be happy to try and reconstruct them, perhaps even with a more contemporary twist. Danny

you are welcome! But I do not think you or I or really anyone else needs to slow down on their edits; I think there is an important and big difference between editing a page and deleting a page. Also, I think it is clear that whatever our differences, you, I and others approach editing with the same spirit of respecting other people's views and also subordinating our own egos to the success of the project as a whole. This is an important example to set for others, and if anything, editing less could undermine that lesson! Slrubenstein

Old General Talk

I forgot how easy it was to log in today (3/11/02), when using my notebook computer (instead of my usual desktop). Thanks to JHK for pointing out my (inadvertent) anonymity. --Ed

Ed -- FYI, subpages no longer exist. Slashes don't mean anything special. You're actually just creating new user pages within the User: namespace, i.e., there are now users named Ed Poor/unkempt and Ed Poor/Dr Kemp -- with their own associated pages in the User talk: namespace.

Hi Ed, Just to say (for the avoidance of doubt) that I have no desire to disparage anyone's church - I just thought that 'Moonie' conveys 'Unification Church' to most people, not Lewis Moonie -- redirects from disparaging terms could become a vexed issue -- perhaps there needs to be a Wikipedia policy on this? -- The Anome

I forgot: the original Moonies article is plural, as in, "The Moonies bought the New Yorker Hotel in the 1970s." Sometimes I'm not good at searching: I thought content had been removed from Moonie, but that was just the singular form. Maybe this is why editors get paid the big bucks! --Ed

Fixed up: Moonie now points to your Moonies page. I've linked perjorative term it it. The Anome

There is an orphan article Ed Poor/origins with nothing more than a reference back to you. Since orphaned origins seem to question your paternity, you should clearly have the first opportunity to deal with the article. Eclecticology, Thursday, April 25, 2002

I just got the impression you might know who I am :) and am wondering how anonymous my pseudonym is. Any thoughts?

-- Ark

Ed, thanks for the bug report, but it didn't contain the information I needed to diagnose it, such as what you were searching for and what the actual error was. If you can reproduce the problem (once I get the site back online soon), I would greatly appreciate it. --LDC

Answering question about deletion of articles: The simplest way is to pick "vote for deletion", explain why (as above), and wait for a sysop to do it. On straightforward stuff like that, we're usually pretty quick to respond. Vicki Rosenzweig 05:46 Jul 23, 2002 (PDT)

Sorry, there's no longer any "vote" links. Magnus added that feature on a whim, and I removed it on a whim. We need to discuss it more on the list before we decide to implement something permanent. While you're in the process of renaming all the Middle-earth articles, Ed, you should know about a new feature of the Phase III software: if you're on a page that has a context in parentheses (e.g., "Sting (Middle-earth)"), a link in the form [[|Mordor]] (note the leading pipe) will be automatically expanded into ;;[[Mordor (Middle-earth)|Mordor]]. Likewise, a link like [[Sting (Middle-earth)|]] (trailing pipe) on any page will be replaced with [[Sting (Middle-earth)|Sting]]. --LDC

Thanks, Lee. That should speed up the moving process. :-) --Ed

Thanks for the welcome, Ed. I've been here awhile, watching you walking that tightrope. I'm walking on it from the left end and I know how hard it is to do. It's interesting, but I don't think we'll ever really collide if we keep doing this. I did leave a question for you in [[Talk::Huckleberry Finn]] that I don't think you saw.

I laid this quotation from Sidney Hook on mav a few weeks back. You might find it inspiring or useful: "Before impugning an opponent's motives, even when they legitimately may be impugned, answer his arguments."

I also tried to fix a markup bug back up there somewhere that was putting the whole end of this page into bold but then it all became italics Sorry. I stuck a couple of apostrophes at the start of this entry to fix my own contribution, but you've got another couple of stray apostrophes somewhere back there that are causing the problem. If you bother to fix it, please remove the two apostrophes at the beginning of this too.

Ortolan88 09:55 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

I like that Sidney Hook one-liner. I'll take a look at Huck. Ed Poor

From talk:Noam Chomsky:

Dan, thanks for adding the following:

Chomsky focuses his most intense criticism on official friends of the United States government while criticizing official enemies like the former Soviet Union and the North Vietnamese Army? only in passing. He explains this by the following principle: it is more important to evaluate actions which you have more possibility of affecting. It explains something I always found bewildering. Ed Poor

Glad to be of use. :) djk

You said: "Calm, down, Mav. Maybe Helga just needs help learning how to NPOVify. Ed Poor"

Well JHK, Space Cadet, Roadrunner, Michael Tinkler me and others have been trying to "teach" her the correct way to do things for some time now. Before she just vastly annoyed us by creating banal articles about the third cousins and door maids of famous historical people, now she she seems to be on a POV tirade. I have to credit you with trying to moderate your posts but she doesn't try to even make her posts sound neutral. Maybe it is the language barrier so I will not be as rude to her for now at least. --mav

Yes, even I have been known to respond better to honey than to vinegar. We might also recall the contest between the Sun and the Wind to get the traveler's coat off (Aesop's fables). BTW, why doesn't she log in? I'd love to click on her User Contributions link. --Ed Poor

Hi, Ed. I am glad you liked my contributions to the Palestinian conflict. I agree with you that it is wrong for Wikipedia to take a pro-Israeli stance (though it should obviously not be anti-Israeli either, but rather neutral). Unfortunately, Uri Yanover reversed every single one of the contributions (as usual). /Aloha

I'm sorry if your contributions are being reversed. If you need help making sure that your contributions stick, please ask. I've become quite skilled at contributing to controversial subjects, even when disagreeing with the website admins. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. --Ed Poor

I disagree. A number of people maintain a de facto pro-Israeli policy. /Aloha

Ed, I need your help with some version control. 203.91.132.14 made some "minor" edits to the Taliban article which were really an attempt to delete a lot of material from that article. I actually agree with some of the deletions because they were American POV but some other stuff was good material. I have therefore blocked this IP. However, that leaves both of us with some version control to do. Please see [1] and [2] for an idea of what was deleted and [3] for an idea of what was added (some of which I would like to use). --mav

It's futile for us Wikipedians to assert the "truth" of any issue. All we can do is point out what has been said by various parties. I disagree with almost everything Karl Marx said, but I can still tolerate an article that says, "According to Marx, the capitalist necessarily exploits the laborer; therefore, the working class is justified in expropriating the factories of the rich." It's not the article I disagree with, it's Marx. The article has correctly characterized Marx's views. The most I can or ought to do to register my discontent is to quote some other economist or social theorist, say, a free market advocate who waxes ecstatic while extolling the virtues of investment and profit. --Ed

Hello, again, Ed. As for "vociferous," there is a quote by Eastland I think might make my case: http://www.flakmag.com/books/senate7.html . Sorry, but I won't even post it here. Danny

Ed, per your "linkfix" on the Iraq article: I didn't fix those because all links are redirected anyway. When the Iraq article is done over at some point, it should all change. Out of some sort of laziness, I'm not changing them now. Sorry. Jeronimo 06:06 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)

Okay, I'll butt out.

Ed, The pictures I submitted on the Chico and the Man article, except the title shot, were offered on Ebay at one time or another. All are found on other websites as well. I guess, being a newbee, I thought they were in the public domain, but maybe not. If you find out otherwise, please let me know and I will remove them. I certainly don't want to get this site in to trouble. It is a wonderful place. Luckymama58

Ed, before that book by Iris Chang was published, Rape of Nanking only means rapes of women during the 2 months of atrocities inside the city but the book used the term for referring to the Nanjing Massacre. Such a use is acceptable. In other words, the term means only part of atrocities before the publish and the book generalized to the whole massacre. -- Ktsquare

Ed, check out Sons of Noah. I still think it is highly irrelevant and overly specialized and would delete the whole damn thing. Danny

Ed --

just now noticed you'd put a note up on my page (strangely enought, i never put a watch on it!). Thank you very much for the apology -- it goes a long way. just wanted to let you know that I wasn't ignoring you out of hard feelings -- just hadn't been paying much attention ;-) Take care -- JHK

Ed, I think that many (but by no means all!) of the pages that you've been deleting should be left as redirects. The most extreme example is Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. If I were writing an article that referred to the Mormons, then this is how I'd link their church, since I don't realise that the correct capitalisation is "Latter-day". Now, I know enough to realise that we must have an article on them; so when it turns up blank, I'll do a search and learn better spelling — great. But many other contributors will just assume that we don't have an article on it yet and go on. The redirect means that people will find the article, and it will say right under the title that a redierct happened, so that they can fix the spelling of the link if they wish. (There's also an idea for a #DEPRECATED redirect command that will create a more noticeable reminder.) Thoughts? — Toby 01:53 Aug 15, 2002 (PDT)

debate here moved to incest taboo/talk

Hum, I'm not sure if Doug has a userpage - I can't find it if he does. I also don't know if he knows how to use meta -- although in this case I don't think it really will be needed. I think it will be possible to infuse the RS of T article with enough NPOV to make it obvious to non-scientists that RS of T is considered to be quackpotery by the vast majority of the scientific community. I've already worked on the introduction section and found it relatively easy to qualify the RS statements -- which are mostly shallow.

For example, the statement trying to legitimize RS of T by saying that "The International Society of Unified Science" promotes the ideas of RS of T -- well a little digging uncovered that advocating RS of T is the only thing they were formed to do and this is their only stated goal. And of course there are the two assumptions that the entire "system of theory" depends upon -- the first is easily enough qualified by stating that there is no scientific, mathematical or logical basis to assume the universe is composed of only motion. This in fact is a fatal flaw of this "system of theory" -- even though RS of T supposedly is able to make some predictions based on this. Hell, give me the answer to a calculus equation and I can rig a way to come up with an answer that will only work for that special case. Science doesn't work this way. It might also be good to note that the type of assumptions made should not be compared or confused with valid mathematical postulates, which are starting points that must themselves be logical or in some way self-evident (such as assuming that the concept of zero - nothing - exists at least in a mathematical sense, or that the two right angles in _|_ are equal and are 90°).

My plan all along was to use the talk and old talk of the article as resources of what critics are saying, do a little Googling to find out more in-depth criticism and compare RS of T to what my Physics textbook says. I wouldn't give up on this just yet -- I'm sure a little Googling will yield what you need. --maveric149

How did you do that trick with the ISBns on the Nigger page? -- Zoe

You make a ISBN 2983492837 link by typing ISBN 2983492837 --Ed

Thanks, Ed. I've been doing it slowly. So far about a dozen random presidents have them. I just wish the articles had more info. Danny

Hi, Ed. I am glad you liked my contributions to the Palestinian conflict. I agree with you that it is wrong for Wikipedia to take a pro-Israeli stance (though it should obviously not be anti-Israeli either, but rather neutral). Unfortunately, Uri Yanover reversed every single one of the contributions (as usual). /Aloha

You know, I typed "Charlie and" first, and then doubted it, and checked the IMDb and thought I must have been wrong. Thanks for catching that. --KQ

Fresh comments below

Hi Ed. Using the term "occupied territories" when referring to the occupied territories is in fact considered neutral outside the Israeli extreme right, Americas extreme Christian conservatives and areas controlled by them, such as Wikipedia. Read for instance this article from the world renowned Jewish weekly "The Forward" [4].

-Q.

Q, that is exactly my point: right-wingers in Israel and America don't regard them as "occupied", while you and other significant groups do. So, to avoid taking sides a Wikipedia article should either use a neutral term (like West Bank) or some language which attributes the point of view to its advocate. Something like, most Arabs regard West Bank and Gaza as "occupied territories". --Ed

What? I am neither Christian nor conservative and object to any statement that Wikipedia is controlled by these two groups. --mav

Yeah, that's a particularly stupid comment. The two folks with the most physical "control" over wikipedia at the moment are Jimbo and me, since he owns the server and I maintain the software, and we're both atheists; Jimbo is an Objectivist and I'm a libertarian. And the folks with the most influence on content are folks like you and KQ, neither of whom I brand as "conservative". Such comments are instructive though, as I will now know how seriously to take Q's comments in the future. --LDC

Lee, please be polite to Q. Many of his contributions look pretty good to me. --Ed Poor

More to the point, I read the article Q cited above, and it makes several good points -- but it draws a non sequitur conclusion. Here is the part that makes sense to me, which is about the term occupied territories to designate West Bank and Gaza Strip (I have put some parts in bold):

Is there any point to Rumsfeld's objection to this term? Technically, there may well be. An occupying power is by definition a power in occupation of somebody else's land, and the fact is that, in terms of international law, neither the Gaza Strip nor the West Bank clearly belong to anyone. Although they were assigned by the United Nations to a Palestinian state in its 1947 partition resolution, this was a state the Palestinians themselves rejected, and subsequently, after remaining in Arab hands in the 1948 war, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank had different fates. The former was administered but never annexed by Egypt, while Jordan's annexation of the latter went unrecognized by much of the world and was officially renounced by Jordan itself in 1988. Nor was anything changed by the 1993 Oslo Accord, which simply committed the parties to it — Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization — to negotiate the future of "the territories" between them.

Q, it seems to me that significant groups of people are in dispute over who "owns" the WB and GS. The article you asked me to read says that "neither ... clearly belongs to anyone". So I think we have to REPORT to our readers that there is a dispute: some regard Tibet as occupied; some regard all of North America as occupied; nearly all Arabs regard Gaza and WB as occupied.

If we call them "occupied territories", it means that the Wikipedia agrees with the point of view of those who assert that Israel is "a power in occupation of somebody else's land". Should the Wikipedia AGREE with this POV, or just REPORT that certain people advocate this POV? --Ed Poor

However, Ed, if there are two views, one held by a few extremists and the rest held by everybody else, then is there an obligation to accomodate the minority view or to present the major view and then to make a note that there is some dissent from American and Israeli zionists? The fact is that the overwhelming legal opinion is that the fourth geneva convention does apply and that Israel is an "occupying power." See, for example, B'Tselem, World Council of Churches and UN Security Council Resolutions 446 ("...calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention..."), 452, 465, 471 and 904. The US abstained on most of those conventions, but resultions 465 and 904 carried unanimously. Resolution 465 includes this paragraph:

Accepts the conclusions and recommendations contained in the report of the Commission of the Security Council (on settlements); determines that all measures taken by Israel to change the physical character, composition, institutional structure or status of the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, or any part thereof, have no legal validity and that Israel's policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants in those territories constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East.

What concerns me is what continually concerns me about the ME articles here - that opinions held solely by Israel and the US are given prominence, while the views of the rest of the planet are sidelined, implicitly smeared or presented as marginal views. In this particular instance, the "dispute" amounts to Israel (and the more extreme of its supporters among the US right) saying that the WB, Gaza and Golan are not "occupied" and everybody else saying that they are. Some dispute. Jacob

On a different note: Ed, when you make disambiguation pages, please remember to disambiguate the links to the page. (I am writing you because of Blackberry, but the comment applies in any situation.) — Toby 14:54 Aug 20, 2002 (PDT)

Full disambiguation should be avoided whenever possible -- I converted blackberry back into an article with an disambiguation block at top. --mav

Ed, we (I and some of the commenters on the Talk page) are confused about your edits to public lice. Was the comment referring to the edit, or a different article entirely? --Robert Merkel