Talk:Palestinian refugees

Previous discussions on the this topic may be found here: Talk:Palestinian refugee/Archive 1

Since it is unlikely that removing the polemics from the article would be successful, I suggest that it be restructured so that there is a plain NPOV account first and then there is a section which presents some competing viewpoints, not as a debate but as a precise summary of ideas.

I was certainly wrong. If you calculate it you will see that the Muslim population growth did not exceed 3%. A growth that definitely can be explained by other factors than immigration. Add to the fact that no British records showing a substantial Muslim immigration. So thankfully I'm not agreeing with you. BL 21:59, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I removed this paragraph:

Israelis complain that this definition of refugee wildly exagerrates the number of Palestinian refugees, as they claim a large number of Arabs had immigrated into Palestine during this two-year period. Israelis hold that this unique definition of refugee for Palestinians alone is anti-Israeli and discriminatory. The UNRWA says that this definition is only for administrative conviniance, and has no significant impact on the total number of refugees.

because we have to have some standards here.

This recent massive immigration is a racist myth perpertrated by a hysterical racist diatribe written by a racist journalist with no status as a historian. Contrary to what RK claims, her claims have no support at all amongst the academic historians of this time and period. -- zero

Please stop slandering all people you disagree with as racists. And although I agree with that some academics disagree with her, it is aa bald-faced lie to claim that she has no support among academic historians of this time and period. It seems to me that you have sort of personal animosity towards people who admit that many Arabs immigrated into Palestine, although UN, Jordanian and British documents prove this uncontestably. RK

If someone kept quoting the Protocols favourably in the Jews article you would be upset and so would I. Years ago I spent a long time on FTI and managed to find the majority of the documents she cites. I stand by my assessment. For people who want to learn the truth about FTI, the best article I know of appeared in Capitalism Magazine, perhaps surprisingly for a magazine that features writers like Daniel Pipes. The author investigated the claims of the critics right back to the sources and even disproved some of them, but more than enough remain. He also provided about 90 scans of the official documents he cites so you can check for yourself, but the links to the scans are broken at the moment. The author promised to try to get them fixed so keep trying; meanwhile I am willing to upload a (very limited) number of scans on request. Actually, the British administration and many official enquiries wrote about illegal Arab immigration in almost all their major reports and always concluded that it was very small. There's a whole section on it in the 1931 Census report (didn't notice that in FTI?). I'll give you just one quote because you like quotes so much. It is from one of Peters' favourite documents, the Anglo-American Survey of 1946: The conclusion is that Arab illegal immigration for the purpose of permanent settlement is insignificant. (p212, para 59). As to other historians, name some. Make sure they are academic historians of the late Ottoman or Mandate period (which gives you at least 50 to choose from, maybe 100). I read mid-east history books and academic journals endlessly and I have never seen a favorable mention of TFI.zero

Take the Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath, an authority on the Palestinians (and, incidentally, known in Israel for his right wing views): "I think it's a sheer forgery. In Israel, at least, the book was almost universally dismissed as sheer rubbish." Or Justin McCarthy, the most famous Ottoman demographer, author of the standard reference The Population of Palestine: "her work is demographically worthless". He gives some amazing examples of Peters' ignorance. I could go on... Besides, the allegation "Israelis complain..as they claim.." is an insult to the great majority of Israelis who don't believe crap like this. Unlike RK, I have actually read most of the official documents cited by Peters and I know as a fact that she misrepresents them. There are endless examples. --- zero UTC 10:30 Aug 7.

The following is a response to "zero" and BL. Both of you keep attacking Joan Peters' book, yet you are being inconsistent on the main point. A few days ago, BL admitted to me (and his remarks are still here on Wikipedia) that it is undenibale true that there was massive Arab immigration into Palestine, and that the rise in Arab population cannot be explained any other way. I agreed with him, as do most historians. However, in the last day BL seems to have totally reversed his position, and denies this fact altogether. For reasons I do not understand, BL keeps deleting references to significant amounts of Arab immigration, and is claiming that no mainstream historains believe such an immigration took place. Yet they do make this claim. So what the heck is goin on? Consider this sumamry from JSource, the Jewish Virtual Library: It contains no original research, and relies on original British, Arab and United Nations documents. I am uncertain of why zero and BL seem to be claiming that all these reports are lies. RK 16:45, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

By contrast, throughout the Mandatory period, Arab immigration was unrestricted. In 1930, the Hope Simpson Commission, sent from London to investigate the 1929 Arab riots, said the British practice of ignoring the uncontrolled illegal Arab immigration from Egypt, Transjordan and Syria had the effect of displacing the prospective Jewish immigrants. (John Hope Simpson, Palestine: Report on Immigration, Land Settlement and Development, (London, 1930), p. 126.)

You can find a rather poor scan of the Hope Simpson report at the UNISPAL site. The above claim does not appear in the report as far as I can tell but you are welcome to look for it. The closest I can find is The Chief Immigration Officer has brought to notice that illicit immigration through Syria and across the northern frontier of Palestine is material. This question has already been discussed. It may be a difficult matter to ensure against this illicit immigration, but steps to this end must be taken if the suggested policy is adopted, as also to prevent unemployment lists being swollen by immigrants from Trans-Jordania. but it does not tie this to "prospective Jewish immigrants". On the contrary, it implies the opposite by reporting the success of the Histadrut in banning the employment of Arabs. It is more concerned about the effect of Arab immigration on Arab unemployment. Also the sentence "Arab immigration was unrestricted" is disingenuous. There was no upper quota but there was also no demand. You can see from the tables at the end that the legal Arab emigration exceeded the legal Arab immigration in every year since 1920. -- zero 04:25, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

RK, the report you cite doesn't say what you says it does. The main thrust of Chapter X. on unemployment says that Arabs in Palestine could't find work because Zionists were bringing in capital-intensive methods (e.g. cars vs. donkeys) that were displacing them, then refusing to hire Arabs in Zionist enterprises. It says in passing that there had been a much smaller increase in Jewish unemployment because lower prices for oranges meant growers were unwilling to pay the higher wages Jews commanded. It suggested Arab unemployment, caused by displacement, should not be exacerbated by allowing use of non-indegenous Arab labor, but only says, again in passing, that "Egyptian labour is being employed in certain individual cases, and its ingress has been the subject of adverse comment in the Press." DanKeshet 05:14, Aug 9, 2003 (UTC)

The British Governor of the Sinai from 1922-36 observed: ?This illegal immigration was not only going on from the Sinai, but also from Transjordan and Syria, and it is very difficult to make a case out for the misery of the Arabs if at the same time their compatriots from adjoining states could not be kept from going in to share that misery." (Palestine Royal Commission Report, "The Peel Report, London: 1937) p. 291.

In fact, page 191 of the Peel Report does not contain the above statement and I can't find it at all. Don't take my word for it; I uploaded a scan. What it says on page 191 is "Arab illegal immigration is mostly casual temporary and seasonal." There is no dispute that there was some Arab immigration, but it is stated in many places that it was mostly seasonal and the permanent residual was far smaller than what Joan Peters claims. Here is the entire concluding paragraph of the section on Illegal Arab Immigration:

"The dimension of the volume of illegal immigration from neighbouring territories is unknown. There is evidence that many of these illegal immigrants have land in the neighbouring territories and leave their wives and families in those territories while seeking to augment their livelihood by labour in Palestine. There is evidence also that this form of illegal immigration is seasonal. It is probable that seasonal immigration leaves a residue in Palestine of people who have decided to settle permanently in the country. There is no evidence available to show that this residue is so considerable as seriously to disturb the general economy of Palestine." [p292]

-- zero 05:41, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Here for RK are a smattering of other things I noticed in the Peel Commission Report (stuff in brackets is mine).

"... unlike the Jewish, the rise [of Arab population] has been due in only a slight degree to immigration" [page 125]

"It has been estimated that the Arab population is increasing at the rate of 24,000 persons per annum. This is largely due to the fact that, since the War, conscription has ceased and health and sanitary conditions have greatly improved." [page 282]

-- zero 05:41, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The Peel Commission reported in 1937 that the ?shortfall of land is...due less to the amount of land acquired by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population.? (Palestine Royal Commission Report, p. 242.

What does this have to do with immigration? The statistics prove that the great bulk of the increase was natural and there is no British document that says otherwise. -- zero 04:58, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

RK, you are claiming something that I and zero does not agree with. Unless your name is George W. Bush, it is your job to prove the existance of your claim because disproving it is impossible. At first I thought that the Muslim population of palestine doubled from 1921 to 1945 was remarkabe. It is not and can easily be explained by increased life expectancy and decreasted infant mortality rate. Additionaly the Palestinian Arab population left within Israel's border after 1948 continued to grow at a equally high rate even when there can be no question about that there was no Arab immigration. Also, these two sources [1], [2] have two nifty tables in the botton of their respective page showing clearly that the Arab immigration was nonexistant and that higher living standards was the reason for the high population growth. BL 20:27, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

BL is quite correct. In fact, the Israeli Statistical Yearbooks of the early 1960s give a rate of natural increase of Israeli Arabs that was considerably higher than the total rate of Arab population increase during the Mandate. The reasons are no secret: each Arab woman on average gave birth more than 7 times. -- zero 04:58, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Now let's turn to the Census of 1931 and its lengthy report (which I can't find on the UNISPAL site but I have on microfilm). You won't find it mentioned in FTI that pages 61-65 of volume I contain a section "Comparison of the census statistics with the annual records of migration". This compares the census counts against the records of births, deaths and immigration for the period 1922-1931 and analyses the discrepancy. It is the most detailed investigation of unrecorded immigration that appears in any British document as far as I know. While warning of the statistical difficulties of such a study, it concludes that there was a net total unrecorded migratory balance (inwards minus outwards) of 13,000 of which 9,000 were Jews. In other words, total Arab migration of 7,000 legal plus 4,000 illegal. (The figures for Jews were 50,000 legal plus 9,000 illegal.) You also won't find it mentioned in FTI that there was a direct count of people according to birth place. The percentages born outside Palestine were: Muslims, 2%; Christians, 20%; Jews, 58%. (Vol I, p59). By now it ought to be abundantly clear that RK is out of his league here. By relying on propagandists and second hand repeats of them, he has formed completely erroneous beliefs about the facts. I don't time to continue this debate much longer, especially as I don't believe RK will wake up and see the light. Most likely he will continue to make the same phoney claims. It wouldn't be a matter of concern except that he keeps inserting his mistaken POV into Wikipedia articles. It is really too much to ask that he assertain the truth of his beliefs before misleadig Wikipedia readers with them? -- zero 06:27, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Please don't make this academic discussion into a personal issue. I don't understand why you and BL imply that I would deliberately push claims that are phony. I was merely holding a position based on what I have read on this subject, based on the belief that my sources were accurate and unbiased. Don't all of us operate in this way? If it so happens that these sources are shown to be inaccurate and biased, then I simply will no longer support claims to accuracy on these issues. As I respect science and history as sacred domains, I try to keep an open mind. So please stop trying to read my mind. As it happens, I have been reading what you and Bl have uncovered and discussed, and have done so with an open mind. I thus am willing to change my mind on this subject, and I defer to your findings on this topic. So relax, I now agree with you. RK 23:47, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

RK (and everybody else), when we cite sources, we must cite the sources that we read, not the sources that they in turn cite. If you have not personally read something for yourself, please do not cite it. Otherwise, events like this occur. DanKeshet

I am removing BL's statements against Joan Peters' book. Her book, as a whole, was not proven to be fraudulent. Less than 1% of the claims and documents are claimed to be in error. I have read many harsh criticisms of this book, and they generally ignore the vast majority of the texts she cites, and the arguments she makes. And even though her data on the number of Palestinian immigrants is now questioned, that is only a small fraction of her book. More than 3/4 of her book is on other issues on this topic, and many of hger arguments are still accepted as valid by many historians. Frankly, the criticism's made against her book are not professional, and many border on hysteria. The fact that so many of these attacks on her appear on anti-Semitic websites only furthers the impression that people are quote-mining selected criticisms to demonize her, and by implication, Israelis. RK 01:15, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I agree with BL's assessment that the book is fraudulent, however the wording you restored (which was put there by me originally) is enough for the article I think. There is another problem which is harder to fix: the section speaks of "Israeli objections" but actually most Israelis never heard of From Time Immemorial. If they want to read racist Arab-bashing they have plenty of titles in Hebrew to choose from. By and large, FTI is only cited by ignorant Americans. --zero 01:40, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Zero, please such attacks on Ms. Peters. It is false to claim that she is spouting anti-Arab racist comments. I am surprised to see a person as well read as you make such unfounded comments. Just as it is possible for people to strongly disagree with Israel (and be mistaken about some of their beliefs) without being racists, it is also possible for people to stringly disagree with the Arab positions (and be mistaken about some of their beliefs) without being racists. In any case, while most people (both Americans and Israelis) have not read this particular book, some of the arguments she makes have often been used by many Israelis. And contrary to the claims made about her book, her book is not only about the specific subject you mention (The amount of Arab immigration into Western Palestine); others related topics are covered as well. RK 16:41, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

My remarks were carefully considered and I stand by them. They refer to FTI as a whole and not just to the fraudulent claims about immigration. However, since I did not try to put this opinion into the article and this is not supposed to be a chat group, I won't elaborate. -- zero 09:27, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Sigh* Seems like I've discovered a fatal flaw in Wikipedia. You know something is completely bullshit, can prove it yourself, have seen other prove it to, yet you are NOT allowed to say it is bullshit because saying that something is bullshit is "POV". Istead because of NPOV every statement someone has made about something must be given equal space and the only thing you can write about it is "it's possible"... The earth is flat. BL 22:48, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I removed Leumi's long paragraph because
1. It got the definition of Palestinian refugee wrong. See UNRWA for the correct definition. This is mentioned in the previous paragraph of this article already.
2. The precise definition of "normally resident in Palestine" used by UNRWA is more stringent than UNHCR, which exercises flexible discretion in such judgements.
3. The wording "regardless of their place of residence before June 1946" suggests the thoroughly discredited recent immigration myth. In fact most people who were included were born in Palestine.
4. It gets the chronology wrong. UNRWA was established before the UNHCR definition was written, so one cannot correctly say that the UNHCR definition is the "traditional" one.
5. Even though children of refugees are not refugees according to the definition in the Refugee Convention, the UNHCR does extend its protection to those children who it considers in need of protection. This is slightly different from UNRWA practice but not that much different.
6. Anyway most of the original Palestinian refugees did meet the UNHCR definition.
--Zero 12:44, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The definition of Palestinian Refugee is, according to the UNRWA web site, "Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict." My paragraph includes the majority of that definition with some paraphrasing. The words "regardless of their place of residence before June 1946" is accurate, regardless of what it implies. By definition, if one says "normal place of residence was Palestine 'between June 1946 and May 1948'" one does not deal with before June 1946. Hence it is accurate. Furthermore, the chronology is irrevelevant as the term the UNHCR definition is the one dealing with all refugees, thereby making it the one used in typical use when using the term refugee, irregardless of when the organizations were created. Furthermore, UNRWA practice of extending refugee status to any descendants regardless of their position has led to individuals collecting refugee aid regardless of their position and continuing to be refugees as opposed to being resettled, as normal refugees are. To my mind, that constitutes a substantial difference. Some clarification is perhaps necessary but by no means should the paragraph be deleted. I will add in some of your concerns and clarifications, Zero, and then put the paragraph back.

I'm not entirely sure what this is about but could the two of you please discuss the differences on this talk page rather than reverting to your own versions. Thanks. Angela 23:55, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)