Talk:Passport/Archive 1

History of passports

200 years ago there weren't passports. Now they are mandated internationally. What is the story behind this change? Was there a body that decided how to do this? When was the first passport? What organization decides on international passport standards? Kingturtle 19:15 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

Good point, I hope someone fills in the history, although it will not be me. One comment though: passports did exist 200 years ago, and even longer. It's just that they were not necessarily compulsory for entry to all countries. For example, Genghis Khan (allegedly) gave Marco Polo's party passports to ensure free and safe travel throughout his realms. Arguably this is conceptually closer to a visa in modern terms, but it was from such documents that passports apparently evolved.

Incidentally, where the article says "requests permission in the name of the sovereign...", note that in British and other Commonwealth of Nations passports Her Britannic Majesty actually "requests and requires". I suppose that faint air of menace meant something once... Securiger 05:52, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Not all Commonwealth Passports do this Securiger. My Australian passport reads: "The Govenor-General of the Commonwealth of Australia, being the representative in Australia of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, requests all those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hindrance and to afford him or her every assistance and protection of which he or she may stand in need". Robertbrockway 09:29, Dec 2 2004 (UTC).

Withdrawal of passports

British passports are subject to arbitrary withdrawl as well. I quote from the "notes" section:

Caution: This passport remains the property of Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and may be withdrawn at any time.

213.48.230.145 16:20, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

There are indeed many countries that reserve the right to seize an individual's passport as government property, including almost every Latin American nation. Also, since one poster has already indicated that this holds true in the United Kingdom as well, it may be safely assumed that there are still others.

--Gerardo Rafael Avila-Webster, Monterrey, Mexico.

Legality of US travel to Cuba

The article says it's illegal for US citizens to travel to Cuba. I believe this isn't true. It is, in general true that US citizens are prohibited (by trade sanctions) from trading with Cuba, and paying tourist taxes, renting accomodation, and buying in Cuba all fall foul of that law - so this makes it de facto illegal for most US citizens to visit Cuba. That said, if someone (e.g the Cuban government) gives someone a tax-free, all-expenses-paid trip (which they do, occasionally) then I think that's not trade and thus isn't illegal. Also, the government (I think the Secretary of Commerce) can issue a specific waiver, something he seems to do for various diplomatic, sporting, and I believe recently for trade purposes. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 02:40, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Seconded. I believe that if one had a full university scholarship, e.g., it would be perfectly legal to accept it. Does anyone know for sure? Quill 02:49, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Just thought of something else: wasn't it an American film crew that made that documentary about five years ago about the Cuban musicians? Part of it was filmed in Cuba...? Buena Vista Social Club or something like that. Quill 03:05, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, Buena Vista Social Club (movie). It was made by german filmmaker Wim Wenders, and it seems it was filmed on a handheld camcorder (I'm not sure by whom, but quite possibly by Wenders himself). So it's likely that no americans were used in the making of the film. The film does, however, feature american musician Ry Cooder (and maybe his brother). I guess if Wenders paid for everything (from a German bank account), including all of Cooder's bills, then Cooder himself didn't engage in any trade, and so no US trade law was broken. They'd have to be really dumb guys not to have thought very carefully about this subject, I think. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 11:58, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What proportion of the US population really does have a passport?

The much publicized urban legend regarding the supposed mere 1/4 fraction of the US population possessing passports has no basis in fact or in any reputable study, and thus has no place in a serious reference. And apart from having no basis in fact, the supposition itself is inherrently dubious due to the fact that people from the US constitute one of the world's largest, if not the largest, contributors to the global tourist industry.

---

The number of people in the US holding a passport should not, necessarily, be used to gauge their interest in travelling abroad. US citizens do not require a passport to visit Canada, Mexico, Bermuda, and most of the islands in the Carribean. This isolates the US, geographically, from many locations that require US citizens to have a passport.

When you consider that they can travel to the above locations without a passport, and with the vast size of the US itself and the variety of travel destinations in the US, then travelling to places that require a passport is more distant and much MORE costly. Many Americans would love to travel abroad if they could afford it.

Steggall 18:51, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The number of US citizens holding passports will also probably increase in the coming years, due to the US government's announcement that passports will be required for entry to the US from the Caribbean, Bermuda, Central and South America starting in 2006, from Canada and Mexico when travelling by air or sea in 2007, and at the land border crossings in 2008.

Steggall 14:03, 23 June 2005 (UTC)

It should also be pointed out that since the implementation of the Schengen treaty in the EU, a lot of Europeans now don't bother to get passports. They may travel within the EU and to a handful of other countries using their national ID cards. Some of my Spanish friends who live in Ireland have never held a passport, it is now simply an unnecessary expense. (If only the Irish government would issue ID cards I'd happily ditch my passport too!) Seabhcán 12:54, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

On whether Cuba stamps passports

An NYT report dated 2003-11-14 says that "reports differ" on whether Cuban officials stamp visitor's passports or not. I'll modify the article for now. -ph

Israeli Passports

Is there an explination that can be included as to why Israeli passports aren't accepted by those listed countries? Spinboy 21:57, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Most of it stems from the Arab-Israeli conflict. The countries listed don't accept Israeli passports because they don't recognize Israel as a country. Steggall 18:14, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Similarly it is unlawful under Israeli law for Israelis to travel to those countries. The name escapes me right now but an Israeli businessman/conman traveled to the United Arab Emirates to do business some years ago and was promptly snatched and taken to Lebanon as a hostage. It was commented that he actually broke the law in Israel. Of course this really was the least of his problems :( I have considered mentioning this Israeli law to the article but need to research it. Robertbrockway 09:35, Dec 2 2004 (UTC).

I have some comments: Israeli passports ARE accepted to Tunisia, Qatar and on certain circumstances Indonesia. Israeli law prohibits israeli citizens from going to lebanon, syria, iraq, saudi arabia and yemen, unless they get permit from the minister of interior affairs. this is because thes countries fought against israel in the independence war. egypt and jordan were originally included but since they made peace with israel it was cancelled.

International Travel Without Passports

The article listing that travel without passports is allowed between the NAFTA countries (Canada, the US, and Mexico). While this is generally true, it's unclear whether the ability to travel between those countries without the use of a passport is defined in NAFTA or not.

Passport-free travel amongst those countries existed prior to NAFTA. Note that proof of citizenship is still required, and NAFTA does not allow for the same free movement of people as exists in the EEA. It does make it easier for certain people to conduct business or gain temporary residence in the other countries.

Steggall 19:23, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. I was looking for a collective term for the three countries, and NAFTA seemed to fit the bill. I'm really not sure the degree to which NAFTA defines inter-member travel, and indeed the article might be taken to suggest it is NAFTA which obviates passports. Perhaps changing "NAFTA countries" to "North America" would be better (as the three countries essentially comprise North America). I fear we'll get complaints from Saint-Pierre and Miquelon that they still need a passport to visit Canada ;) - John Fader

There were some inaccuracies about European countries. I tried correcting them to the best of my knowledge. (I admit the situation is not simple.) David.Monniaux 23:10, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I made a couple of further clarifications to this, and grouped the resulting text under a new fourth-level heading, "EU, EEA and the Schengen treaty". Teemu Leisti 22:06, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I seem to recall that there is no inherent right to be admitted across the border and Foreign Affairs Canada recommends you take your passport Martin-C 07:08, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)

I feel that this section on international travel without passports warrants a separate article. It's as much about travel or tourism as about passports (or the lack thereof really). Jonathan David Makepeace

Individual country passports

I bet one could write interesting articles about individual countries' passports. I'd love to learn about the United States passport, including how it's changed over time, and what technical security it has (RFID chips?). dbenbenn | talk 20:04, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've already been working on Passport Canada which is mainly about the office, but I see no reason it can't talk about the Canadian passport as well. I think it's a great idea. --File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 20:18, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

World Service Authority?

I keep seeing a link added for the World Service Authority, but is there any point? Does anyone recognize them? --File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 01:55, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hi Spinboy, note that the article has a paragraph on micronations issuing passports that aren't recognized by any U.N. member. Why forbid external links on a similar topic? I disagree with what the World Service Authority is doing and have written to them encouraging them to stop issuing passports, since they are not secure documents and could easily be abused. However, they been around since the late 1940s promoting the concept of world citizenship. They've been issuing passports for forty years, which they claim (and I believe them) have been stamped by officials in 150 countries. They also claim that several countries have given their passports explicit "de jure" legal recognition. I suspect that that claim is deceptive. It may or may not have been true in the past, but the U.S. government has been leaning heavily on countries to withdraw such recognition in recent years. I doubt any government currently affords them true legal recognition, but I can't imagine talking about passports without mentioning this fascinating experiment. Jonathan David Makepeace

We don't link to every micronation that issues passports though, if we did, the external links section would be huge. --File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 16:26, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It would also be huge if we linked to every legitimate passport authority in the world. These are people who have been issuing passports for forty years, seem to have enjoyed de jure recognition in the past, and who make serious assertions about the right to travel. There is no other group like them that asserts world citizenship. Their passports aren't peripheral, they are central to what the World Service Authority is about. Why do you want to deny people access to information about this phenomenon? Their passports have been in the news countless times. A couple of recent examples: The U.S. government claims that an al-Qaida terrorist used one of their passports. The founder of the WSA (a U.S. American) tried to travel to Iraq as a human shield on one of them but was detained by Turkey for not having legitimate papers. I don't want an edit war, but you have yet to convince me that the link is inappropriate. I feel that your deletion of the link is unwarranted censorship. Jonathan David Makepeace

And you have yet to convince me that we should include the link. If you think it's so noteworthy, why don't you create an article on the WSA? Then you can link to the article it under "See also." If others don't think it's noteworthy, it will end up on vfd, and the other members of Wikipedia will decide. Or you could put up a request for comment on this link. --File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 17:45, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why put up an article that would repeat what is already on their Website?

Even the New Zealand Immigration doesn't recognize the WSA. --File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 18:02, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion your point is irrelevant. This article is on passports, not passports that enjoy universal recognition. Indeed, the article discusses passports issued by U.N. member states that are not recognized by other such states, e.g., Israeli passports. Also, Tonga issues "Tongan Protected Persons" passports that are also not recognized by New Zealand or any other country I am aware of, and yet Tonga is a U.N. member. The U.K. issues similar passports that are not recognized by many countries because they don't carry with them the right to live anywhere. I am restoring the link. Jonathan David Makepeace

I see that the external link has been replaced by a link to an overtly biased stub characterizing the World Service Authority as "A group of people who think they can issue passports." I feel that the Micronations section of the Passport article is inaccurate since the World Service Authority provides documentation to show not only that its passports have been accepted by UN member states on a de facto, case-by-case basis but that several such countries have extended routine, de jure recognition to the documents. I am editing the Micronations section and the WSA stub. Jonathan David Makepeace

Immunity and privileges of holders of diplomatic passports

IMHO, it is not correct that holders of diplomatic passports are granted immunity only because they have been issued with such a passport. According to the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, diplomats only enjoy privileges in case that they have been accredited as members of a mission by the host state. It is also customary to grant privileges to persons representing a country which are officially invited by the host country in that function. Furthermore, some countries provide for the possibility of visa-free entry of holders of diplomatic or service passports of some nations as defined in national laws. Granting immunity to all holders of diplomatic passports would invite certain regimes to abuse by broadly issuing such passports.

What, I wonder, is the status of someone "travelling on a diplomatic passport" when they're in a third country in transit from theirt home country to the country of their posting? If you're correct, that person has no diplomatic status in that third country. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk July 8, 2005 22:57 (UTC)

Regarding the article's reference to "Black Passport" being a synonym for a diplomatic passport: Is that a universally used expression or merely one used in the United States? Do any countries issue diplomatic passports in colours other than black? --Steggall July 18, 2005 13:44 (UTC)

Normal British passports used to all be black. With the transition to EU passports (which are red), the old passports were informally called "black passports" and the new ones "red passports". So the term "black passport" meaning a diplomatic passport would confuse a british reader, at least. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 12:24, July 18, 2005 (UTC)