Talk:West Bank

The very existence of this page under this title is in violation of the principles of "Neutral point of view". Only pro-Arab people generally refer to this area as "the West Bank". Pro-Israel terminology is "Judea and Samaria". How to handle this I can't recommend.

In Britain, this area is generally (in fact, almost always) called the West Bank. The CIA, which few people would describe as "pro-Arab", calls it the West Bank. I think this has to be considered the neutral term in English. --Zundark, 2002 Jan 5

This is incorrect. Not only "pro-Arab" people refer to this territory as the West Bank. Many people who are pro-Israel nonetheless do not use the terms "Judea" and "Samaria", as these terms areoften used by the right-wing nationalists; to them these names imply that every inch of land in this area is part of the Biblical land of Israel, and therefore can never be negotiated with. You statements reveals not only a disagreement with the Arab position (which I share), but a strong disagreement against Jews who are not sympathetic to the right-wing of the Israeli political spectrum. Not all Zionists (Jews or gentiles) support the Likud or other rightist parties. (I think they have some good points, but I am more to the left of their positions.) RK

Not everyone who is to your right is a "right-wing nationalist", though I am probably more sympathetic to Likud than you (though, as an American, I cannot vote for any Israeli party). I still think that "West Bank" cannot be termed a neutral term, even if "Judea-Samaria" is a "right-wing nationalist" term.

Perhaps we need an article on Middle East political terminology. Often the name of something carries a connotation. For example, the terms "gay rights" and "woman's right to choose" inherently connote positions of favoring certain legal rights for homosexual citizens and the legal right for a woman to have a voluntary abortion.

I think the Arab side has won a propaganda victory that will be exceedingly hard for Israel to reverse. Getting the US media to refer to Arab separatists in Israel as "Palestinians" is not really neutral, in my opinion. The term itself implies that only Arab residents of historical Palestine are its legitimate claimants, and that Jewish residents of Palestine are "non-Palestinian" and hence illegitmate "occupiers" of the land.

Without really neutral terminology, there is no way to discuss the situation without conceding points that must not be conceded.

My personal analysis of all statements by all sides leads me to believe that the various Arab power groups frankly intend to wipe out Israel altogether. I agree with the author of the "temporary measure" article (although I also agree with Larry that its title at least is not NPOV). The strategy of land for peace is one that must inevitably result in Israel losing all its land.

This is not to say that I consider one side "right" and the other "wrong." Although both I and my church are pro-Israel, neither I nor my church are anti-Arab or anti-Islamic. I respect Islam (the religion) and esteem Islamic culture.

I would like to see some sort of peaceful co-existence of Jews and Muslims in the Middle East. I do not have a formula to propose, however.

My only suggestion is that the religious leaders meet in good faith to work out the historical and theological issues, and that the politicians respect whatever agreement the religious leaders can work out. This may sound naive, but I am optimistic since East and West Germany managed to reconcile. Perhaps if North and South Korea can reconcile, peace in the Middle East will seem more attainable. -- Ed Poor

I think West Bank is a preferable term to "Judaea and Samaria", for three reasons:

Most people are familiar with the term "West Bank", since that's the term the Western media uses. Few people, other than Jews and Israelis, know what "Judaea and Samaria" means. "West Bank" is the ordinary term in English for this place.
People on both sides of the fence use the term "West Bank" since (as RK points out) you'll find some pro-Israel people using it. No one on the pro-Arab side will use the term "Judaea and Samaria".
"West Bank" is a neutral geographical term -- the West Bank of the Jordan river. "Judaea and Samaria" is suggestive of Jewish/Israeli claims to the area.

More generally, I think an article on terminology would be useful. However, I think we need to use the normal terms for these things -- the terms most English-speakers will be expecting. Otherwise, we'll just confuse the reader. And as to terms such as "Palestinian", whatever its conontations, there really is no alternative that conveys the same meaning. -- SJK

I put in a lot of changes. While people seem to be paying lip service to NPOV, etc., what seems to be happening is that they are shuffling for territory so that they can give equal (if not more) space to their own opinions. How appropriate, given the subject matter.

On the other hand, whatever your views are, it is extremely important in such a contentious article to at least get the BASIC FACTS right. These include geography (the borders are clearcut!), history (the history belongs in Israel/Palestine prior to 1949, since the West Bank has such artificial boundaries based on an armistice agreement--if the agreement were signed the next day, the boundaries would have been different), nomenclature (Judea and Samaria do not equal the West Bank. They are names for geographical regions of which the West Bank is part. However, the Israeli city of Beit Shemesh is also Judea and Zichron Yaakov is also Samaria, while the Palestinian town of Jenin is part of the Jezreel Valley), etc. Only once the facts and definitions are accurate can we begin any discussion of politics, for whatever side. Danny

Was that Danny? Anyway, thanks for pointing out my errors. I hope you can fix the article without reverting: the section on Arab and Israeli views is okay, I trust. Ed Poor, Thursday, June 20, 2002

Don't be too trusting. It is such an oversimplification, that it is really not very valuable. You cannot pigeonhole the views in that way--what is Sharon's view, for example? He has agreed to the idea of a Palestinian state in principle and actually participated in a withdrawal from land (1982, he was Defense Minister, when Israel withdrew from the Sinai, and he commanded the soldiers that removed the settlers). Positions generally change based on current events. One day after a bombing, most people in Israel will refuse to even accept the notion of a Palestinian state. One day after a concilliatory speech by Arafat, 60% of Israelis will agree to divide Jerusalem. By the way, the same is true of Palestinians. In other words, the positions themselves are in flux, which is nowhere recognized in the article as it stands. Danny

Hmm... this isn't really related, but the only way in which Palestinians have been known to celebrate peace deals recently, is by freeing Hamas guys from jail. --Uriyan

No, it isn't really related ... or accurate either. The releases made upon reaching peace deals were by Israelis as part of the peace deals (or other arrangements). Arafat's supposed "revolving door policy" in prisons has nothing to do with peace deals with Israel.Danny

I actually meant the "cease fires" during the recent Intifada ("recently" = last 21 months). Of course, when Hammas guys are freed, a cease-fire turns into a situation when Israelis cease and Palestinians fire. --Uriyan

As for the Jordan River, the West Bank only occupies two-thirds of the Bank of the Jordan River running from the Sea of Galilee. The rest was part of Israel's border with Jordan since independence. The West Bank is also nowhere near the northern part of the Jordan River, above the Sea of Galilee. If anything, it formed part of the Israeli border with Syria till 1967.

I thank you both, Danny and Uriyan, for your attention to this article. Danny, might I persuade you to enumerate some of the more popular viewpoints on the region's disposition? You seem to have command of the specifics such as division of Jerusalem that I glossed over. (I note with pride that my Arab POV paragraph survived the last few revisions :-) Ed Poor, Thursday, June 20, 2002

Thanks for the map, DanKeshet. I'm looking at http://www.passia.org for a West Bank map that shows its borders. I'd like a map that shows the West Bank's border with Jordan, Syria, Lebanon & Israel proper -- plus any "natural geographic" boundaries such as rivers, lakes or mountain ranges. Ed Poor, Friday, June 21, 2002 Is the West Bank of 2002 the same as the large pink area between Israel, the Jordan River and the Dead Sea in [1]?

Yes, it is. But note that there's no "Israel" on the map. Those peace-loving Arabs... --Uriyan

--- As I noted in the article, the terms Judea and Samaria are primarily geographical: Samaria is less mountainous than Judah and of a slightly different geological composition. (I can go on and on about how this was reflected in the ancient history of the region due to resulting economic differences, populations, etc., but I will not at this point.) In fact, both terms also refer to territories that constituted part of pre-1967 Israel, such as the corrdidor leading to Jerusalem, the foothills surrounding Beit Guvrin, the southern Judean Desert (Judah), and the eastern strip of foothills along the coastal strip, including the town of Zichron Yaakov (Samaria). Of course, Israelis realize that the term "Judea and Samaria" refers to the West Bank, but the Hebrew equivalent of ha-Gadah ha-Ma'aravit is simply a translation of the English term, with no historical or geographical meaning prior to 1948. Even Israelis who support total withdrawal from the Territories would call the areas either Judea or Samaria, when referring to them historically or geographically--political exigencies aside, those are the Hebrew names for the region. Anecdotally, I remember watching the newscast in the early 1980s, when the Israeli government decided officially that the territories would be called Judea and Samaria in all official broadcasts (there was only one TV station at the time and four official radio stations). The snicker on the newscaster's face was obvious to everyone. The decision has since been ignored. Danny

the uncritical use of "diputed territories" is a violation of NPOV, since it follows the Israeli policy to veil the fact of occupation. it is a purely Israeli euphemism. --Elian

Thank you for responding so quickly (my version was up less than 2 hours). I will refrain from further edits until you have had a chance to see, comment on and fix any problems you see. --Ed Poor

I was present by chance ;-) I also reverted your move of "Palestinian refugee" as I consider the Arab superfluous. You should be aware that it is solely Israeli policy to avoid speaking of Palestinians ("there are no Palestinians" - Golda Meir) and instead use the general term Arabs. By using the term "Arab" or "Arab nationalist" for Palestinians, you already bowed to the Israeli position and don't write neutral anymore. --Elian

I guess this goes back to the question of terms: what is a "Palestinian"?

a member of a Middle-eastern ethnic group plainly distinct from other ethnic groups in the region (like "Kurd")
a member of a distinct "race" (?)
any Arab residing in what the ancient Romans called Palestine = "Palestinian Arab"
an arbitrarily designated group invented by Arab leaders to delegitimize Israel and prevent the creation of a Jewish homeland

Sorry to put it in such blunt terms, but I think that without a clear definition of "Palestinian" the pages elian, uri and ed have been working on will never meet the Wikipedia's standard of "neutral".

I'm not going to revert any of your changes, Elian, since I value our working relationship more than the article. --Ed Poor

A palestinian is for me everyone who answers my question "inta meen wayn?" (where are you from?) with "Ana filasteeni" (I am Palestinian). I suppose some 100% of the people in Westbank and Gaza (excluding Israeli settlers) would answer thusly (or "ana filastiniyyeh" for women). Some 50% of the people in Jordan may answer similarly. about 8 million people over the world will say this, too and add "I am Palestinian refugee". Is this answer clear enough? --Elian

The page has recently been protected I'd like to ask, why? And furthermore, I would like to ask for an explanation from 81 and Viajero as to why you have deleted my edits without providing a reason. You have yet to give any reason, much less one showing why you think they are inaccurate, off topic or lacking in substance. Please do so before you revert them. Leumi 02:03, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)