Talk:Rick Alan Ross

Rephrased somewhat. ReligiousTolerance is not a website dedicated exclusively to criticism of Rick Ross.

Charges that Ross duped FBI into attacking Branch Davidians

Can we use any of the following?

Ross gained notoriety this summer after the BATF and FBI were criticized for utilizing him as a "consultant" leading up to and during the Waco stand-off in 1993. It was discovered that Ross had a prior conviction for $100,000 of jewelery theft and a psychiatric history that included being diagnosed as having "sociopathic inclinations." After deprogramming Branch Davidian David Block at the house of leading CAN official Priscilla Coates, Ross put Block in touch with the BATF. The Treasury Department report on Waco found that false information provided to the BATF by Block was a major factor in the BATF's decision to mount a raid against the Davidians. When the Davidian compound burned to the ground, Ross boasted on TV that he had also been in touch with the FBI throughout the "long haul" that led up to the disaster. [1]

POV? You're soaking in it

The article is full of half-truths, dubious generalizations, lies by implication and other things that people who have the truth on their side don't need to resort to. Why does it (or rather, did it talk about the Cult Awareness Network but not link to the article? It couldn't be because the article on CAN discusses the real reason behind CAN's bankrupting and buy-out, could it?

I'm not sure about the half-truths, etc., but about CAN I think we owe it to our readers to distinguish between the "old CAN" (cult fighters) and the "new CAN" (bought by a Scientologist and given a new slant). I don't want any confusion about, e.g., people wondering why "CAN changed its mind" about any particular NRM. We should make it clear that CAN lost a lawsuit, went bankrupt, and was taken over by a man in one of the groups CAN used to target: that man "changed CAN's mind". --Uncle Ed 13:53, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

found the copyvio

68.49.197.171's changes were taken with minor changes from here, including the POV "his moral credentials seem shaky at best." -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:13, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Minor" criminal record!?

Rick Ross has a major criminal record, not a minor one; burglary, theft, embezzlement and yet to come; practicing psychology w/o a license, profiteering from counseling and slander. The facts are different and this article is completely slanted. Most groups that Ross lists on his site are accused of doing exactly what he's doing while accusing them of it?!?

The facts are that Rick Ross has a High School diploma and is counseling people. He also has a criminal record. Ross lists only some groups, most of which most he has no experience or knowledge; just rumors and gossip. If he was actually doing what he claims he is, then according to HIS criteria; Wal-Mart, Air Force, The Baptist Church, Rick Ross Institute, Columbia KIA-Chevy, John Ashcroft and Vita Hair Products would on that list. For now, only the groups and people that Rick Ross benefits of listing are on his list.

Rick Ross and his site are nothing more but American media smoke and mirrors. Writing a couple of articles and gaining notoriety on controversy is nothing new, but cheap '60-Minutes', Jerry Springer and Daily Mirror tabloid journalism masked into authority that he actually doesn't have and this article is just as slanted as Ross.

Of the three crimes you list that are not "yet to come", two of them are actually the same crime counted twice: the 1975 embezzlement was formally charged as "Conspiracy to Commit Grand Theft". It's not only been almost thirty years since that crime, it's been over twenty since the Superior Court of Arizona vacated the finding of guilt for both offenses. As for the others you list, yes, he has been accused of those things. But not only are they (as you yourself admit) "yet to come", some of them aren't even crimes: what jurisdiction has a statute of "profiteering from counseling"? (Such a statute would certainly be fought tooth and nail by some of the very groups that would most like to see Ross brought down.) We can hardly describe as part of someone's "criminal record" acts which are not crimes. Neither could any non-"slanted" article include under "criminal record" charges that have yet to be proved in a court of law, let alone accusations which have not even been entered as formal charges.

As for his formal training, his CV does indeed indicate that his highest formal degree is his high school diploma. It also notes that he has been qualified and accepted as an expert witness in cases in eight states, a process during which opposing counsel would certainly have had the opportunity to argue that his credentials are insufficient, which is pretty much what you're arguing now. Had they succeeded, he would not have been qualified and accepted by the court. I'm sure you're also aware that you don't get invited to lecture at Rutgers University and the University of Chicago just from having been on Jerry Springer or in the Daily Mirror. -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:07, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Making a profit of counseling w/o a licence is a crime in many states. Slander, while not a crime until convicted, is inauthentic to say about a person who is accusing others (organizations/people) who are not convicted. Rick Ross is a convicted criminal. He studies people who are contraversial, maybe hoping that they too would be convicted some day.

Previously, you said Rick Ross was guilty of practicing psychology without a license. I hope you're aware that in most states, "psychology" and "counseling" are two different things, and there is no limit on who can call the services that they offer "counseling". That is in fact what many of Ross's opponents count upon, since they would be in trouble if they were suddenly forced to produce some proof that the services they are providing are actually in line with some peer-reviewed approach.

I wonder from your references if you're from the UK. If so, you may be unaware that U.S. law holds truth to be the absolute defense in slander: i.e., if what someone said is the truth, it can't be slander. I have to wonder if your standard for slander is based on the UK model because honestly, it's very hard to figure out your standard: you seem to be arguing that if Rick Ross suggests that anyone else has done anything at all that they shouldn't, it constitutes slander, but on the other hand, because you believe Ross is guilty of something (i.e., slander) you can not only freely suggest that he has committed slander, you can actually talk about it as 'part of his criminal record yet to come', as if it had already been ruled upon by a court. How do you resolve this double standard?

Anyone can, and in fact do, testify in courts. There are pseudo-psychologists, like Ross, and even real ones that make a living on the court circuits and TV without actually practising their trade. Some spend less than an hour with the people they testify 'for' or 'against' that day (who's paying). Jailhouse snitches, "experts" and practically anyone can be called to testify.

Jailhouse snitches get qualified as lay witnesses, not expert witnesses. As has been said, the side calling an expert witness must qualify their expert witnesses during discovery and the opposition has just as much chance to argue the inapplicability of an expert witness's credentials as they do to impeach the testimony of a lay witness. The court then decides whether the witness is admissible or not. Courts in eight states have decided that despite Rick Ross' highest formal schooling being the completion of high school (one fact that you repeated over and over in different phrasings to make a paragraph) his credentials qualified him as an expert witness.

Universities and colleges have people all the time giving speeches or a lecture about abstinence, drug abuse, smoking or hazards of drinking etc...

"Giving speeches" and "giving lectures" are two very different things. One is not invited to give lectures at a major institution of learning, or to give a presentation at a major conference, on the same basis that one is invited to talk to freshman students about it being a bad idea to drink to excess.

Ross has a crimal record. He has convictions.

You've said that. Twice in the space of two sentences, actually. I hope you realize that simply repeating a thing over and over will not increase its significance.

He's found a way to make a living by utilizing other people and organizations' work rather than being original and doing something himself, like going to school and become and expert instead of playing one on TV.

That's entirely your POV opinion on what's going on in his mind.

Writing a book ("My Sex Addition" or "How to Fly for Free") will get the 'Today Show' or 'Goodmorning America' calling to bring the 'expert' or 'author' on the show, that looks like legitimate... entertainment.

Yes, and that would be relevant if Ross's only qualifications were that he had written a book and been on a talk show.

Ross is nothing more than a gossip mongering rumor mill who will air ANYONE's gripes of only select organizations. If you look carefully, there is a certain underlining criteria, a hidden agenda, that he has, but I will leave that up to you to see. There are so many victim/weep stories from people who are offended by one thing or another, that they'd fill several libraries or a Rick Ross website -- and Ross gets to lecture at Rutgers -- smoke and mirrors.

I see more of a "certain underlining criteria, a hidden agenda" when I look at the people and organizations lining up to criticize Ross. More importantly (since you've shown interest in what I see) when Ross delivers criticism, I see a focus on deeds: I see Ross stating "This is what the organization does to its members; this is how it treats them as no human being deserves to be treated, and this is how it confuses them so that they think they actually do deserve such treatment." When Ross is criticized, the criticism tends to hammer at Ross as a person: "He's got a criminal record. He's a glory hound. He's got a criminal record. He's a fraud. He's got a criminal record that includes slander, or would, if any court of law had actually found him guilty of slander, which has not happened but we're counting it as if it did. He's got a hidden agenda. Have we mentioned his criminal record, which gets bigger with every telling?" Smoke and mirrors indeed. -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:45, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ross is a questionable person because no professional would use such a flimsy and unscientific basis on their work as Ross. His theories, research/writing, hypothesis and methodology is entirely laughable and at best naive. If there is a complaint about the way an organization treats people ("like no human being deserves"), then file a police report or leave! Some people do both. All the power to them for taking action and actualy causing something in their lives.

Gossip, rumors, whining and complaints lead into nothing and that is Ross' business! In fact, it's repeat business because it leads into no one taking responsibility (esp. for themselves) and making anything actually happen. More of the same, the more fear and scandals, the better for these psychologists and "experts" like Ross who plays one on TV.

Well, you're certainly welcome to your opinion. -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:52, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OK. Now I understand better Antaeus Feldspar's POV. You could have said so. --Zappaz 03:46, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Heh. You know, I'd really like it if you actually did understand my POV, unlike all those times where you said you understood my POV but then proceeded to argue against an idea that I'd never stated and that I myself opposed. I'll wait and see if you actually do understand where I'm coming from this time. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:44, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Missing info from this article

1. Brainwashing allegations (e.g. Elizabeth Smart' case) and his appearances in TV about the subject;
2. Terminology invented by Ross such as "Expert Consultant and Intervention Specialist" after deprogramming became a bad word.
3. Ross antagonism with Anton Hein and Hassan.
4. and more ...

--Zappaz 04:09, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Expert witness

Can anyone confirm when was the last time Rick Ross was an expert witness in a legal case? It will be good to list these cases as well, but I have not managed to find a list that support this statement: He has however been qualified and accepted as an expert witness in court cases in eight states. --Zappaz 15:53, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I will remove this text unless someone can provide a reference for these. Otherwise is self-serving propaganda. --Zappaz 19:51, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm sure that you're quite aware that the information comes from Ross's CV. Do you have a particular reason (besides your declared dislike of him and distrust of his character) to think that the information is not true? I'm a bit puzzled that you cannot seem to decide whether the information is insufficiently referenced or whether it is just too old ("Can anyone confirm when was the last time Rick Ross was an expert witness in a legal case?") If of course "it is too old" is found to be an acceptable reason to remove this information, then naturally the information on his criminal record will have to go as well, since it's even older. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:51, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I found this quote purportedly from the civil suit]:

• The jury found that Ross “intentionally and recklessly acted in a way that is so outrageous in character and so extreme in degree as to be beyond all possible bounds of decency and to be regarded as atrocious and utterly intolerable in a civilized community.”

I am not so sure of its autencity. Does any one have access to the transcript of the jury's statement? --Zappaz 16:04, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

We also need some info on the alleged 300 or so cases of deprogramming in which Ross was involved. --Zappaz 21:55, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Deleting factual data from article

Why is factual data is being remvoved from the article under the false pretense of NPOV?

• Ross was found guilty of unlawful or false imprisonment. Fact
• The civil case award was more than $4.8 million . Fact
• The civil case resulted in his and the CAN's bankruptcy. Fact
• Ross is a self-declared expert. Fact

Please do not delete these facts. Thanks. --Zappaz 15:34, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The civil case against Ross was not $4.8 million. Other people regard him as an expert too. CAN's bankruptcy is secondary. -Willmcw 18:32, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

The guy is super controversial, and as such info about the controversy must be presented in the intro. The fact that he a self-declared expert is well known. Anti-cultists repeating in 200 websites that he is an expert, it does not mean that he is. I would only agree to the NPOV format that, given the controversy, we say who consider him an expert. Such as anti-cultit believe Ross is a cult expert. --Zappaz 21:46, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz, take it a little slower, okay? You are on the right track, but Will is asking you to be more precise. (This is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid newspaper :-)

The suit was against CAN, Ross and a couple other guys. While the total was nearly 5 million, Ross's part was less. We can look that up at Cesnur or Bernie. And the phrases "found guilty" or "convicted" might not apply to a civil case (like a lawsuit). Was he jailed? If so, we can say when and where.

The case by itself might not have bankrupted CAN, but it was a precipitating factor, i.e., the last straw.

We need to look into the usage of the word expert a little more. Will, is there a bit of "cult expert" vs. "cult apologist" going on? With the experts touting mind control and the apologists paying knee-jerk lip service to the cults who pay their bills? -- Uncle Ed (talk) 22:47, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

I already reduced the intro and renoved the CAN stuff. Ross was down for 2.5 million dollars and he declared personal bankruptcy because of that. The jury found him guitly and thus awarded the plaintiff that amount. I am not a lawyer so maybe we need to find the correct wording. See below. I am trying to find the transcript of the judgement. It was not small potatoes, and given the controvery around this man, it is encyclopedic to include this info. There is a pretty recent article in the Guardian, that paints an interesting picture of Ross. I am trying to find a copy of it. --Zappaz 00:09, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Here it is: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0%2C11913%2C1371787%2C00.html --Zappaz 00:14, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Just general reminder that it is the duty of each and every Wikipedia to write NPOV articles. None of us should write from a POV with the expectation that an opposing POV will someday come through and pull the article back towards neutral. Cheers, -Willmcw 02:47, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

Will, I am of the understanding that you can only write articles respecting NPOV, when you embrace and accept the fact that you have a bias and have a very specific POV. Articles on controversial issues are best written when the dynamics of opposing POVs balancing each other come to play. To assume that we are unbiased editors writing articles that we do not have passionate POVs about, and that we can transcend our POV out of duty, is hypocrisy or at best wishful thinking. Just look at the articles about Mind control and Brainwashing. Left alone, these articles were a POV disaster. Then, I and others with opposing POVs intervened and worked on the articles. The result: The Brainwashing article is now comprehensive and an excellent one. I am placing that article next week as a candidate for FA. --Zappaz 16:26, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You are both right. Zappaz is emphasizing the value of having a POV, while Will is emphasizing the value of transcending your POV. I hope both of you will stick around! -- Uncle Ed (talk) 20:32, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

Embracing a POV is wonderful thing to do in life, but a terrible thing to do when writing an encyclopedia. Pointing out the faults of other editors is no excuse for engaging in those same faults. NPOV is more than wishful thinking, it is official Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. -Willmcw 05:32, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

My point, Ed, is that you cannot transcend your POV on articles that you feel passionately about. Some people in WP (they know who they are, I don't need to point fingers), claim to transcend their POV when actually they don't. I prefer a more honest approach to life, in which you assume your biases and POVs and learn to live with opposing ones. Note that I am not saying that NPOV is not a wonderful principle (it is!) and I am the first to protect its integrity. What I am saying is that in order to write NPOV, you have to assume your POV fully. Only then you can write for the enemy as well as protect the integrity of NPOV by providing a counterbalance. Wishful thinking is attempting to ingnore your POV and to claim that you trascend it when you actually don't. Capsishe?--Zappaz 05:39, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Use whatever theory or rationalization you prefer, just please make sure that your actual edits are NPOV. Do both Zappaz and Unlce Ed feel that this is an NPOV article? -Willmcw 06:48, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

I think we are getting there. Much more NPOV than six weeks ago when this article was an advert for his "intervention" business. We need some more info as explained below. We should include some more stuff from his website as well. --Zappaz 15:42, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Will, you're question is a fair one and a relevant one. I will review the article today, and give an answer. Before doing that (relying on memory), I would say that the trend has been to change the tone of the article from (A) endorsing Ross as a knowledgeable authority (on new religions) to (B) presenting him as someone who was legally admonished and punished for violating religious rights in an unconscionable way with forcible deprogramming (in the Jason Scott case, for example; as well as egging on the US gov't to cause (or trigger) the deaths at Waco.

If anyone still thinks he's a good guy (and there are many who praise Mao, Stalin, Hitler, etc.) we ought to include this POV (even though I think it's obvious that they are wrong).

This is my "bias", if you will. Please help us to (1) present the dark side of Ross, and (2) describe the POV of his defenders / fans - so the article will meet Wikipedia's NPOV standards. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 13:45, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

Bias or no, we are writing a biography. It should include information like where the subject lives, when he was born, etc. Arguing over his involvement in Waco is secondary to basic biographical info. That's the same standard as applies to any person that we write about here on Wikipedia. Cheers, -Willmcw 05:46, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

Of course... Biography details are very important, and this includes his two criminal convictions before he became an anti-cult "expert", the fact that he only completed high school and has no formal education in counselling and most definitively the Waco involvement and the Jason case. All these are biographical and nothing to do with bias. These are facts subtantiated by solid references. If these were not notable aspects of his life, then why to feature an article on Ross? --Zappaz 16:28, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Describing only negative aspects of a person, even "facts", is POV. -Willmcw 17:13, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

Compare the article before we starte adding facts. Do you think that the article was NPOV then? IMO, it was un-ecyclopedic and an advertisemnet. If there are positive aspects about this person, that are notable enough to be in an encyclopedic article, let's have these. We cannot add, "he is a nice guy" can we? But we could add, for example, that the anti-cult movement quote him extensively and consider him a champion of the fight against cults, etc. --Zappaz 04:26, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps we could provide some balance by saying that Ross is controversial. He is lionized by anti-cultists for his (claimed) hundreds of deprogrammings (half legal, half illegal, I think he said). He is demonized by pro-civil-rights and pro-religious-freedom groups for kidnapping people and forcibly breaking their faith.

It might even lead to an examination of why deprogrammers are lionized / demonized. Which should be part of the "cult" article: many regard joining a questionable religous group as something your family should rescue you from; many others regard it as something which is none of their business. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 16:51, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

Agree... care to write for the enemy and add a few snippets about the lionization of Ross by anti-cultists? --Zappaz 21:47, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

recent edits

1. If any text in article is not NPOV, then please re-write/edit and provide reasons here
2. Having text that is considered not NPOV, does not give anyone the right to add text to support an oppposing POV. Alert us to the fact, discuss and propose alternatives.

Thanks. --Zappaz 17:14, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Can you explain poiint #2 more clearly? I had always thought that the best way of balancing potentially POV statements was to add material from a different perspective. I had also thought that editors are free to edit without first consulting anyone, except in the case of articles previously tagged as being controversial. (Note, I'm not the editor of the material, but I saw your note here and don't understand it). Thanks, -Willmcw 17:56, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

What I meant, Will, is that if I have added text that you consider it to be not NPOV, please help out and fix it, rather than add more text that is not NPOV. This idea of adding materials from opposing POVs to reach NPOV, is a misunderstanding of NPOV policy IMO and usually creates havoc in controversial articles (see the mess at Talk:Guru). When we edit, text we write should not support any specific POV. Describing the controversy and staying within facts as written by notable sources or credible published opinion, is the way to write NPOV. --Zappaz 21:12, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

May 13 The entry as it previously was before recent editing was repetitive, and essentially a one-sided expression of opinion as opposed to facts. This type of rant should be reserved for a personal website as opposed to a supposedly neutral fact-based database. It is now factual and balanced.

It will be nice if youy get a user ID and you sign your comments. I disagree with the edit. WP is not aa place for advertisment of a business or a consultant. --Zappaz 02:54, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Your edit:

Rick Ross is an internationally known professional consultant concerning cults and controversial groups and movements. He was consulted regarding the Waco Davidians before and during the 1993 standoff with federal law enforcement.

Current version:

Rick Ross is one of the best-known anti-cult activists in the United States, a former deprogrammer, and a major proponent of the "mind control" theory of "cult" involvement. His involvement as a "cult expert" in the Waco standoff was controversial.

"Professional consultant" is the way that Ross would want people to address him and it is non-encycloedic and against WP policy of advertising of business. He has no credentials to claim such "professionalism", and has been found to be extremely controversial in his career as a deprogrammer (read the judgement against him in the Scott case) and his involvement in the Waco disaster. Those are the facts. --Zappaz 03:01, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz wishes to post a rant here and a slanted version of events, which is neither neutral or objective.

Note Zappaz at other entries such as anti-cult movement, mind control, deprogramming etc. Essentially he is a propagandist attempting to use Wikipedia to present his own very slanted version on cult-related topics.

What facts are you disputing now? The entry is factual.

Please try to keep your personal bias out of Wikipedia.

It will be best if you get an account and you sign your postings. Particularly if you have the chutzpah to make an unwarranted acussation. And please stop removing facts from the article, such as the fact that Ross is has been widely criticized. Thanks.--Zappaz 19:47, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Quote from jury

I couldn't find the source for the quote from the jury in the Scott case. Does anyone have a reference? Thanks, -Willmcw 20:17, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

Will, that is the standard way that a judgement agains INTENTIONAL INFLICTION OF EMOTIONAL DISTRESS is worded. [2] That wording is present in the judgement against Ross. --Zappaz 05:09, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

It's a bit overdramatic to quote the legal boilerplate. Let's just say which crimes he was found guilty of, and leave it at that. -Willmcw 05:27, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

Do you think that being kidnapped, bound, abused and demeaned is overdramatic? --Zappaz 15:23, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

---

Zappaz--it is you that has the "chutzpah" as you are involved in expressing your opinions and not "facts." Your "editing" reads like propaganda. You really give Wikipedia a bad name. A Slate article said "Wikipedia is a real-life Hitchhiker's Guide: huge, nerdy, and imprecise." Your imprecise and biased work can easily be seen through your other so-called "editing."

Zappaz's bias is visible at "anti-cult movement," "mind control," cult apologist and "cult."

Also to better understand Zappaz's core of bias see his "editing" at "Divine Light Mission" and Prem Rawat," which read more like an adverstisement for the scandal-ridden guru that has often been called a "cult leader."

Thank you for the kind words. Would be nice to know your bias. My bias is against religious intolerance and anti-cultism as a manifestation of that intolerance, a good example of which is the venom in your above statement. If you really care about WP, come along, join the team and help make WP the best encyclopedia there is. But it will take an effort to understand NPOV, work with people with completely opposing POVs, and to reach consensus. Not easy, but doable. --Zappaz

Your welcome Zappaz. Again, anyone interested can review your "editing" work on the above named sections and see what "venom" and POV/bias you have spread within Wikipedia.

You post essentially one-sided propaganda supposedly NPOV.

Try sticking to the facts.

"Relgious intolereance" sounds like your definition of criticism directed towards destructive cults. Please try to understand the concept of objective balance based upon historical facts. Groups often called "cults" can be destructive and harm people. That is evident to anyone that reads their recorded history through the mainstream press such as articles about the Branch Davidians, Aum Shinrikyo, Jonestown, the Solar Temple, Charles Manson, Heaven's Gate, the Movementent for the Restoration of the Tend Commandments, The Children of God, ISKCON, Scientology, Sai Baba and your apparent favorite Guru Maharaji, Prem Rawat founder of Divine Light Mission. Your input at Divine Light Mission and criticism of Prem Rawat is revealing.

Again, your entry on this guru reads like a POV paid infomercial.

Sadly, some entries in Wikipedia, like the one about the Branch Davidians, read more like a conspiracy theories than a historical fact-based record. And the entry on Aum Shinrikyo largely ignores the final outcome of evidence that demonstrates Asahara's guilt and "mind control" overwhelmingly. Entries like these is probably why Slate said "what's keeping Wikipedia from becoming the Net's killer resource. Accuracy is."

What world are you living in Zappaz? It seems to be one that is largely detached from history, world news and perhaps even somewhat from reality. But shouldn't "Wikiworld" be grounded in facts based upon the neutral point of view NPOV you claim to express?

I can see that you have no clue how WP works. As such, I am trying to be nice to you for now. As much as I contributed to the articles you mention, there were many, many other editors that contributed. These articles are not "mine" and not "my entries"! If you see any article that needs help, join the fry and help out. Just a note of caution, attacking others just because they have an opposing POV than yours, will not take far in WP. Lastly, I have publicly declared my bias and my interests (read my talk page), but we know nothing about you. Are you in any way or manner related to the Ross institute? Thanks. --Zappaz 15:12, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz--let me be precise. I am specifically discussing your "entries" (i.e. contributions) to the previously cited sections/topics. They fit a POV pattern that is not NPOV. Hopefully you will not persist here in attempting to mislead visitors.

I am not attacking you personally, but rather the way in which you attempt to manipulate Wikipedia to reflect your POV.

Let's just stick to the facts and avoid the "politics of personal destruction."

For example your use of "scholars" is an imprecise and misleading reference as is the reference to "minority religions."

The precise politically correct term promoted by those that share your POV is actually "new religious movements" (NRMs). "Minority religions" is an imprecise term that could denote anything from Orthodox Jews to the Amish and is therefore too general.

You also use "scholars" without qualification. Actually the critical scholars you prefer to focus on like Anson Shupe or Gordon Melton work for cults, many of these supposed academics are recommended by Scientology and ohter "cults" as "resources." Nancy Ammerman was once featured in a full page article within "Freedom Magazine" published by Scientology.

Such "scholars" are not NPOV and have a POV that matches your own. Because of this they have been called "cult apologists" as you must know.

To be NPOV you should denote "some scholars," which to say the least reflects the facts.

Many scholars don't agree with those you prefer to cite preferentially and there is a growing controversy within academia about their bias.

This brings me to another point, which is your insistence on the word "controversy" or "controversial."

No serious and meaningful media reporting reflected a "controversy" during or after Waco about cult experts consulted by the BATF and/or FBI. Ms. Ammerman tried to create one along with other "cult apologists," but it never really gained any credibility and it remains only a "controversy" amongst conspiracy theorists, cults and their apologists.

Interestingly, Carol Moore is actually quite controversial, as are various cult apologists and their "research" within academia. Why not denote that controversy within your "NPOV" editing?

I am trying to be nice, but you do make that difficult at times.

Mr or Mrs Anon: I am highly aware of all the terminology and highly aware of positions like yours: anti-cultists all bang a similar drum, so it your argments are very predictable (the same way that "cult apologists" bang theirs. I have been acussed to being one, and in one way feel proud to be considered one!). You have still not answered my question that begs an answer. For the third time I ask: Are you or are you not in any way or manner related to the Ross institute? Thank you. --Zappaz 20:21, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz--thanks for acknowledging that you "feel proud to be considered" a cult apologist. This helps everyone that reviews your contributions better understand your POV.

Mr./Mrs anon does not need to answer this question if s/he does want to. The only thing that matters is whether Mr. anon's edits follow Wikipedia's guidelines and policies. Andries 20:32, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Andries to the rescue! :) - Anon does not have to. But it will be nice to know if of he as anything to do Mr Ross, don't you think? He/She seems to know quite a bit about Ross. --Zappaz 20:42, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Contradictions

Ammerman claims Ross was co-responsible but the FBI says they did not seriously consider his advice. This has to be clarified. Andries 20:39, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Can you spell controversy? This is a good example of such. My reading (personal opinion): FBI wanted to distantiate as much as possible from Ross, because it was an embarrassement caused by the Scott case (check the dates and you will understand), thus the disclaimers on that report. --Zappaz 20:44, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Is there a source for the quote

The FBI interview transcripts on the Waco tragedy includes the note that "[Ross] has a personal hatred for all religious cults" and would aid law enforcement in an attempt to "destroy a cult" (sic).

besides Ammerman? If not we should add According to Ammerman, before the quote. -Willmcw 20:54, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

The quote is from the FBI report. Ammerman is just citing it. You can read a well referenced account at http://carolmoore.net/waco/TDM-08.html. --Zappaz 23:43, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

The quote isn't in that reference. Is there a link to the FBI report that Ammerman claims to quote? If we can't find it directly then we need to attribute it to Ammerman. -Willmcw 23:52, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

Expert witness?

Try and google "expert witness" AND "rick ross". Lo and behold, only his website(s) and other anti-cult sites cite that. He claims to being an expert witness in eight states but fails to provide info on (a) when? (b) in which cases? and (c) what was the result of his involvement. Fascinating. Maybe anon can throw some light. --Zappaz 23:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

referenced here. So you are stating that the informaiton here is false and that the "eight states" stated is a lie? Don't you think that Scientology, which has 17 pages and a 196 page PDF file on this cult expert, would mention that? Certainly would be good grist for their mill. When can you remember Scientology missing an opportunity like that? FYI--they don't mention at any time that this expert was not qualified or his testimony striken from the record. Not one word. Do you really think Scientology would overlook that? Or do you think they didn't check? See [3] And by the way, isn't being qualified and accepted in eight states as a cult expert and all the media work done as a paid professional and acknowledged cult expert not to mention the university and college lectures sufficient to come to the conclusion that POV statements like "self-proclaimed cult expert" and "cult expert" actually should be changed to recognized cult expert? Isn't that a NPOV fact? FYI--In Scientology's review of Steve Hassan's career they didn't overlook such detailed information [4]Hassan has four pages, but they certianly included specific information about his testimony as an expert witness. Zappaz--give it up, you are not making any sense at all, other than attempting to mislead Wikipedia readers and present your proudly proclaimed "cult apologist" POV.

FYI--Ammerman stated in her report, supposedly based on FBI files and notes, that the FBI relied too much on Ross. Interesting, that the FBI says they did not rely on him at all, but Ammerman contradicts this in her cited report for the Justice Department. Is Ammerman a liar? Should this contradiction between Ammerman and the FBI be cited?

FYI--The Treasury report fully acknowledges that Ross was consulted and his deprogramming of David Block is reported there and within the book "See No Evil" by Tim Madigan. The other deprogramming is mentioned elsewhere, but apparently has never been reported about in depth, probably due to privacy issues.

Man (or woman) you really blow air, don't you? I did not argue that the info is false. I only asked a pertinent question: Where, when and in what cases RR was an expert witness? The fact that this info is not easily available, makes it an interesting question. Don't you think? Maybe you can help us know the answer ...as Ross' website do not provide that information. His website is what is called a "self-serving" statement. Being a consultant that makes his living by portraying to be an "expert", it is expected that his CV will be beautified. IMHO, RR is not an expert, but a media whore (that is just my opinion). Regarding Ammerman, feel free to explore these contradictions, although it may be better to explore them in the Waco article. Concerning your wish that I "give it up", do get your hopes to high on that hapenning anytime soon. Someone has to provide a counterbalance to those editors that think that human beings have no rights in the belief department. Thank god for NPOV, consensus and editors that help each other to achieve these, even if sometime it is through a rough process. Tell me: where in the world we would have had the opportunity to "cross swords", if it was not for wiki? Long live WP! :)-Zappaz 02:46, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

I read this http://www.rickross.com/reference/expert_witness/expert_witness.html (a copy of http://www.rickross.com/witness.html) and wonder. It says a lot! Just read it and tell me what you think. i.e. Latest engagement 1998. Some engagements to do with divorce cases, and most important is what is missing: his testimonies in these cases! Given how much RR peddles his purported "expert witness" stature, it makes for quite a poor (and pretty old) showing. Will be interesting to read his testimony on these cases. Maybe anon can find these and share with us. That will be nice. It will also be interesting to know the people on the Ross institute's advisory board. That will be a nice addition to the article. [5]--Zappaz 05:02, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz--Thanks. Your comments once again put your objectives and involvement here at Wikipedia into perspective. Terms like "media whore," "peddles his purported 'expert witness' stature" sound more like POV propaganda not NPOV facts. Thanks for admitting that you would "not argue that the info is false" regarding the expert witness work cited. Posting every expert witness appearence in detail would probably be time consuming, possibly against the advice of some lawyers and/or simply a personal choice. Whatever. Certainly opposing counsel examining an expert would be concerned with that and point out for the record that Ross lied on his CV or website. As stated previously in discussion with you whenever anyone takes the stand in court as a witness the opposing counsel grills them in an effort to disqualify their testimoney. Didn't you know that? And that becomes part of the public record. But Scineotlogy apparently found no such record that Ross lied or ever failed to be qualified. Considering the resources of Scientology and their effort to attack this expert, the fact that they have nothing posted should satisfy you, that is if you are actually interested in the facts and an NPOV entry here. Please stop the propaganda. "Media whore"? Or are you just upset that someone you say is "not an expert" is widely considerd one by the mainstream media, colleges, universities and the courts. Bottom line--you offer nothing here, but baseless POV rather than NPOV facts. Acknowledging the contradiction between what the FBI says (i.e. denial that Ross was consulted by them posted here) and the Ammerman quote that says they did, should be reconciled. The easiest way is to point out that Ms. Ammerman contradicted both the FBI and Justice Report as did Ross. Or do you just wish to exclude that relevant point for your own POV purposes?

Let's stick to the facts and be fair to Wikipedia readers.67.134.82.78 14:27, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Anon: To be fair to WP readers, we need to provide the facts. The fact is that this person is only notable due to the controversy surrounding him. As such, the controversy needs to be stated uniquevocally. I am still interested to know if you have anything to do with the Ross institute, that by the way is not called the "Ross Institute" (check my edit of yesterday). This is another example of "CC beautification, IMO. --Zappaz 15:29, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Proposal

No point on an edit war, when the spoils are so small.... There are several articles out there I am dying to sink my teeth into. I'll tell you what... I have done as much as I could to get this article in good NPOV shape (you should have seen its shape a few months ago!). Why don't you work with Willmcw (whom I respect despite our huge differences in POVs) on putting the final touches? I promise to stay out of editing this article for a while. When I return (let's say end of May), I will comment on this talk page before doing any additional editing. Will is an experienced editor and understand the nuances of NPOV very well. You will find it easier to work with him than with badass me, as he professes a POV that may be closer to yours, I think. See you end of May! :) --Zappaz 15:58, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz are you serious? The only reason Ross is "notable" and/or repeated quoted in news reports, college lectures and the courts is the "controversy surrounding him." That doesn't match up with many news articles on-line at all. Seems like this is wishful thinking on your part. Very few articles about him even mention any "controversy" that I've seen. Try Google News. You will find that the overwhelming majority of articles about Ross cite him as an "expert" or a source for information and/or informed comment. Likewise, through artilces about lectures, his television appearences or court testimony. Comments like this make me think you are not researching what you say. Your point about the Ross Institute name is actually a veery minor one. Many institutes that have longer names would be referred to with a shorter title for the sake of space. I don't see what your point is here. It is referred to as the Ross Institute, Ross Institute of New Jersey, RI and the Rick A. Ross Institute, or RRI. There are many "Ross Institutes" (Ross is a common name) and each one may have a longer more specific and identifying official filing name. No problem working out the facts and posting something NPOV and factual through an honest process of editing. I am skeptical about you though, based upon your contributions to other cult related sections and your response to criticism here. It seems to me that nothing less than an entry subject to your POV approval will ever satisfy you. Nevertheless let's try to work this out. But please support your edits with hard facts through research not name calling and your own subjective opinions.67.134.82.78 17:06, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Hey! I just leave you alone and you delete text without reason? It is a good thing that text does not disappear and it is available in the history. I would suggest thaat you slow way down and consult with other editors before you delete text without a good reason. The fact that the Ross institute is called what is called and the fact that it is only a shell, are all facts that are useful for the reader. Now, YOU try and stay within boundaries as I am not editing this article until the end of May. So you need to find ways to restrain yourself, without my counterbalance. Get help from Will. --Zappaz 17:50, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz--please try to calm down and understand that your POV doesn't make something a "fact." The last edit you did was not factual and based instead on your POV. Your claims about the Ross Institute of NJ are false. It is a nonprofit NJ corp. with tax-exempt status as recognized by the IRS. Sounds like you are reciting from the Scientology screed at "Religious Freedom Watch" rather than doing your own independent research. The "boundaries" I agree to stay within are determined by the facts not your POV.67.134.82.78 22:15, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Final NPOV Editing

Willmcw and others--One small error probably overlooked. "Scientology did not dispute this" was a reference to the Ross CV regarding his expert witness work. No need to keep these words with the current version.

The FBI has said it didn't initiate an interview with Ross, but he says they did. Shouldn't that be noted? See his "Letter to Janet Reno" [6]67.134.82.78 12:47, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Final? not so!

There is nothing "final" or NPOV about this current version. Will, I would have expected a more balanced approach... I mean, this article fails to recognize that fact that Ross is one of the most (if not the most) controversial figure in the anti-cult movement in the US. The article rides the waves of the scandals he was involved like these were no big deal.

1. His criminal record is elegantly brushed under the editorial carpet. I would suggest you read the judgments against him, in particular in the jewelry hoist and the bomb threat. Given his prominence and his claims of being "the good guy", presenting facts about his past is highly relevant to readers
2. when a jury ordered him to pay over two million dollars regarding the failed deprogramming of Jason Scott, The $2 million judgement was not related to a failed deprogramming. It was because the horrendous ordeal Ross put this person through. Please read the judgement.
3. The Ross institute: I have done some research (now removed from the article) that clearly shows that this "institute" is just a front for his "intervention" business
4. Regarding "Intervention specialist" is that another invention of Ross. Have you read the "intervention ethics" he wrote? How these compute against the judgement against him in the Jason case?
5. The Criticism section with one short paragraph fails to present the facts about this controversial character. Information about his critics is widely available and many documents preserved and made available online. There are also several websites with extensive dossiers on Ross. These are misteriously missing from the links section.
6. The "expert witness" claims. Failing to present that the last such engagement (in a divorce case) was eight years ago presents a distorted picture. Let's bring the facts about these cases (in a summarized way).

I intend to incorporate the factual information available about Ross and his past to this article, expand the criticism section and expand on the current business (or lack thereof) of Ross. I will do this when I have some more time, but hope that Will can incorporate some of the above to the current article. Ciao. --Zappaz 15:48, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz declares an edit war?

Just as previously predicted Zappaz will never be satisfied with anything less than a propaganda piece that represents his POV. He can't be NPOV. He has had his way pretty much at "cult," "anti-cult" and other related entries within Wikipedia. This guy has an agenda. The so-called "balanced approach" he advocates is nothing less than an ad hominem attack. Scientology's more than 200 pages of bashing Ross is already prominently linked, but that's not enough for him.

A little review to prove this point:

1. There was no "heist" or "bomb" the robbery was faked and Ross' partner in crime worked for the store. The charge was "embezzlement." This has nothing to do with his current work and according to my calculations occured some seven years before that. Ross was something like 22-years-old at the time. But despite the criminal record being cited twice, Zappaz, unlike a Superior Court judge that officially vacated the guilty verdicts over 20 years ago and the probation department that released Ross early in 1979, Zappaz isn't satisfied. Apprarently, the State of Arizona didn't mind quite that much since Ross was chairman of its state prison system religious advisory committee.

2. Here Zappaz seems to disagree with Jason Scott. Scott said he was "used" by Scientology very publicly on U.S. TV and no less than the Washington Post just before he fired his Scientology lawyer. He sold Ross the judgement, largely for what he originally sued over, which was Ross' consultation time.

3. The Rick A. Ross Institute is registered by the State of New Jersey as a nonprofit corp. and officially has been granted tax-exempt status by the US Internal Revenue Service, but Zappaz isn't happy about this and apparently rejects such official decisions.

4. The "ethical standards" Zappaz cites actually explain all this historically in context with pretty plain language. And Ross is referred to as a "deprogrammer" with plenty of details about the Scott case.

5. Zappaz wants to rant and have other rants included that agree with his POV. The whopper Scientology link with more than 200 pages is just not enough for him.

6. Even though Scinetology appraently can't cite anything to impeach Ross from appearing repeatedly as an expert witness Zappaz isn't satisfied. Somehow they just must have failed to mention that his CV is wrong and Zappaz wants to fix that too. Apparently Ross must now list every case to satisfy him.

Looks like Zappaz wants to have an "edit war."

Because in final analysis all he really cares about is his POV not Wikipedia or its users.67.134.82.78 18:33, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

.78 do you have references for the statement by Jason Scott that he was used by Scientology. Then it can god into the article. Andries 18:41, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Scott told the Washington Post "I want to let everyone know I'm fine, safe, very happy and making my own decisions now." He said this after Scientology lawyer Kendrick Moxon said "foul play" somehow was responsible for his sudden shift. (Washington Post December 23, 1996, "Plaintiff Shifts Stance on Anti-Cult Group" by Laurie Goodstein). [7] In another artile titled "Scientology's Revenge" the LA New Times reported "Scott now says he was used as a pawn of Scientology" (September 9, 1999 by Ron Russell). [8]

This has nothing to do with an edit war, and all to do with making this article accurate with FACTS. Note that your rethoric does not have any validity in these arguments, is superfluos, unwarranted and pathetic. When I do an edit that it is bad, or not NPOV, then tell me. The dossier that Scientology compiled on Ross contains quite a bit of commentary, but it is all supported by documentation not available elsewere. There are other dossiers available on the web with additional data. I intend to add as many references as needed so that readers can have access to information and facts and make up their own minds about this controversial anti-cultist. My take, and I hope you would agree unless you are related to Ross, is that facts speak for themselves only if you provide all the facts without embellishing them. In any case, you can relax as I do not intend to work on this for a few weeks. Hopefully by then, Andries, Will and others would have found make this article better researched. Take a break: a walk in the park does wonders for boiling blood woes. --Zappaz

"Superfluous, unwarranted and pathetic"? Sounds like an "edit war" to me. Thanks for noting your reliance on Scientology as a source for "documentation." It's good to know how you developed your POV. However, the mainstream media, both within the US and internationally, appear to disagree with you. Likewise the State of New Jersey, IRS and the State of Arizona authorities. Such sources seem to express more of a NPOV than Scientology. These are the "FACTS," though it doesn't seem like you care. You seem to see Wikipedia as a place to rant. Please do go for a long walk in the park and simmer down.67.134.82.78

No, anon. An edit war is when two editors engage in reverting/deleting the other's edits. As I have refrained from editing for a few weeks, you cannot call it an edit war. Andries: you can add the Scott about face. It is a well known and documented fact, although note that we are not discussing Scott's reversal, but the controversy Ross got himself involved in during his deprogramming activities, the falling of the CAN, etc. The Scott stuff is already explored in the Scott article in WP. --Zappaz 23:08, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz, someone else must be using your account. Someone calling themselves "Zappaz" has reverted this article about eight times in the last week. -Willmcw 04:25, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz--that controversy is rather dated 1995-1996 and there is no "controversy" reported now. The Scott case has been noted and was concluded some years ago. When the media quote Ross as a cult expert now they don't cite any "controvesy" from a decade ago. They quote him simply as a "cult expert." There is a growing controversy though regarding J. Gordon Melton. He has been paid by cults to write nice things about them. He was the "expert" the cult that gassed Tokyo's subways paid to fly in and defend them. [9]Perhaps you should be concerned about reflecting that growing controversy within academia in your own editing at Prem Rawat. Yet you cite Melton as a credible footnote. BTW why didn't you include meaningful balance about "the controversy [Guru Mahariji AKA "Prem Rawat"]got himself into." [10][11][12][13][14][15]Given that Prem Rawat is more commonly known as the notorious "cult leader" of "Divine Light Mission" your editing seems anything but NPOV.67.134.82.78 23:36, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

All that is already explored at Criticism of Prem Rawat. That has nothing to do with this article. Are you related to the Rick Ross institute by any chance? Or are you one of the ex-premies under disguise? --Zappaz 00:47, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

You gave me an idea: maybe we ought to do the same here: Have a short summary about the critics of RR and then create a new article Criticism of Rick Ross in which we can explore in-depth the controversy around Ross. There is plenty of material on that: about 200 pages worth. --Zappaz 02:02, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Sounds excessive, but fits your obsessive pattern of attack. For those interested a review of your contributions at the "Criticism of Prem Rawat" section is rather revealing regarding your agenda here at Wikipedia. The point of mentioning your work at the section on Prem Rawat is to demonstrate the way you have chosen to "gloss over" the controversy surrounding him and his actual history. This "guru" is more well-known as a "cult leader" historically than the way you have depicted him. Again, no mistaking POV for NPOV there. Anyone who has access to a media archive like LexisNexus [16] can easily look up "Guru Mahariji" or "Divine Light Mission" and find the facts reported through the mainstream press. You have also done your best to obscure the actual issues at "anti-cult movement" and "mind control" often ignoring historical facts, the payments from cults received by cult apologists (example Anson Shupe who made a bundle testifying for Scientology) and recent court findings regarding cult brainwashing in criminal trials such as Karen Robidoux, [17] Lee Boyd Malvo, Winnifred Wright [18] and Brian Mitchell/Elizabeth Smart. You seem to be on some sort of crusade concerning your POV. Does that make you an anti-"anti-cult activist"? Whatever, it doesn't serve those looking for facts here at Wikipedia.67.134.82.78 13:07, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Yep. You are either Rick Ross himself or a close associate attempting to gloss over your controversy. Welcome to Wikipieda. Regarding your acussations against me, please feel free to check my edits and challenge any of them (you will have plenty of company!). Concerning Prem Rawat, as I said, we have explored his controversy in depth in the relevant articles. Now we are working on yours. The fact that you are an anti-cultist, does not make you to be above scrutinity, on the contrary. For example, I intend to explore your essay on "ethics for intervention" that as you well know is mostly a copy from other ethic standards by real professionals, those that study, you know.) Yes, I have a bias, and so do you. That is the basis of editing WP articles on controversial subjects: people with opposing views working together to write articles in which these controversies can be described by providing facts. --Zappaz 15:09, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Wow. "You are either Rick Ross himself or a close associate" -- Wow! I've seen people put egg on their face by resorting ad hominem circumstantial arguments, but this hits a pretty impressive low. I guess this means Zappaz must be Prem Rawat! -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:36, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

About your assessment that I am an "anti-anti-cultist", I must tell you that I do prefer to be considered a person that cares for:

• Freedom of opinion
• Freedom of belief and religion
• Freedom of association
• Freedom of privacy
• Freedom of pursuit of happiness

and against:

• Bigotry
• Hate
• Religious intolerance
• Witch hunts
• Stupidity
• Narrow mindness
• Dogmatism

Here is my bias, then for all to see. --Zappaz 15:41, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz, in spite of your many attempts to explain yourself your motivation remains a mystery to me. Every person with a little bit of common sense knows that there are groups that are likely to harm its members and I do not understand how you cannot understand this. Even when I was an ignorant, self-deceived follower of SSB, I did not have any doubts about this, but I thought this would happen to other people not to me. People are free to pursue happiness in the way they prefer but becoming a devoted follower of an unreliable guru or religious group is a good away of either losing your rationality or fail to get the happiness that you pursue. And hate is natural response to abuse, betrayal, explotiation and deception. Please help to stop the abuse etc. by religious groups and their leaders first if you want to stop hate. Andries 17:22, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

You misread me completely. Of course I am aware of groups that have the potential to harm people. Same way that I am aware that drugs can harm people, violent video games can harm people, political ideas can harm people, etc etc etc etc. But it is not up you, me or a self-declared expert with or without formal training to decide if a person is right in following any religion or belief. That is an individual choice and it is protected by the constitution (at least in the US). Respect that. --Zappaz 18:39, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

"Self-declared expert"? That's a rather telling statement Zappaz. Sounds just a bit bitter. Isn't what's bothering you that your "narrow minded" POV has been rejected? The media, courts etc. have turned to Ross as an expert, and universities and colleges have invited him to lecture. Maybe you are upset because the websites of anti-"anti-cult" folks like CESNUR and Gordon Melton's "Institute for the Study of American Relgion rank so low on the WWW. For example CESNUR is ranked at about 90,000 and Mr. Melton's site is at well below 200,000, while the Ross Institute site is sitting at 30,000. [19] Even the old long-established "Relgious Tolerance" website pops up on the same page as the Ross Insitute when you search "cults" on Google. It appears that you want to use Wikipedia, which ranks at around 200, to vent views that have largely been dismissed as ill-informed apologetics in an attempt to ignore more widely held opinion and attack those you label "anti-cult."67.134.82.78 19:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Why don't you stop making unwarranted accusations about my motives. I have been trying to be civil but you are pushing the limits of my tolerance. Why are all anti-cultists so self-righteous? --Zappaz 20:21, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Now we can see what is anon's agenda: to use WP as a way to boost his website's prominence on Google.--Zappaz 20:29, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz please stop going on and try to control yourself. You are not making sense and all the name calling, personal attacks and posturing won't change the facts or add any weight to your POV.67.134.82.78 21:15, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Name calling? Posturing, personal attacks? You need to look at a mirror. I have been as civil as I can. The one doing the attacking is you. See you on June 1st. --Zappaz 22:11, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Anyone reading this exchange can judge that. "June 1st"? Sounds like when you can't have your way you declare an "edit war." 67.134.82.78 22:39, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Remaining potential edits

Willmcw--There are two aspects of the Ross entry that remain somewhat inaccurate. One, is that the deprogramming of two Waco Davidians was not a "claim," but rather at least one case was widely reported and documented. That is, one of the Davidians deprogrammed (David Block) is cited in the Treasury Report, in a book published, through news coverage and the affidavit filed by the BATF to obtain a warrant against Koresh. Second, the FBI says one thing about Ross, Ross' statement contradicts their version and then there is Ammerman. What is the best way to reflect all this controversy?67.134.82.78 13:52, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Just describe it as is, without editorializing. That simple. Readers can then chose who to believe. They are not stupid, you know? --Zappaz 15:44, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

One Davidian was deprogrammed by Ross as reported by the press, government, book etc. The second claimed was not reported about. Ross, Ammerman and FBI all tell different stories that conflict with each other. Simple enough?67.134.82.78 17:59, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz is largely correct. The WP:NPOV policy would have us represent each side. However marginal views should not receive the same amount of space as more widely-held views. Is there a particular view of Ross's that is not represented, or are there any views of others which are exaggerated? Cheers, -Willmcw 17:00, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

Looks like both the good and bad is there. Criminal record, Scott case, controversy, criticism, media, work record etc. All the points have been referred to and/or acknowledged with links for those who wish to read a more in-depth analysis.67.134.82.78 17:59, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Only thing is missing is to describe the controversy from the POV of his numerous critics. There is a lot of information online that can be used to present their POV. Given the controversy around Ross, this will be a good addition to the article. I also think that we need to replace the "failed deprogramming" in the intro with something better, because it implies that there is such a thing as "successful" deprogramming and that is just not NPOV. --Zappaz 18:30, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

No. The criticism is there along with the links. But something tells me you will never be satisfied. "Failed deprogramming" is an easy thing to understand. "Successful" would mean the person left the group. Jason Scott did not leave the group, and thus the deprogramming effort "failed." "Given the controversy around Ross." Now who is "editorializing"? This is a marginal view not a widely-held view, typically expressed by groups called "cults" and apologists associated with them. You won't find articles in the mainstream media about this imagined "controversy."67.134.82.78 19:05, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

External links are not enough. If there is a controversy, and there is unequivocally one (alleged lack of professional credentials, the demise of CAN and Jason Scott, Waco, FBI, etc., etc. etc.), we need to describe it. It there are detractors and they voice a contrarian opinion, these need to be presented. The current criticism section is way too small given the amount of criticism available on Ross. There are also scholars that are very critical of Ross, such as Douglas Cowen (considered an apologist by Ross an other anti-cultists) that challenge Ross claim to "professionalism". These POVs need to be also added, of course with the specifics of who are these (i.e. groups attacked by Ross, or "apologists") without taking sides on the controversy. It has nothing to do with me being satisfied or not. Thank God, my satisfaction does not depends on Wikipedia. Regarding the "failed" deprogramming wording, I am sure other editors will agree with me that it is a poor choice of words, and one that has implicit connotations of approval of such methods, and thus not NPOV. A better choice of words, that I propose would be: the failed attempt at the forceful abduction and deprogramming of Jason Scott. --Zappaz 20:15, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Also note that the "Current activities' list many activities that are not so current. --Zappaz 20:48, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz you really are grasping now. Ross' career in the cult field spans more than 20 years. "regarding the failed deprogramming" could be changed to "regarding the failed attempt to 'deprogram' Jason Scott..." elsewhere the words "deprogrammer," "deprogrmming" and "deprogram" could be placed within quotation marks. The details regarding the Scott case are spelled out plainly in that subsequent section, such as the criminal case, civil case etc. All of your other points are also already included. The criticism about Ross is noted repeatedly, footnoted and hyper linked.67.134.82.78 21:15, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I'll be glad to see that you make that edit (the failed attempt at the forceful abduction and deprogramming of Jason Scott), although I would remove the quotation marks around "deprogram". And I will come back to edit the article on June 1st, to add the POV of the critics of this controversial anti-cultist, as promised. Hopefully by then, other more amicable editors to your POV would have helped as well. I may also ask for a RfC to invite other editors to have a look. --Zappaz 22:09, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like you are grasping once again. "More amicable editors"? Essentially "amicable" appers to mean doing what Zappaz wants and agreeing with him/her. Again, seems like when you can't have your way it's an "edit war."67.134.82.78 22:39, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

None of us should get our way. This is a project to build an encyclopedia. Regarding the quotation marks I don't see the need for them myself. "Deprogram" is the correct and relevant word to use for the earlier activities of Ross. Quotation marks, or scare quotes, usually denotes that the term is being used dubiously or ironically. I don't see the need for that here. Regarding the Scott case, let's call it "unsuccessful." That's incrementally less POV than "failed". The article goes into detail about the case later. I see that some critics are specifically quoted, and others alluded to throughout the article. As far as improving the article goes, I'd suggest it could use more specific biographical information. Was Ross born in Arizona? Most recent activities? Regarding June 1: as with all dates, it's a great occasion to make NPOV summaries of verifiable information. -Cheers, -Willmcw 11:32, May 21, 2005 (UTC)

OK. Born in Cleveland, Ohio 1952, familiy moved to Arizona in 1956 lived there until 2001 then moved to Jersey City, New Jersey in 2001. Lives there now. Graudated high school in 1971. Launched website in 1996 Ross Insitute established in 2003. [20][[21]][22][[23]]other references to court expert work [24][25]67.134.82.78 14:39, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the research! Cheers, -Willmcw 01:48, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

Research? ;) --Zappaz 07:05, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

;)

Yep. Facts were requested as opposed to propaganda.67.134.82.78 13:36, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Edits by Zappaz

I am a bit late with this, but finally managed to get this done. These are my edits. Please note that each and every one of these edits is supported by well researched references.

• The $2 million judgement against him was not because an "unsusccesful" deprograming, but using Ross own words because of "unlawful imprisonment". This is now reflected in the intro.
• Ross Institute full name and link to GuideStar (the US registry of non-profit organizations) in which it is reported that the "institute" had income of less than 25K, meaning that it is not required to file tax records. This is important as it presents an the relative importance of the Institute.
• Added "title" given by some media outlets ("cult buster")
• Presented criticism by Scientology and some religion scholars and people related to the Waco tragedy
• Links to references about Ross in extensive documentation and critique regarding his controversial involvement in the Waco tragedy.
• Expanded on Jason Case, mainly quoting from the transcripts of the judgement against him
• Criticism against Ross from Christain organizations, Kabbalah center and people
• Extended additions of external links section

--Zappaz 8 July 2005 04:51 (UTC)

And you thoughtfully waited until you had the entire article revised to your liking and then presented all your changes en masse as a fait accompli. Very smooth. -- Antaeus Feldspar 9 July 2005 01:01 (UTC)

That is called research. I went to the library, checked some websites and consulted some people. When I had all the facts, I made the edit. I think the article reads better and it is more comprehensive. --Zappaz 9 July 2005 04:34 (UTC)

No, research is what you do to make sure your edits are accurate (or in certain people's cases, at least more outwardly plausible.) There is no connection between "doing research for one's edits" and "51 out of 52 consecutive edits to an article." -- Antaeus Feldspar 9 July 2005 17:32 (UTC)

I have no clue on what are you complaining about. I did my edits after seaearching the subject over a period of sevelar weeks. After I did my edits, I contacted Willmcw, whom I respect regardless of our oppossing views on this subject, so that he could take a look and help NPOVing my edits if needed be. --Zappaz 21:44, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

LOL --AI 01:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

-I removed the "See also" seciton because all of the links in it were already in the "Cult template". -Willmcw July 8, 2005 22:21 (UTC)

Thanks. I did not see the template. --Zappaz 9 July 2005 04:34 (UTC)

I have returned the entry to its final edited form before Zappaz again attempted to use Wikipedia for his or her personal polemic and rant. If Wikipedia is going to be taken seriously as a resource of information people like Zappaz will probably have to be reigned in. Otherwise, it is likely to be considered a strange collection of rants from the fringe, instead of objective information. Anyone that follows Zappaz's editing objectively can see his or her purpose here is to build a biased attack, not inform the public. He or she apparently has a history of involvement with a purported "cult" and is angry about those who inform the public about cults. In an effort to discredit a major source of such information Zappaz is here slinging mud. Isn't anyone going to be responsible? The sources Zappaz has chosen are cults, cult apologists often paid by cults and wacko conspiracy theroists. Anything or anyone that supports his or her views, no mattter how biased, specious or unreliable. For example, Anson Shupe has been well-paid by Scientology. He testified in the Scott case for Scientology lawyer Kendrick Moxon and made out very well financially. Nancy Ammerman has been featured in a Scientology magazine and lionized there. The Kabbalah Centre spokesperson quoted has a vested interest in protecting his turf, reportedly now under investigation by the IRS for nonprofit status violations. Ross cooperated to expose the group and was quoted in a Radar Magazine series recently run. The Ross Institute has a very large archive of news reports on the Kabbalah Centre and the group clearly doesn't like people reading it. Despite Zappaz's attempt to dismiss Ross and the Ross Institute, anyone that follows cults knows he and the institute database are perhaps the most widely quoted resource about cults and controversial groups cited by the media. A simple look at Web site rankings demonstrates the same. Time Magazine called Ross a "veteran cultwatcher" and the Ross Institute is cited by People Magazine this month in an article. Ross has appeared for years in media reports. Zappaz may not like all this and dislike Ross personally, but this is his or her POV not NPOV.

Occupation

What is Rick Ross' occupation? Deprogrammer ? --AI 01:43, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

The current article says that he is a former deprogrammer. His current occupation seems to be researcher. -Willmcw 02:12, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

AI, Ross is a former deprogrammer, but today he calls himself an "intervention specialist" or a "exit counselor", although he has no professional credentials in counseling (these terms are mostly Ross' invention). Depending who you ask (read the article), his occupation is:

• a cult expert
• a self-professed cult buster
• a media whore
• an anti-religious bigot

Clearly, Ross is in the "anti-cult" business: Ross makes his money on "interventions" (non-coercive deprogramming, really), on court appearances (nowadays mostly on divorce cases, when one spouse accuses the other of being in a "cult" or in other 'familiar' disputes), being interviewed by the press, or acting as a cult-expert "consultant".

One thing is remarkable about this person: his resilience. After being busted in the Jason case and his deprograming business and reputation destroyed, and after the ill fated Waco standoff, he bounced back and he is still in business. It seems that in the US, no matter what you do, if you grab some headlines, you can make a living... --Zappaz 03:52, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you're going to bring up the matter of income, the cult business seems to pay much better than the anti-cult business. Compared to some (so-called) cult leaders, Ross is barely scraping along. Do you think it would be appropriate for the article to compare his lifestyle with theirs? That'd be interesting! Also, I don't see any mention of anyone calling him a "whore" in the article. Please keep a professional tone. Thanks, -Willmcw 04:38, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, but if you do... *drumroll* RESEARCH!!! that allows you to call people "whore". -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:02, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey..! both of you relax and read what I wrote, please....

(a) I did not call anyone a "whore", I said that some critics consider Ross a media whore:

From media whore: -those of limited notability who go out of their way to gain the attention of various media outlets, namely reality television personalities. - those who use their access to such outlets to promote a particular commercial or ideological message.

Reading the criticism leveled against Ross, the term media whore fits like a glove in describing these critics' POV.

You may be European, because when you say a person is a media whore in the US, everybody understand what that means.

(b) The matter of income is not a criticism, just information that is relevant to the article. The fees he charges are stated on his website. I found it quite interesting, that an apostate testimony is worth $500 a day.

This article is about Ross, the abundant controversy around him and his resilience as a businessman. Cult leaders have their own article, where their income is explored and criticized. --Zappaz 03:03, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Does the article state that "some critics call him a media whore" ? It should, if Wikicontributors are going to be consistent with other controversial articles... --AI 13:21, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

(Sarcasm) I am a critic of Rick Ross and I think he is a Manchurian Candidate ;D Shouldn't the article reflect my criticism? --AI 13:24, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

external link removed

I was going to check this link to see if the title really was "Cult Awareness brainwashers, Galen Kelly exposed at last" and if so, put that in quotes to make it clear that it's the article's description. Except I found out that a) you can't follow the link directly (making it of dubious usefulness to have on the article page) and b) it's of dubious quality as well. You can read it yourself, you just have to go to the main page first and then scroll down. An excerpt from the first paragraph:

Kelly is not just

another thug; he is part of an international apparatus of Israeli, American, and British secret intelligence communities' "wetworks" capability. Kelly is on the board of JINSA, the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, a liaison group between Israeli and American military establishments that is suspected of having been at the center of the Jonathan Pollard spy ring. Kelly is also the security henchman and a paid

operative of CAN.

And so on. It's not even about Ross; he is mentioned in ten consecutive sentences in the first paragraph, almost all of it background information that anyone would already know from having read the article. This link adds nothing except the not terribly surprising news that the Lyndon LaRouche movement, often accused of being a cult is among Ross's critics; the home of "Executive Intelligence Review" is http://www.larouchepub.com . -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:53, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't care where the article comes from. It is an article about the Waco controversy in which Ross and his involvement in the affair are mentioned. That is the reason for inclusion, and it needs to stay. --Zappaz 04:08, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

On seconds thoughts and after reading the article again, I, for once, agree with Antaeus. Link deleted. --Zappaz 04:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Good call. Also, LaRouche sites have been deemed by the ArbCom to be too unreliable to use as references. Cheers, -Willmcw 04:17, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Removed some repetitions. Also removed deprogrammer in the first paragraph - it is, later on, correctly mentioned, that he was a deprogrammer, but he is not one now, so this should not be in the first para. --Irmgard 10:52, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Removed Quote from www.religiousfreedomwatch.org. The link to the page is ok, but the formulations on it are too biased to be cited in an encyclopedia. --Irmgard 10:42, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I have returned the entry to its final edited form before Zappaz again attempted to use Wikipedia for his or her personal polemic and rant. If Wikipedia is going to be taken seriously as a resource of information people like Zappaz will probably have to be reigned in. Otherwise, it is likely to be considered a strange collection of rants from the fringe, instead of objective information. Anyone that follows Zappaz's editing objectively can see his or her purpose here is to build a biased attack, not inform the public. He or she apparently has a history of involvement with a purported "cult" and is angry about those who inform the public about cults. In an effort to discredit a major source of such information Zappaz is here slinging mud. Isn't anyone going to be responsible? The sources Zappaz has chosen are cults, cult apologists often paid by cults and wacko conspiracy theroists. Anything or anyone that supports his or her views, no mattter how biased, specious or unreliable. For example, Anson Shupe has been well-paid by Scientology. He testified in the Scott case for Scientology lawyer Kendrick Moxon and made out very well financially. Nancy Ammerman has been featured in a Scientology magazine and lionized there. The Kabbalah Centre spokesperson quoted has a vested interest in protecting his turf, reportedly now under investigation by the IRS for nonprofit status violations. Ross cooperated to expose the group and was quoted in a Radar Magazine series recently run. The Ross Institute has a very large archive of news reports on the Kabbalah Centre and the group clearly doesn't like people reading it. Despite Zappaz's attempt to dismiss Ross and the Ross Institute, anyone that follows cults knows he and the institute database are perhaps the most widely quoted resource about cults and controversial groups cited by the media. A simple look at Web site rankings demonstrates the same. Time Magazine called Ross a "veteran cultwatcher" and the Ross Institute is cited by People Magazine this month in an article. Ross has appeared for years in media reports. Zappaz may not like all this and dislike Ross personally, but this is his or her POV not NPOV.

There is nothing in my edits to this article that is not referenced and supported by citations. You are welcome to make corrections, if indeed I made any mistakes. You are also most welcome to add text related to the Time Magazine. People Magazine and Radar Magazine. That would be excellent. Please note that I have nothing personal against Mr. Ross. I would suggest that you read NPOV to familiarize yourself with Wikipedia and with its policies. --Zappaz 23:49, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

It does not inspire confidence in your devotion to NPOV, Zappaz, that when the intro we had, which very carefully described the fact that many people regard Ross as a cult expert without endorsing the idea that he is one, was edited to directly call him a cult expert, you did not move to restore the true version, but instead inserted the biased qualifier "self-professed", giving the demonstrably false impression that no one but Ross himself considers him a cult expert. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:29, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with being self-professed. On the contrary. It shows entrepreneurship and ingenuity. The "many people regard his as a cult expert" is POV, because there are people that considrer him the total opposite. So we can say that some media refer to him as a cult expert, and that is already there: Britain's FHM magazine named Rick Ross "America's number one cult buster." The New York Daily News referred to Ross as a "Self-styled cult buster."--ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 20:36, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

So you're saying it would be okay to acknowledge the fact that some people regard him as a cult expert, only if everyone regarded him as a cult expert? That is essentially how your argument reads: because there are some people who do not regard him as a cult expert, you will insert the "self-professed" qualifier to give the false impression that no one but Ross regards him as a cult expert. To put it mildly, the logic of that does not hold up upon examination. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Again, there is nothing wrong in being "self-professed". We can change it to "self-taught" if you wish. But that is a fact: His "expertise", is self-taught and self-professed. We cannot hide that fact. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 05:40, 22 July 2005 (UTC).

I can think of lots of people to whom we could add "self-styled" to describe their titles. Just because other people also call them by that title doesn't mean that it isn't self-professed. Jesus - self-professed Son of God. Why stop with Ross? ;) -Willmcw 07:55, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz, your bias is easy to follow. You have selected sources and quotes from people who share your view as previously pointed out. You are here for polemics. The earlier version has been restored again (this version was up for some time), sorry you don't like it. The overwhelming majority of press reports and media broadcasts introduce Ross simply as a "cult expert" without qualification. Anyone following news through Google can see that. The Ross Institute is a heavily used resource and often linked to, you may not like that, but that is a fact. BTW--Waco and David Koresh are most often cited as examples of a crazy cult leader and his followers. And the Scott case has been reported as an example of Scientology using the courts to go after its perceived enemies. Your quotes and editing don't reflect that. Time to do a reality check. Again, let's try to offer a reliable and factual entry as opposed to a collection of POV entries from the fringe.

My bias is stated on my user page. I sincerely encourage you to read Wikipedia Neutral Point of View, as it will help you understand what Wikipedia is, how it works and what is considered a good article. It will also help you understand objectivity and bias as it pertains to NPOV. Please follow these links. Thanks. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 20:56, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz, your bias is the modern view of tolerance 21 century - from that point of view almost all attempts to change someones religion by any means are immoral and having deprogrammed people is worse than having a heavy criminal history (religioustolerance.org). Well I am two years older than Rick Ross - that's an earlier generation. And I grew up with the idea that the worst thing on earth is not intolerance of any kind but totalitaranism and indocrination of any kind - especially in the fields of religion or politics. In that generation it was generally seen as legitimate to free people from a totalitarian group and indoctrination in general by informing them about different views, even if they had to be forced to listen - the main point was, that they were free to make their own choice after the procedur (I was never a deprogrammer or something like that, but I can relate to this attitude from having shared the general worldview of the time). Actually, many adherents of NRMs which developed in the sixties and seventies even today think like that: anything goes, if people are as a result more free (with freedom defined in the terms of the respective group) - in Scientology, for example, this is until today official teaching in internal documents I have studied). But most of those people who are not adherents of groups like Scientology have learned in the meantime, that deprogramming using force or threats is not the right way to treat people - also Rick Ross. He hasn't deprogrammed anyone by force or threats for many years. To call him now a former deprogrammer in the first sentence of his article is about as correct as calling the German minister of Foreign Affairs a former enemy of the government in the same place (which you also could find evidence for, looking in the archives of conservative newspapers) - but though factual, in both cases such a description does not give a picture of the person as he is now. Sure, in both cases such information should be mentioned in the article - its part of the history of the person, but its not part of the present character of the person (even though Fischer does not agree with Bush regarding environment and Ross is still no fighter for absolute tolerance). I don't know what experience you personally have regarding NRMs - and regarding which NRMs. Well, I have. Do you know, that high-ranking (not top-level) staff of Scientology are not permitted to make a phone call to their family without some witness from the ethics department listening in to prevent any possible way of counter-Scientology influence? That every single letter they receive from their family is first read by the ethics department? And that they are convinced that this is ok, ok for themselves, ok for their friends who are also on staff? Scientologists are told that they are the freest people on earth - and they believe that even under those circumstances. (been there, done that). Could you imagine that you would assent to such a situation under any circumstances? I would not have done so at twenty and not at forty and not now - and yet I did hold such views at thirty and did not know how and when I changed my mind to do it (and it was outside information offered by people like Rick Ross which made me see my error). And can you understand that some people do regard absolute tolerance in such a case similar to absolute tolerance regarding wife beaters or child molesters or Stalinist officials? Rick Ross does see it like that. He is no saint - never was and in all probability never will be - but it is definitely wrong to describe persons like him as a sort of enemy of freedom or enemy of humanity just because twenty years ago they had different convictions than you think correct today and had a) then the courage to act upon their convictions despite the no-holds-barred hostility of organizations like Scientology and b) had the courage to learn and to improve their methods later on. --Irmgard 23:07, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I do not know much about Scientology and I am very much against totalitarism, of any kind. The edits I made on this article are neither supportive of the former or aligned with the latter. Your discourse on the nature of freedom and tolerance is interesting, but I respectfully disagree with it. Read the quote from Thomas Jefferson on userspace, and you will get a sense of what my position is in regard of religious freedom. IMO, bigotry takes many shapes and forms, and one of them is impinging in a person's right to follow a certain belief, no matter what that belief is or how alien can be to another person. The paternalistic approach of annti-cultists (i.e. people get brainwashed, and we can protect them or extricate them from it, poor souls) is repugnant in my opinion and against basic principles of respect for people's choices and freedoms.

Back to this article. The reasons that make Ross notable enough to be featured in WP is that:

• He was a deprogrammer
• He was sued for deprogramming a person, was bankrupted and triggered the demise of the Cult Awareness Network;
• He ceased being a deprogrammer after that;
• He was involved in the Waco standoff in a very controversial manner (if one is to judge by the amount of material on Ross available out there);
• He has a website that lists hundreds of groups: The Rick A. Ross Institute has assembled one of the largest databases of information about controversial groups, some called "cults," and related information on the Internet, listing anything from Wicca to Mormons to Kabbalah.
• He does not have any credentials or professional training as a counselor, and still calls himself an "intervention specialist";
• He gets quoted by the media as a cult expert;

Each one of the facets are covered in the article. If I have done a poor job of presenting Ross in these facets above, please help me make it better. Thanks. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:09, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I left all this information in the article, but I removed a quote from distorted web page and an anonymous biased second source (compare to religioustolerance.org regarding quality - the difference is obvious).

Regarding the CAN story - this was not triggered by Ross but planned and executed by Scientology who have a proven record of similar actions (their main goal in this case was to get CAN removed, though they sure had no scruples involving also Ross, who is also on the list of their enemies). So it is sure ok to mention the Jason suit and CAN involvement - but Ross as trigger is at least very disputed.

And once more back to tolerance - Anti-cultists including Rick Ross (and contrary to the countercult movement) usually don't care about exotic beliefs as such - the advocate informed consumer decisions on the field of religion (ok with them if you to go into the strictist Catholic or Buddhist monastery, if you are informed beforehand fully what to expect and what the rules and drawbacks are and can make a free decision). What they mainly oppose is a) members of exotic belief groups selling their beliefs using wrong or incomplete information of the public (compare e.g. a Scientology.org to the Xenu article), and b) such groups using methods which reduce the freedom of their members to leave like, e.g. restricting their information, slandering opponents. As a practical example: the Freezone movement has the almost the same religious teachings as Scientology but no repressive practices, and it finds not much opposition within the anti-cult movement - the only active enemies they have are Scientologists. --Irmgard 10:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Recent edits by Irmgard

Religiousfreedomwatch.org. I deleted the quote from this website. This website by Scientology is too biased to be a reliable source for an encyclopedia.The information in it is consciously distorted to show Scientology critics as bad as possible. It's quality regarding facts is at best on the level of an election campaign.

It can be referenced to illustrate how Scientology describes someone, but should not be quoted in the encyclopedia text nor should the information in it be taken at face value. --Irmgard 09:27, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I moved "current activities" to "life" to get some structure into the article. Also I removed double referral to his counseling qualifications and shortened the introduction. All facts mentioned by Zappaz are in the article (and should remain there), but there is no need to repeat them several times (makes the article just longer, not more interesting).

Remainder of your committment to keep all the facts in the article. Your deletions are challeged one by one below. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:37, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I also removed the link to rickrossexposed - a biased anonymous website is not up to an encyclopedial level. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources, especially [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Evaluating secondary sources --Irmgard 09:56, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your involvement. The introduction needs to reflect the aspects of Ross life that are notable. After all, this man was a deprogrammer, and boasts of having deprogrammed 100's of people. Read Colombrito vs. Kelly, where the Court accepted the definition of deprogramming by J. Le Moult published in 1978 in the Fordham Law Review:

Deprogrammers are people who, at the request of a parent or other close relative, will have a member of a religious sect seized, then hold him against his will and subject him to mental, emotional, and even physical pressures until he renounces his religious beliefs. Deprogrammers usually work for a fee, which my easily run as high as $25,000. The deprogramming process begins with abduction. Often strong me muscle the subject into a car and take him to a place where he is cut from everyone but his captors. he may be held against his will for upward of three weeks. Frequently, however, the initial deprogrammingonly last a few days. The subject's sleep is limited and he is told that he will not be released until his beliefs meet his captors' approval. Members of the deprogramming group, as well as members of the family, come into the room where the victim is held and barrage him with questions and denunciations until he recants his newly found religion :

Why a person that engaged in such denigrating and violent activity, suddenly stopped? Because of the judgements against him and others like him. I don't care if it was Scientology or the devil itself that made him stop, but you must agree that the fact that deprogramming is no longer acceptable in our society is a good thing. Then this man decides to become an "intervention specialist" as an "exit counselor". This, without professional credentials and/or training. What would you say if you see a torturer from the Pinochet era in Chile, becoming an expert in non-coercive interrogation techniques, and then have the chutzpah of publishing a code of ethics for interrogators? You would be shocked and disgusted.

The intro must reflect that he was a former deprogrammer, that he was and still is controversial, and that he does not have any professional accreditation. I have made small edits to the intro, but expect you to add back some material about Ross deprogramming past. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:06, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Controversial in the intro - yes, that's ok. But the deprogrammer - sorry, that seems to be your favorite bugbear. Your ideas about the motivation of his change might be correct or not, but they are not encyclopedic facts, not even when adversaries of Ross assert it (they don't know much more about his inner motives than you do). And the fact he has worked out ethical standards for intervention work shows that he did have a throough look at the problems: http://www.rickross.com/ethics.html. Regarding professional training for intervention specialists - this is neither prescribed nor available on the market, so it's not necessarily his fault, that he hasn't any - BTW he never said he had. That he has no academic credentials is correct and is in the article.

I removed the Kabbalah Centre section - that's two short remarks, one which is already mentioned in the bio, the other a personal opinion by the leader of a group on which Ross has collected (not written) quite some articles. I did mention the Kabbalah Center under his critics, though.

Sorry, this is also not encyclopedic - no source and just opinion, therefore removed here:

"Critics assert that hubris and personal financial reward are Ross' primary motive for his anti-cult activities. "

I did mention some additional facts regarding criticism - his history with Shupe and Hassan and the reason for his problems with Hein.

I removed the daily news Website - no facts and just some opinions of adversaries of Ross, that's not encyclopedic information ("One apparent supporter of Kabbalah Centre founder Philip Berg E-mailed me yesterday to describe Ross - who runs a New Jersey-based nonprofit that describes its mission as the study of cults - as "disreputable.") Added instead the responses of Hassan and Hein.

I did not find this on his Website. Please give the exact reference for it.

On the FAQ of his website, Ross states that the average intervention costs about $5,000.00, excluding payment for testimonies of former members ($500 per day), travel expenses, or if additional research is needed. --Irmgard 18:15, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Here it is [26] --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 18:34, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Ok. I removed the stuff about former members costs (that's up to them not to Rick Ross - sure he has to mention it for his clients, but it does not belong into an encyclopedia about Ross) and added the hourly rate, so there is a comparative basis. --Irmgard 12:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Rick Ross FAQ does not mention testimonies, unlike what Wikipedia writes

" * What does an intervention cost? My fees are currently $75.00 per hour or $750.00 per day when I work out of town. This does not include expenses such as travel, accommodations or other related expenses. An average intervention costs about $3,750.00 in fees plus expenses, which are usually below $1,000. This means that the total cost of an intervention should run about $5,000.00. The cost of an intervention may be somewhat higher if special research is required, a former member of a destructive group is brought in to assist and/or substantial travel time is required.Former members typically charge a fee of about $350.00 to $500.00 per day depending upon their experience. An intervention professional should have a detailed fee agreement that itemizes and explains his or her fee structure, costs associated with an intervention and outlines the terms of the intervention explicitly (see Ethical Standards)."

Andries 23:33, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I re-added the distinctions voiced by the press, as these are important. I also add the fact that he was a former deprogrammer. He was. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 18:34, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

To anon 67.134.82.77

I suggest, yet again, you read WP:NPOV, before you edit. I would also suggest you read Wikipedia: What Wikipedia is not.

• Ross was not "once called a “cult deprogrammer” ". He was a deprogrammer. And proud of it. The judge at Scott case said (my highlights): “A large award of punitive damages is also necessary under the recidivism and mitigation aspects of the factors cited in Haslip. Specifically, the Court notes that Mr. Ross himself testified that he had acted similarly in the past and would continue to conduct 'deprogrammings' in the future.”
• maintains what is now one of the largest databases accessible through the Internet is spin. He maintains a website like many others do.
• Time Magazine referred to him as “a veteran cult watcher." I kept that text, but we need a refrence for that article.

--ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 17:45, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz there you go again. Be honest you are on a crusade and not interested in anything but a POV polemic filled with fringe website references that you search out to support your POV. Carol Moore is a widely known a fringe conspiracy theorist. Her views on Waco have been disproven. Ammerman, Shupe, Wessinger have all been part of a cult apologist crowd that has become increasingly controversial within academia. Shupe cashed in on the Scott case and charged big bucks to work for Scientology lawyer Moxon. The Hadden website, CESNUR site etc. are to say the least very biased sources and not at all mainstream. Hadden was exposed before he died as a cult supporter through a document leaked through the Internet. You are attempting to "stack the deck" and create an ad hominem attack not inform the public. Your list of why Ross is noteworthy demonstrates how disconnected you are. No one quotes Ross over the Scott case, which took place some ten years ago. No one is calling him about Waco, which occurred in 1993. He is quoted through TV and in the press again, and again, and again as a cult expert commenting within breaking news stories. Your view of him is certainly skewed and not shared by the media. Just in the last month he has been all over the place quoted everywhere about Scientology, the Kabbalah Centre etc. Is that why you are here? Because you are mad the media doesn't take anything people like you say seriously? But why make Wikipedia look bad through your POV, which is not objective or fact based. You have searched the net for a few fringe sources that share your view, but again this is the behavior of a zealot on a crusade, not an editor working at Wikipedia. Why not admit that your purpose for being here is to go after people. This would be more honest than boring everyone with excuses and denials. The most recent editing I have done is fair and balanced. It allows some of your favorite cranks their space, but with some context and balancing articles. It is fact based and not a rant. This king of entry is more in line with the intention of Wikipedia as an informational resource as opposed as your personal place to go after people.

This article is not about what you think is proper, neither about what I think is proper. It is also not an advertisement for Mr. Ross' business. It is a biographical article on Mr. Ross, and as such any notable biographical element needs to be featured regardless of when it happened. Again, let me made it absolutely clear, that I have nothing personal against Mr. Ross. For the fifth time, I encourage you to read NPOV so that you become familiar with the intention of Wikipedia as an informational resource. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 20:02, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. That why you need to actually practice what you preach. Stop the spin. Your intentions are obvious. It's very clear that for you this is apparently personal. Your editing reflects that. I understand. Perhaps you need to read NPOV again to understand that when people are not willing to let you have your way it is not a misunderstanding of either your editing or Wikipedia, but rather quite the opposite. You are the one who inists on posting a very slanted, biased bio that serves your own POV.

It is clear from Zappaz' edits, and Zappaz admits this, that he wants to minimize criticism of cults and new religious movements in Wikipedia, that he considers exaggerated. Part of this are his attempts to undermine the credibility of almost everyone who makes these criticisms. Andries 22:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

That is tantamount to a personal attack. I would suggest that you desist from that path and address the issues at hand: Stopping the ongoing vandalism of this article by anon. Thanks. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:29, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I do not see this as a personal attack: I think I accurately described your edit behavior, your POV (to a great extent self-admitted) without passing a judgement on any of them. Andries 00:55, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Personal comments of any kind are not called for. If there is an issue with a particular editor, discuss it on their talk page, file an RfC, or find someplace else to discuss it. However, editors who make personal assertions regarding their editing should expect to have those assertions open to challenge. -Willmcw 01:17, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Former deprogrammer in the introduction

Zappaz, you seem to be the only one who wants the deprogrammer in the introduction - please accept the "no academic credentials" instead.

That is unacceptable. The fact that he was a deprogrammer is highly relevant in this biography. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:10, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Accreditation

deleted: (Note: Ross has no professional accreditation in counseling)

No accreditation for "counseling" is nonsense - Rick Ross offers speficially cult intervention (exit counseling) which consists by his definition of sharing cult-specific information - which is not the same as psychological or spiritual counseling. An accredited psychiatrist has by his accreditation no qualification for exit counseling and Ross does not have the qualification for counseling someone regarding psychological problems. The point is, Ross does not offer that, but only exit counseling. In the introduction is stated that he has no academic credentials which is correct and does not suppose or infer anything additional. --Irmgard 12:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

He was a deprogrammer, he calls himself a "professional" and "intervention specialist" and an "exit counselor". I attempted to present his views as per his website on what terms mean (as mostly are his invention) but you deteled them (my objection to that deletion noted). Read his website and see if he does not present himself as an expert. Read the judge in Scott case. Then with a straight face tell me that is not important to state in Ross article that he does not have any professional credentials. Highly relevant. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:22, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

rickross.com

This page is not only referred to by the anti-cult movement and the University of Virginia but also, e.g. by the Press, by concerned parents, etc. etc. (anyway, we have no statistics who is clicking there why). So I shortened the sentence. That it is widely referred to is documented by Google which lists it among the top ten when searching for "cults". --Irmgard 12:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Ross website is widely cited by anti-cult movement only. If you want to say that his website is widely cited by the press, then provide such citation. I have not seen any citation of Ross "database" as a source. The fact thar Ross website is listed in Google when searching for cult, proves nothing. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Deprogramming

Changed: In recent year Ross, like much of the anti-cult community after the controversy and court cases against his deprogramming business, no longer advocates involuntary or coercive interventions for adults, preferring instead what he refers to as voluntary "exit counseling".

The section below is reverted to the former one - it does not correctly reflect what Ross himself writes on his ethical guidelines page http://www.rickross.com/ethics.html --Irmgard 12:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I also removed the section Deprogramming - it is taken out of context and gives a wrong impression, as it presumes a different definition of deprogramming than the one of Ross (see http://www.rickross.com/ethics.html where he also quotes Hassan's and Singer's definitions and http://www.rickross.com/reference/deprogramming/deprogramming7.html). If you want to quote Ross on deprogramming, quote his actual definition of deprogramming : "The first title used was "deprogrammer," which specifically describes the process of unraveling a destructive cult's program of emotional, psychological and informational control." But I think discussion of deprogramming should be left to the article Deprogramming and taken up in detail there. --Irmgard 12:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Unacceptable. That text is very much supported by statements made on Ross website. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Distinction by the press

The distinction by the press does not offer any additional facts to ...he has been interviewed and quoted by the media as a cult expert in the United States and around the world, and has numerous critics'. It's very ok to have this on the discussion site as source, but in the article its just taking space. --Irmgard 12:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Britain's FHM magazine named Rick Ross "America's number one cult buster", the New York Daily News referred to Ross as "Self-styled cult buster" and Time Magazine referred to him as “a veteran cult watcher."

Unacceptable. The way that Ross is refered in the press, attributed to magazines is 100% relevant to Ros biography. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

WACO References

I removed these references: the first is a biased third source report, not an encyclopedial reference, the second contains a set of biased questions to congress. The third one moved to Branch Davidians article, says more about them than about Ross --Irmgard 12:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• New Dawn magazine, issue 6: "Cult Awareness Network Brainwashers urged attack on Waco"
• Questions for Congress About "Waco" BATF AND FBI Crimes Against the Branch Davidians, by the Commitee for Waco Justice
• Branch Davidians Religious Movements website, University of Virginia

Unacceptable. This is a milestone in Ross life work. You cannot remove text just because you believe is biased. This is contrary to NPOV. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Database

Why are we removing the word "database"? It seem to describe a colleciton of data, usch as what Ross has on his website. -Willmcw 19:03, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

It is not a database, it is a website. The previous text one of the largest databases accessible through the Internet is just spin. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 19:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

What's the difference between a database accessible through a website, and a website? -Willmcw 20:17, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Ross's website is not a database accessible through a website. Just a website. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 23:31, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

This is just another example of Zappaz' attempt to spin. The Ross Institute database contains a huge amount of news articles, court documents, personal testimonies. It has a message board with around 10,000 entries. It's a database obviously, but in the world Zappaz inhabits reality is apparently subjective. He has his own little domed world. How dare the media and everyone in the mainstream news think otherwise. Any cursory objective review of news articles shows how ridiculous he is. Maybe that's why he is spending so much time on Ross. His database is probably filled with information Zappaz doesn't like. Not unlike the "cults" that don't like Ross for the same reason. It's the database, not Ross that really irks them. It's something about having all that information so readily accessible.

(Psst... I do not have a problem with information. That is why I am working on this article.) --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 23:18, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

There are many websites with thousands of pages, and these are called websites, not databases. Ross' is a website (I refer to it as well when looking up certain groups.) But it is still a website. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 21:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

It's got collected data, it's searchable, it's a database. Why the opposition to the term "database?" What's so offensive about it? -Willmcw 22:11, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Nothing offensive.... just facts have to be stated as such. Google is a search engine and Wikipedia is an encyclopedia (while both are 'actually databases). Ross's on the other hand, has a website. Facts. BTW, most, if not all websites are searchable. Most websites are a collection of data. But these are still called websites and not databases. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 22:58, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, facts are facts. I am now prepared to go point for point on each and every fact. The way you are straining the world "database" demonstrated how far POV you are.

Actually, Google and Wikipedia are websites too. But what makes them interesting is what's in them, their function. I don't see the reason to get into a revert war over using a more specific term for Ross's site. How about we say it's a "so-called" database?  ;) -Willmcw 23:12, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Yes. This is getting silly. The current text is 100% accurate: . . . who maintains a website with an extensive listing of articles about cults, controversial groups, and new religious movements, and related research about mind control theories, as well as the CultNews.com blog. Ross should be proud, without calling his website something that is not. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 23:17, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Seems like this may indeed become a "revert war" in which you cling to your POV rather than yield to the facts. Be very specific, the current entry I have posted once again is "100% accurate." If there is a factual error please point it out. Again, be very specific and NPOV. We can go point for point. This is not about your "sour grapes" reaction to Ross' mainstrean and widespread media recognition as a cult expert, but rather about the facts for a Wikipedia entry. Perhaps before continuing you should read again very slowly the Wikipedia guidelines.

If you continue reverting you will be breaking the Three Revert Rule and will be banned. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

You have already broken the revert rule yourself. Your whole approach here has been outside the guidelines of Wikipedia. It seems to me that perhaps you should be banned. What are you here for? It looks like your agenda is to promote your POV and go after people based upon your POV. Again, please be very specific and point out, point by point, what is unbalanced and/or not factual about the entry I have posted. It is a blend of both your citations and sources and others that are quite solid. It is NPOV and well within the Wikipedia guidelines. Rather than threatening let's see if we can work this out through a meaningful dialog. Now, please make your points. Take your time and be succint, factual and NPOV.

Reported 3RR on User:67.134.82.77 --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:24, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Reported 3RR on --ZappaZ Won't anyone reign in this guy??? I have repeatedly offered to discuss this point by point. He seems unwilling to work on edits and support his edits. Is Wikipedia supposed to be like this?

You need to reign on your mouse and stop deleting my work and the work of others on this article. If you see anything on this article that is not factual and that is not supported by citacions, please let us know and we will gladly delete it. I have substantiated each and everyone of my edits. The ones I was wrong about, were deleted as soon as someone pointed it out. Now stop vandalizing this article. Thanks. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:31, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

First, you "vadalized" a long-standing entry here, by changing it with something 50 plus edits. Subsequently, you expect everyone to accept that. You admit at this point that you were "wrong." and submitted false and/or misleading information. Yet you want your entry to stand. No. You have yet to prove that a single point within my post is in error. Given your errors and conduct at this point you should prove what is false and/or misleading within my entry. Please begin to make these points so we can all move on.

I did not vandalized anything. I alerted that I will come back to this article when I had sometime to complete my research. I did. I edited adding substantial new text, and I explain my edits one by one. That is not vandalism, it is call editing. Your deletion of text and unwillingness to cooperate with other editors is unacceptable. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:46, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I have very carefully researched each and every edit. I invite you right not to discuss this. You have failed to point out a single error or misleading piece of information thus far. On the balance you have admitted repeatedly being "wrong" yourself. Obviously, this reflects quite poorly on your supposed research. I have posted solid factual information, which is historical and NPOV. Now, what is wrong? Stop trying to subvert the rules for your own POV and whatever crusade you are on.

Revert by Andries

I reverted edit by Zappaz about the paid testimonies of former members, which I incorrectly labelled as a minor edit. Sorry. I explained my revert hereabove. Andries 23:39, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I restored the text as it is supported by text from Ross's own website. See External Links --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz, it is not supported by his own website. Here I repeat what I had already written about above. It does not talk about testimonies, but about assistance.

"The cost of an intervention may be somewhat higher if special research is required, a former member of a destructive group is brought in to assist and/or substantial travel time is required.Former members typically charge a fee of about $350.00 to $500.00 per day depending upon their experience."

Andries 00:23, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

OK. You'r right. Your text stays, then. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:25, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

OK Zappaz, now let's go through the post that I worked very hard to balance point by point. You explain to me calmly, where it is wrong and how it is wrong through a recitation of NPOV facts.

The burden is on you to prove that any of the text that I added is not factual. That is the way that Wikipedia works. I researched the subject, provided references and citations on facts, not opinions. If there is anything on the text of the article that I, Willmcw, Andries and Irmgard edited, you are most welcome to challenge it. I am requesting a ban for your vandalism on this article. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:36, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

OK Zappaz. It seems you will attempt to subvert the rules in this petty personal crusade you have decided upon. I would request the same. That is, that you be banned from editing. And that the NPOV entry be allowed to remain up until your claims are reviewed. You have repeatedly been "wrong," which you have admitted, and posted false and/or misleading information at Wikipedia to promote your POV. The weight of disproving points should be on you after such bad conduct.

Please read NPOV to understand how WP works. Getting a user name and signing your comments will not be a bad idea either. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:50, 23 July

2005 (UTC)

OK. Editing is frozen now. Let's try to work this out point by point. I will do everything possible to assist and come up with a solid NPOV entry. Please understand that I am not a regular at Wikipedia, but I will do my best. Please help me to understand your POV regarding why the entry is not balanced and factual right now67.134.82.77 01:17, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Multiple reversions, protection.

I'm going to protect the page for a bit, as we seem to have an edit dispute going. Please note that this isn't an endorsement of the protected version as such. Fire Star 01:03, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

OK, here is what I am going to do. 67.134.82.77 seems to be in violation of 3RR, so I am going to revert the article back to the Andries/ZappaZ/ABCD version and take appropriate measures for the reversion violation. At that point I will unprotect the page. I strongly recommend that 67.134.82.77 register for an account and acquaint him/herself with our consensus policies. Again, this isn't a judgment of the content of the dispute, just an enforcement of Wikipedia policy. Fire Star 01:14, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

OK. How can this entry be made NPOV. Zappaz has changed it repeatedly to be biased and slanted to his point of view. Apparently anyone that criticizes "cults" offends him and he sees it as his crusade to create ad hominem attacks on Wikipedia. It appears Zappaz is a fan of a controversial guru that has been frequently called a "cult leader" and this motivates him to use Wikipedia like a soapbox for his rants. How can we address all this?

This is not my article. Others have contributed and helped make this article better. Get a user name and help make this article one that we can all be proud of. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 01:24, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I would also kindly request a page protection so that we can all enjoy a quiet and peaceful weekend.--ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 01:25, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Of course you want to freeze your edits in place and protect your POV. I would suggest a point by point review. I will proceed with each paragraph in order.67.134.82.77 01:32, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Point by point re: Zappaz constant POV edits.

OK Zappaz. I will be calm and go over the paragraphs with you one at a time in an effort to find a balance that is NPOV. If you are not reasonable I will invite feedback before making another edit. This will be a process and very open for everyone to see.67.134.82.77 01:45, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

First paragraph as follows:

"Rick Ross (born November 1952) is a controversial protagonist of the anti-cult movement who maintains a website with an extensive listing of articles about cults, controversial groups, and new religious movements, and related research about mind control theories, as well as the CultNews.com blog."

To be NPOV it should read as follows:

Rick Ross (born November 1952) is an internationally known cult expert who maintains an extensive database accessible through the Internet about controversial organizations, groups and movements, some that have been called "cults."

This is a simple opening paragraph that is factual, to the point and NPOV. If you wish to dispute that this is NPOV and factual please demonstrate your points factually.

Overwhelmingly, this is the reported media and general consensus about Ross and his website. Cults and their apologists represent a POV and are not NPOV.67.134.82.77 01:46, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Generally I oppose the word "expert" stated as fact because it is an assessment of a person's knowledge and skills and as such original research and against NPOV guidelines. Some of the quotes and references have been selected to put Ross in a bad light and other quotes can be added to that put him in a more favorable light. Also I think it is fair to add that almost anyone (cult apologist or anti-cult activist) who writes about cults and NRMs is controversial. Andries 10:22, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Dispute resolution and consensus

The best way to get a consensus on this article is indeed to discuss the points one at a time:

1. Explain on the talk page why you think what you wrote is right. Read what they say as well.
2. Provide references from outside Wikipedia to back up what you think. If they do the same, read them.
3. Ask for other people to look at the article and provide advice. Even if they know nothing about the subject they may be able to help.
4. Remember that opinions shouldn't be in an article.
5. If there is a real disagreement over what the facts are, not just between two editors but between different groups of people, then the best way may be to record both views and allow the reader to make up their mind.
6. If you believe the other user really isn't listening to reason, then try Wikipedia:Request for comment to get other people's opinions.

Stay calm, stay patient and try to stay pleasant. One good thing about Wikipedia is that we have to work with people who disagree with us. In the end, though, that makes for more complete articles. Fire Star 01:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks I will follow that advice.67.134.82.77 01:36, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Self-imposed moratorium

As with other controversial articles, when the pan gets too hot, I unilaterally place myself on moratorium so that these disputes do not affect my sweet life too much. Therefore, my last edit of today will be the last one for a while. I wish anon 67.134.82.77 good luck with his first baby steps in WP, and hope Willmcw, Irmgard and Andries can make this article better in my self-imposed absence. That said, please note that I will return in a week or two and continue contributing to this article if I see the need to. Hopefully text that is properly supported by citations will not be deleted, only improved upon. As always, I reserve the right to challenge any deletions or additions that are unattributed opinious, speculation or propaganda. May you all have a pleasant weekend. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 02:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone get in here, that anyone who really cares so about defending Rick Ross, is actually Rick Ross, the self-aggrandaizing, self-promoting spin doctor with all the excuses, stories and justifications. The convictions and criminal records happen to be a clear indication of the lifestyle, learning and apptitude of Rick Ross; something for nothing and making a living at other peoples expense.

Thanks for that revealing statement. It demonstrates why you are here and the purpose of your editing, just to rant and offer polemics.67.134.82.77 13:24, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz said this last time

We have been here before. The article was revised, edited and completed before and up in that edited version for some time. Then Zappaz came back and edited the article more than fifty times until it fit his POV. This included "deletions, or additions" the "opinions" of those that agree with his POV and both "specution" and "propaganda."67.134.82.77 05:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Proposed edits to return article to NPOV

There are quite a few repeated statements that are redundant. Also, many typos, spelling and gramatical errors. But let's start with the first few paragraphs or the introduction.

First paragraph currently reads as follows:

Rick Ross (born November 1952) is a controversial protagonist of the anti-cult movement who maintains a website with an extensive listing of articles about cults, controversial groups, and new religious movements, and related research about mind control theories, as well as the CultNews.com blog.

Ross, a former deprogrammer, describes himself today as a "cult intervention specialist". He has been interviewed and quoted by the media as a cult expert in the United States and around the world, and he has been called as an expert witness on several occasions.

He has numerous critics, especially from groups listed on his website, and he has played controversial roles in the case of Jason Scott and the ill fated Waco standoff with the Branch Davidians.

Britain's FHM magazine named Rick Ross "America's number one cult buster", the New York Daily News referred to Ross as "Self-styled cult buster" and Time Magazine referred to him as “a veteran cult watcher."

To be NPOV IMO it should read as follows:

Rick Ross (born November 1952) is an internationally known cult expert who maintains an extensive database accessible through the Internet about controversial organizations, groups and movements, some that have been called "cults."

This is a simple opening paragraph that is factual, to the point and NPOV.

Overwhelmingly, this is the reported media and general consensus about Ross and his database. Cults and their apologists that say otherwise represent a POV and are not NPOV.

It could further read:

Often called a "cult deprogrammer" Ross refers to himself as a "cult intervention specialist." He has been interviewed and quoted by the media in the United States and around the world, and testified as an expert witness.

He has been typically and frequently criticized by groups, organizations and movements listed within his database and also by academics and others sympathetic to those groups, organizations and movements.

Ross is also known for his role in the controversial Jason Scott case, which involved an involuntary deprogramming and as an expert used by law enforcement, the media and concerned families regarding the Waco Branch Davidians.

Britain's FHM magazine named Rick Ross "America's number one cult buster", Time Magazine referred to him as “a veteran cult watcher."'

IMO the NY Daily News quote is part of an article that reports about attacks on Ross and it is titled "Busting on the Cult Buster." It is not representitive of the overwhelming way in which Ross is referred to in the press. IMO this is a highly selective reference chosen to represent a POV.

The Scott case was controversial, essentially because Scientology used it as a vehicle to destroy the Cult Awareness Network, which was reflected in the news coverage and public interest.

Ross' role in Waco was not "controversial." He was consulted, lectured, was seen in the news frequently during and after the standoff as an expert and analyst. Cults and their apologists attempted to make Ross an object of controversy, but the reports, investigations and news covereage overwhelmingly did not reflect that and instead focused on the Waco cult, its deranged leader, his crimes and the tragic end he chose for his followers.

I look forward to comments and feedback.67.134.82.77 05:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

information about fees should be removed

I think the information about fees must be removed (or at least made less specific) because it violates the wikipedia policy (or guideline?) not to include information that dates quickly. Andries 11:51, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Unacceptable. Add the year and that's it. "As of 2005, Ross fees for intervention...." --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:17, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz, it is highly unusual that Wikipedia articles contain detailed prices of products, because that would break generally accepted guidelines of excluding information that dates quickly. I see no reason here to break this guideline. Andries 17:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

On second thoughts, I think Zappaz, you are right, I included "as of 2005" Andries 17:43, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I would also appreciate if you stand-up and voice disagrement about the unwarranted deletion of facts and well referenced material.--ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 21:11, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Note

I placed my seld on a self-imposed moratorium in editing this article, with the belief that editors will responsibly edit and improve upon the article. Unfortunately, the only editing has been a determided effort to delete text that was properly sources and referenced. I will have my weekend in peace, but note my strong objection to these deletions of text. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Let's try to get along and work in an NPOV way. Wikipedia is not really the place to posit your POV. Message boards might work better for this. Try editing with a NPOV, this may take time, little "baby steps," but put one foot in front of another and before you know it you just might get the hang of it.

Really? So now you are a WP expert as well? Fantastic... --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 23:47, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Anton Hein

Anton Hein and Ross did not disagree over "very critical attitude towards Christian missionary movements." They apparently disputed over poltical issues within the so-called "anti-cult movement."

See http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/browse_frm/thread/f1d97cf6d9e1c87d/0124af3c792d6471?q=rick+ross&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3Drick+ross%26start%3D30%26scoring%3Dd%26hl%3Den%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#0124af3c792d6471

Also see Ross' response to Hein at his "Flaming Websites" page.

See http://www.rickross.com/flamingwebsites.html

Hein says at his section about Ross that he become upset with him through an "email exchange during the Summer of 2003." The Google group exchange details this and the Q and A back and forth between the two. Hein seems to think that Ross being Jewish is problem, though he mentions this after citing the email dispute first. Specifically, "given the specialized knowledge and spiritual discernment necessary to deal with cults of Christianity, the publishers of Apologetics Index - themselves evangelical Christians - recommend contacting Christian cult experts instead."

Looks like politics and charcterizing this as a about Ross' "very critical attitude towards Christian missionary movements" is misleading and does not based upon facts.

The mention of Anson Shupe in this paragraph is redundant, since just below there is a complete statement by Shupe and his writing partner Darnell. I will edit the paragraph and combine the mention of Hassan and Hein together per a long-standing previous version.

Good. What about restoring the deleted text? What about adding the fact that Ross is an ex-deprogrammer? I will get back to work on this article, later in the week and when I am in the mood. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 23:48, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

"messianic group"

Under "Life" the following quote appears. "Ross's involvement with cults started in 1982, when a messianic group infiltrated the Jewish nursing home in Arizona where his grandmother was a resident."

This is misleading.

Many groups are "messianic," such as the Unification Church, which believes Rev. Moon is the "messiah" or Jewish groups that are waiting for the fulfillment of messianic prophecies. But the group that raised Ross' concern specifically was a fundamentalist Pentecostal group that targets Jews for conversion. They may call themselves "messianic Jews," but this a controversial claim. If readers of Wikipedia are to understand the specific situation it should read more specifically -- "a controversial religious group that targets Jews for conversion."

See http://www.rickross.com/reference/jews_for_jesus/jews_for_jesus8.html

The above article explains the concern of the Jewish community, Ross' involvement through a committee and the equal concern of Christians that endorsed the educational brochure he and others worked on regarding the situation.

Ross Jewish

His Jewish identity is best noted as an introduction to concerns abount his grandmother in the third paragraph under "Life" rather than the first paragraph.

dates in bio

Amended move to Arizona to include date and also dates of crimes committed in second paragrah.