Talk:Abortion debate

I'm not going to edit this article yet, but I think a major issue in applied ethics it's leaving out is the viability of the fetus outside the mother's womb. The article in its current form focuses strongly on the right of a woman to do what she wishes with her own body -- however, if the fetus can live just find outside the mother's womb (perhaps in an incubator), this is no longer really the issue. The issue then becomes whether she has a right to take positive action to destroy the fetus, despite an option to remove it from her body without destroying it being available. I'd say this is probably a good 50% of the current academic abortion debate, and as medical technology moves the date of viability further backwards, it will become essentially the only important issue -- the "parasite" argument will no longer apply, since the fetus will not physically need the mother to survive. --Delirium 02:53 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Regarding when human life begins, let me point out an issue of consistency. If you hold that a new human life begins at conception, then all forms of abortion mean the death of a human life. This includes natural, spontaneous abortions, such as happens to something like 50% of all fertilized eggs before they can even implant in the womb. They, too, represent the death of a human being. True, they are not something we can prevent (at least with present technology), but there is also the issue of how we normally deal with deaths of human beings, such as disposing of the body in a dignified fashion, with appropriate ceremonies, and mourning the loss. Nobody does anything like this for spontaneously aborted fertilized eggs. Indeed, such eggs are liable to be passed out with the woman's menstrual flow without her ever realizing that conception took place.

Does this situation bother those who consider that human life begins at conception? If not, why not? After all, a human being is a human being, right? Ldo 04:12, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I hold that mammalian (including human) life begins at conception, and therefore that all forms of abortion result in a human death (with the rare exception that some aborted human fetuses do, in fact, survive).

What appears to Ldo to be an inconsistency is not, in light of a distinction. The issue is one of the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. Some humans are born so badly deformed that they die within a few months or years. This is sad, but is also entirely different from the case where they are deliberately killed. The moral issue is whether the killing is deliberate or not. Another example would be an ectopic pregnancy. Here the offspring can not be saved by current medical science, but failure to remove the woman's offspring will result in her own death. In this case, the death of the offspring is not deliberate; there is simply no way to save him/her.

As to no mourning or loss, I think it's safe to assume that you have not experienced a miscarriage. When a miscarriage is known to have occurred, or is even suspected to have occurred, there very often is mourning and a deep sense of loss.

Yes, human beings are human beings. All human beings are going to die sooner or later. The issue is not whether any human being dies, but rather of whether innocent human beings are killed deliberately. Verax Tue Sep 16 22:18:58 PDT 2003

I have reverted:

The anti-abortion ("pro-life") argument is that a Homo Sapien embryo is the offspring of a Homo Sapien father and a Homo Sapien mother, and that all members of the species Homo Sapiens are human beings. The pro-abortion ("pro-choice") argument is that which members of the Homo Sapiens species are members of the human race is a matter of debate or convenience; if a woman so desires, she can choose to exclude her embryo from the human race, and can therefore choose to kill that embryo without considering the result as the unjust killing of a human being.

You can't call these the pro- and anti- positions; it was correct before, at least with regard to calling this the extreme pro- position. It's not the mainstream pro- position, which is that personhood does not begin at conception. The claim is that the foetus is not yet a person (though it is human). It would be an extreme claim that the woman can choose to exclude the foetus from the human race. Evercat 02:21, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I have included:

On the other hand, is a fetus a disposable part of a woman's body...

I think pro-abortionists would not expect a physician to amputate someone a member simply because they ask him/her to do it. This is what I want to stress by "disposable" which may not be the proper term, though. Obviously, that is the extreme pro-choice statement, but I think it fits in with the "On the other hand... statement". Pfortuny 13:49 Thu Oct 9 2003 (UTC).

Personhood

What's missing from this article but is often discussed in the philosophical literature on abortion is the importance of being a person.

For many philosophers, personhood, rather than species identity, is what's regarded as morally significant about the average adult human being.

From what I've read, most of the serious debate on abortion recognizes that biology will not be very helpful in answering the moral questions. But for what it's worth, there are several biological milestones that could be taken into account with regard to when a two gametes that fuse become a person. Extracted from http://www.macalester.edu/~psych/whathap/UBNRP/StemCells/embryonic.html

The genetic view is the same as that of the Catholic Church. It believes a new life begins at fertilization when the genetic material of sperm and egg combine.
The embryological view judges life as when an embryo is an individual. The formation of twins can occur as late as day 12 post conception, and in some cases twins can be conjoined with seperate personalites (in religious terms different souls) and share the same body. An embryological view would allow ~~contraception~~, "morning-after" pills, and contragestational agents, but not abortion after two weeks.

Contraception may be part of the legal battles surrounding sex (it used to be illegal for non-married couples to buy contraception devices. It may be part of the religious debates (dogma). It is not part of abortion. It's a related topic.

~ender 2003-11-07 19:26:MST

The neurological view complies with our soceties definition of death as the loss of the cerebral EEG (electroencephalogram) pattern. They use this definition to define life which would then occur at about 27 weeks. This view would allow mid-trimester abortions.
The ecological view sees human life as beginning when it can exist separately from its maternal biological environment, or outside the womb. This naturally occurs when the lungs are mature, but with current technology a premature infant to survive at about 25 weeks. This view would technically allow late term abortions if the baby is too young to survive outside of the mother.
Similar to this is the integrated physiological view when the infant is seperate and independant from its mother for bodily functions. This is the traditional birthday when the umbilical cord is cut.

The immunological view sees human life as beginning when the organism recognizes the distinction between self and non-self meaning when a fetus' immune cells begin to recognize its particular signiture over that of its mother or surroundings. In humans, this occurs around the time of birth.

I'm sorry but this is blatantly false, it is now clear that

the mother's body clearly reconginzes the fetus' cells as alien ones, but

fails to kill them. You can see some articles:

http://www.nature.com/nsu/021118/021118-9.html

http://www.hum-molgen.de/NewsGen/01-2001/msg02.html

http://focus.hms.harvard.edu/2003/May2_2003/immunology.html

That also demonstrates clearly that the fetus is by no mean

a part of the woman's body.

I think you've misinterpreted the immunological view of life. It holds that a fetus is an individual when it recognizes itself as distinct from it's surrounding. The mother, with a fully developed immune system, obviously is able to recognize the fetus as non-self, but this isn't a revealing point. What you might want to consider is whether the immunological view as I've described it is itself a meaningful definition of human life. Personally, I think it isn't appropriate because an adult human without an adaptive immune system (think bubble boy) is still clearly a individual. Rikurzhen 03:50, Oct 20, 2003 (UTC)

The metaboloic or developmental view is that there is clear point at which life begins. The egg and the sperm cells are just as alive as any organism and combining them to develop into a human being perpetuates the never ending cycle of life. This view does not appear to have any particular stand on abortion, some may view it as similar to the death of a cell, and others might view abortion as immoral even at the earliest stages, possibly even before conception.

With that in mind, many of the statements in this article are too limited in scope or actually false.

We need a discussion of the view of personhood and potential persons, human dignity, etc. to be more complete and accurate. Rikurzhen 06:29, Oct 12, 2003 (UTC)

I completely agree with last paragraph. I definitely agree with using person rather than human being in the text, because it reflects more properly both the philosophical/legal issues. Pfortuny 12:01, Oct 14, 2003 (UTC)

Okay, so where are the medical issues linked? I see personhood...

I'd like to read legal issues/ethical/philosophical, medical issues, religious issues, and political issues surrounding abortion.

One of the things mentioned were survivability, or another really good word which encapsulated better terms, which stated a time. Unfortunately that time-period is not static, and keeps being pushed back. Just like alternative methods to human female wombs to put children in are also coming into play. All of these aren't super interesting to the political/religious debates, but are interesting in terms of medical capabilities and alternatives.

~ender 2003-11-07 19:13:MST

I proposed splitting the page:

History of the abortion debate, current legal restrictions or permissions on abortion around the world, and major news items -- watershed trials, major demonstrations, etc. This page would have facts everyone agrees on: e.g. summary of the fact that the Roe v. Wade case occured. This page would also have links to the following two pages and would NOT take a pro or anti stance itself.
Arguments against abortion, that would support a position of government restrictions on, or outright prohibition of abortion; the "pro-life" position with its shadings.
Arguments in favor of abortion being a personal matter, an option that should be available to pregnant women without government prohibition, or even something that should be provided for by public health programs; the "pro-choice" position with its shadings.

Each of the arguments page could in turn address philosophical, medical, religions, social, etc. items proponents for each position might wish to address. The attempt to fairly present both points of view on the same page is, in my opinion, doomed to failure. Better to fairly link to impassioned and articulate presentations of the best each side has to offer. - 11/20/2003

I don't like this title. The comma implies that it is about abortion and legal and moral issues (not legal and moral issues relating to abortion, but abortion and any old legal and moral issues). Abortion: legal and moral issues would be better, though I don't like using colons in this context (I know they're used elsewhere, but I don't like it). Tuf-Kat 07:33, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)

Your right about the sentance structure of the title. Personally, I think this should be a section of the abortion article itself, but for some reason there are numerous situations where articles like this are split off. Do you know why this is done? Somebody told me it has to do with excessively large articles being difficult to read on certain browsers. Any additional info please? I think it would be MUCH better if stuff like this was part of the larger article, not its own (in my opinion not appropriate) seperate article. Jack 09:33, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

At 32k, articles become essentially uneditable by certain browsers (I dunno for sure which ones, except IE on a Mac, which I used to use). Without warning, they cut off the article after the 32k cut-off. Splitting articles up is generally a good idea when they get that long anyway because it makes it easier to read and so on. The idea is good, though it is always done too well, as in this case. Each article should stand on its own, IMO, though I know others disagree and have no problems with articles only really making sense in relation to each other. Tuf-Kat 18:24, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)

That sucks. My browser is really great, and I edit by section generally.... Can't we look forward to a future of 1000 page articles and decent browsers commonplace? Wiki is not paper...... :'( Oh yeah, are we gonna change the name of this article or something? Jack 21:55, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I was bold and moved it to the way the subject was introduced in the first sentence. Tuf-Kat 23:52, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)