Talk:Jews

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Etymology: From http://www.etymonline.com which is generally dependable: '12c., from Anglo-Fr. iuw, from O.Fr. giu, from L. Judaeum (nom. Judaeus), from Gk. Ioudaios, from Aramaic yehudhai "Judah," lit. "celebrated," name of Jacob's fourth son and of the tribe descended from him. Replaced O.E. Iudeas "the Jews." Originally, "Hebrew of the kingdom of Judah." ' User:Wetman The etymology at the head of this article needs to explain the anomaly about the '-ry- ending.

From what I know of linguistis it could not derive from Judaeum. It looks like one of those faux-pas which has slipped into the conventional explanations like for example the "1400BC Aryans" where there is apparently no scientific basis for this. hyperdictionary.com says Jew is a synonym of Hebrew. Certainly Italian Greek & most slavic languages (the first three translations of the Bible were in Greek Latin & Slavonic) all call Jews as Hebrei Ebrei or Jevrey. If you think it should be reverted until more evidence is presented feel free. User:Zestauferov

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The article states:

The most common view is that the Middle English word Jew is from the Old French qiu, earlier juieu, from the Latin iudeus from the Greek corresponding to the Hebrew y'hudi, ultimately from Judah, name of a Hebrew patriarch and the tribe descended from him. The Old English equivalent was Iudeas. An alternative and much less common view is that Jew is from Jewry from the greek evrei meaning "Hebrews." Under the latter view, Abraham, Israel and other patriarchs are regarded as Jews while under the former only the descendants of the Judaeans would be Jews, strictly speaking.

I have removed the last sentence; the common useage of a word often has litle or no relation to the word's historical, linguistic origin. Many people assume that the word "Jew" is derived from evrei; yet this does not mean they have a different definition of "Who is a Jew" than people who go by the more accepted derivation (i.e. the former one in the paragraph.) People do have different ideas of how the ancient Hebrews are related to the Jews of today, but that is better described in a separate paragraph. This latter idea is discussed in the article on Israelites. RK 00:55, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)

Shalom RK, I think it is very valuable and relevant to the article to tie to that etymology an explanation of why Abraham and Isaac & other patriarchs are considered Jewish (which also explains how a person can be a Jew without being very religious). It is not fair to those without an indepth knowledge of all the parameters to omit this clear & simple explaination very relevant to the article. If it does not belong where it was then place it somewhere else in the article but let's not omit it.

Re the opening para: "still identify as Hebrews in a cultural or ethnic sense." None of the Jews I know identify as "Hebrews." The identify as Jews. Why this strange squeamishness about the word Jew? Adam 12:08, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The easiest way is to understand Jews as Hebrews & vice-versa

Jews are Hebrews! I never met a Jew who does not consider Abraham and the patriarchs to be Jews. Adam

Yes, most religious Jews believe that Abraham and the other Biblical patriarchs were Jews. But this is not the point. Historians use the name "Hebrews" for the group of people that would later become Israelites, and later "Jews". However, it is a historical anachronism to use the word "Hebrews" to refer to Jews today. Most people don't even use the term "Israelites" to refer to the Jews today. JeMa 15:09, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)

Why? Because even if the most common sources argue that Jew come from Judah, that is not how it works in our mindsets nor in the more obscure sources. No one can deny that these figures were Hebrews and that is the best way to look at the word Jew. Most dictionaries also give Hebrew as one of the meanings of Jew and a member of the Judaic religion as another meaning. I don't know why there is always such a fuss made about it. Orthodox Jews would reject someone as a member of their religion and that is fine because if they do not follow their ways. However it is not automatic that the same orthodox Jew (Judaicist) would have a problem in accepting that person as a Hebrew if it were claimed. Hebrew is the cultural element Judaic is the religious. Because of the arguments of etymologists both may be called Jews. Some Jews (Hebrews) are more Jewish (Judaic) than others in their religious beliefs but that does not divide us we are all Jews (Hebrews) regardless. The fastest growing religion in Israel is Buddhism but does that mean there are fewer and fewer Jews (Hebrews) in israel? Of course not. But it does mean that a lot of Jews (Hebrews) practice Buddhism. And it does mean that there are fewer Jews (Judaic practitioners) in Israel.

Perhaps this concept is difficult to grasp for non-Jews who do not come from an ethnic community living amongst people who couldn't care less about their ethnic origins. Because Jews are white people cannot accept our national identity being different from our national citizenship. This probably explains why some people in anger asked why Jews don't just get israeli citizenship if we don't consider themselves British. If Jews were green in colour then ironically it would have been more acceptable that we identify ourselves as a seperate nation. Colour blindness works in many ways.

Don't be too hung up on finding a difference between Jew and Hebrew. There isn't any significant difference. The difference is in the level of one's Judaism (easy to illustrate) or descent from one of the 12 tribes (very difficult) and that is all. That makes everything very clear [note ironic tone]. Adam

You seem to be using a technical term incorrectly. Historians reserve the term "Hebrew" to refer to the ancient people from which the Israelites (later, Jews) came. They do not use these words as synonyms. Also, most religious Jews do not refer to themselves as Hebrews. They only call themselves Jews. Your points about Jews as a people versus Jews as those who practice Judaism is well taken. I do not think that anyone is disagreeing with you. This is only a point of terminology that we are trying to clarify. The people you are talking about are called "Jews", not "Hebrews". JeMa 15:18, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)

For historians there is a difference in using these words. They use the term "Hebrew" to refer to the ancient ethnic group, not very well defined, from which the Israelite tribes eventually sprung forth. You are using the same word in a different fashion, as a synonym for "Jew". JeMa 15:18, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)

JeMa 1. No the people I am refering to are called Jews 'and/or' Hebrews (?!?!not Hebrews!?!?!). You might be confused about this. Jew does 'not' just refer to anyone who is a descendant of Judah in religious practice or otherwise. 'Such' people are called Judaic. Jew 'does' on the otherhand refer to Israelites AND the patriarchs. That is why the arguments on the etymology being from Juda are not only wrong but also confusing. I am not the only one doing this, every Jew I have met thinks the same way. Morover the majority of languages in Europe call us Hebrews. They are right. Jew as a synonym for Hebrew is the simplest and easiest way to look at it. We are forced to use Jew in english because the use of Hebrew is "otherwise engaged", but in our own language we call it and ourselves Hebrew. 2. An encyclopaedia should explain the Jewish question simply. 3 I am not absolutely sure that every Historian would agree with your over simplified view (I don't for example), but those who would certainly contribute to clouding the issue. As far as we are concerned All Hebrews are Jews but not all Hebrews are Judaic.

You are using terminology that I am not familiar with. I have never heard of Judaics; how do they differ from Jews? Also, I did not say that the word "Jew" refers to descendents of Judah. I agree that such a useage is incorrect. The article on the ancient Israelites explains this issue. (In short, many descendants of the ancient tribe of Judah are not Jews. They have long been assimilated into other cultures, and are now gentiles.) Also, are you saying that in Europe, English speakers do not refer to Jews, but instead refer to Jews as "Hebrews"? JeMa 17:39, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

I have never heard of Judaics either. I don't believe I have ever used this plural noun. However, I have used the adjective Judaic to describe one's level of Judaism. But one's level of Judaism is not very connected to one's Jewishness. Being Jewish is a question of belonging to the Hebrew nation. Some Jews may disagree with me if I say that being a part of the Hebrew nation entails more than simply an Israeli passport. It is however 'usually' taken for granted that every Jew will also be Judaic to some extent or other. I.E. Judaism will be practiced at some level or other. But that is only usually the case. Even an orthodox will accept them as a Hebrew without accepting them as Judaic. The problem is in ENGLISH (not every language) there is no noun for someone who practices Judaism, so the same noun which Jews understand and use to mean Hebrew to ALL intents and purposes (i.e. Jew whether or not one agrees that the term ultimately derives from Yevrei) is also used to describe one's level/adherance to Judaism. I don't know how you got the idea that English speakers in Europe refer to Jews as Hebrews. I wrote that the majority of Languages in Europe call us Hebrews meaning rather than claim that our national name derives from Judah their names for us include an initial aspirant &/or vowel also a b/v an r and a final high vowel. The idea I was hoping you might catch is that when most English speaking Jews say Jew they mean Hebrew (except in very few circumstances). When someone asks me why I don't eat pork I say because I am Jewish, but if they take it to mean I am talking about my religion, they are making their own conclusions. I do what I do because that is part of my nationality. That is because they do not understand what it means to be a Hebrew in nationality. Likewise when they meet an Israeli at a dinner party they might be surprised after having gone through the efforts of finding out which foods are not Kosher to see that the guest in question loves shellfish. This area is comparable with asking why someone from one part of the world eats 12 dishes on christmas eve they would not be surprised when that person says because I am Polish so too are certain things Jews do a part of our culture and nationhood regardless of how Judaic our lives are (i.e. what level of Judaism we may or may not practice living at).

I think the phrase "die weltweit am schellsten wachsende jüdische Gemeinschaft" should be translated as "not all Wikipedia readers know German" (for instance I don't know German). Sabbut 06:44, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Agreed. JeMa 17:39, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

Agreed

Can someone please provide information on the Israeli legal definition of a Jew and how the Israeli government goes about classifying people by religion and "ethnicity"?

The definition used by the Israeli government are explained in the Israel sub-articles. They are similar to the definitions used by the Aram Muslim countries in the region. (However, Israeli's citizenship laws are much, much more liberal than the laws of any of their surrounding Arab Muslim nations.)) RK 14:06, Nov 22, 2003 (UTC)

I guess you mean the "Population groups in Israel" page? Not the first place one would look. Logically shouldn't it be on this page?

Come to think of it, yes! You are correct that this was an oversight. I have added a section on this subject to this page. I also have slightly expanded the page on Population groups in Israel. RK 13:47, Nov 23, 2003 (UTC)

I have moved this new paragraph here, just for clarification: and it is ironic that the traditional & modern legal Jewish authorities consider Jewishness as Hebrew ethnicity which can be adopted by anyone willing to adopt as a way of life a conservative form of the Judaic religion or naturalisation process at the very least while other types of religious Jew are not considered Jewish. Thus introducing oneself as a secular or ethnic Jew actually emphasises ones Jewishness from an official perspective.

I am not sure what you mean by this. This is a run-on sentence. What do you mean by "conservative form of the Jewish religion". And what other forms of the Jewish religion do you believe exists? Are you using the word "conservative" as a euphemisim for "ultra-Orthodox"? RK 01:38, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC)

Two items:

1. Judiaism does not hold that truly rightous individuals must convert to Judiaism. Non-Jews that observe the seven commandments given to the children of Noah are rightous. This is a significant difference beteen Judiaism and Christianity and Islam. In Christianity, the uncoverted are damned; the Jews are particularity damned and particularly sought out for converstion. Islam allows Jews and Christians some inferior legitimacy vis a vis Muslims.

Judaism does not consider non-Jews as damned. However, Judaism does believe that it is better to be a righteous Jew than a righteous non-Jew. Judaism is a higher standard. Somebody who lives up to a higher standard is better than somebody who lives up to a lower standard. However, the higher standard is a contract, as such somebody who signs the contract is responsible to uphold its terms while somebody who doesn't does not have to uphold them.

It is therefore quite possible for a righteous non-Jew to be considered better than a nominally religious Jew because the non-Jew is living up to his responsibilities and the Jew is not really doing so. However, a righteous non-Jew, unless he has a good reason, would in order to further his righteousness have to become a Jew. Ezra Wax

2. Do Reform and other forms for Judiaism use the term Halachah?

OneVoice 10:24, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)