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"Roma/Romani people" vs "Gypsies"

"Gypsies is more common than "both Roma and Romani people" and according to Wikipedia policy, the title should be the most common version.

That's not a complete comparison though. "Roma" would also return lots of hits, although we're then faced with the issue of the Italian name for Rome being the same. But the point stands that comparing "Roma people" to "Gypsies" isn't comparing like with like. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which wikipedia policy? The imaginary one in your head, or this one? Here are three key points from that policy page (please take special note of the third one):

  • Self identification: When naming or writing an article about specific people or specific groups always use the terminology which those individuals or organizations themselves use.
  • Some terms are considered pejorative, or have negative associations, even if they are quite commonly used. Even though people may use these terms themselves, they may not appreciate being referred to by such terms by others (for example, faggot, nigger, tranny). Note that neutral terminology is not necessarily the most common term — a term that the person or their cultural group does not accept for themselves is not neutral even if it remains the most widely used term among outsiders.
  • Roma is preferred over gypsy.

So, considering the actual wikipedia policy specifically contradicts your argument, please stop. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 18:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1.Germans don't call themselves germans, but "Deutsche", Albanians don't call themselves albanians but "Shqiptarë" the jews don't call themselves jews but "Yehudim", hungarians don't call themselves hungarians but "Magyarok", thus the " the terminology in english wikipedia is that which is most used in the english language ".
2.Gypsy is by far the most used term in english language by both the media and the academic and encyclopedic sources and cannot be included in the same category with Faggot, Nigger, Tranny . The word gypsy is considered peiorative by only a very little minority of this ethnic group thus being in contradiction with the majority.
3.Roma cannot be preffered over gypsy for the very simple reason that Roma is a sub-group of the gypsies, this means not all gypsies are Roma.Rezistenta (talk) 19:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding that second point of yours, where's your evidence for this? Sure, a lot of Roma do call themselves "gypsies", or don't mind that term, but it is definitely considered pejorative by a great many Roma. Otherwise, why would organizations like the Voice of Roma use that term, instead of calling themselves the Voice of the Gypsies? Sorry, the article already covers these issues with far greater care than you've shown here. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 19:54, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My evidences are the number of hits per name, the most used name in english language is Gypsy, if the term was peiorative I guess it wasn't used by the media and by the academic and encyclopedic sources. The term itself is not pejorative. For example, grade school buys routinely insult others by calling themselves gay, but that doesn't make "gay" as a term referring to homosexual men an insult among society at large, similarly for expressions such as "to jew someone down". Organisations like that which you mentioned earlier use Roma for the same reasons why it was introduced in the first place by noumerous organisations and foundations sponsored by one man,George Soros . You're sorry for what? for not knowing to explain the etymology of the termn, and trying to impose it over a historical and much more known and historical linked term? Rezistenta (talk) 20:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Rezistenta, Your Google test is not applicable as "Roma People" is "Roma" set with a necessary qualifier "people" (presumably to avoid references to Rome and some tomatoes) yet will not register genuine use of "Roma" or "Romani" which in most cases will appear without the qualifier. (and "Gypsies" alone may be full of hits from Sonny and Cher lyric pages?) "Roma" is the correct term as per Britannica which is more reliable in this context. István (talk) 20:59, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is not the appropriate place to debate a Wikipedia policy. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 19:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't debate any wikipedia policy, I read the articles and I follow the actual examples... Rezistenta (talk) 19:23, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I really think it would be best if we stop fueling this debate any further. There are clear and specific wikipedia guidelines on this issue (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity)) so any further discussion seems to be a waste of time. Rezistenta, if you want to call in arbitration, you are more than welcome to do so. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 21:30, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rezistenta is right. As long as the term "Gipsy" is more often use than the term "Roma" (or something like that), we shoult use the denomination "Gipsy" in order to handle according to Wikipedia rules without making exceptions. --Olahus (talk) 11:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the policy pointed by TheMightyQuill says that we should use here the name preferred by the given ethnic group. So, the dispute here should be about whether Roma prefer to be called Roma or Gypsy (in English, I mean). Of course, the article must mention that Gypsy is the main word, still, but that's another matter. So, do you have sources on how Roma/Gypsy prefer to be called? My favorite example are the Gypsy Kings, which obviously prefer to be called Gypsy. But artists may be an exception. Dpotop (talk) 11:48, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's only part of the issue. The other point from the policy is also important:

  • Some terms are considered pejorative, or have negative associations, even if they are quite commonly used. Even though people may use these terms themselves, they may not appreciate being referred to by such terms by others (for example, faggot, nigger, tranny). Note that neutral terminology is not necessarily the most common term — a term that the person or their cultural group does not accept for themselves is not neutral even if it remains the most widely used term among outsiders.

So even if Gypsy was the most commonly used, because a significant number of people find it offensive, we are to go with the more neutral term, Roma. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 16:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Gypsy" is both neutral and common, so if you think that you are right you have to prove us that "Gypsy" is neither.AdrianCo (talk) 16:57, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly you dont mean neither - a careful reading of the policy reveals that the most common name may be excluded in favor of a less common name if the most common name is considered pejorative. "Roma" is favored over "Gypsy" not on common use criteria but because "Gypsy" is considered pejorative (as per a.m. reliable source). AND...(can't let that rhetorical sleight of hand pass unnoticed) the burden of proof falls upon one advocating a change - i.e. not upon those who accept "Roma/Romani People" as the preferred name. István (talk) 17:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well ok. We all agree that some people call "Gypsys"/"Romas" as Gypsys. So you say it`s pejorative. So how come it is us that should come with evidence when it is you that should have done this from the first place! I mean...the only "reference" was a webpage from geocities. I don`t find that a "reliable source"...do you?! AdrianCo (talk) 19:03, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, The MightyQuill is quoting Britannica, which says that "Many Roma find the word Gypsy pejorative" (beware, "many" is a weasel word). Dpotop (talk) 20:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To AdrianCO: From my experience it's useless to discuss these issues. These "minority rights" guys are the same that imposed in the US the changes "negro->black->afro-american->african american". Of course the african-american minority remains discriminated, but the minority rights organizations justified their existence. Note they don't even care that these guys are calling themselves "Gypsy" or that this is the majority usage. And in the end, this entire discussion changes nothing: Just saying rom instead of gypsy won't change the prejudice against them. I suggest leaving them invent their new language. Dpotop (talk) 20:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But from what I know Britanica isn`t a very good source...wasn`t wikipedia greater the it?! Furthermore they say "many" not "most". And third...it`s still a second hand source. AdrianCo (talk) 06:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
1) Britannica (despite its limitations) is as uncontroversially WP:RS today as it was in 1911; 2) "Many" in this context means it exists and is noteworthy, whereas "most" (a majority) is not required by WP:NCI; 3) Our sources are required to be "second-hand" i.e. external (surely you mean "second-hand" in a different context? What then is first-hand?) István (talk) 12:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Istvan, according to Encyclopedia Britannica, Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian and Istro-Romanian are dialects of the Romanian language. Though, in Wikipedia, in the title of article of those idioms, they are called "languages", not dialects: Aromanian language, Meglenoromanian language, Istroromanian language. As you can see, the opinion of E.Britannica is irrelevant for Wikipedia. So, therefore, I insist to handle in the case of this articles according to Wikipedia rules without making exceptions. The name of the article must be changed into Gypsies, because thes term ist not just elder, but also more often used in English.
And according to the "pejorative perception" of the term "gipsy" by some (or "many") members of this ethnic group, we must proove first that most of them do have this perception.
You see, dear Istvan, the Croatians are a catholic people who live in the western Balkan region, mostly in Croatia and Bosnia. The Croatians don't feel sentimentaly tied with the Balkans. They even perceive as pejorative to be denominated as "balkanians". But, because they live in the Balkans, they are Balkanians, weather they like or not to be called as it. --Olahus (talk) 15:16, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Istvan: 1) see Olahus`s comment 2)can you prove that there is a greater number that preferes "roma" as a translation?!...look: romanianas are called as "vlahs" in the Czech Republic as a "bad thing"(or Poland, don`t remeber quite well now); however the VAST majority of people from Walachia take pride in being called "vlahs", so there is no problem, I think it`s the same thing here....it`t not pejorative for us, so it`s not pejorative in english! 3)in this case I see first hand as a scholar reserch. AdrianCo (talk) 16:57, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I tink, the article shold be renamed into Gypsies. They are rules in Wikipedia and we must respect them. I suppose in this case the point of the user Rezistenta. --Feierabend (talk) 13:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let's move it then to Gypsies. Marc KJH (talk) 08:56, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Uhhh...no one seems to have noticed this, so I just thought I might point it out: Gypsy is a disambiguation page, and Gypsies is a redirect to that. --Kuaichik (talk) 16:41, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
An Administrator should redirect it. Marc KJH (talk) 17:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As it can be seen in "Gypsies" disambiguation page, not all Gypsies are Roma, this page is about gypsies not only about Roma people Rezistenta (talk) 22:37, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In most (english-language) contexts, the phrase 'Gyspsy' indicates a traveler, carnie, fortune-teller or nomad, not a member of a specific ethnic group. It is for that reason that the page Gypsy disambiguates to multiple pages and (aside from political correctness) why we use 'Roma' instead of 'Gypsy' for this article. I oppose a move on all grounds. The Myotis (talk) 02:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're wrong. "Gypsy has a racial definition - for a people originating in north-west India who left in the first millennium AD, mainly heading north and west and spreading to most parts of Europe by the 16th century." BBC NEWS UK You oppose to something based on a mistaken belief thus your opposing arguments are not available Rezistenta (talk) 10:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So...how and when do we move it?AdrianCo (talk) 12:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This way: Wikipedia:Requested moves One should make a request. Marc KJH (talk) 15:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Discussion

As per above. Marc KJH (talk) 15:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I don't agree with this. Groups representing Roma people, such as the European Roma Rights Centre, use "Roma" rather than "Gypsy". Furthermore, some consider "Gypsy" to be offensive. Roma is used by the BBC, the IHT, New York Times, Encarta, Encyclopædia Britannica, the UN, etc. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We already talked about this, if you repeat the same thing over and over again it does't make it more reliable, the arguments presented in favour of moving Roma to Gypsy are much more supported by the facts Rezistenta (talk) 16:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you're referring to your Google search, you're not comparing like with like. See my comments above. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
BBC tells them gypsy not Roma Here Rezistenta (talk) 16:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The BBC tend to use "Gypsy" when referring to travellers in the UK, and "Roma" for the ethnic group. Search for Roma on their website and you'll see. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Read the article, don't throw words in vain . Quote : " Gypsy has a racial definition - for a people originating in north-west India who left in the first millennium AD, mainly heading north and west and spreading to most parts of Europe by the 16th century."

read the discussion upper in the page, this aspects were already discussed Rezistenta (talk) 16:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have read it. It may have a racial meaning, but that does not mean that it is the preferred term, nor does it mean it is exclusively used to refer to Roma people. You may want to take a look at this book. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The people already decided to move it. Marc KJH (talk) 16:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Who are "the people", and on what basis have they decided? Cordless Larry (talk) 16:56, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose you're not on that list. Wikipedia is not a democracy. The majority decides. Marc KJH (talk) 16:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I could also recommend you a few books to read but still this aspects were already discussed upper in the page, come with something new if you wish to continue this debate. Rezistenta (talk) 16:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've read the section above and I don't find any convincing reasons for a move. Do you have anything to support your case other than the flawed Google comparison? Cordless Larry (talk) 17:02, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're not willing to accept the reasons. There are 4 archives to be read. You haven't so far read them. Spend some times reading them again and again. This article will be moved, despite you're against it. Marc KJH (talk) 17:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are many reasons for moving this article, I will make a short summary for you :

1. This article is about Gypsies, not about Roma, not all gypsies (e.g. from Eastern Europe) are Roma
2. The term Roma has no historical affiliations with this ethnic group (as can be seen in etymology section There are no historical proofs to clarify the etymology of these words, they were known untill the late 90 by the term "gypsies" the whole world knows them by this term,
3. This term creeates confusion with other ethnic group with a similar name which in contrast with gypsies are historical linked with the term Rezistenta (talk) 17:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. My reponse to point 1 would be that we should instead make this article about Roma people and move anything about other groups to the relevant articles. On point 2, I don't think we should be naming articles based on what the term used in the late 1990s was, but rather on what the term used today is. On point 3, isn't this what Template:Otheruses templates are for? Cordless Larry (talk) 17:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1.I'm sorry but you're responses are inconclusive, according to the content, this article it's about Gypsies not about Roma. If you wish to make an article specisely about Roma you are more then welcomed.
2. As shown above, gypsy is still the more spreaded ethnonim for this ethnic group
3. Why using a term with no historical affiliations to this ethnic group and replace a correct and more spreaded one  ? Rezistenta (talk)

Just to focus on point 2 for a moment, what's the evidence that Gypsy is the more frequently used term? Cordless Larry (talk) 17:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Number of hits per name and the mentioning of such phrases like e.g. (Roma commonly known as Gypsies) in very popular encylopedias, The name Roma asignated to gypsies rarely comes without the much more spreaded and alternative name, "gypsy" Rezistenta (talk) 17:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, well as I've already stated several times I think your Google comparison is flawed. I'm not arguing against noting that the Roma are often referred to as Gyspies, but surely articles that state that Roma are commonly known as Gypsies do so because they use Roma as the title? Anyway, I sense that this discussion is going nowhere, so why don't we just have a simple vote? Cordless Larry (talk) 17:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vote

  • This is totally absurd. However, since you're putting up this phony "vote", my vote is: Strongly oppose. "Gypsy" is not and will never be an encyclopedic term for this article. Apparently it's the same small group who're trying to push this through. Feh. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 18:48, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry that you think the vote is phoney. As you can see, I oppose the move too but thought a vote was necessary to show that it is widely opposed. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    (ec)Mind holding your tongue, Mr. Anonymous? We would be all grateful. Your anger is more likely more productively used in trying to write serious argumentations, rather than attack those who disagree with you - that I can guarantee from my experience. Good luck, but please, avoid making such unhelpful remarks in the future, ok? ;-) Snowolf How can I help? 19:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Opposed to this BIG PANDORA'S BOX for two reasons: 1. Not only is "Gypsy" OFFENSIVE to some, breaking WP:NCI, but also 2. "Gypsy" in common English usage, has a much broader scope of reference than the subject ethnic group, and any article named "Gypsies" must then also include references to travellers, nomadics, etc, AND separately those who have adopted a certain lifestyle or fashion (and good luck defining that lifestyle and fashion, btw). This page already struggles to define its own encyclopaedic boundaries - renaming it "Gypsy" would be both unencyclopaedic and chaotic. István (talk) 20:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Voting is evil. We don't make editorial decisions based on "majority rules". We make decisions based on a consensus interpretation of our core content policies. In this case, consensus is not entirely clear, and this "vote" is far too small of a sample to be at all meaningful. For an important titling question such as this, larger community participation is required. This discussion should be advertised at a village pump, and I'm leaving a note at WT:NCI

    Additionally, we're dealing with a question more nuanced than Move vs. Don't Move. The scope of the article is called into question in this discussion - should the article be about the Roma people exclusively, or about the various peoples who have been called Gypsies?

    Perhaps the best solution is a combination of the two: one article on the Roma people, similar to our articles on other ethnic groups, and one article on Gypsies, which describes the history of the term, and explains how it has been applied historically to the Roma people as well as to others. The latter article could also deal with the more recent controversy in which the term is seen as offensive. -GTBacchus(talk) 21:53, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Gypsy can refer to Roma people, it can also refer to travellers in general. I am also uneasy with 'visability' being used to justify a move. We don't need to whore ourselves to search engine mechanics. Gypsy on its own would likely need a brackets disambiguator, current title does not and appears to conform to some of the guidelines. Narson (talk) 22:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why was this article moved in the middle of the discussion? // Chris (complaints)•(contribs) 23:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No idea but thanks to User:Lucasbfr it's now back. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:44, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support moving to something else than Roma people Seriously, how are the people from the city of Rome (considering in all latin languages the name of the city is Roma) supposed to be called then? I Believe that having what is decided the most-pollitically-correct and in paranthesis the best known version is by far the most productive. It is INFORMATIVE and does not offend either the group of people it describes (i.e. introduce name of the article here), nor the people that might be confused with (introduce name of the article here). Nergaal (talk) 23:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    That's a perfectly valid suggestion, but moving the page without discussing it first wasn't helpful. It now can't be moved back because there is a redirect in its place. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Um... "Roma" and "Roman" (the English adjective for someone from Rome) are not the same word. In my experience these people are called "Roma" or "Gypsy", depending who's talking or where I'm reading. I've never been confused about "Roma" versus "Roman". -GTBacchus(talk) 23:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity)#Ethnic and national identities Roma is preferred over gypsy when referring to the ethnic group, although the terms are not always synonymous. Those that I have known have consistently called themselves Romanies (singular Romany) and have regarded gypsy as offensive. Andrewa (talk) 00:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Roma people in Hungary: 8-10%

the appalling social and economic situation of the Roma, who account for between 8 and 10 percent of Hungary's 10 million people that means 800,000-1,000,000. --Marc KJH (talk) 17:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. I would imagine that there are quite a lot of estimates floating around though. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This was in response to [1] Now there are references. Marc KJH (talk) 17:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for clarifying. You should probably add a reference to the figure in the table to stop it being reverted. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. Done. Marc KJH (talk) 18:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can someone do me (us) a favor and extract the part of that PDF that's relevant and post it here? I tried to download the damn thing, and after about 6 megabytes, Adobe Reader gave up and said the file was damaged or corrupted somehow. How can people post such gargantuan documents in good conscience? There ought to be a warning label attached to them. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 19:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The 8-10 per cent figure comes from here, which isn't a PDF, so I presume you're referring to the DEMOS document. It states: "In the general census of 2001, 189,984 individuals claimed to be ethnic Roma. Experts and Roma organisations put the number of Roma living in Hungary between 450,000 and 600,000". Cordless Larry (talk) 19:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where are the archives

Why aren't the archive links working? Rezistenta (talk) 23:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because the page has been moved (without discussion). Cordless Larry (talk) 23:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, the archives didn't worked also before that, that's not the reason, we should fix this in the future Rezistenta (talk) 23:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You can access them at Talk:Romani people/Archive1, etc. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's probably due to double redirects. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok now it's fixed, thx for the cooperation Rezistenta ::::::(talk) 23:37, 23 March 2008( UTC)
I have moved back the article to Roma people since it seems not to have consensus. -- lucasbfr talk 23:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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