Talk:Saddam Hussein

Talk:Saddam Hussein/Archive 1, Talk:Saddam Hussein/Archive 2

Saddam's Capture (& Trial)

Can anyone confirm the text in the article stating that Saddam will be tried in an Iraqi court under Iraqi law? I would think they'd ship him to the Hague... --Dante Alighieri 18:05, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I have a feeling the US will do everything it can to have Saddam tried in a US military court, and to prevent media access to the trial. The last thing the US wants is for Saddam to be able to discuss his history with the US....like, where he got WMD in the 1980s. Kingturtle 18:17, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- I've watched the press confrences, and the US hasn't said he will be tried by Iraquis, but that the issue his trial still needs to be settled. The Iraqui council president (or whatever) has been calling for an Iraqui trial. They won't ship him to the Hague, as the Hague can't apply the death penalty, and that's Saddam's fate, wherever he's tried. Gentgeen
- Doesn't the Hague involve the International Criminal Court, which is opposed by the US? Secretlondon 14:37, Dec 15, 2003 (UTC)
According to the BBC's legal correspondent, the International Criminal Court(ICC) can't try alleged crimes that happened before it was instituted (Mar 2003) so even if it were politically acceptable, it can't happen, since Saddam's alleged crimes date from prior to that. Note that even Milosevic is not before the ICC, but a body known as the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, which just happens to sit in The Hague too. Spellbinder 14:50, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Per NPR's ATC Sun eve,

international courts don't have to sit in outside the country of the crimes (cf. W. Afr (Sierra Leone? Cote d'Ivoire?), and
there was a late change to the law/decree/whatever drafted in Iraq re courts/tribunals, requiring international (tech & legal) participation.

IMO, look for the discussion to be not where or even who, but whether the international role is sufficient to valid the results. How abt Iraqi judges predominating, plus US & old-Europe ones? --Jerzy 15:48, 2003 Dec 15 (UTC)

DNA testing on Saddam Hussein

I was looking over the writeup on Saddam Hussein since his capture and the author says that Paul Bremer affirmed DNA testing has identified the captive as Saddam.Well I am fairly sure that he said that they had not tested any DNA so far.Can anyone tell me if that is correct?

if they have, I don't think they have told anyone. Greenmountainboy 18:41, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

News on the DNA tests seem to be conflicting: [1] I don't think Bremer has said anything to that effect. Regardless, it's just a matter of time, really. --Minesweeper 19:02, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I would be very surprised if the US forces hadn't DNA-tested him. Bear in mind that he had several doubles, so they would want to be sure that they had the real Saddam. -- ChrisO 21:49, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Clarifying capture timeline

I think the capture timeline needs to be clarified. Thought needs to be put into standardizing the timeline to either local Iraqi time or GMT or US time, but one needs to be chosen and stuck with. As it is, the capture is first mentioned as having been reported on the 14th but a paragraph later Bremer announced it on the 13th (the wording is unclear there), and "8:30 pm" is mentioned without reference to date (it should be explicitly the 13th). At any rate, could someone please finesse the timeline, accounting for the capture on the evening of the 13th (local time) with all reporting on the capture after that point. I'm not sure the exact timing myself, but someone should fix it.

--Moncrief 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Photos of Saddam

There are too many propaganda photos in this article IMHO. Adam 14:27, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Given how carefully physical access to him was controlled, pre-defeat pictures of Saddam Hussein are by definition Iraqi propaganda, and post-defeat ones will by the same token be carefully filtered and selected American propaganda. I think the contrast between the images is instructive: one of each would make a good illustration for the propaganda article. -- The Anome 14:33, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I have no objection to one or two Saddam-as-conquering-hero photos, but four or five seems excessive, now that he is an ex-despot. Adam 14:38, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I quite agree - the page takes forever to download now. I suggest dropping the second, third and fifth pictures (Saddam with the flag, Saddam in uniform and Saddam in a war scene). Does anyone have any objections to this? -- ChrisO 21:52, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Yes, very much so. Saddam deliberately constructed iconic images of himself to project different aspects of his 'appeal' - the military nationalist leader, the hard man with the gun, the god-annointed leader of his people using royal 'divine right of kings' symbolism (the throne). You can't understand Saddam's appeal without understand the power of his iconography. This was previously explained in short captions but they were removed. But any article on Saddam has to show the power of his iconography in promoting his leadership. FearÉIREANN 22:09, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

For what it's worth, with regard to page load time, I think some of these could be compressed (the street scene is excessively large for example, and I think the uniform pic could go grayscale). - Hephaestos 22:14, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Useful, free, online compression tool at [2]. Andy Mabbett 22:18, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I agree that the images should stay on the page, but some edits and compression to speed up page load would be acceptable. --Flockmeal 22:24, Dec 15, 2003 (UTC)

i agree with FearÉIREANN, those captions that explained the meaning of the propaganda images should not have been removed, let alone branded "POV"! PMA 22:36, Dec 15, 2003 (UTC)

This is not an article about Representation of evil despots as conquering heroes or Ba'athist propaganda techniques. It is a biographical article about Saddam, and the selection of photos gives a very misleading visual account of his life. He was not a conquering hero, he was a thug and a murderer, and it is not acceptable for an encyclopaedia to reflect so uncritically his image of himself. Adam 00:16, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I think we can do without these two:

File:Saddam7.jpg File:Saddam Hussein (107).jpg

Neither one of which has copyright information, both of which are redundant.—Eloquence

I agree. I also think that now that Saddam's mythic status as a hero of anti-Americanism has been, shall we say, somewhat deflated, this article need a thorough edit to remove a lot of tendentious and unnecessary text. Adam 12:38, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Proposed new Saddam article

Here is a proposed new article on Saddam Hussein. I have removed large amounts of propaganda and irrelevance and included material on the 1990s which this article lacks. Comments are welcome. Proposed new Saddam Hussein article. Adam 14:52, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

You removed propaganda? And the claim that France was the "principal protector of his regime" is just objective fact? --Wik 15:27, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC)

Mais oui. Chirac's corrupt connections with Saddam go back 30 years. Everyone knows this. Adam 16:11, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Every pro-U.S. propagandist knows this, but it has nothing to do with NPOV. It is interesting how you say hardly a word about the U.S. support for Saddam (going back to 1959 [3]). --Wik 16:35, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC)

That's because it is almost entirely mythological. However Wik I don't expect to be able to persuade you of anything ouside your ideological idees fixes so I will bid you bon nuit. Adam 16:48, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

You don't persuade me because you don't have evidence. Meanwhile, everyone can judge for themselves whether the reports of major news agency UPI (see the link above) are "mythological". --Wik 18:11, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC)

History of this article

I think the articles concerning Saddam Hussein can be used in the future as a Wikipedia object lesson on "what not to do." There is no doubt they need an overhaul. The fact is they've needed an overhaul for quite some time. However the energy and zeal of some users here to radically overhaul them immediately reminds me uneasily of the behavior of some government censors to completely rewrite history after the occurrence of a regime change, and I'm concerned we might go too far in the other direction in our zeal.

These articles as they stand are a reminder of the incredible nearsighted POV inserted into writing by people who are blinded by propaganda (on both sides). I therefore would strenuously object to the outright deletion of any of them; this behavior should be documented in the article histories.

I hope that the article on Ba'athist propaganda techniques is written, and that all of these photographs are used, that the explanatory captions are added, and that they aren't removed again in the pursuit of some agenda. I should also mention that in the case of the two cited above, whose "copyright" (such as it is) almost certainly lies with Saddam's government, mention of copyright in a case like this borders on the inane.

I've read Adam Carr's rewrite proposal and think it's quite good in that it covers the man, as opposed to the "evil genius" or the "diabolical madman." As with all drafts, though, it needs work; there's still a lot that pertains more to an article on the Ba'athist government than to a biography of a person (or, at least, more emphasis on his personal involvement is called for).

I've taken the liberty of adding a photo to that draft which was removed from the present article with nary a peep in June (it was at that point I gave up hope on this article). Much as I like the draft, I hope that objective material that has been (and hopefully, will continue to be) removed can be incorporated into sub-articles. These writings represent the work of dozens of contributors over the period of a year or more, and deserve better than to be simply swept under the rug after the fashion of some authoritarian states. - Hephaestos 16:20, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Proposed new Saddam article 2

OK so far comment on my proposed alternative (Proposed new Saddam Hussein article) to this article has been positive, except for Wik who objects to it politically rather than stylistically.

So let's have a vote:

Keep present article
Substitute Adam's article (which can of course be further edited if there are things in it people don't like).

Adam 11:18, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Could you include those image which you want to be included in your version for comparison? —Eloquence 11:25, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)

I have an open mind about images. I would include one "neutral" portrait photo at the head of the article, one Saddam propaganda photo (such as the one in the general's uniform) to show him at the height of his power, half way down, and the bearded post-capture photo to show his fall, at the end. Adam 11:33, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

A "neutral" photo would look something like this:

File:Ac.saddam.jpg

Adam 11:39, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Would it be neutral to include a photograph of him after being captured by U.S. forces? I think it would be appropriate if we included one showing him with the ugly beard. Greenmountainboy 13:13, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Here is a public domain (U.S. Army) photoraph which I think should be included: File:Saddambeard.jpg

Greenmountainboy 13:16, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

*Rolls eyes* Yes, Greenmountain, we already have that photo. Why do people care more about the photos than they do about the text? Adam 13:36, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Because they're easier to look over, and they're more emotional. Isn't that obvious? ;-) —Eloquence

A picture is worth one thousand words. ;-) Greenmountainboy 19:32, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Nevertheless, some comments on the text would be nice. Adam 23:21, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Adam's article is a significant step toward cutting out the irrelevance of this article. However, it requires some modifications before it can replace the current article. In the process of trimming down content dwelling on Ba'athist propaganda techniques, Adam separated Saddam from Arab history a bit too much.

Since too much content was removed, the proposed article reduces Ba'athism to a mere guise for Saddam's Stalinist tactics and programs. When Soviet influence on the ebb, Ba'athism is reduced to Islamist window dressing. In the context of the Cold War, he's portrayed as an Arab "Stalinist" and a "secular ruler." In a post-Cold War context, he's an "Islamist."

In the Cold War era, Westerners failed to distinguish indigenous Third World social revolutionaries from Soviet influence. American cold warriors paid a heavy price for failing to recognize the nationalistic, indigenous roots of the Chinese Communist Party, Arbenz's regime in Guatemala, the Cuban Revolution, Mossadegh's regime in Iran, and the Vietnamese Communists — just to name a handful of examples. Nasser's regime in Egypt is another good example.

Ba'athism is an ideology in its own right, specific to a certain socio-political base of support, and historically specific to a certain era. Saddam tried to promote the pan-Arabism of Nasser, but a number of forces were obtrusive of stability. Iraq was a hostile environment for long-term institutionalization of a stable regime (monarchial, military, "Stalinist", single-party, democratic, or any other form). During the Iraq-Iran War, his narrow base of support, his hostile international environment, and his poorly rooted party/state institutions forced the dictator to turn toward an increasingly personalistic leadership style (and increasingly primitive/brutal tactics of mass control).

While his adoption of Stalinist tactics is well documented, Saddam's brutal tactics, at least by the end, more reminiscent of turf battles among rival tribes and clans than those of totalitarian single-party states. By the time he was ousted, power was highly personalized and arbitrary. It was not derived from a ruling party or the military, but on layer upon layer of patron-client networks. Power was delegated on the basis of loyalty to family, tribe members, and other loyal followers. The proposed replacement stretches the Stalinist, secular, Islamist comparisons too far, and is not engaged enough with Iraqi history. But a just a few more sentences of historical backgrounding would be enough to fix all this. 172 06:01, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

My thanks to 172 for those very astute comments. If he or she would care to make some of the additions to my drafts as suggested, we might then have a candidate to replace the existing article.

I certainly didn't mean to suggest that Saddam was either a Stalinist or an Islamist, either objectively or in his own mind. I meant to suggest that his regime adopted the state structures and some of the economic policies of Stalinism in the period 1968-91, partly to please their Soviet aid-givers and partly because they seemed to work, and some of the rhetoric of Islamism (though not much of the substance) in the period 1991-2003. I agree that in his own mind Saddam was always an Iraqi nationalist and a pan-Arabist. Adam 00:35, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Great, then let's move to replace the main article with your rewrite right away. I'll then add some backgrounding. My concern earlier was that some readers less familiar with Arab history might need some more help. In other words, my concern was that the article expects too much from readers. Your article certainly doesn't state that "Saddam was either a Stalinist or an Islamist, either objectively or in his own mind." Nor does it say that his socialist policies were only designed to please their Soviet aid-givers. However, some readers might come to these conclusions since they lack the background to understand the rise and decline of pan-Arab nationalism in the post-WWII period, the role of weak institutions/political instability, and how revolutionary his regime certainly was before the Iraq-Iran War. Having experience with students who tend to personalize history, maybe I have a tendency to go too far with spoon-feeding. I'll try to keep my additions short.

Anyway, your article is far, far closer to the optimal state than the current article. A lot of the content in the current article could be removed right way, actually, and salvaged in an article on Ba'athist propaganda or Saddam's personality cult. 172 01:30, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Is there a page that discusses the consequences of Saddam's capture. There are at least two immediate significant consequences: 1. Saddam will not be able to just vanish and become the Arab leader that defied the West and was never caught, and 2. Saddam was caught without any resistance, preventing the martyr status that he possibly could have achieved.