Talk:Christianity
See also:
- I think it is clear that this chart is insufficient. No it appears that the Great Apostasy separated the Protestant movement from the Restorationists. I would argue that the differences between, say Lutheran and Baptists are far larger than those between Eastern and Western Rite Catholic (which are on the chart). Yes there exists overlapping theology between some groups but there is overlapping theology between any two Christian groups. I realize some groups like Calvinist Baptists present problems ut that doesn't mean we should lose all detail. Rmhermen 19:19 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
... All that having been said, I do think that a pure timeline might be better. — Mkmcconn 18:56 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I'd rather see a timeline added to the article, while keeping the chart in some form. As far as the Eastern and Western Rite Catholics, it might be better to consolidate those two; Eastern Rite Catholics didn't exist in 1054, they came along several centuries later when they left Eastern Orthodoxy for Roman Catholicism, and the Pope allowed them to keep much of their liturgy etc. as an incentive to win their allegiance. But that detail probably doesn't need to come up in the chart at all. If you want more detail among the various Protestant groups, I'd suggest a separate chart in the Protestantism article or somewhere similar. The problem is where you decide to draw the line as far as level of detail. Wesley 19:34 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- A timeline would be useful but maybe more suitable for the history article. A breakdown of the Protestant sects in the Protestantism or similar article would also be useful and would allow a more detailed break down than could be squeezed into the current chart. I don't see any persuasive reason at this point for breaking out Restorationist sects in this chart. I started briefly on the Restorationism article if any have not seen it yet. B
So now the chart says that Restorationism was in the 19th c., and maybe preceded by the Great Apostasy which was maybe as early as the 1st c. Does this strike anyone else as a little too obvious? Of course any event in the first century would precede an event in the 19th century. I think we're trying to cram too much detail into the chart; a lot of this will have to be saved for the actual text of the articles. I'll try to avoid bringing up the logic problems raised by claiming the church was already apostate in the first century... Wesley 20:23 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- The "19th c" addition has been in the revised version for some time now...the "as early as the 1st c" was added as a suggested alternate to Rmhermen's complaint that the existing Great Apostasy addition made it seem like a break merely b/w Restorationists and Protestant B
- We don't list the causes or rationales for any of the other divisions; I think it makes more sense to remove the mention of Great Apostasy from the chart. It can be discussed better with full sentences in the body of the relevant article(s). Wesley 21:19 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- I Disagree there is a cause/rational and date for nearly each division, and the Great Apostasy is too noteworthy to ignore, but I'm open to some way of noting Great Apostasy w/ greater brevity that isn't too ambiguous. Right now the way it is is fine, its' not hurting anything and its not inconsistent with the rest of the graph. B
- Why do you refuse to sign your posts?
- How would you establish a date for the Great Apostasy? Can you name the year or the decade that the last clergyman died, or any other specific event? Even if it was a gradual process, there should be some event or narrow time frame you can point to and say, because of historical evidence that such and such was said, or such and such was done, the Great Apostasy was definitely complete by this time. This is the case for the other items on the chart. Wesley 17:05 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- By logic problem, I think you mean the ambiguity that it may be read as the Church going apostate before it was formed. What I intended is similar to the Schism which is that it is (presumed as) a gradual process...also presuming that it started as early as the Church itself started to form (not after it formed)...that was the briefest way I could think to state it at the time. B
- Yes... related to that is that you would then have an apostate church before the New Testament was finished being written, let alone canonized, which might call in to question the authority and trustworthiness of the New Testament. And you would have to wonder how effective the Holy Spirit was at Pentecost if the church as a whole immediately started going down the drain. But that doesn't really have anything to do with this article. Wesley 21:19 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Some follow up posts that are more relevant to the Great Apostasy have been moved to its talk page.
Section 8: References vs. List of Christian denominations
Does anybody but me think that the list of Christian groups is a redundant, and less helpful list, compared to List of Christian denominations? Can we delete this list from the end of the article, and clean it up visually a bit? Mkmcconn 20:14 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)~
- Yes, it should be deleted, then merged, if there's extra info, to its much clearer counterpart, List of Christian denominations. The TOC shows how misleading that Reference section is, with each "subheading" containing just one "paragraph" that is just a mere list.
- --Menchi 01:41, Jul 30, 2003 (UTC)
I was looking to link to Athleta Christi, but I can't find an article on it. It seems to be the same as Miles Christi and Soldier of Christ so until anyone is willing to write an article on this title, I'm redirecting them to Christianity. The only articles to mention these titles seemed to be Peter Martin Ngo-Dinh-Thuc, Confirmation (sacrament) and Gjergj Kastriot Skanderbeg. Dori 06:11, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I think a specific subheading addressing the "Moral Decay in the Churches" is in order, which would help the reader to understand the reduction of church attendance. I can bring information to bear from sources such as "The Empty Church" by Thomas C. Reeves, as well as other documents of import.
What do you think? -- Corey 20:18, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- It should probably go in a more specific article about Christianity in a geographic area, or in particular denominations or groups of denominations. Unless your sources really cover the full gamut of reasons, as well as reasons for the rise in church attendance in some areas/denominations/etc. for various reasons. Wesley 04:39, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Chart is very pretty, but fyi: it's "separate" not "seperate" thx.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - Christian denomination??????
As a comment to the definition of Christian denominations: The author claims (like many others), that Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a Christian denomination. I say: NO WAY!!!! Not all who say they are Christians are Christians. If we think, that all who say to believe, that Jesus is religiously important figure to them, are Christians we are led strognly astray.
According to this kind of thinking we can say that Muslims or Hindus are Christians, because they think Jesus as a profet or guru. I agree, that Muslims could be said to be "Christian" heretics, but I think it could be more truthful to say, that Islam is a syncretistic religion made up from all religions Muhammed had heard about, like: Judaism, Christianity, "Christian" heresies, arab paganism, gnosticism etc. Both of these (Muslims, Hidus) have kind of faith in Jesus, but they completely differ in way of understanding His person and work and both Muslims and Hindus have their own religious books.
Like Muslims, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, have kind of faith in Jesus, but not same as is explained in New Testament (which is basic document of Christianity). Their doctrine is completely different than that of Christians and they have their own book, what they think is as authoritative as Bible. All this is against Christianity. Their doctrine is seemingly made up from different religious traditions like Free Masonry (which is as such also a syncretistic religion).
This "claimed to be Chrisitans-but not in reality are" list we could add also Gnostic "Christians" and Jehovas Wittnesses on the basis that they draw their doctrine from somewhere else than from Bible (e.g. from falsified Bible translations or additional filosofies and prophesies).
Those who base their faith solely on Bible and confess Jesus to be their personal Saviour from sin and hell, only way to God and heaven are Christians. I could add to this list a faith to Trinity, full humanity and divinity of Jesus Christ and personal nature of Holy Spirit, corrupted (sinful) nature of humanity, becoming saved by faith alone to Jesus, not by your own good works or religious duties, to be characteristics of true Christianity according to Bible. --anon: 213.243.161.189
- You have some interesting points. However, they are not NPOV. Generally, I think a better measure of Christianity is one's own self-labelling. Do LDS people say they are Christian? If so, then they are Christian. Do Muslims say they are Christian? No, so they are not.
- A few interesting notes on my general feeling. Many Jews for Jesus type folks claim to be Jewish, and I generally feel they should not be counted as Jews. Many Orthodox Jews feel that Reform Jews aren't Jewish. There are many Unitarian Universalists who are Christian, even though Unitarian Universalism isn't a Christian religion (any longer).
- So, a line has to be drawn somewhere. For some, the line will be drawn to tightly. For others, the same line will be drawn too broadly.
- Another view might be to imagine a series of concentric circles, each one representing broader and broader versions of Christianity. At what circle do you stop labelling it Christianity and start labelling it something else? Where does LDS fall on this kind of map of Christianity?
- UtherSRG 16:56, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I personally am not LDS, but I agree with their designation as "Christian" even if I disagree with thier idealogy. They believe that they will become Gods in their salvation, but the point is that they believe that the path to their idea of paradise (receiving their own planet), is only by means of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. According to peter, the confession of God and Christ are the only requirements for being considered Christian.
Corey 21:05, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
It's all a matter of whether you define Christian broadly (and thus more inclusively) or narrowly (and thus more exclusively). The Christianity and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article more fully discusses the issue. The problem with defining Christianity narrowly is that it also presumes a narrower view of history, tradition, interpretation, etc. when such things are debatable and harder to justify the narrower the definition. What the NPOV dictates is that the LDS claim to be Christian and that most of Christianity deny that claim. B 21:47, Dec 11, 2003 (UTC)
- I've become more confortable with designating LDS as Christian, for the purposes of these articles. The depature point is not in the use of the word for self-description, but the meaning of the term - thus, "LDS" is an important qualifier; just as "Trinitarian", "Catholic" or "Protestant" are important in each context. Where this policy is followed, cooperation has been eased, mutual respect has been heightened, and disagreements have been distinguished from prejudices - which, for Wikipedia (even if not for the courts of a church, or before the judgment seat of God), is what matters. (Not sure which statement Corey is thinking of; but if Peter said that, he's wrong! ;-| ) Mkmcconn 22:02, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- I think I'm in agreement with B: NPOV dictates that we pretend we are newcomers to this world and have to put aside our perspectives from our current and past religious (in this case) affiliations. Would these newcomers to our planet be told that LDS is a Christian organization? Would they be told they are not a Christian organization? Would they be told they are Christian, but of a different kind of Christianity than Catholics or Protestants or Amish or... -- UtherSRG 00:33, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- Self designation doesn't work, since that would include many Hindus as Christians. Christianity should be defined more narrowly than this. The view of history need not be narrowed any more than by considering historical evidence that we actually have, and excluding documents that we imagine might have existed. If the LDS is listed as a Christian denomination, there should at least be a visible link to the Christianity and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article (or whatever it happens to be called this month). Wesley 17:53, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- I've never heard of Hindus describing themselves as Christian. I'd like to know more about that. Barring that, I agree that including a link to that article would be a Good Thing(tm). -- UtherSRG 18:40, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I didn't intend for my NPOV comment above to mean self-designation was the applicable rule. I meant given the entirety of the LDS doctrine, its claim deserves to be mentioned along with denials of that claim. Hindus do not become Christian merely by self-designation. B 20:39, Dec 12, 2003 (UTC)
doctrine without Nicene Creed
Maybe I overlooked it, but I didn't see a mention of the Nicene Creed in the doctrine section. Isn't that rather central ?
- I added a link to the ecumenical councils. You make a good point, though, that the bullet list is a summary of statements that have full approval of most branches of Christianity, but the bullet-list itself is not one of those statements. Mkmcconn 06:58, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- My thought was (with the caveat that I'm not a Christian at all) that the Nicene Creed has more or less stood for the definitive summary of Christian doctrine for centuries, and (I think ?) still stands as such for most Christians (that is, I think that the Catholics and the Orthodox together constitute the bulk of Christendom ?) If so, shouldn't it be central to this paragraph ? As it is, it is not even mentioned.
- It is neither more nor less important to Christians than the other ecumenical councils. Historically, it has an important place as the first of these synods; and for that reason it gets more focus: because it marks the turning point in Christianity, when the Church became an establishment of the Roman Empire. Some, mostly non-trinitarians, might refer to this council as the point at which Christanity was lost (as they suppose) through a politically motivated coup (as they depict it). Otherwise, I don't think that Nicea needs to be mentioned with special prominence. Mkmcconn 08:00, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- Are we talking about the same thing ? I'm not talking about the ecumenical council per se, but about the creed, which I think is still recited in the Catholic mass and in the Orthodox liturgy (modulo the Filioque difference), as a recapitulation of faith; if I'm correct here, wouldn't that make it the single most influential summary of Christian doctrine, and therefore at least deserving of a tiny mention (or perhaps more than that) ?
unexplained dotted line in chart ?
What is that funny dotted line in the chart, that seems to imply there is some other "protestant" church from the first century ? (That doesn't sound like it makes any sense, so it ought to at least be explained, no ?)
- There are some churches which claim not to descend from any other church, but who are traceable historically through Protestantism. That funny line indicates their belief that they descend directly from the first century church, with nothing in-between. They are not "protestants", they are a new "restoration". See Restorationism, and Restoration (Mormonism) Mkmcconn 06:42, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- There's a comment to that effect on the chart, just below "Restorationism", but perhaps it could be moved to a position above the dotted line itself? That might make it clearer what the line represents. Unless anyone objects, I'll see if I can change that. -- Vardion 06:49, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)