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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Chthonic (talk | contribs) at 04:38, 19 December 2003 (Dudayev or Dudaev). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

See Talk:Chechnya/Part_1 for old discussions.


Dear Jiang,

I'd repeatedly ask to point specific pieces of information that seems to be doubtful for your. It requires too much time to find stone-proof sources for every minor detail. So, please specify what really seems to be potentially wrong to you. The side of article - is side of facts. It is not pro-Russian, it's just not anti-Russian. I've removed from head of the article everything that may have even low probability of being false. For your convience, I put it here again for you to comment:

  1. After the demise of the Soviet Union,
  2. the group of politics
  3. declared themselves a new parliament
  4. and declared independence as the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria.
  5. As for 2003, the independence is not recognized by any state;
  6. however this declaration caused war conflicts in which
  7. several rival Chechen groups
  8. and the Federal army was involved,
  9. resulted in more than 38,000 deaths in the period of 1991-2002.
  10. On 2003, Federals still do not have full control on the republic.

Please point which facts seem to be possible wrong or where there is biased wording. I'll try then to find ways to make you believe that it's truth.

It is not me, it's you who is trying to insert biased things. The word "illegal" was removed a time ago.

The article from the Columbian Encyclopedia is not accurate. Well, it states that there was a parlament that declared independence. But if you have read the facts, you'd understand that it's misleading, because there are 5 parliaments of interest:

  1. Full quorum Chechen-Ingush Supreme Soviet
  2. Chechen-Ingush Supreme Soviet in building controlled by Dudaev's guards (only part of)
  3. Group of ex-Deputies of the Chechen-Ingush Supreme Soviet
  4. Temporary Chechen Supreme Soviet
  5. National Congress

Can you point which one the Columbian Encyclopedia means? I guess, they meant 3rd one, but it's only a guess - they are not accurate because they don't really care. Please be aware that 1st, 2nd and 4th have never declared independece, while 3rd and 5th did. And now please answer me - what is biased - wording of our article or wording of the Columbian Encylopedia?! We, at Wikipedia, alway has anyone who care. So, it's of better quality on controversal topics that old encyclopedias.

As for listing of presidents - note, not only Chechen Republic and Chinese SARs include references to the head of ruling state, but even such much less strict control links like UK-Australia (Queen of Australia is Elizabeth II of the UK). So, it is a de-facto rule for Wikipedia. You may wish to change this rule, but then I advise you to start from less sensitive territories. Considering that other articles are written by consensus, it seems to be logical that the same form of consensus is ok for this article too.

It doesn't really matter that Russian Government is interested in one-side view. We are talking not about representation, we're talking about facts. And Russian Government is much more accurate about facts related to these sensitive events. Because if there is mistake in the Columbian Encyclopedia, it doesn't really matters, nobody really bothers. If there is mistake in what called facts by the government, there will be huge amount of accusations in the history rewriting. And don't forget, that I referred to this data only to refresh memory. Also, these facts are too complicated and are not used by federal propaganda. To understand situation better, please also refer to my article about teips and also know that only 2 teips (of 130 or even 300) are known to be really pro-Maskhadov. It doesn't mean that there are no other pro-Maskhadov teips, but fact that I don't know about them means that it's unlikely that there are many pro-Maskhadov teips...

Don't ask those who is neutral. Ask those who has knowledge. Or you will end up in lot of stuff that is as ignorant that it even can't be named biased.

Do you have any cause to believe that facts written by me could be wrong? Please don't misbelieve me just because I'm Russian. We are not that bad :-).

So, please, point specific words to me, and I'll try to find believable by you source of knowledge for you.

Drbug 08:46, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'll get back to this article a couple days later when I have a little for time. I do not doubt your facts. Again, the issue is with equal representation of facts. Although the Russian govt may be telling the truth, the truth can be distorted by not telling the whole truth.

Instead of "a group of politics" (do you mean politicans?) give precisely what you mean by "politics". Who? List all these parliaments in the main article so we know.

As for the listing of presidents, it is currently under discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries. I already commented there that in the case of Commonwealth Realms, Queen Elizabeth II rules in her right in that individual realm, as opposed to having that realm be a dependency of the UK. Putin is not president of Chechnya. He is head of state over Chechnya only because Chechnya is part of Russia, not because the Chechen constitution grants him special status. In contrast, if the UK were to abolish its monarchy, Queen Elizabeth would still be Queen of Australia. The crown is separate. She is queen by the virtue of the Constition of Australia, not of the UK. I have removed president of the PRC from the HK and Macau articles since Olivier has dropped his objections. --Jiang 20:23, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Facts: I tryed to rely on facts as much as possible, trying to find facts for the both sides. If I missed something, the only way is to wait until someone who really knows what is missing will add it. I suppose it is a wrong idea to remove some facts due to understanding that it it possible that some other facts are unknown to us. "De facto independent country statement" is not a fact because separatist government missed too much issues that are crucial to be considered as government (even "prehistoric" states like the Kievan Rus missed much less such an issues) - or Harlem may be considered as independent country too.

Columbian Encyclopedia: I don't state that the article is bad or biased (er, maybe a very very bit biased, but not intentionally), but our article is more detailed and more accurate.

Politicians: Yes, I meant politicians. I'd prefer not to put too much details in the head of the article. The timeline is described in the main article below. I'll try to add some more details into the timeline, and probably more details about groups that were involved. I'm happy to do this, but it requires a time that of course no one has... :-(

Presidents: Ok, then I'll shift this table to the format like the British Columbia.

Drbug 12:07, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Is it Dudayev or Dudaev?

chthonic 18 Dec 2003

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