Talk:Creation science

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Religion/Science

.. , Coke/Pepsi, Democrat/Republican, Sean Connery/Roger Moore, etc.

I would like to propose that some debates cannot be resolved. Clearly, this is one of them. The scientific community is not going to accept Creation Science as even a valid title, as it has science in it. And they shouldn't. It's not science. The religious community is not going to accept reams and reams of scientific flaws with it, the Bible, or any other component of their particular flavor of mythology. And they shouldn't -- their belief isn't based on science, and those of us who believe in science, despite our higher I.Q.'s and better haircuts, need to respect their right to believe that. I am biased against religious mythology. I am a scientist. I might burn in Hell -- it's a directional bet I've placed, and if I'm wrong, I've erred badly. So be it. But the people who sincerely believe I'm Hellbound believe so with equal fervor to my belief that they've been brainwashed, and in a forum that is not a peer-reviewed scientific journal nor a religious text, both viewpoints have equal right to be present, and equal right to be criticized and ridiculed by opponents. In fact, I'm sticking my tongue out at the Jesus freaks right now, because I haven't yet learned that this medium doesn't convey facial expressions. But, I digress. I'm sure I had a point. Oh, right, freedom of expression and all that.

I would argue that we should take articles such as this and either separate them into two articles, or section them into multiple sections. Where there are clearly such polar opposites, let both present their side, unfettered by revisions from the other side, who are free to say what they want in their section. In the Miltonian marketplace of ideas, sometimes consensus is unattainable, and it is most fair to the reader -- a concept lost in these debates -- to present both ideas as persuasively as possible and let the reader decide for himself. If the reader is too stupid to make a decision on his or her own, I'm sure his or her minister will be happy to tell him or her exactly how to think on the matter. The current system is unfair to both sides, but more importantly, it is patently unfair to the critical reader, who would like to hear both sides. But it all out there and let people think. Anyone who thinks this is a forum for suppressing ideas as either unscientific or unholy is in the wrong place. Preczewski 16:02, 9 August 2005 (UTC)Preczewski, whose eternal fate, should such exist, is certainly sealed.[reply]

Clearly some boundries have been crossed here, not to mention the obvious incindiary references and tones that compromise the purpose of this site. "I.Q'"s, "haircuts", "brainwashing", and "Jesus Freaks",are undoubtedly the sophomoric fighting words of someone "religiously" over-committed to their "bias". Having two seperate discussion platforms for those with opposing beliefs would kill the challenge and the spirit of this site's purpose. These forums offer you the opportunity to expound upon what you know, discover what you don't, and engage in reasonable debate for all the shades of gray in between. "Freedom of Speech", as you so referenced, in life, and regulated by the rules of this site, allows you substantial room to fuel your comments with the very passion that every subscriber here possesses, but any gutterals of demeaning and childish banter, as in life, immediately expose not only your lack of commitment to the integrity of the site and its rules, but drastically deters your credibility. If you're not brave enough, sound enough, or centered enough to play nice, and are resigned to demanding a forum that comforts your views exclusively, I'm sure there are other sites to stunt the one element that Wiki offers you,...the ability to have beliefs and reasonably coexist with others who don't share them. Emotion without the benefit of logic spoils everyone's efforts here,...and it's not very "scientific".69.76.178.127 20:48, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

An apology

I apologize to anyone offended by my attempts at improving what I saw to be an abuse of fair play. It was furthest from my intent to ruffle the feathers of those who must defend science on a daily basis in the pursuit of their careers. I'm relatively new here, and I saw this article listed on the "third opinion" page. When I came to it, with the NPOV policy fresh in my memory, it seemed very much to run counter to the sections on Pseudoscience and Writing for the enemy. Perhaps I was too bold, made too many changes too quickly. I assure you that I have had, from the beginning, only the desire to see fairness and reason prevail. I realize that, whatever the outcome of the current debate, this will be, by no means, the end of troubles for this article. I hope that, regardless, subsequent editors will be able to, eventually, come to consensus whenever duty calls for it. I'm proud to be associated with such a dedicated, intelligent, and dilligent group of folks as are on this project, and am glad to see that the process, for the most part, works.

Yours, respectfully, Parker Whittle 00:13, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Eastern Orthodox

A new editor, going only by IP (138.130.203.177), has suggested that Eastern Orthodox traditions oppose evolution. The article had previously mentioned that the Eastern Orthodox church has either rejected creation science outright or are ambivalent to it. While both statements could be true (note that the first statement refers to historical traditions) we should be able to find a source for either suggestion. If the Eastern Orthodox church either does not oppose, or does still oppose, evolution, we should be able to find a source. And I do suggest we only make note of a religion's current stance. -- Ec5618 11:39, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

The EO church values the teachings of the Church Fathers very highly, and a 20th century Orthodox Priest, Fr Seraphim Rose, wrote Genesis, Creation and Early Man which documented their YEC teachings with approval. See review.138.130.203.177 13:23, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(Introduction) disputes

This is an attempt to refractor this Talk page (and alleviate tension). See the intact version here or in /Archive 9. A lot of discussion has been going on regarding the introduction, and several points were made. Below are most (some) of the listed. Some of these viewpoints were opposed, but for brevity, I ( Ec5618) have left the opposing argument out when they were just an inversion of the argument.

The introduction of evolution does not contain critisism by creationists, why should the introduction of this article contain critisism by 'evolutionists'.
The introduction should be NPOV, and, according to WP:NPOV policy, should contain either no point of view, or all notable points of view.
Creation science is not science, and this should be made clear in the intro.
If creation science is critised, the critique should be attributed. (To the US NAS, for example).
The opinions of scientists is irrelevant. Only the view of science should count.
There is no single Scientific POV.
Dismissing evolution (disproving or discrediting evolutionary theory) seems to be the most popular goal of creation science.
Creation science is meets the definition of pseudoscience. This point seems to have been removed from the intro after arduous discussion, and would be highly controversial if re-inserted.
Offending creationists in the introduction does not encourage them to read on to the actual argumentation.
The term creation scientist does not, should not, and cannot exist. Scientist implies scientific credibility in a particular field. No-one is trained to be a 'creation scientist'.
People who oppose creation science are (communally) a herd of lemmings.
The title, while containing the term 'science' is not POV, as this is simply the name of the phenomenon.
We should all write for the enemy, and anticipate (defuse) accusations of POV.

I have also copied a short list of quotes, supplied by Dan Watts. It is my hope that this will clarify the stance of proponents of creation science, as it feels to me that even among our editors, many inconsistent notions persist:

"Using these opposing ideas, Initial Complexity vs. Initial Disorganization, we can make predictions about what sort of evidence we should find in many areas of science (biology, paleontology, genetics, physics, astronomy, biochemistry, geology, etc.) if one or the other is true. We can then apply the scientific method to test our predictions and see which set fits better with what we actually observe." [[1]]

"With this in mind, next time we'll start looking at both theories to see which fits better with the evidence that we do have." [[2]]

"As we learn more about the biology of living organisms, including ourselves, it is readily apparent which theory fits the data. [[3]]

"As can be readily seen above, a young universe model fits the data of the low number of observed SNRs." [[4]]

"Rather than insist that everything must be interpreted so as to make it fit into a naturalistic world view, why not investigate each piece of evidence to see if it fits better in the creation or the evolution model?" [[5]]

"Also, even though Morris claims that science can't answer the question of whether the Bible's creation story is literally and historically true, he has written several books about scientific evidence that he believes fits better into a creation framework than the mainstream science framework." [[6]]

Ec5618 12:30, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

The introduction of evolution does not contain criticism by creationists, why should the introduction of this article contain criticism by scientists. More generally stated: Criticism should not be used in place of a definition or description. Bensaccount 13:49, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

because "Creation Science" is not considered a "science" by many. If it had been called "Genesism" or something that didn't attempt to present itself as science, then there would be no confusion because "genesism" wouldn't be trying to redefine a word to mean something other than what it usually means. But because it is called Creation Science, then the fact that the definition of the word is disputed needs mention. FuelWagon 14:06, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you can say that CS proponents are redefining the word science. My point was that criticism should not replace a description. Bensaccount 15:03, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Bensaccount, I have asked you before. Could you please try to formulate a full comment, before hitting 'Save page'? Yes, we all saw that that was your point. You said the exact same thing before. FuelWagon actually responded to your comment. He does not disagree with your comment, but chooses to make another point. While you, Bensaccount, would prefer that there be no criticism in the intro, Fuelwagon feels that that's not the point. He feels that there should be clarificaton in the intro as to the actual scientific status of creation science. That is his point. Please, respond to it. -- Ec5618 15:34, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Yes clarification as to the scientific status of CS belongs in the intro, but scientific status is entirely different from the opinion of scientists. Bensaccount 16:05, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is another way of saying you want the intro to simply state as fact that CS is unscientific based on some objective, indisputable, source of information that you have, rather than reporting that different groups of human beings have different definitions for the word "science". NPOV requires reporting the different views of humans. You're approach basically says "the people who wrote the webster dictionary definition of science are right, and we can refer to that definition as fact". That ain't NPOV. The only way you can clarify the scientific status of CS AND still follow NPOV is to report the different groups and their definition of science. FuelWagon 17:09, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, I said that science is different from the opinion of scientists. You are saying that the two are interchangeable. Bensaccount 00:45, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, how many times are we gonna beat this horse? I say they are different. Your version of "Science" is "fact" and cannot be presented as fact in an article in which your version of science is disputed. The opinions of scientists, such as those behind NAS, can be reported as fact. And just to beat this one more time, that is the point of NPOV. FuelWagon 02:04, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

So you admit that science is different from the opinion of scientists? Bensaccount 02:24, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Right. But do you agree that the scientific status should be clarified? If so, how do you propose we do that. And please keep in mind that simply stating what you believe the scientific status is, is not an option. Obviously.

In my mind, the only way to state that the scientific status of creation science is disputed (which it is, obviously, as evidenced by the history of this article) is to bring up the quite well informed scientific opinion of scientists. Ec5618 16:14, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Once again, the well informed scientific opinion of scientists, is not a measure of what is or is not science, so you can give this opinion, but it does not clarify the scientific status of CS. How do we clarify the scientific status of CS? The same way we clarify anything. Ask yourself, "how do we know that the sun is a star"? We find the most widely understood conventional definition of "star" and see if it applies to the sun. Which leads nicely into the next section. Bensaccount 00:51, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

OK, once again, the "measure of what is science" IS DISPUTED BY CREATION SCIENCE. You cannot "clarify" your definition of science in this article by forwarding it as fact. WEBSTER'S DEFINTIION IS A POINT OF VIEW here. Your "most widely understood definition" DOES NOT APPLY in this article because CREATION SCIENCE SPECIFICALLY DISPUTES IT. NPOV says report he mainstream point of view as the mainstream point of view rather than as fact. FuelWagon 02:06, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Conventional definitions are not POV. If everyone used different definitions of words there would not be any communication. Bensaccount 02:30, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A definition is POV if the topic of the article is about a group that disputes that definition. If you're talking about something unrelated to science, you can use the mainstream definition of science in the article as a fact. If you're talking about "Mary Poppins", you don't have to say "the mainstream view of science" if you wanted to use the word "science" in teh article. You could just say "Mary' Poppin's ability to fly with her umbrella is unscientific" or whatever, because the definition of science is not in dispute on that article. THE DEFINITION IS IN DISPUTE HERE. Creation Science disputes the mainstream definitino of science, which means you cannot refer to the mainstream definition of science as undisputed fact, but as the mainstream view of science. FuelWagon 02:39, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No we avoid neologisms and use the same widely understoond meanings regardless of the article. Bensaccount 13:41, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view" "(some editors) believe Wikipedia should adopt a "scientific point of view" rather than a "neutral point of view." However, it has not been established that there is really a need for such a policy" (from NPOV policy). You can call it neologisms. You can hide behind webster. You can keep playing all these word games. But NPOV policy is clear. represent the scientific view as the scientific view. FuelWagon 14:08, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Cutting and pasting long irrelevant rants into multiple threads is called trolling. Bensaccount 14:14, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Definitions

There have been quite a few references to the definition of science and pseudoscience, in support of the argument that the position of the scientific community should be stated as facts, and does not constitute a POV. For reference, I would like to include the definitions we're talking about. It seems to me that these definitions do not exactly settle the dispute.

In particular: the definition given of science seems to be somewhat broader than that used by the scientific community (and, IMO, the definition of pseudoscience should be taken in that context).

Main Entry: sci·ence
Function: noun
3 a : accumulated and accepted knowledge that has been systematized and formulated with reference to the discovery of general truths or the operation of general laws : knowledge classified and made available in work, life, or the search for truth : comprehensive, profound, or philosophical knowledge; especially : knowledge obtained and tested through use of the scientific method b : such knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : NATURAL SCIENCE
synonym see KNOWLEDGE

"science." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (9 Aug. 2005).

Main Entry: pseu·do·science
Function: noun
: a system of theories, assumptions, and methods erroneously regarded as scientific

"pseudoscience." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (10 Aug. 2005).

Main Entry: scientific method
Function: noun
: the principles and procedures used in the systematic pursuit of intersubjectively accessible knowledge and involving as necessary conditions the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and if possible experiment, the formulation of hypotheses, and the testing and confirmation of the hypotheses formulated

"scientific method." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (10 Aug. 2005).
(added Parker Whittle 18:00, 10 August 2005 (UTC))[reply]

--Parker Whittle 14:59, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Main Entry: natural science Function: noun

any of the sciences (as physics, chemistry, or biology) that deal with matter, energy, and their interrelations and transformations or with objectively measurable phenomena

[7]

CS does not fit any definition of science that involves the scientific method, since there is no systematic method for gaining knowledge about Creation. CS does not fit any definition of science that uses the words experimenation, or observation, since it is not possible to observe Creation. CS does not fit the definition of natural science, given that Creation is not objectively measurable. Bensaccount 15:17, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is irrelevant. It is also POV. You are holding the dictionary definition of "science" as the true definition of science. But science is a human endeavor and it is defined by humans. In fact, it has changed over time. There is no single definition of science, there is only the different views of what is and is not scientific. In this case, Creation Science holds one definition and NAS holds another. Those views must be presented as such to adhere to NPOV. Webster's definition is not fact, and is directly disputed by CS. FuelWagon 17:13, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Actually if you look into the philosophy of science you will see that modern science relies on the popperian definition of falsifiability. This strange relativism of the knowledge is, in my opinion, just irrational. --Nova77 17:24, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Not only irrational but also harmful, since the job of the encyclopedia editor is to define subjects in conventional terms. Bensaccount 01:19, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It seems clear to me that the definitions, above, do not exclude definitions of science that are opposed, or a modification of, the definitions used in the scientific community. Qualified statements such as "...especially...through use of the scientific method...", "...interrelations and transformations or with objectively measurable phenomena..."; the definition of scientific method which does not assert the same degree of formalism as that used among the majority of scientists, all indicate that we are talking about language games with different rules. Neither side should be granted the privilege of declaring their game and rules as absolutely authoritative. Position of the majority, stated as such, and position of the minority, stated as such, seems exactly what the WP:NPOV policy calls for. --Parker Whittle 18:00, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'll agree with the words you chose: 'gaining knowledge about Creation'. -- Ec5618 15:34, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Any science to CS?

What is your definition of what the Creation Research Society does? (See [[8]] e.g.) Are they not reporting research, or are they not studying what they think that they are researching? Dan Watts 16:01, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone can do scientific experiments, and if the scientific method is properly followed, the activity is called science. When someone claims to be doing scientific experiments on Creation, they are claiming to be doing Creation science and since Creation is unobservable, this activity is unscientific. Bensaccount 00:25, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

So by your definition any study of paleobiology, archaeology, or any other study of long-ago things; since the long-ago action is unobservable, it is also not science. Please elucidate. Dan Watts 02:57, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Paleobiology: fossils of animals and plants are observable. Archaeology: architecture, artefacts, biofacts, human remains, and landscapes are observable. Bensaccount 04:03, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The earth is observable. Studying the earth for evidence of creation is to Creation Science as studying fossils for evidence of how the (unobservable) plants or animals lived is to paleobiology. Q.E.D. Dan Watts 14:38, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thats a non-sequitur. We can use fossils to make observations about ancient animals because we can observe that fossils are the remnants of ancient animals based on the fact that we can observe the formation of fossils and we can see the shape of the animals. We can not use "the earth" to make observations of creation in any way. Unless you have found God's signature on it somewhere. Bensaccount 14:58, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The society is not one that encourages or discourages research or study. They are simply a frateral group of creation science advocates that anyone (that is to say, all levels of scientific training) is allowed to join. Joshuaschroeder 16:29, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I fail to see how the CRS does not encourage research. Perhaps you could look at the link provided above. Dan Watts 19:58, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

CRS encourages its members who believe in CS. That is what their mission statement states explicitly. CRS does not endorse basic science research, peer review research, research institutions, etc. Joshuaschroeder 20:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If you will peruse [9] you will see:

"The primary functions of the Society are:

Publication of a quarterly peer-reviewed journal.

Conducting research to develop and test creation models.

The provision of research grants and facilities to creation scientists for approved research projects.

Providing qualified scientists to speak to groups or churches."

The first three points appear to be in disagreement with your statement. ("You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means" - Inigo) Dan Watts 21:35, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The "peer-reviewed journal" is not a peer-reviewed journal in the sense that there is a requirement external to science for the peer-review itself. The "research" that they promote is of any kind including bible study, etc. And the provision of research grants includes gaining non-profit status according to the literature on their website. The lot of them are pseudoscientific hoodwinks. Joshuaschroeder 03:18, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Peer review is not REALLY peer review, CS research includes subjects that YOU find unacceptable, research grants have stipulations. Horrors! Tar and feather the whole lot and run them out of town on a rail! (You could simply state that you don't care for them without using untrue, or at least very misleading, statements.) Dan Watts 14:38, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What is misleading or untrue about the characterizations? The "peer review" process and the "research grants" supported by the group explicitly forbids competent scientists in fields who are not Christians. The issue is whether they endorse basic scientific research, peer review, or scientific institutions. That they do not since they have added stipulations above and beyond science. It has nothing to do with the "subject", it has to do with how they operate. I have no personal agenda against the group, but claiming that they represent some sort of counterexample as a CS group that is scientific is a claim unsubstantiated by evidence they themselves provide in their own literature. Joshuaschroeder 14:43, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Should we stop trying to define CS?

My point, of course, being that the definitions, themselves, do not settle the issue. As demonstrated by the response, the definitions lead to further clarifications and arguments regarding what does and doesn't satisfy the definition. I think we can safely say at this point that stating the definition as fact is simply another way of referring to the standing debate. --Parker Whittle 15:48, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The definitions show that CS doesn't fit any definition of science that involves the scientific method, experiment, or observation. To avoid any trace of ambiguity one can use more conventional definitions, such as "natural science" or "social science". Bensaccount 00:31, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

CReation SCience defines itself as scientific. Your continued appeal to the dictionary is moot here. Their view is that they are scientific. And so you must report opposing views that have different definitions as opposing views, not as fact. You can keep hiding behind the word "definition" all you want, but it doesn't apply here because CS specifically disputes your definition of the word. FuelWagon 02:10, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I like to use the dictionary to define words. What do you use? Bensaccount 02:21, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why yes, I have stopped beating my wife. Thank you for noticing. FuelWagon 02:40, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What I'm about to describe is, IMO, extremely bad science, if at all. I include it here merely for the purpose of illustration: CS advocates can interpret existing observations under the assumption that they must not contradict the young earth/divine creation hypothesis. They can propose theories to explain how these observations could indicate a false positive, supporting an old earth/naturalistic origin in appearance, only. They can then predict a number of observations that could confirm their theories, in exclusion to others, and they can conduct experiments to test those predictions. If their experiments fail, they can revise their theories, and predict new observations. Again, this is, IMO, a perversion of the scientific method, I call it pseudoscience, because it meets almost none of the criteria of science listed by the NAS. However, it does seem to satisfy the dictionary definitions of science, as stated above. If you are arguing for definitions different than these, then it is either original research, which is disallowed, or the point of view of the NAS (or some other body), which must be cited. --Parker Whittle 03:45, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In order to stop you from continuing to spread obfuscation, rhetoric and lies I ask that you state at least one "observation" of Creation. Otherwise it does not meet any definition that uses the words "observation" "experimentation" or "scientific method". Bensaccount 04:03, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There is horse meat splattered all over, but we just keep beating the same carcass. Any question by you demanding someone show how CS meets the definition of Science is irrelevant, because the definition of science is disputed by Creation Science. Report the different definitions from the different sources, neither definition can be reported as fact. CS says it is scientific because blah. NAS says CS is not science. NPOV policy cannot be anymore clear. FuelWagon 04:21, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You can not force people to stop trying to use words that best fit the subject. It is harmful to the writing. Bensaccount 13:57, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A) Drop the ad hominem attacks, right now. I am civil to you, and stick to the arguments. I expect the same from you. B) I have said nothing about theories or observations of divine creation -- you did, and you won't drop them. I mentioned theories and observations that don't contradict the young earth/divine creation hypothesis, followed by experiments that would support their theories and observations. In other words, a creationist can go through the mental gymnastics required to propose contorted but naturalistic theories that don't contradict the Biblical account, put those theories to the test using the scientific method, and there you would have Creation Science. Much like the epicycles Ptolemy used to describe the orbits in a geocentric universe, it's a gross distortion of reality in order to fit observed reality into a flawed prior assumption, but it satisfies the definitions of science listed above. Very, very bad science, pseudoscience as the NAS describes it, but within the broader dictionary definition of science. --Parker Whittle 04:44, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Creation science" is demarcated from science in that it deals with Creation. If it is science but doesn't deal with creation, it is not Creation science. Once again, you can not claim CS fits any definition of science that involves the scientific method, observation, or experimentation, since Creation is unobservable. Bensaccount 13:57, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view" "(some editors) believe Wikipedia should adopt a "scientific point of view" rather than a "neutral point of view." However, it has not been established that there is really a need for such a policy" (from NPOV policy). You can call it neologisms. You can hide behind webster. You can keep playing all these word games. But NPOV policy is clear. represent the scientific view as the scientific view. FuelWagon 14:09, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

So you're back to claiming that the status of CS as science equals the opinion of scientists. Bensaccount 14:18, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please, read the comment. Fuelwagon clearly said represent the scientific view as the scientific view. Ec5618 14:15, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

And I said that CS didn't fit certain definitions of science. I am trying to clarify the scientific status of CS. He is trying to say that the status of CS as science equals the opinion of scientists. (Or worse, the opinion of CS proponents). Bensaccount 14:18, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please, read the comment. Fuelwagon clearly said represent the scientific view as the scientific view. View being the operative word. Please, just look at it -> view. As in, not necessarily fact. The scientific status of creation science is disputed. You might not believe it, but there are actually people who look at the same evidence you have, and still believe that creation science is science, is some form. They disagree with you. They do not agree that creation science is not science.

However, luckaly, the scientific community agrees with you. Most scientists feel (view) creation science as unscientific. And thankfully, most people will agree with scientists, in matters of science. Please, read the comment. Fuelwagon clearly said represent the scientific view as the scientific view. Ec5618 14:28, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Fuelwagon says we should represent views as views. I said we shouldn't represent facts as views. The status of something as science depends on facts, not views. Bensaccount 14:41, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, I have always stood for NPOV policy to be followed. Report the majority view as the majority view. You seem so wrapped up in some concern that if you represent it as a view, then people with think its just an opinion, and then maybe their entire capacity for logic sense will fail them, and they won't be able to tell for themselves if CS is scientific or not. That's what this all comes down to. You want to tell everyone in the article that CS is not science and you don't care that it's completely against NPOV policy. Oh no! it a neologism! Webster says so! an opinion of science isn't the same as science! ACK! I have done nothing but push NPOV policy here. Report the scientific view as the scientific view. You can twist and flail around all you want. But policy is clear. Report it as a view. FuelWagon 14:20, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"You seem so wrapped up in some concern that if you represent it as a view, then people with think its just an opinion" -- Facts are different from opinions. If you represent facts as opinions then yes. People will think they are opinions. Bensaccount 14:32, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

OMG. From NPOV policy "The task is not to describe disputes as though, pseudoscience is on par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view" [10]. Policy directly addresses your concern and clearly states "REPORT THE VIEWS". FuelWagon 14:34, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Facts are not views. Bensaccount 14:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the policy does not directly address this concern. The policy addresses whether or not psuedoscience should be established as !credible or false, _not_ whether it should be established as pseudoscience. In other words, it deals with the VIEW on pseudoscience, not the establishment of a subject as psuedoscience. These are very different. Bear in mind that I'm not pushing any particular article version or wording, I'm just trying to explain that there may be a difference of opinion because you're interpreting the NPOV policy differently. SVI 14:59, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, creation science advocates redefine the terms "scientific method", "observation", and "experimentation" all to fit their own ends in order to argue with those who oppose them. Which is simply more evidence for why it is objectively a pseudoscience since it sets itself up oppositionally to the endeavor of science as a whole. Joshuaschroeder 14:00, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps examples of redefined "observation" and "experimentation" would shed light (and reduce heat?) on this discussion. Dan Watts 14:38, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

When Henry Morris claims that no evidence for evolution has ever been observed, that is redefining what "observation" means. When an unpublished report claiming that dead animals settle out in a flooded tank in an order that mimics the fossil record that is redefining what "experimentation" means. These are, of course, all within the bounds of somebody creating their own means for making claims, but we're talking about the difference between CS and science. Here they are. Joshuaschroeder 16:08, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Bensaccount argument and his fear

(posted by FuelWagon 15:08, 11 August 2005 (UTC))[reply]

OK, I'm done going in circles. Bensaccount has several approaches, but they boil down to two basic arguments: (1) expressing an opinion weakens science and (2) definitions are not POV. All the different variations of these two arguments are posted below. all were cut and pasted from the current talk page, so you can find them and get diffs if you want.

Argument: Essentially, his chain of argument goes like this:

(a) Facts are not NPOV (which I agree with)

(b) definitions are facts (which I completely disagree with)

(c) since definitions are facts, we don't have to express them as views

The problem is that (b) doesn't apply here. There is nothing in NPOV policy about pseudoscience that says "report the definition of science as fact and report anything that disagrees with that definition to be factually pseudoscientific". NPOV policy says "report the view as a view.

Fear: Part of Bensaccount reasoning appears to be driven by his fear that "reporting a view isn't as strong as reporting fact". NPOV policy also addresses this saying you can clearly report that the majority is clearly an overwhelming majority, and that a minority is clearly a minority (assuming you source such quantifiers. You can't say 99.999% unless you have an outside source to support saying 99.999%).

In any event, I'm done chasing this around in circles. His logic contains a fundamental flaw at step (b) because definitions can be treated as fact only if they are not disputed. CS disputes the definition. Therefore the definition of science must be reported as a view. The reason for this fallacy appears to be driven by his fear that the mainstream scientific view will be greatly weakened if it is reported as a view.

At this point, I'm simply going to refer to this section and subsection in response to all of his replies. His pattern is clear. He has a three-step argument (a), (b), (c), which contains a logical fallacy at (b), and he occaisionally reveals his fear that 'reporting it as a view will weaken it' and sometimes attempts to convince people to take on his same fear.

My counter to all this is NPOV policy. It clearly states represent the scientific view as a view. And it clearly states that reporting something as a view does not automatically put it on par with every other view.

Here are all of his quotes, placed into one of two groups: (I) his fear that expressing it as an opinion makes it weaker, and (II)the logical fallacy that definitions are fact and therfore NPOV. Pretty much everything he has posted so far around this can be placed into one of these two categories.

(I) expressing it as opinion weakens science

"science is different from the opinion of scientists"[11]

"you can give this opinion, but it does not clarify the scientific status of CS"[12]

"Criticism should not be used in place of a definition or description"[13]

"the status of CS as science equals the opinion of scientists"[14]

"If you represent facts as opinions then yes."[15]

(II) Definitions are not POV

"Conventional definitions are not POV"[16]

"we avoid neologisms and use the same widely understoond meanings regardless of the article"[17]

"CS does not fit any definition of science that involves the scientific method" [18]

"the job of the encyclopedia editor is to define subjects in conventional terms" [19]

"Anyone can do scientific experiments, and if the scientific method is properly followed, the activity is called science." [20]

"The definitions show that CS doesn't fit any definition of science that involves the scientific method, experiment, or observation. To avoid any trace of ambiguity one can use more conventional definitions, such as "natural science" or "social science". [21]

"I ask that you state at least one "observation" of Creation. Otherwise it does not meet any definition that uses the words..." followed by a list of mainstream science terms [22] (can't find the diff in the history. you can click on the link there and do a search and you'll find it. Bensaccount must have posted something and then changed it later or something weird happened. The signature/timestamp doesn't line up with the diff in the history, but I can see the text in the rev provided.)

"I said that CS didn't fit certain definitions of science. I am trying to clarify the scientific status of CS." [23]

"Facts are not views" [24]

Would you mind if I fixed these misquotations or would that ruin your charade? Bensaccount 15:11, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'll get diffs for each. give me a minute...FuelWagon 15:14, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Would you like me to correct this or just leave it? Bensaccount 15:24, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What are you trying to prove still Bensaccount, he's just quotd you, and cited irrefutable sources for these quotes. And I agree with his post. Ec5618 15:30, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

I think most of these quotations speak for themselves, if you disregard the inappropriate headings. My only request is that you get them right. For example: "the status of CS as science equals the opinion of scientists" Is me paraphrasing FuelWagon. I disagree with this so don't attribute it to me. Bensaccount 15:33, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I figured that. Anything else? Could you please address the (a), (b), (c)-issue? And please, call people by their names. -- Ec5618 15:39, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

You didn't paraphrase me, Bensaccount, you countered with your own argument. I've done nothing but try to get NPOV policy followed in this article, by quoting it, explaining it, and pointing out where the article doesn't meet it. Your "paraphrase" has nothing to do with NPOV policy. That's your version of what I said, not what I said. FuelWagon 15:48, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What you did is called a misquotation. Bensaccount 15:50, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I actually did paraphrase you, because I cut and pasted your words, rather than giving my interpretation of what you said. You can argue about the proper place to end the cut/paste, but that is not a matter of misquoting, its a matter of whether it is takes too much out that it is out of context. What I left out was a piece that said "that uses the words" and then listed mainstream scientific terms. In my opinion, that part is irrelevant because the basis for that sentence is that you're arguing that CS doesn't meet the definition of science, and the definition is fact, so the article can simply say CS is not science. It is the (a),(b),(c) argument again, with (b) being the logical fallacy. FuelWagon 17:57, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake, my only request is that user:Fuelwagon get them right. "I ask that you state at least one "observation" of Creation. Otherwise it does not meet any definition" -- The correct version: "I ask that you state at least one "observation" of Creation. Otherwise it does not meet any definition that uses the words "observation" "experimentation" or "scientific method"." Bensaccount 15:46, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You miss the point. your definitions using the words "observation", "experimentation", or "scientific method" are mainstream science definitions. You demand that CS meet those definitions or you will "disqualify" them as science. That is completely counter to NPOV policy. Report the view as a view. And the definition of science is a view in this case. FuelWagon 15:54, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am merely trying to fix your misquotations!!!Bensaccount 15:57, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Facts are different from opinions. If you represent facts as opinions then yes. People will think they are opinions. Bensaccount 15:48, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As for the rest of Fuelwagons essay: I have never been more thoroughly misunderstood. Bensaccount 15:58, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please exp1ain your position then. Succinctly and in one place. Synaptidude 16:06, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ill do it later. Right now the quotations (the correct versions) give a good indication of my position, if you disregard the headings. Bensaccount 16:13, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My current position, succinctly stated, is that we should clarify the scientific status of CS but not appeal to the opinion of scientists. As for FuelWagons ridiculous summary: a) Facts are not POV. b) definitions are different from facts, & c) since definitions are the basis for communication, we don't have to express them as views. Bensaccount 21:36, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Bowing out for a while

Running through this entire debate, I sense that there is a rather different issue at stake than the NPOV content of an encyclopedia article. It seems to me that among the parties embroiled in the larger conflict between scientific and religious views of the origins of the universe, this article is seen as one of the latest battlegrounds.

I cannot stress emphatically enough how inappropriate I feel it is for either side of the conflict to attempt to wield this project as a weapon of mass distraction, if you will, in their struggle.

If truth is the territory we seek to defend, then I think it behooves us to help our opponents formulate the strongest possible arguments against our entrenched position, enabling us to escape the complacency afforded by an easy argument, and break free onto the higher ground of elevated dialogue. As Popper argued, while truth is the proper aim of science, we cannot know for sure whether or not we are approaching or retreating from our goal. But we can do our best to ensure that, at the very least, we are engaging in the most interesting problems available. If we engage our opponents only on their weakest arguments, then we ignore the their most sophisticated thinkers, and enclose ourselves in a static provincial enclave of our own design. We claim victory on a small plot of turf, while the homeland goes up in flames around us.

The spirit of the Wikipedia, IMO, is to remain aloof from this conflict, and to present the absolute best that all sides have to offer, in the interest of fostering a meaningful and ongoing quest for the truth.

That being said, I'm going to bow out for a while, in the hope that the pathos attached to this debate will subside, and that cooler heads will prevail.

Respectfully, Parker Whittle 17:49, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Bravo Parker Whittle! I couldn't have put it half as well myself. Synaptidude 19:26, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]