Jump to content

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Peerage and Baronetage

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cimon Avaro (talk | contribs) at 09:57, 10 January 2004 (vote). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Peerage/Archived talk 1

First Poll
Ought articles on peers include in their titles a reference to the highest peerage title of the subject? (Note: this does not apply to life peers.)

  • Yes, the peerage title should be included (in the article's title), either in all cases, or when certain criteria are fulfilled.
    1. Adam 02:36, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    2. Mackensen 04:12, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    3. john
    4. Stan 06:27, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    5. PMA 06:32, Jan 9, 2004 (UTC)
    6. Hephaestos
    7. Lord Emsworth 11:31, Jan 9, 2004 (UTC)
    8. Mintguy 13:22, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    9. Flauto Dolce 14:45, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    10. Adam Bishop 15:15, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    11. James F. (talk) 21:18, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    12. Jiang 22:35, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    13. FearÉIREANN 22:54, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  • No, the peerage title should not be included (in the article's title), except when necessary to disambiguate between two peers of the same name.
    1. Follow the standard Wikipedia practice of "most commonly used name in English". If the version with the peerage title is more common, use it; if not, don't. --Delirium 08:52, Jan 10, 2004 (UTC)
    2. Total agreement with Delirium. Maybe I would go even further, and state that the inclusion of titles should be a rare occurence, and only done, when doing anything else would be even more idiosyncratic and clumsy. -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 09:57, Jan 10, 2004 (UTC)

Second Poll
Ought there to be exceptions to the general rule that articles on peers include in their titles a reference to the highest peerage title of the subject?

  • Yes, there should be exceptions, based on criteria such as the rarity of the use of the peerage title.
    1. Stan 06:27, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC) (but very few exceptions)
    2. Hephaestos
    3. Adam Bishop 15:15, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    4. Delirium 08:52, Jan 10, 2004 (UTC) (of course; this is Wikipedia standard practice)
    5. Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 09:57, Jan 10, 2004 (UTC) (fundamental, peers should only get special treatment where to do otherwise would be awkward)
  • No, all articles on peers should include a reference to the peerage in their titles.
    1. Adam 02:36, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    2. Mackensen 04:12, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    3. john
    4. PMA 06:35, Jan 9, 2004 (UTC)
    5. Lord Emsworth 11:35, Jan 9, 2004 (UTC)
    6. Mintguy 13:22, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    7. Flauto Dolce 14:45, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    8. James F. (talk) 21:18, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    9. Jiang 22:35, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    10. FearÉIREANN 22:54, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Deadline: 16 January 2004
Quorum: eight voters. - Achieved.
Only users who have been registered for at least one week and have no less than twenty non-minor edits may vote.

-- Clarence Threepwood, 9th Earl of Emsworth

Adam 02:36, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC) (rightful King of England)

Your Majesty, does placing your name next to mine indicate your support for my proposal? -- Lord Emsworth 02:40, Jan 9, 2004 (UTC)

Um, I think I recorded votes above. I voted for titles in all cases, even when the titles were bestowed by Tudor-Stuart-Welf usurpers of the rightful Plantagenet line (ie, me). Move them if they are not in the right place. Adam 02:43, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Oh, I am dreadfully sorry for causing a misunderstanding. I meant to ask if placing your name below mine meant that you wished to indicate your agreement with my suggestions relating to the form of the polls, the deadline, the quorum, and other elements. -- Lord Emsworth

I agree with your suggestions. Let's get to voting. john 03:16, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Just to note that I'd be just as happy (possibly more happy) with a "very few exceptions" policy (as Stan suggests), as with an extreme all peerage position, so long as some kind of very clear standard can be determined, since otherwise we end up with irritating articles like Robert Stewart, 2nd Marquess of Londonderry, which is just unrecognizable. But I'm still having a hard time figuring out what such a standard should be, so I'm keeping with the no exceptions position for the moment... john 06:40, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

That would only be irritating in a paper encyclopaedia where you looked up "Castlereagh" and he wasn't there. In this encyclopaedia it doesn't matter a toss, because anyone doing a search for Castlereagh will be taken straight to the article they want. I absolutely fail to see what is the problem with this naming convention. Adam 06:50, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Well, I mean, I don't have a serious problem with it (I voted for it, after all). I just think it gets rather unfortunate for people best known by a courtesy title, like Castlereagh or North, or whoever. But other options are probably worse, so what are you going to do? john 06:57, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The fundamental question is, does the encyclopaedia exist for the benefit of Lord Castlereagh, or for the benefit of readers? My view is the latter. Readers have two interests: to find what they are looking for, and to learn things. By listing the article under Robert Stewart, 2nd Marquess of Londonderry, with a redirect from Lord Castlereagh, we enable any reader who wants to read about Castlereagh to find the article in question, even if they have never heard of the Marquessate of Londonderry, and we enable said reader to learn that Castlereagh was actually not a Viscount, but the son of a Marquess who in turn became a Marquess. Thus we have added to human enlightenment and can all go to bed feeling pleased with ourselves. Adam 13:59, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I've voted that the articles should include a reference to their titles if they have any, but I think the question is a little unclear - where will the reference be? In the title of the article, or in the text? For example, I don't think it's necessary to have Bertrand Russell as "Bertrand Russell, 3rd Lord Russell"...although maybe he is called that normally elsewhere. I know I might normally call Julian Byng "Viscount Byng of Vimy," but I suspect non-Canadians may not. Another concern is with people whose actual names are rarely ever used. I don't think I could have told you what Lord North or Lord Castlereagh's real names are...but, I would say their articles should include their real names in the title, so redirecting to Robert Stewart is better. I hope this makes sense! Adam Bishop 15:15, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, the question is about article titles, not just the text of the article. So we'd have Bertrand Russell, 3rd Earl Russell, and Julian Byng, 1st Viscount Byng of Vimy, or what not. The proposal is that the format for all peers be Forename (Middlename) Surname, #th Peeragerank (of) Peeragetitle. I think this probably only proves particularly confusing in the case of people like Castlereagh or North known primarily by courtesy titles. john 19:20, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I have already argued above, twice, that it is not at all confusing, even in these cases. Why not engage with my argument, rather than just repeating the assertion? Adam 01:59, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Well, for Castlereagh, it's awkward that the article about a man universally known as "Castlereagh" does not contain the world "Castlereagh" in the article title. I don't think it's a fatal flaw, but I think it's less than ideal. The ideal, of course, would be that there weren't any people who were best known by courtesy titles or by peerage titles different from the ones they eventually attained. Since that's impossible, we'll just need to figure out how to deal with it. There are various ways one might do this. Is just using the highest peerage title regardless the best of a number of flawed solutions? I think so (see: my vote on this issue), but I can very easily see where others might disagree. At any rate, I'm perfectly happy with an article on the 2nd Marquess of Londonderry myself, I just fear that trying to do stuff like that will cause large scale rebellion among people like Hephaestos, and others who aren't normally interested in these kinds of articles. So, in essence, I don't really disagree with you. and if no backlash occurs, I'll be overjoyed that it's all worked out so well... john 02:28, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hey, a somewhat different question. There have been various people who have held one peerage title of a certain rank, and then, at some point, inherited another title of the same rank that is more senior. I think, specifically, of Daniel Finch, 2nd Earl of Nottingham, who, very late in life, long after his retirement, inherited the Earldom of Winchilsea. I'd hate to see us forced to move the article on him to Daniel Finch, 7th Earl of Winchilsea...any thoughts on issues like this? What's been discussed before is that if the ordinal is different for the two earldoms (or whatever), you just use the senior one, but I think some discretion on this is in order... john 02:33, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

But strictly speaking, John, do you not agree that if it is acceptable to put Robert Stewart, Viscount Castlereagh at Robert Stewart, 2nd Marquess of Lansdowne,

Well, I wouldn't find that acceptable, what with him having been Marquess of Londonderry ;-) john 04:24, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
then it would equally be acceptable to put Daniel Finch, 2nd Earl of Nottingham at Daniel Finch, 7th Earl of Winchilsea? In other words, would not any argument that would generally hold true for the former also hold true for the latter? -- The Earl of Emsworth.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware that one Earldom is "senior" to another. It could be older, but that is not the same thing. If he held two Earldoms then he should be called Daniel Finch, 2nd Earl of Nottingham and 7th Earl of Winchilsea. Adam 02:43, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Adam, the general rule for the precedence of peerage titles of the same rank is: First, titles in the Peerage of England (pre-1707), then the Peerage of Scotland (pre-1707), then the Peerage of Great Britain (post-1707, pre-1801), then the Peerage of Ireland (pre-1801), and lastly the Peerage of the United Kingdom and the Peerage of Ireland (post-1801). Within a given peerage, the titles gain precedence in the order of their creation. -- Lord Emsworth 02:48, Jan 10, 2004 (UTC)

Ah yes silly me, I did know that once. So how would you title Finch? Adam 03:02, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

If the rule that the higher peerage title be included in the article title, then we would have Daniel Finch, 7th Earl of Winchilsea, but Daniel Finch, 2nd Earl of Nottingham would to such a location redirect. -- Lord Emsworth 03:11, Jan 10, 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps we could do, Daniel Finch, 7th Earl of Winchilsea, 2nd Earl of Nottingham, or something, for individuals who inherit a more senior peerage of the same rank to one they held earlier. So we'd then have, Philip Herbert, 4th Earl of Pembroke, 1st Earl of Montgomery, Charles Mordaunt, 3rd Earl of Peterborough, 1st Earl of Monmouth, and so forth, but their successors would just list the senior title? john 04:24, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I suppose what I'm missing out of this whole debate is what's wrong with Daniel Finch. We don't, after all, have President George Herbert Walker Bush of the United States of America. I don't see why "peerage" titles are any different than office or "life peerage" titles from a Wikipedia page-naming point of view. As generally one would refer to Robert Harley, not to Robert Harley, 1st Earl of Oxford and Mortimer, this seems pretty obvious. And in many modern cases the titles are completely superfluous to who the person is, and are just historical vestiges, in which case they shouldn't even be mentioned in the first paragraph, let alone the title. --Delirium 08:57, Jan 10, 2004 (UTC)

The man was never called Daniel Finch, among other things. He is known in history as the Earl of Nottingham or Lord Nottingham, or whatever. As far as the general question, the basic issue is that, at present, there's absolutely no uniformity as to whether or not the peerage title is to be in the article title or not. The idea is that we create a standard way of doing it so that there aren't consistency issues like that. And since Robert Harley redirects to Robert Harley, 1st Earl of Oxford and Mortimer, anyway, I'm not sure what the problem is. Unlike your "President George Herbert Walker Bush" example, peerage titles are not simply titles, but actually a part of the person's name, as we've discussed above. Which is why they're different from office titles. The standard of just completely ignoring life peerage titles is, perhaps, not quite properly correct, but is defensible from the standpoint that 1) it is, nevertheless, a completely consistent standard; and 2) Life Peers are practically never known by their peerage titles. With hereditary peers, most are generally known by their peerage title (although this is sometimes also their surname), but some are not. So we could either choose to be inconsistent, leaving us with the current irritating question of where articles should go, we could choose to be consistent by completely ignoring peerage titles, which would be highly problematic in most cases (Henry Temple would hardly be a useful place for an article on Palmerston), or we can be consistent by just including peerage titles, which only really creates (minor) problems in a very small number of cases (basically people who are known by lesser peerage titles than the highest one they eventually received. (Articles like Harold Macmillan, 1st Earl of Stockton are not especially confusing - Harold Macmillan redirects there, and "Harold Macmillan" is still present in the title of the article.) Getting back to the question of people like Harley or Disraeli, I'd agree that they're probably better known by their proper names than by their peerage titles. Nevertheless, it is hardly uncommon to see references to Lord Oxford or Lord Beaconsfield, or whatever, to refer to them for the period after the (fairly late) granting of the peerage title. In which case, I think one should always err on the side of giving more information rather than less. john 09:19, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

BTW, Delirium, check the archives for long discussions of many of these same questions with Hephaestos from a couple of days ago. I think we've probably talked it to death. john 09:23, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I guess I don't see what's wrong with the inconsistency. If the person is primarily known by their peerage title, use it. If the person is primarily known by their normal name, and has a peerage title merely as a historical accident (as is the case with many of the more minor titles in the 20th and 21st centuries), then just omit them entirely, except as a bit of trivia somewhere in the article. --Delirium 09:31, Jan 10, 2004 (UTC)
What's your examples for the latter, other than the Third Earl Russell? Most other people who are not known as peers who became them during the 20th (and 21st) centuries were created peers due to their achievements. In any event, the point is that it's monstrously hard to determine whether someone is known by their peerage title or not. In particular, the "figure out what they're most known by" system works particularly poorly for peers, who are known by different names over the course of their lives. I'd further add that, even if it is ultimately decided that we should not include highest peerage title in all article titles, that title should certainly always be present in the first line, when telling the person's whole name, just as we always list a person's whole name. The fact that Mr. Blair's whole name is "Anthony Charles Lynton Blair" can hardly be said to be of more interest than the fact that Bertrand Russell inherited the Earldom of Russell from his brother and became 3rd Earl Russell. john 09:42, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'd didn't mean necessarily only peers who became them during the 20th and 21st centuries, but also peers of older origin who simply have them as a historical accident and are now essentially private persons who carry on as most other private citizens do (perhaps as businessmen or something). I think there are some of these, but I can't think of a name offhand. In any case, I think it'd be pretty ridiculous for Bertrand Russell to be located anywhere other than its current location, and would make Wikipedia look like a pretty oddly-organized encyclopedia. As for mentioning titles, I don't like the way Bertrand Russell starts either, as it makes it seem like that was a name anyone actually called him. Something like Bertrand Russell, officially known later in life as [...blah...] upon inheriting a life peerage from his brother, ..." would be better, IMO. Ideally this would even not be in the first sentence, but I'm willing to put up with a qualified reference in the first sentence. Essentially, the issue is that Bertrand Russell (and several other people) have titles, but these titles do not in any reasonable way form a part of their name. --Delirium 09:51, Jan 10, 2004 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Peerage_and_Baronetage&oldid=2124123"