Talk:Female genital mutilation

The changing reasons given for clitoridotomy

It seems quite clear that early in the Twentieth Century, clitoridotomy and other genital modifications were promoted as a way of stopping masturbation. Later, when the fear of masturbation was discredited, those promoting clitoridotomy advocated it as a way of enhancing sexual sensitivity. For some reason this simple statement of fact keeps being removed. I cannot see the problem with it. I would appreciate it if those who believe that it is unacceptable would explain their position.Michael Glass 08:20, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's the fallacy of the striking instance. It's a lot easier to find present-day reasons for promotion of the procedure. However, when looking at past reasons, we only know that a few advocates promoted it for stopping masturbation. Are these typical, or striking? We don't know. - Jakew 11:17, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by the fallacy of the striking instance? I could not find such thing mentioned in lists of logical fallacies. If you mean that one of the reasons given for genital modification of women in the early Twentieth Century was to stop masturbation, then why not make that small change? Then we could both look for more evidence and document it. For instance, there is this statement by a Dr Dawson, quoted in Alex Comfort's 'The Anxiety Makers,' Panther Edition, London, 1968, page 113-114:

I do feel an irresistable impulse to cry out against the shameful neglect of the clitoris and its hood, because of the vast amount of sickness and suffering which could be saved the gentler sex, if this important subject received proper attention at the hands of the profession. Circumcision for the girl or woman of any age is as necessary as for the boy or man.

However, though Dr Dawson blamed the clitoris and its hood for all manner of ills, Comfort has a much more striking instance. He says:

In 1894, we find Dr. Eyer, of St John's Hospital, Ohio, dealing with nervousness and msturbation in a little girl by cauterizing the clitoris; this failing, a surgeon was called to bury it with silver wire sutures - which which the child tore and resumed the habit. The entire organ was then excised, with the crura. Six weeks after the operation the patient is reported as saying, 'You know there is nothing there now, so I could do nothing.' (page 111)

Or is this horror story too striking an instance, and therefore it must be excised? Michael Glass 12:17, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The facts are in the article now; however, you seem insist on adding a novel thesis that these are related phenomena. That would fall under the heading of original research, which is forbidden on Wikipedia by policy. Please provide encyclopedic citations for this thesis, and please make sure (if they exist at all) that they are not extreme minority views. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:59, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Jayig, in a time when masturbation was feared it is not surprising that those in favour of genital modification would promote it to discourage masturbation. Nor is it surprising that in a time when sexual expression is accepted that genital modification should be promoted as something to enhance sexual feeling. Why does this plain piece of common sense strike you as being 'original research'? Since when did it need original research to realise that advertising promotes things? Since when did a simple observation become a 'thesis'? Michael Glass 12:17, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is indeed a theory, Michael, and original research, because it presupposes that there is an ulterior motive for promotion that is neither discouraging masturbation nor enhancement of sexual feeling. However, nothing in the article (or, as far as I can tell, the links) suggests that that is the case. If there is a genuine reason to suppose that genital modification is promoted for other reasons, then let's cite the sources. If not, let's assume that people believed what they wrote, and refrain from including novel, bizarre conspiracy theories in an encyclopaedia. - Jakew 12:40, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Jake, there is nothing bizarre or novel in the idea that people publicise their ideas. It is not conspiracy theorising to point out that people publicise their ideas. You have publicised your ideas and so have I. Publicising ideas is what people do all the time. Please stop the nonsense about conspiracy theories. Michael Glass 13:00, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

People publicise their ideas. Different people often have different ideas. Yes, so far, so good. But that's not what you were complaining about above, was it? If there is a point to your comments that doesn't involve a conspiracy, please let me know what it is and accept my apologies in advance. - Jakew 15:41, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Further reading shows that two papers from 1958 and 1959 advocate circumcision to enhance sexual pleasure, one of which you cited in support of your hypothesis! It is only by focusing on this one reason and ignoring any others given that your hypothesis makes the slightest bit of sense.

I have added this information to the article accordingly. - Jakew 14:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have also added some information. I hope that it will be respected and not cut. Showing that ideas in society change does not involve alleging a conspiracy, something that I never did. Michael Glass 21:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Claiming that views on this practice have evolved in relation to specific societal changes is original research, unless you can cite a credible study or paper proposing this theory. This has been explained many times already, it is unclear at this point why you persist. In particular, it is unclear why you would insist on framing the notion that it enhances sexual experience as a modern phenomenon, particularly when it has obviously been proposed for this purpose for 50 years now, as Jakew has pointed out. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:00, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And stating that this (the promotion for sexual benefits) is recent, as implied by the word "now", is a misrepresentation of the facts. - Jakew 10:00, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The above statements are a misrepresentation of what I wrote. The article clearly states that controlling masturbation was ONE of the motives of the circumcisers of women in the early Twentieth Century. It does not imply that this was the only argument used. I cannot understand how anyone can argue that the simple word 'now' implies such a thing, especially as other arguments were clearly spelled out in the two previous paragraphs.

As for the argument about original research I believe that this is being used as a bludgeon to suppress any idea that does not fit into a narrow mindset. When I said that female circumcision was used to suppress masturbation and its decline was related to the decline in the fear of masturbation, the objection was that this was a novel theory and was therefore 'original research'. When I said that the two things happened at the same time the censorship shears came out again, with the insulting charge that it was sneaky.

I have now added more information, including information that shows that the fear of masturbation in the medical profession declined in the latter Twentieth Century. I would appreciate it if Jayig and Jake would stop their ad hominem attacks and their use of Wiki policy as a bludgeon to suppress this point. Michael Glass 14:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If you follow a discussion of historical events with a sentence beginning 'now', it creates a strong implication that this is a recent phenomenon. For example: "In the past, women accused of practicing witchcraft were drowned. Now, this is not a crime." See? As the article previously read, the advocacy to enhance sex was since the '50s. However, those very articles in the '50s advocated it for those reasons, among others.

To quote your original statement: "Thus, when sexual purity was expected of women, female circumcision was promoted as a way of controlling female sexuality; now, when sexual expression is promoted, female circumcision is being promoted as a way of enhancing female sexuality."

The latter part of this theory appears incorrect.

I have the statement about the 'fear' of masturbation, but have reworded it in a less judgemental way that better reflects the article cited. I have also moved it to a separate sentence, so as to avoid implying that this is related. It probably is related, but this is an original conclusion. It is also an original conclusion to state that the occurrence was simultaneous. I can see no problem with simply mentioning the two things.

I like the rewording. As for my first draft (above) I agree that the wording could be improved. However, the basic point remains true that doctors do respond to social forces in their society. Michael Glass 09:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Not just social, Michael. Masturbation was believed to be medically harmful. That we now know this to be asinine does not change the fact. Smoking was once believed to be medically beneficial, and as I recall tobacco was even prescribed by doctors for various ailments. Of course, that is no longer the case. Isn't it reasonable to expect doctors to act according to the evidence of the patient's best interests? - Jakew 11:10, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If there are any ad hominem attacks, please highlight them. - Jakew 14:54, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Jake, you have my apology. It was Jayig who made the comments that I objected to. It wasn't you and I am sorry that I wrote that. please see below. Michael Glass 09:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Accepted. From my POV, you're being unreasonable in counting 'original research' as a personal attack. As for the other two, I'll stay out of it - they seem to be more remarks on observed actions than a personal attack (eg., "Michael Glass is an idiot") per se. - Jakew 11:10, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I second that; if there have been any "ad hominem attacks", please highlight them. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Jayig, first of all I object to your description of one of my edits as 'sneaky'. I don't agree that my additions were 'original research' any more than the boy who saw that the emperor had no clothes was doing original research. Nevertheless, I have tried to change the wording to get over the objections that you and Jake expressed. The result: you accuse me of being sneaky.

Secondly, Jayig, I object strongly to your comments at [1] Perhaps you should consider the Wiki policy of politeness to other users. Perhaps you should consider trying to correspond with me instead of attacking me on someone else's talk page. Please note that I have cited a source, first of all from Wikipedia and then from elsewhere. Please note that I have modified my contribution in response to your cry of 'no original research. Finally, I value the ideal of a neutral point of view, even though one person's idea of neutrality is often another person's idea of bias. Michael Glass 09:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Mind-boggling level of detail in description of hoodectomy pages

Michael, is it really necessary to go into such extraordinary detail about what is contained within this website? To do so seems to interrupt the flow of the article, without adding much information that is germane to the subject. - Jakew 13:42, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Hoodectomy page is being used as an authority. As such, it deserves very close scrutiny to show where it is coming from and where it is going to. For instance, it is significant that it has links to Circlist and Bmezine as well as medical articles. Michael Glass 14:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is significant that it has links to other places where testimonials can be found, or that you personally disapprove of these places? Any thorough guide to testimonials this subject on the web must link to these sites, or it is incomplete.

I'd also take issue with your claim that it is used as an authority. We don't cite it in support of any claim, or endorse it in any way, but just mention that it exists. - Jakew 14:39, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Jake, your wording here is not as clear as usual. Perhaps you were writing in haste. While I take your point about the word 'authority' it is certinly being used as a source of information about a procedure that is controversial if not illegal, in many jurisdictions. Therefore it deserves very close scrutiny. No value judgment is expressed or implied in the passage. It is up to the reader to determine what to think of the links. Information about them will help the reader to make up his or her mind. Michael Glass 15:04, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it was worded poorly, for which I apologise. If it's controversial or illegal, perhaps it's better to discuss the controversy and/or laws. But controversy or even law does not automatically make something bad. See Dumblaws.com for some classic examples. I don't object to scrutiny, though I don't think you've made the case for it very well, but perhaps we could find a compromise, perhaps simply listing links rather than going into an in-depth discussion? I just don't see what good it does to detail linked sites that can easily be seen from the pages themselves. Jakew 20:04, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The changes that have been made to the passage are an improvement. I have a few other changes in mind. I think it serves a useful purpose for the Wiki reader to know the names of the organisations that are in favour of this procedure. Michael Glass 08:57, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Clitoridectomy

This part of the article contains much unsubstantiated information. I believe that it should he linked to credible information or the unsubstantiated information should be removed. Michael Glass 08:27, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]