Talk:Americas

Current wording in the lead is not NPOV

If "Americas" is indeed the most common name (in English, that is), that still doesn't preclude an edit such as mine, which merely gives the most common, and traditional, 'alternative'. What's so wrong with my edit? Shouldn't you be able to articulate it? SamEV (talk) 06:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• It puts way too much emphasis on an extreme minority position. Although "technically correct", it creates a misleading impression that "America" is somehow equal to "The Americas" when referring to the Americas, which it isn't. We're trying to write an encyclopaedia article that educates people as accurately as possible, and the archaic usage of "America" to mean "The Americas" requires a little bit of explanation to not confuse our readers. WilyD 13:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The use "America" is also already included, right in the first paragraph. It doesn't need more emphasis than it has.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I concur with WilyD and Cuchullain: proposed edits are not an advantage over the prior long-standing text. Much of this article already deals with the usage and commonality of America versus (the) Americas, and placing this upfront clarifies nothing. As well, the proposed change is grammatically unsound, which if read aloud doesn't make sense: "... America[,] are the lands ..." Moreover, the Manual of Style recommends linking the first instance of a word, which the proposed version doesn't do. Quizimodo (talk) 17:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

And when did these sources become extremist or archaic, WilyD?Encyclopedia Britannica (Americas, "also called America the two continents, North and South America, of the Western Hemisphere."), Encarta ("America, second largest isolated landmass of the earth, comprising the two continents of the western hemisphere."), as well as Merriam Webster and the American Heritage dictionary, which I cited? SamEV (talk) 14:19, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Err, I said "archaic" not "extremist" - obviously my offhand comments are coloured by my use of the Canadian English dialect, where one could be jerseyed (or worse) for using America when they mean The Americas. Apart from the occasional bizarre requests by Latin Americans here to call the Americas America, you really only see America meaning the Americas in specific historical contexts, like "Columbus discovered America" (although you also often see footnotes that Columbus didn't actually travel to America at all, but the Bahamas et al.). That archaic uses of language persist in dictionaries or encyclopaedias long after they've disappeared from actual use is not particularly surprising. WilyD 14:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

WilyD, these are current works of reference. Verifiability, not "truth", remember? SamEV (talk) 15:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Which indeed is why we present it at all - but NPOV is part of our policy constellation, and contains the UNDUE feature, which forces us to place things in context. WilyD 15:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

WilyD, you're going round in circles. UNDUE refers to extremist sources, which you said those are not. So what is so undue about stating what the very reputable sources on which Wikipedia asks us to rely state themselves? SamEV (talk) 15:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Undue excludes extremist sources, but it also governs how we render other sources - in the end, it's really about how what's implicit in the text is as important as what's explicit in the text. The opening paragraph already notes that the Americas may be referred to as America, something that I support in spite of my distaste for it - it is the correct way to handle it. Impressions created by text are as important as things said explicitly, and it needs to be clear in the opening that "America" means "The United States", even though in some contexts its abused. WilyD 15:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of impressions, the tortured language employed in the lead jumps out as a quite obvious effort to avoid saying, plainly, that America also means the Western Hemisphere. I doubt it fools anyone. Including you. SamEV (talk) 15:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Wily's reading of UNDUE is exactly correct. Each view should be represented in proportion to its prominence. Since "America" is potentially confusing and less common it is dealt with on its own, but do note that it's still discussed quite plainly right there in the first paragraph. It's silly to read some conspiracy into this simply because various other editors happen to disagree with you.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Wily and Cuchulla, really if there is an issue it needs to be dealt with at America where I would not oppose putting the US above this article but this is not the America article, its the Americas and indeed I would question the weight given to the word America int eh first paragraph as clearly nobody calls the US Americas (whereas everyone calls it America in English). Thanks, SqueakBox 18:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Cuchullain, those encyclopedias, of far more reliability than this one still, consider 'America = Western Hemisphere' a prominent enough view to list right in the first sentence. As for conspiracy (!), no conspiracy is necessary when good old-fashioned systemic bias gets the job done. SamEV (talk) 19:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I really can't understand your objection. You act as if the "America" use is not dealt with at all, even though it's right there in the first paragraph. You think including it in the first sentence would eliminate bias, but putting it in the third sentence where the use is explained does not? I cordially disagree, and it would appear general consensus favors the current version, though a number of editors have weighed in who don't always agree, like me and Wily. Please note that there are differences between Wikipedia and those other encyclopedias you've linked to. For instance Britannica articles don't begin with a sentence, as we do, but with a definition of the title, so they don't have to deal with the awkward language of "The Americas or America are...".--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is how it is dealt with, which is currently in a manner that misrepresents the alternative as fringe, when it clearly is not. Having "America" alongside "The Americas" in the opening sentence would be best, I maintain, but it would work in the third sentence if the latter were not such a POV mess that is lost on no one. Still, for the first sentence, the matter of language is a non-issue, as it takes no great powers of creativity to come up with alternatives, for example: "The Americas, or America, refers to the lands of the Western Hemisphere", or "The continents of North and South America are together known as The Americas, or America." And so on. SamEV (talk) 01:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Other commentary aside, for which I generally concur with W and C, the current edition is hardly a 'POV mess', particularly when numerous sources later in the article iterate said usage/ambiguity of the term. And I hardly see how the current edition misrepresents the alternative as fringe: after all, it is in the 1st paragraph. Quizimodo (talk) 20:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"POV mess" applies even more to the "America/Americas" subsection. Who ever refers to the US as "The Americas"? Yet it is brought up insinuated there and it's a complete red herring. Both it and the first paragraph mention "America" in phrasing that conveys a sense of "fringe", as opposed to its being another respected definition, one of very long standing. SamEV (talk) 23:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Not so. In fact, to highlight this, the Oxford Companion to the English Language indicates the following in its entry for 'America' (pp. 33-4):

• Since the 16c, a name of the western hemisphere, often in the plural Americas and more or less synonymous with the New World. Since the 18c, a name of the United States of America. The second sense is now primary in English: "The American president of the American University of Beirut was murdered because he was the symbol of America" ....

and

• However, the term is open to uncertainties: the name The American Heritage Publishing Company (New York) refers to the US alone; in the company's publication The Golden Book of America (1974), a children's book about the US, the first chapter asks "Did Columbus Discover America?", without making it clear that a different sense of the word is needed when discussing Columbus.

The article already equitably deals with this, including the relevant subsection. And, as pointed out above, your edits placed undue weight on this minority notion. Nothing since, through either argumentation or sourcing, has changed that perspective. So, until you can compel otherwise ... Quizimodo (talk) 00:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

And so Oxford does. But I hope you realize that other sources do exist. Britannica uses "America" alongside Americas right off the bat.[1] Merriam Webster's definition of America=US is the third definition, not the principal one.[2] Encarta's article for the landmass is titled "America", not "Americas".[3] Your arguments haven't disproved any of that. SamEV (talk) 01:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

What about Central America and the Antilles?

Central America is a fundamental part of the American Continent, and it NEEDS to be in this page. Central America makes North and South America one landmass. The Antilles deserve to be mentioned too as part of the continent, since they are an archipelago on the Caribbean sea, and can't be part of neither of the subcontinents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.29.249.46 (talk) 15:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

This is already address in the very first sentence: consisting of the continents of North America and South America with their associated islands and regions. The islands in the Caribbean are the not the only islands. Central America is not a separate landmass and is considered a region, hence "associated islands and regions". I can see mentioning the Caribbean islands since they are so numerous instead of just "associated islands." Kman543210 (talk) 16:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Central America is considered as a separate Geopolitically region of the American Continent (or Americas) and needs to be mentioned as such in this wiki. You can even check the wiki of Central America. "Central America (Spanish: Centroamérica or América Central) is a central geographic region of the Americas." 216.29.249.46 (talk) 16:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Central America and the Caribbean are obviously a part of the Americas. They are also a part of North America, which is where they are covered.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Atheism in South America

The article states "only 4 percent of South Americans have no belief in a God", with no quote. According to the Pew Forum (http://pewforum.org/world-affairs/countries/), the two South American countries they list, Chile and Brazil (the most populous country in South America with about 20% of the total population), have 8.3% and 7.4% "non-affiliated" respectively. Having lived in Argentina, I would venture that the numbers are even higher there.

I did not change the article because I don't have hard numbers, but the 4% quoted seems clearly wrong (too low). What should we do?

Thanks, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alefu (talk • contribs) 20:02, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Non-affiliated does not mean atheist. They may be affiliated to traditional beliefs. I agree however to find a reliable source for this.--Hamster X (talk) 13:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

America is a continent, while "the Americas" is just a bad joke.

(There might be some strange formulations in my comment below, for english is not my native language. I beg your pardon.)

Look, it's really not that hard to understand. America is the continent which was discovered by Columbus and named after Amerigo Vespucci. For that reason, "America" is the term which is used to describe the American continent in German, French, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and many other languages - including English. The name United States of America even proves that - it denominates those states of the continent which are a part of the free, republican Union founded in the late 18th century. Back then, the word "America" in the name of the state couldn't mean anything other than the continent, for the nation in its definite form didn't even exist, and expressed the desire to build a Union of Republics within America. Hence, when the modern American calls his country "America", he's just using - be it consciously or unconsciously - a mere figure of speech, a totum pro parte which is not an actual name. Therefore, the United States are the United States, and America is not a country, but a continent which should be refered to with its proper name in Wikipaedia, while one should avoid the term "The Americas", which is only a neologism, which expresses US-American bias and which is simply irritating in an international context.

Besides, the complaint that "America" is too ambiguous and should be avoided because of that is just nonsense. Europe is ambiguous too, for it can describe the European Union, the continent except the British Isles and the continent including them (and also a bunch of other things). But in spite of that, nobody with a sane mind would refer to Europe as "The Europes". Thus Wikipaedia should, while mentioning the term "The Americas" and linking to the United States, call the American continent simply "America".

Greetings, 141.35.186.133 (talk) 13:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

"America" is NOT just one continent, it is 2 separate land masses on 2 different tectonic plates. This is another reason that "The Americas" is more widely used; not just to differentiate it between America as the USA. I do realize that some countries teach America as one continent, but it is more 2 continents than Europe and Asia are. I personally never use the term "America" when referring to the United States; however, when referring to both the American continents, "The Americas" denotes that you're speaking of both continents.Kman543210 (talk) 13:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Some people, based in history, say America is one continent. Some others say it is two continents based on land masses (well, nobody call himself a Eurasian). In both cases, America goes from Kaffeklubben Island in the North to the islands of Southern Thule in the South. This cannot be defined as the “West Hemisphere”, because “West hemisphere” also includes part of Europe and Africa, and is based in a “euro-centric” conception. Some others say it is a country, a.k.a U.S.A., and then solve the semantic problem creating “the Americas” continent. This is may be right for English spoken citizens that represent 1/3 of “the Americas” population, but it is not an official name as "America". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.186.251.195 (talk) 04:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC) UZ:ozbek —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.147.128.2 (talk) 11:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with the first comment. America is the name of the continent. Period. You can further subdivide it into two, or even more subcontinents (just as Europe). The important thing here is that The whole big mass of land in this part of the world should be called "America", despite the fact that a lot of people call it, in a wrong way, The Americas. You just can't go against history. That would be like saying: "Well, the name Russia makes me get confused for some reason. Why don't I just start calling it something else?" Well, no, because its name doesn't depend on what you think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.146.129.27 (talk) 02:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The name of the continents are North and South America in almost all English-speaking countries, period/full stop. By the way, there are other both European and Asian countries that use the 7 continent convention. I don't understand why people can't understand that there are other ideas out there in naming and describing continents. North and South America are on 2 completely different tectonic plates and are barely connected by a small strip. Africa connects with the other landmass with more of a connector, but most people consider it a separate continent. There is nothing wrong with the convention of naming it as one landmass just as there is nothing wrong with naming it 2 different landmasses. Not everyone agrees whether to consider Europe and Asia 2 different continents even though they are 1 landmass. Things change as we learn more about the Earth, tectonic plates, science, etc., so there is no reason to say just because they used to call it just America that we shouldn't now consider it 2 continent and call them the Americas. Kman543210 (talk) 02:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Man, that "small strip" it's called Central America and it makes a huge difference regarding the geography of the American Continent. First of all and it makes the two landmasses of North and South America become subcontinents and one landmass. Even though Central America is considered in some circles as part of North America, geographically it is considered that the Isthmus of Tehuantepec divides North America from the southern part of the continent on its 200 km (125 miles) of extension, and that the Isthmus of Panama divides South America from the northern part of the continent by the Gulf of Urabá. What's left in the middle is Central America.

Furthermore, you are wrong saying that "Africa connects with the other landmass with more of a connector" since the only connection con the Middle East is through the Suez Canal which is only 163 km (101 miles) long, only 100 miles less than the connection on the Isthmus of Tehuantepec.

Central America doesn't belong to North America politically nor geographically, it's a region by its own, it's the bridge between the two big landmasses of the Great American Continent! Without Central America, there would be 2 clearly separate and independent continents.

Like a lot of years ago!

Quoting from the Isthmus of Panama wiki: "Before the present-day isthmus was created, water covered the area where Panama is today. A significant body of water (referred to as the Central American Seaway) separated the continents of North and South America, allowing the waters of the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans to mix freely". 216.29.249.46 (talk) 21:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)