Talk:Bill O'Reilly (political commentator)/Archive 6

Previous discussion on this page has been archived at Talk:Bill O'Reilly (commentator) (archive).

The National Academy of Arts and Sciences

"After the September 11, 2001 attacks, O'Reilly was honored by The National Academy of Arts and Sciences for his coverage and analysis of the events." What exactly is the National Academy of Arts and Sciences? Did the author mean the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences? I sure hope it wasn't the National Academy of Sciences. ;-)

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Some of the information here seems wrong.

uh, like what? if you're going to put a disputed tag on a page, explain exactly why. putting a disputed tag and not actually explaining why gets noone anywhere. i'll remove it until you detail your objections. --Jamieli 16:14, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Proof O'Reilly is a bullshitter is PoV?

It's like Jon Stewart once said, are those reporting the news anti-Bush or is the news itself anti-Bush? In this case, the news is against Bill O'Reilly. I put on there that O'Reilly said a town in New York state was named after an "Indian" tribe when in fact no such Native American tribe exists. It isn't PoV to say he wasn't telling the truth, but it isn't apparent that he was really lying but just that he was trying to act like he knew something when he didn't. That's bullshitting, I go to college, I see it all the time. And it isn't PoV to point out objective facts, objective facts are in the NPoV tutorial under "What Not To Avoid." So if anyone wants to revert the facts away, they should here state why the facts are not worth presenting. Maprovonsha172 03:53, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

"Canandaigua" was the name of a Seneca village and was also the name of a treaty between the Iroquois tribe and the confederacy. So there is a fairly reasonable chance that this was an honest mistake. At the very least, no, it is not "apparent" what he was thinking when he made the statement. Your conjecture is not "proof" nor is it "objective facts" so to call him a "bullshitter" is baseless and POV. And without that bit, your remaining contribution is pretty worthless. There are many more well-publicized and widely scrutinized instances of O'Reilly's dishonesty as well as sources that compile them, both of which are already referenced in the article. Your edit doesn't add anything of value. To put it plainly we don't need a play-by-play of every show the guy puts out. The article references Media Matters; should we include a few sentences about each of the 200-plus items they've compiled on O'Reilly? Davetrainer 16:43, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I wonder if you watched yesterday's show. I did. He said "the Indian tribe" quite confidantly and abruptly right after correcting his pronounciation. It's not an honest mistake, its bullshitting. He needed to bullshit that "the Indian tribe" stuff after correcting himself so as to save face. Some people think he is a liar, some people think he is a saint, here is an instance of him bullshitting. I think that is very important, alongside more important instances like when he said he was "in combat" and all sorts of things like that. We can reword if you like but the information is valid.

P.S.: You would do well to register as a member David.

I agree with Davetrainer. Pointing out hand-selected quotes as an example of "bullshit" is POV, as well as original research. Rhobite 19:07, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

That he said something confidently and abruptly does not rule out the possibility that he made an honest mistake, and it certainly is not a sufficient basis for calling him a "bullshitter". Again, it isn't apparent to anyone what he was thinking when he made the statement, so for you to infer that he was "bullshitting" "to save face" is POV. And yes, it is also original research. I'm pretty certain that no amount of rewording can reconcile any of these problems. Davetrainer 21:49, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose it is original research, so I will retract it for that reason. But it is a perfect example of O'Reilly bullshitting, acting as though he were familiar with a Native American tribe that doesn't and never has existed. Anyone who caught that last night could back me up on that. Maprovonsha172 21:59, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

No hard feelings, frankly I do consider O'Reilly a liar and a bullshitter, and I don't doubt he was bullshitting in this case. So it's a POV that we share, nonetheless it is a POV. Davetrainer 22:48, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Requested move

The cricketeer is nowhere near as notable as the controversial talk show host, and a disambiguation page is good enough. Google for 'Bill O'Reilly FOX News' receives 625,000 results; 'Bill O'Reilly Cricket' receives 41,200 results. I would be bold and move myself, but I'm afraid that doing so might not be possible due to page histories, etc. I am requesting this page be moved to Bill O'Reilly, and have Bill O'Reilly as it currently stands be moved to Bill O'Reilly (disambiguation).

Vote here with Support or Oppose.

Support

Support. ral315 18:28, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Withdrawing request, as apparently the cricketeer is much more well-known than the commentator elsewhere. ral315 23:18, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

I still support this. If he were much more well-known, he'd have more than 10 articles linking to him. Wikipedia's Aussie editors are plentiful (and I lived there this entire last year), so there's no worry of geographical bias, in my mind. Shem^(talk) 23:43, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Support. Shem^(talk) 21:26, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Support. I am going to take every opportunity I can to agree with Shem. The only Wiki issue is notability and it is not even close. I am not always a fan of Google searches, but in this case, it tells the story. --Noitall 03:06, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

I'm curious as to why, if you're not a fan of Google searches, that in this case you are. An American media personality is obviously going to have more Google hits than a dead Australian cricketer - but that doesn't neccessarily translate into notability. The cricketer was one of the greatest players that ever lived. The commentator will be all but forgotten a couple of years after he retires. -- Ian ≡ talk 06:17, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

You seem to be ignorant of Bill O'Reilly's impact on politics, journalism, and media, I think. He is the most-watched political pundit of any on Earth currently. Shem^(talk) 11:50, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Can you back up your claim: on earth? User:Nichalp/sg 13:43, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Support. User:Bedford^(talk) 04:29, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Oppose

• Oppose. I've never (well hardly) heard of Bill O'Reilly the commentator. I sure that there'd be millions of people who know who the cricketer is though. A case of WP:CSB. -- Ian ≡ talk 01:59, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
  • And I'd argue that millions more know who O'Reilly is, in Australia and the UK, too. Yours looks a case of cricket fandom, not countering systemic bias. "For the Australian cricketer, see: Bill O'Reilly (cricketer)" would still be on display prominently at the top of the page. Shem(talk) 02:05, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Neither is self-evidently more notable than the other. --Ngb 19:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Definitely not clear that one is more notable than the other - googlecounting is, as ever, pretty stupid. --Khendon 19:10, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per Khendon - O'Reilly played fifty years ago, naturally his google count is going to be deflated. Don Bradman picked him in his all-time World XI [1] before he died, apparently. Sam Vimes 19:13, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Bill O'Reilly was one of the best and most famous cricketers of his era - as evidenced by him being in the Australian Hall of Fame and in Bradman's all-time World XI. I've never heard of the American commentator, jguk 19:19, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Both are notable to different audiences. A disambiguation page is the right solution. Stephen Turner 20:32, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
• Very strong oppose: – I live in India. I don't get the Fox News Channel, and so I haven't heard of the commentator. Are you going to tell me just because he is pretty famous in the US, and his name is occasionally heard of in Australia and the UK, he gets the benefit of the title? This is nothing but systemic bias! How can it be gauged that he is anywhere less notable by those who aren't familiar with cricket history? He was one of the most famous cricketers of the Bodyline era. User:Nichalp/sg 05:59, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
  • Systemic bias my ass; this is a vote-bombing by Wikiproject cricket, and fandom trying to play itself off as fighting systemic bias. Shem^(talk) 08:48, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
    • I will take the opportunity to remind you of Wikipedia:Assume good faith. Baseless allegations of 'vote-bombing' are not in keeping with this. --Ngb 08:56, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
      • You should take the opportunity to read my user page, and be reminded that I don't follow that guideline on Wikipedia. My observation is definitely not baseless; a very sensible move was proposed, and a "hey, come vote here cricket fans" notice was posted at Wikiproject Cricket. Were such a notice posted off-site, it'd be vote-bombing without question. Y'all're a bunch of cricket fans, first and foremost, using the fact that you're not Americans as leverage in a bogus allegation of systemic bias. Shem^(talk) 11:46, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
        • WP:Cricket is not vote-bombing - and there are plenty of instances of cricketers only being linked to via a disambiguation notice at the top of an article on someone completely different that I wouldn't think of changing, regardless of how many other cricket fans tried to persuade me otherwise. In this instance, however, Bill O'Reilly is one of the all-time greats and is one of the better-known cricketers of his era. I'm not convinced the American O'Reilly will be remembered 70-80 years past the peak of his career. I'm glad we've had this proposed move though - it's highlighted how inadequate the Bill O'Reilly (cricketer) page is, and I see it has improved a lot since it gained this attention, jguk 11:53, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

• • • Why would I be a fan of old Bill? I think you're a very big fan of younger Bill :) User:Nichalp/sg 09:10, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

I disagree with your assertion that the commentator is any more notable than the cricketer. This is almost certainly true within the boundaries of the United States, but I would contest that the opposite is true in many other English-speaking territories (the UK, Australia, India, etc.). I would expect many people outside of the US never to have heard of Bill O'Reilly (commentator), whereas Bill O'Reilly (cricketer) is widely notable in those countries as one of the best leg spinners ever. Don't forget that this is an international encyclopaedia, not just an American one. --Ngb 19:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

You won't play the "American bias" card with me, sorry. I've lived abroad for well over three years now, most of it in Australia, am married to a Commonwealth girl, and Bill O'Reilly here is very noteworthy as one of Rupert Murdoch's top men. This is not a matter of systemic bias, and I'm tired of seeing Wikiproject Cricket pretend that it is. Shem^(talk) 08:52, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I don't see where I mentioned 'American bias' here. I noted that while the move proponent's assertion would be true within the US (where Bill O'Reilly (cricketer) is certainly less notable, I have no reason to believe it is true internationally -- and this is an international encyclopaedia. --Ngb 08:59, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

You're implying it, heavily. Or was "don't forget this is an international encyclopedia, not just an American one" just you shooting the wind? Shem^(talk)

So you agree that this is an international encyclopedia? That means a dab page would be the most neutral thing here. Thank you very much. User:Nichalp/sg 13:41, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. I have never heard of the commentator, but know of the cricketer. --Q 19:29, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Bill O'Reilly (cricketer) only has 10 other articles linking to it, most of them athlete lists. His article also claims that he was known as Tiger O'Reilly -- was he known by this to the point where his article could actually be titled Tiger O'Reilly? We can also add For the Australian cricketer, see: Bill O'Reilly (cricketer) to the top of this article, once it's moved. Shem^(talk) 21:28, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

No, he was and is mostly known as Bill O'Reilly, jguk 07:24, 26 August 2005 (UTC)