Talk:Western Sahara/Archive 5
Error
There is an error: The zone is very wealthy in phosphorus, gas and maybe petrolium. Its sea is also very wealthy.
Should we be describing the region as a country? --Dante Alighieri | Talk 02:08, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
- Well, given that Morocco is internationally recognized in its "normal" borders, not including WS, and that the crisis is yet unresolved, yes. --Joy [shallot] 11:26, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Well, WS isn't "internationally recognized" as a country, so if your standard is international recognition, than we shouldn't call it one. My point is NOT that it is part of Morocco, and therefore not a country. My point is that it isn't a country in its own right, regardless of who has sovreignty at the moment. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 18:13, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
- The UN recognizes that it's not just a Moroccan territory, so it's somewhere inbetween a country and a dependency... either way, the template applied to subnational entities don't differ much from the one applied to countries, so I don't see much of a problem even if it one day becomes a province of Morocco. --Joy [shallot] 19:11, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- It's not so much the template that worried me, it's the usage of the word country throughout the article body. I'm gonna change appropriate instances to region. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 01:15, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)
- I'd pick "territory", "region" sounds somewhat more slanted towards the Moroccan POV to me. --Joy [shallot] 11:48, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
For your information, WS is recognized by a minority of 49 countries out of 151. Morocco has made huge investmùents to develop this region which in my opinion is part of itsd teritory. Unfortunately, the article lacks somme historical background. The Polisario front had been largely manipulated and can't claim representativity of sahrawi people who in majority is faithful to Morocco
===>Inaccuracies in the last post: The SADR has been recognized by 76 states, most recently South Africa in 2004. Including the SADR and Taiwan, there are 194 countries. I honestly have no idea what your last two sentences are supposed to mean. Justin (koavf) 16:48, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
western sahara is neither a country nor a state
People,
You are presenting ws as if it was an independent country or a state. Fact is that this is NOT the case. So, either you do wikipedia (here) or you do politics (somwhere else) but not both in the same time.
If you want to inform about ws you have to present the informaton in an objective way and include not only information that is pro polsiario and/or pro algeria.
Morocco claims this region is part of its territory and this opinion MUST be presented and respected as long as the conflict persists.
Regards
Canlcellations of recognition must be mentioned
Hi,
I am not very exprienced with wikipedia. How can the following centence be completed?
"[...] whereas the SADR is recognized by several dozen."
This should be copmpleted by the follwing one:
"However many states froze or cancelled their recognition." (source is in the overview table in the article itself)
Who can help? Thanks.
--> Link to edit found. Thanks
The article states that dozens (70-80) of the states recognised the "sadr" but does not mention that many of them (23 + case of yemen unclear) have cancelled their recognition. This fact is relevant to mention as it concerns the decision of not only one or two states but a share of ca 30% (!!) of those who spoke out their recognition. I think this must be mentioned in the article (and must be taken into consideration as well when replying to other users (s. thread above)).
Regards
Wikima 12:04, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
- Please provide sources as to when and under what circumstances recognition was withdrawn by 23 countries, and which ones. Thanks. El_C
Polisario is algerian backed
All,
This is a fact. polisario is algerian backed. None can deny this. When international media talk about the sahara issue they rarely miss to mention the involvement of algeria in the conflict. The fact that this country denies its involvement is part of its strategy against Morocco and no argument as such.
Read an example of the BBC here qhich says: "The Algerian-backed Polisario said the latest proposals..." (Source: BBC News World Edition http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2677581.stm).
Leaving polisario as the only actor against Morocco in the conflict shows an unbalanced picture of the situation and reflects a political position rather than the transmission of information onf acts as should be a project liek wikipedia .
Therefore I would like to make that change and insert the "Algerian-backed Polisario ..." in the follwing paragraph (History):
"A guerrilla war carried by the Algerian-backed Polisario Front contesting Rabat's sovereignty ended in a 19 ..."
How is the change to be done?
===>No one doubts Algerian support Since the 1970's, Polisario has been supported by Cuba, Libya, and other states, most consistently by Algeria. This is not to imply that it is an Algerian movement, though, as it was founded by the indigenous inhabitants (the Sahrawis), and the membership is composed entirely of them. Furthermore, when Morocco consistently refused to have talks with the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, as they did not recognize them as a state, Algerian diplomats represented their interests.
I don't think anyone is trying to make the conflict out to be simply Morocco versus Polisario (although they are the most prominent parties). Certainly Algeria, Mauritania, France, Spain, the United States, the African Union, and the United Nations are all interested parties to the conflict.
I would object to inserting the phrase "Algerian-backed Polisario Front", as the Polisario Front was seeking independence prior to Morocco's invasion, and the phrasing is so vague that it implies that the Western Sahara conflict is simply a proxy war between Morocco (and Mauritania) and Algeria, which is absolutely not true. To some extent, there are Algerian interests in a proxy war, but that is not the source of the conflict. Justin (koavf) 20:13, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
===> At the level of language I think that saying "algerian backed" means "algerian backed" and not that the movement is algerian.
You are trying to put algeria just as on the same level as any other country that supports the polisario. This is not true.
Algeria has from the beginning hosted, financed, supported and did EVERY THING for the polisario. algeria invests a large amount of its monney, puts the own country and people under risk of a potential with Morocco, invests a huge part of its diplomacy in a war against Mrocco in all intrnational instances.
Do you know that algeria banished ca 50.000 moroccans from its country to Morocco after having dispossed them from all their goods (houses, businesses etc) just because of this sahara issue? Is this supporting or something else??
In fact polsiario is NOTHING without algeria. When the last moroccan prisonors of war were released lately (some of them spent since more than 20 years in the camps of the polisario) their liberation went via algier! The USA almost explicitly thanked the algerian governement for "helping" getting them free. Only the execution of their liberation was done in Tindouf where they were hold under circonstumces that go against every international law.
Lately and in the same context the USA by its representative Mr Lugar almost ignored the polisario and asked Morocco and algeria to talk directly and make further efforts in order to find an issue. Immediately after this algeria sent one of its most important men (Mr Belkheir) as embassador to Rabat. etc. Ths USA did nto ask Mauritania, Spain, the Afircan Union, France or Sweden to find an issue with Morocco.
And you are telling algeria's support is the same as any other country's?
I think it is important to mention the algeria backing of the polsario. This is the minimum to do as the examples of the BBC News shows.
I also think it is necessary to provide more information on the role of algeria in the conflict around the sahara.
If we don't do so the topic would look too unbalanced and politically too tendencious.
Wikima 20:49, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
===>Confusion and misdirection I'm a little confused by your phrase "at the level of language" and what you are trying to express here. All I'm saying is, the movement was supported by several states, the most important being Algeria, without question. I don't think anyone would dispute that.
In regards to the POW's, I think your claims are a little curious - of course the POW's went through Algiers, as they were in refugee camps on Algerian soil. While Western Sahara did have some of the longest-held POW's in the world, Morocco also has some from the conflict that they won't admit to having, they've killed and arbitrarily jailed innocent civilians, and refuse to name them, and have no plans on releasing their prisoners of conscience ever. In point of fact, Morocco has denied entry of Moroccan POW's in the past, and releasing them prior to the supervision of the United States and Red Cross may have meant that those men would have become refugees themselves.
My Senator, Dick Lugar, appealed to Morocco and Algeria to have direct discussion precisely because the stated position of the United States on the Western Sahara issue is neutrality: we neither recognize the annexation (like all states) nor the legitimacy of the Saharawi Arab Democratic Republic.
I certainly would not say that the support of Algeria is the same as any other nations, and in point of fact, several of the nations listed have been on the side of Morocco (such as France, who donated planes to drop napalm on civilians or Spain, who sold out Spanish Sahara for a cut of the phosphate profits in the first place). By far the greatest international support has come from Algeria, but the phrase "Algerian-backed (or -supported) Polisario Front" is so superficial, and possibly glib, that it requires much more explanation to do the issue justice. The Polisario existed before Algerian support, during the brief period of Algerian hostility, and during times of Algerian complacency; it will continue to exist without Algeria entirely. Justin (koavf) 23:19, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
>> Involvement of Algeria:
Example 1: This is how the U.S. Committee for Refugees and Immigrants describes the involvement of Algeria in the conflict,
"The Government allowed the rebel group, Polisario, to confine nearly a hundred thousand refugees from the disputed Western Sahara to four camps in desolate areas outside Tindouf military zone near the Moroccan border 'for political and military, rather than humanitarian, reasons,' according to one observer. According to Amnesty International, 'This group of refugees does not enjoy the right to freedom of movement in Algeria. … Those refugees who manage to leave the refugee camps without being authorized to do so are often arrested by the Algerian military and returned to the Polisario authorities, with whom they cooperate closely on matters of security.' Polisario checkpoints surrounded the camps, the Algerian military guarded entry into Tindouf, and police operated checkpoints throughout the country." (Source: http://www.refugees.org/countryreports.aspx?id=1300)
Example 2: This is how James Baker describes the involvement of algeria in a TV interview:
"MISHAL HUSAIN: Do you think armed hostilities could resume then?
JAMES A. BAKER III: I don't know. I have no idea. I think that's an issue probably that is more on the plate of Algeria than anybody else because it isn't going to resume unless Algeria permits it to happen. As long as Algeria says to the POLISARIO you're not going to fight anymore then they're not going to fight anymore." (Source: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/sahara/transcript2.html)
These are just 2 examples and I am quite sure that investigative work would provide more information like this.
I don't think you can hide these facts. The expression "algerian-backed polisario" is the less that you must say in this context.
Your comment on the POWs looks polemic to me. We are investigating the role of Algeria and I am saying that every thing shows that the release of the Moroccan POWs went via algeria and that only the execution of the release was done in tindouf. This goes along with what James Baker says above and shows pretty much the strong involvement of algeria in the sahara conflict.
The USA invite Morocco and algeria to talk because they believe that algeria is in fact an involved part in the conflict even if they can't say it explicitly.
Algeria is a extremely and highly active actor in all international instances in fighting (diplomatically) against Morocco. Polisario is simply relying on what algeria does. algeria is the leading actor not polisario.
Since the beginning of the conflict the algerian government put its country in the situation of a potential war with Morocco because of this conflict. This is not the behaviour of a part that is only "interested".
To burrow the role of algeria in the sahara conflict or to compar it with the role of any other country is definitely misleading and goes against the facts. It does not provide accurate information on the conflict and it is close rather to a political position. I don not think this goes along wiht the spirit and the objectives of of wikipedia.
Cheers.
Wikima 10:25, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
===>Algeria is uniquely involved Algeria's deep involvement in the conflict is due in no small part to Moroccan policies regarding the dispute. Since King Hassan II refused to have direct talks with the Polisario, as he did not recognize the SADR as a state, it was up to Algeria to represent their interests. Also, since the only other states that border Western Sahara were at war with it, Algeria took in refugees from the conflict (again, instigated by Rabat). Since Algeria has allowed an extra 200,000 people to live inside its borders, it only stands to reason that:
- the government of Algiers would represent those people diplomatically,
- the military would patrol the borders of the camp, to keep refugees from spilling into the rest of the country (causing all manner of internal problems for Algerians), and
- the Algerian people certainly have no desire for conflict to resume, as they will certainly be drawn into a second war with Morocco (the first, again, having been instigated by Rabat).
The Moroccan POW's had to be released through Algeria, as it is the state harboring them. If the refugee camps were actually located in Western Sahara (say, east of the berm), then the involvement of Algeria would not be necessary.
You comment about the United States is simply incorrect. The US invites Algeria to represent Sahrawi interest for two reasons:
- the US recognizes the government in Algiers, and not the SADR
- Morocco has consistently refused high-level direct contact with the Polisario
Since it is the stated position of the US to remain neutral in the conflict, it is only appropriate to engage Algeria as a representative of the Sahrawi interest. Otherwise, no one would represent them. Again, Polisario existed before Algerian involvement, and in the period when Algeria was actually hostile to the Sahrawi interest, Polisario fighters received more training and material support from Libya and Cuba than from Algeria. To say Algeria is the leading actor is also not true, as the initial conflict was between Polisario and Spain. Once Spain exited the picture and Morocco and Mauritania attacked, the focus of fighting shifted to those two external threats. Algeria did nothing at all to support Polisario for the first six years of its existence.
I don't want to downplay Algeria's role in the conflict: it has without a doubt been the largest supporter of the SADR symbolically and materially, but it is also accurate to say that it is an involved party, just as much as France is, although to a much greater extent. Justin (koavf)
>>>> The less you can say is that algeria is an involved part:
First of all, from your reaction I take the involvement of algeria in the conflict as given and evident. On the background of what you say the expression "algerian backed" even appears as rather weak. I think the less we must do is to add "algerian backed" in the article while talking about polisario.
In your reaction you try to justify algeria's involvement by making Morocco responsible for it. This is clearly your personal opinion and political position. I feel this is definitively non encyclopedic.
Above I am not quoting any moroccan instance or defending any moroccan position but quoting James Baker and the U.S. Committee for Refugees.
The first one clearly confirms algeria’s total and overall control, which at the military level is extremly meaningful. When a country has total control of the military decisions of a "political movement" this means two things:
- This country must have political and overall control as well.
- There is enough reasons to start exploring the case of a proxy war.
The Committee for Refugees clearely confirms that algeria uses the refugees 'for political and military, rather than humanitarian, reasons’. This tends to suggest a proxy war as well.
An other fact is that neither the polisario nor algeria created the "sadr" when the sahara was under spanish control. There is not much information on polisario during that time so we can claim it was insignificant and/or almost inexistent, and the indepedence of the sahara was apparently not that important for algeria when it was under spanish colonialism. This you confirm in your reaction when you say algeria did not support polisario in the beginning. Algeria in fact "supported" polisario and called the "sadr" only when Morocco entered the sahara. And only after this event polisario became strange to say strong as well. This also tends to show that algeria fights Morocco, because although the reason is essentially the same it did not fight against Spain. This is not my opinion, but a fact none could deny.
Above I provide the fact that when Morocco entered the sahara algeria immediatly disseized about 50.0000 of moroccans before banishing them from the country. Most of them were born in algeria or were living there since their shildhood and never saw Morocco. Sir, no country would do that just because it is supporting a political movement.
All this shows how algeria is a leading and active part in the conflict from its beginning. Any independant objective investigative effort would confirm this.
In your message you are talking about 200.000 people while the U.S. Committee for Refugees mentions nearly a hundert thousend. Please stuck to the facts and avoid giving numbers uncarefully. These numbers are extremly sensitive for the sahara issue and are in the centre of the dispute. In this context it is always important to mention the sahrawis who live in the part which is governed by Morocco and which includes all urban centres and big cities.
I do not discuss the other aspects in your reaction because they appear to me to be rather a political position and I feel this is the wrong place for this.
Cheers
Wikima 10:53, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
WS is not a country
Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia where all points of view must be exposed. I think that the last version of the article is not neutral because it consider WS as a country. I think that it is a conflictual territory or region. If you think that WS is a country so why not Kurdistan, Northern Ireland, Corsica, Basque territory and else. I think that you must remove the flag of RASD and all informations about president, prime minister ..etc. Thanks
===>Other entities have this information First off, the article clearly explains the dispute and the fact that the soveriegnty over the territory is not finalized in the international arena. Secondly, other non-state entities (provinces, dependencies, disputed territories, historical states, etc.) have flags, and information about the governments on them. In point of fact, Kurdistan is an excellent example. Why exactly should we take out this information?
You are blatently contradicting yourself by saying that "all points of view must be exposed", and then saying the article is not neutral. You want to take out one point of view (the SADR is already sovereign, or possibly that it should be sovereign), and replace it with one-sided information. Justin (koavf) 01:39, September 13, 2005 (UTC)
- "Westerne Sahara" is a geographic territory not a country, the title of the page is "Western Sahara" not "SADR", now this territory is governed by Morocco and not by "SADR", there is a conflict between two sides Morocco and Polisario, if you think that this flag represent the region so you are not neutral, in this case why not put the flag of Morocco?, I repeat this a page about a territory (Western Sahara) and not a proposed country (SADR), Thanks
===>Untrue First off, Morocco does not administer the entire territory. Secondly, if this article claimed that Gaza and the West Bank were part of Israel simply becuase they administer the territory, the same peoeple who are making pro-Moroccan edits would cry foul. Since this is an unresolved dispute, and this conflict is clearly explained at length in the article, there is no justification for deleting the infobox. There are other geo-political entities that have these boxes than states, and I'm willing to assume that Wikipedia readers are smart enough to digest the article themsevles. The flag of Morocco is not here because it is the flag of Morocco. The flag that is on this page is internationally recognized as the flag of Western Sahara. Justin (koavf)
Justin again, Morocco administrates and controls most of the territory including all cities and important urban centres. And the country invests important part of its budget and its manpower in developing them with remarkable results (!). The sahara in as you confirm yourself disputed and under the circumstances of tension it is normal for a non industrial country wihtout significant resources such as Morocco to concentrate the control on the territory even if far peripheral areas in the desert "escape". Morocco is not the only country in this situation and in comparison to many of the 3rd world countries with similar problems it does pretty well!
This being said I think that the presentation is an extremly important part of an article. How you present things play a central role, and this applies of course more when articles deal with symbols and representations such as flags etc. Replying that wikipedia readers are "smart" is non valid. Here you are presenting the territory as if it was a country. You may personnaly wish this but it is NOT a country and this is a fact. The information in an encyclopedia must be presented as objective and as exact as possible no matter whether the readers are smart or spend ten hours in contemplating articles or not. I am not the only one who says the information and especially its presentation is not balanced. I think we must find a solution here.
Cheers.
Wikima 08:14, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
- Koavf, don't you use all the time the word movement and organization? Calling it a country is totally innacurate and totally POV. If you can prove to us that it is a country than the article would use that term. Otherwise, we'll be forced to change that. cheers -- Wiki me up™
Koavf, I understand that you are very interrested in indepencence movements. Sure we all sypathyse with separatist movements. But don't forget to be objectif and neutral. There is a conflict between two sides : 1)Morocco who thinks that WS is a part of its territory and 2)Polisario who thinks that this territory must be independant and proclamed a republic in this territory. If you think that "western sahara" is for "SADR" what "france" is for "republic of France" for example, in this case you are defintively no neutral and you are imposing your POV to readers of WP. I think that the aim of WP is to expose facts not POVs. WS is a territory who is subject to a conflict between two sides not a country. the page called "Western Sahara" seems like a page devoted to SADR and expose informations about this entity (flag, president, etc). these informations are refused by the first side of the conflict (Morocco); exposing them in this page is not neutral. I find my self forced to erease this information for the neutrality of this article. thank you for understanding and excuse my English language;-) Daryou