Talk:Christianity and Judaism
From the article:
Historically, Christianity has taught that all people are born contaminated with Original sin, and that nothing a person does in their life can ever get rid of this taint; this doctrine began with Paul in the New Testament, and was especially promoted by Augustine in the fourth century. Failure to get rid of this taint leads God to eternally damn these people to Hell. Only by worshipping Jesus as a saviour and son of God can a person be saved from this fate.
- Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christianity never held this doctrine, and began repudiating it once they learned of it. They teach that we inherit a corrupted or damaged human nature in which the tendency to do bad is greater, but that each person is only guilty of their own sins. By participating in the life of the church, our human nature is healed and it becomes easier to do good; at the same time, we become more acutely aware of more of our shortcomings. I added this bit in another article once, I think. --Wesley
- Please provide a few official sources for this statement about Eastern Orthodoxy.
First, tell me where in the New Testament you find this doctrine, and more importantly your hermeneutical method, which Christians of any stripe follow this interpretation, and which Eastern Orthodox Christians affirm or have made that interpretation.
- Its not my method, its their method. I don't believe that the New Testament is divinely inpired, so I don't follow rules or beliefs derived from it. But I don't understand your perspective. All of Christianity has historically believed what I mentioned. I understand that some liberal Protestant sects have changed their beliefs in the last two centuries, many in the last 50 years. Perhaps Orthodox Chrisitianity has as well. But you seem to be asking me to "prove" that most Christians have historically believed (and still believe) that Christ is the only way to God. I don't know how to respond to this. Just read any encyclopaedia, or go to any Church. Where did you learn the contrary? Here in the USA we have hundreds of distinct Protestant Christian groups, and the vast majority teach this. Even the Catholic Church is still divided on this issue, with one person claiming that salvation is available outside Christ, while another equally ranking official denies this. Much information is available on this topic from the religioustolerance.org website RK
- First of all, the Catholic Church is not "divided" on this issue, as you say--Vatican II clearly pronounced that non-Christians can attain salvation, and the current Pope has also stated this. Secondly, Quakers have never believed that only Christians attain salvation (that is to say, when Quakers even worry about the question of salvation, which they generally don't), and Quakerism is 350 years old. It is true that many Protestant churches still preach an intolerant vision of salvation, and it is also true that historically the Christian church was highly intolerant of other faiths (Catholicism used ot preach that "there is no salvation outside the church", but reversed itself on this subject at Vatican II), but the religion is also more diverse than you are making it out to be.
Scripture can and has been used poorly to say almost anything; be careful to attribute interpretations of it specifically. This is also NPOV procedure; otherwise we have Wikipedia setting down a standard interpretation. I made several statements together there. A random web site confirmed that Augustine wasn't translated into Greek until the 14th century, and suggested he wasn't widely read in the East until the 17th or 18th century, when Western style education made its way to Russia. That's the easiest fact to confirm. I'll have to look harder for some official statements; ( ... goes away grumbling about being asked to prove a negative ... ;-) ) --Wesley
Here's a somewhat extended quote from St. Iranaeus, a second century bishop and early church Father, taken from Book IV of Irenaeus Against Heresies:
- Chapter XXII.-Christ Did Not Come for the Sake of the Men of One Age Only, But for All Who, Living Righteously and Piously, Had Believed Upon Him; And for Those, Too, Who Shall Believe.
- 1 Now in the last days, when the fulness of the time of liberty had arrived, the Word Himself did by Himself "wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion,"327 when He washed the disciples' feet with His own hands.328 For this is the end of the human race inheriting God; that as in the beginning, by means of our first [parents], we were all brought into bondage, by being made subject to death; so at last, by means of the New Man, all who from the beginning [were His] disciples, having been cleansed and washed from things pertaining to death, should come to the life of God. For He who washed the feet of the disciples sanctified the entire body, and rendered it clean. For this reason, too, He administered food to them in a recumbent posture, indicating that those who were lying in the earth were they to whom He came to impart life. As Jeremiah declares, "The holy Lord remembered His dead Israel, who slept in the land of sepulture; and He descended to them to make known to them His salvation, that they might be saved."329 For this reason also were the eyes of the disciples weighed down when Christ's passion was approaching; and when, in the first instance, the Lord found them sleeping, He let it pass,-thus indicating the patience of God in regard to the state of slumber in which men lay; but coming the second time, He aroused them, and made them stand up, in token that His passion is the arousing of His sleeping disciples, on whose account "He also descended into the lower parts of the earth,"330 to behold with His eyes the state of those who were resting from their labours,331 in reference to whom He did also declare to the disciples: "Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see and hear what ye do see and hear."332
From what I can tell quickly skimming his writings, when he speaks of the consequences of Adam's sin, it is of the consequence of death, and he contrasts this with the consequence of Jesus Christ's death, which is resurrection and new life. There appears to be no mention of inherited guilt. It's proof by absence, but what do you expect?
- True, but this quote doesn't address original sin. Most Christians have historically believed in this concept, and that most still do. Further, most Christians lived long after him. What have most Chruches and Christian denominations taught about original sin? This quote could be used as source material for coming up with a view on the subject, but it doesn't represent what any particular church teaches. Also, this quote shows that he believed that only Jesus is the way to avoid eternal death. Why would this even be necessary without original sin? RK
- I think you are confusing "original sin" with a doctrine that says that everyone sins. "Original sin" is a doctrine that says that all have inherited the stain of Adam's guilt, and that was a product of Augustine's theology. That has nothing to do with a belief that everyone sins and that the penalty of sin is death. -- Egern.
More sources, including more recent and official statements, will have to wait a day or two. I can tell you that when Augustine's theology is mentioned by any Orthodox writer I've come across, it's to point out where he's wrong more often than not. --Wesley
Here's a relatively modern statement regarding the state of the "sinner", by St. Theophan the Recluse (1802-1894) in The Path to Salvation: A Manual of Spiritual Transofrmation, page 101:
- We have said that the sinner is like a person who is sunk in deep slumber. Just as a person who is fast asleep will not stir and get up on his own in spite of approaching danger unles someone comes and rouses him, so will the person who is sunk in the slumber of sin not come to his senses and awaken unless divine grace comes to his aid. By the boundless mercy of God, this grace is prepared for everyone, approaches everyone in turn, and calls out clearly to each: "Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light" (Eph. 5:14).... Thus, there are three stages in the conversion of sinners to God: 1) arousal from the slumber of sin; 2) reaching the decision to give up sin and devote oneself to pleasing God; 3) vestment with power from on high for doing this in the Mysteries of Repentance and Communion." (BTW, the above is from a translation that's copyright 1996, so don't anyone go pasting it into a Wikipedia article.)
This isn't a statement of a council, but it is the statement of a bishop who is now regarded as a saint. The picture of the sinner fast asleep, then awakening, is very often used. In fact, the verse quoted from Ephesians is sung by the congregation (or perhaps choir) as a person is being baptized. Salvation for the Orthodox is not concerned with erasing an inherited "taint" or with legal formalities. It is concerned with repentance, change, and ultimately achieving union with God. I'm going to wait for questions before I go looking for more quotes. Wesley
- This is a good source to describe their POV, but - and I may be wrong here - doesn't appear to directly discuss the issue. We should try to get quotes that discuss the concept of original sin. RK
I'll be controversial by saying to my knowledge, the idea of original sin is only one interpretation of scripture possible among christians. It is uncontroversial to say that sin entered the world by Adam's acts. It is uncontroversial to say that Jesus is the eternal Life of God, and that believers avoid the penalty of sin by trusting in him. 'There is none righteous, no, not one' is in Romans 3:10, but it claims there to be a quote from the Jewish scriptures. (ie: 'As it is written,')
In Romans, it also says 'For he that is dead is freed from sin'. (Rom 6:7) and then proceeds to argue 'sin shall no longer have dominion over you' because of the death and resurrection of Christ.
'the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' (Rom 6:23)
So in summary, there seems to be support for the idea that sin came into the world. There seems to be support for sin bringing death into the world. There is support for Jesus giving life. The niceties of original sin versus personal sin are not supported by this scripture. It would not be NPOV, in my point of view, to make a statement in Wikipedia to the extent of 'all Christians' believe either side.
I tried to look at the main article, and feel it states Paul supported views that I don't see evidence that he supported. -- BenBaker
I have corrected the information in this article about Original Sin, which is a different doctrine altogether than merely a belief that everyone sins. "Original Sin" is not an inherent doctrine of Christianity, but rather a very specific doctrine about the transmission of guilt through inheritance. I also clarified the point that Catholicism, as of Vatican II, accepts that salvation is available to non-Christians.
Do Catholics say they changed their beliefs or they changed them without admiting they were ever different. --Taw
- As far as I know, Catholicism never admits that it has changed its official theology on anything, because that would call into question the claims it makes about itself. But the fact is that Catholicism did reverse itself on this subject, even if it doesn't admit it. -- Egern