Talk:Council of Constance
Last paragrahp needs work, since it contains a) sentences which could suggest that Poland was part of Empire (and anyone here except for Mrs. Jonat agrees that it wasn't, right) b) it contains information which doesn't really belong to entry (it should be removed and put link instead).
In few days i will remove irrlevant information and correct incorrect infos: eg: regents of empire (!!!) (They never use that title!!!! and they were regents because of they authority as archibishops, not because anything else!)
Szopen -- I agree with you, and think it would be nice to see this article well-written and perhaps even mentioning why the council was called and its ecclesiatical repercussions. However, I think maybe you are too close to the subject to be objective. In 1414, Poland is generally considered to be part of the Empire (at least by westen historians. However, that does not mean that the relationship between Polish king and Emperor was what Fr. Jonat implies. It was much more like the relationship between the kings of France and England and the emperor. Still, maybe it's a good time to leave things, unless you can back up your changes with sources we all can read (i.e., ones not in Polish -- sorry!). That way, we can avoid yet another German-Polish edit war. ;-) JHK
I have only Polish books, since if i would buy any English ones, i would be in debts above my ears. I have no access to any English books or to German ones, but i believe that facts are the same no matter in what language they are stated (of course, with remembering of language subtleties like different meaning of words). Which means most sources other provide here i cannot read. Nor many other Poles unless they would will bought it for heavy money.
Well, my source here is Antoni Prochaska, first edition in 1898, reedited and published1996:
(page 29 in second edition)
- it happened July 13(1) on metting of the nation(2), which was presided by king Sigismund(3). ...king Sigismund... asked both sides if they recognize supremacy(4) of Roman state. While Teutons with many compliments expressed their will to follow verdict of Sigismund, Polish (5)...(envoy) ... expressed (in very polite form) sovereignity of (Polish) king and crown from Empire...
(1) i guess 1415, but Prochaska style is awafull so i am not sure
(2) in Prochaska original: nacji, which in Polish could mean "nation" (second form of nacja: kogo czego nacji) or plural nations (nacje, again kogo czego nacji), and again from context it is hard to see what Prochaska had on thought
(3) Roman Emperor, right.
(4) Suzerenity, superiority, supremacy (zwierzchnia wladza)
(5) i have no idea how rzecznik could be transalted into English. Speaker, spokesman, envoy, representative.
So, as i understand it, on the Council of Constantia Poles clearly stated that they do not consider themselves part of Empire and they consider themselves independent state. If i am right, and i believe i am, if they do not consider themselves part of EMpire, if they do not obey any order of Emperor, and they behave like merely independent but like sovereign state, then they were part of Empire in the same part as England or France. If it is generally believed that France and England were part of Empire, then, well, i withdraw, go under table and bark out what i wrote before. But this would mean that term Empire means merely all crhistian states of Empire which recognise moral authority of Emperor as a head of christianity. I respect rights of historians to have their opinion, but i believe that they can't imply any other meaning of belonging of Poland to Empire.
However, i am, yes, biased and non-objective here. That's why i don't consider myself able (in contrast to entries about Polish history) to write anything about that - especially that only monography i have i a book from 100 years ago (of course i have a lot about that Council in other books). I am however opposed to:
- The primacy entitled them to rank as princes of the empire. From 1572 they held authority as regents of the empire during an interregnum.
because i don't know about using by them titles of princes of the empire, and they hold title of regentds of kingdom not empire, and not automatically because they were primaces, but because it was decided after many debates that they have biggest authority to be regents. That's why i want to erase these. Is also Concordate proper translation of nationes?
Note however that i do consider myself good enough to write about history of Poland, since i believe that many excellent books weren't ever translated into English, many findings and articles, and i feel that demanding only English books is like demanding of ignoring anything that any non-English writer wrote on the topic. I believe that Polish books are as reliable (and even better, sicne i have seen so many errors in books translated from English into Polish about our history) as English ones.