Jump to content

Talk:Psychedelic trance

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 210.200.105.231 (talk) at 08:00, 6 October 2005. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The distinction between psy and goa

Ive never heard of this genre subdivision before. I have always heard of Psychadelic Trance and Goa trance being the same thing, and though a continuous bass line is one of the features that remains throughout the full history of goa trance, the main essence of the genre I believe would be techno music which is meant to sound good on psycadelics (ie. by focusing on sound design and effects). It is also called trance, not because it is a true subgenre of trance, but for a different unknown reason.

---

There is a definite distinction between the two - goa trance is what was produced in the mid 90s and is more tightly constrained than psy trance. Psy trance often has a darker edge, for example Sandman makes psy trance but doesnt make goa trance. Saying that tho, many of the origional goa artists became psy artists.

I guess goa is a subset of psy and generally refers to the earlier works/period of the genre. Its a real but rather fine distinction

Htaccess

The discussion on goa includes a perspective on the division between the two. It's hard for me to say whether I agree with it or not, because I don't believe I've heard the style referred to by that poster as goa, distinct from psy.

In fact some of the recent additions to the list of artists on the goa page show the problem, Atmos is listed there, I would consider Atoms to be psy but not goa, likewise Sandman and Darshan are psy not goa and most stuff produced after 2000 is psy rather than goa. Goa is prana, witchcraft, sundog, total eclipse, mfg, mwnn, koxbox and the earlier works of TIP, Doof, Astral Projection, green nuns, cosmosis etc.

In a 24 hour set there is darker stuff from the middle of the night, thats psy, while morning trance, what they play when the sun comes out is goa. Goa is also more layered and involved, uses more 303 and has more of an Indian influence. Psy is harder darker faster and more minimal but can be very organic and squelchy (Australian psy is like this.), like i said its a fine distinction and diferent people have different definitions. Htaccess 06:15, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The main diference between psychedelic and goa trance, in my opinion, is that goa trance uses a lot of elements from traditional eastern music, like chanting, mantras, etc. Other than that, it's hard to draw any hard line between the two. Not that it's very important either.

The main problem with the psy vs goa arguments is that the genre(s) are still evolving and we're attempting to define them while they're in transition and are, imo, expanding. In 1996 there was Trance, with Vocal/Club, Psy, and Goa subgenres and there was a distinction between Goa and Psy (former having middle eastern/ethnic samples, latter having none of that and sometimes sci-fi samples & futuristic effects). Later on there was significant crossover between the two, in that the same artist would switch the style from song to song. Around 2000 the trance genre fractured into more styles, and club/vocal trance grew more distant from other trance (esp with italo disco influences), ambient trance really emerged, and Psy (psy-trance) became used as a larger term to encompass goa, dark psy, psy (yeah it'd be nice if new names were invented ;p) etc. I agree with the above comment - goa definitely is a pre-2000 phenomenon and I have yet to run into anything that sounds like, say, Green Nuns of the Revolution c1997, these days. The term will disappear from usage in another five years. Oh, also, there is are more differences than just middle eastern rhythms/influences for goa - the build up tends to be longer & more drawn out and slower than psy buildups. --Scyfer 06:10, 29 August 2005 (PST)


Are you certain that moodbook.com didn't copy from Wikipedia? If you look over the History of Psychedelic trance over the past two years, it seems to have gradually become more and more like moodbook.com's current entry. I looked up moodbook.com on archive.org, and only found a version of the page from Feb 2004. The domain "moodbook.com" was created Oct 07, 2003, but Wikipedia's Psychedelic Trance entry goes back to June 7, 2003. Looks to me more like moodbook.com is the copyright infringer, but I could be mistaken. --Thoric 20:19, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

After further investigation, I think you are right. Specifically, check out the evolution of this line:
  • This type of trance is used mainly in the UK and recently many Japanese artists have started to take in this genre from the influence of UK DJ's. - Wikipedia 15 Nov 2002 (first entry from a small stub-like article)
  • Recently, (2002) many Japanese artists have started to take in this genre from the influence of UK DJs. - Wikipedia 15 Nov 2002
  • As of 2002 many Japanese artists have started to take in this genre from the influence of UK DJs. - Wikipedia 5 Nov 2003 - same as Moodbook.com!
Clearly it originated on WP and not Moodbook. I'll try to bring this to the attention of admin on the copyvio page. Not sure what else could/should be done. -Ld | talk 06:34, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Good call Thoric. I checked out the Wiki article on Trance and some of the original phrasing, as of 17:46, Oct 11, 2001, was "perhaps the most ambiguous genre in the realm of electronic dance music (EDM), trance could be described as a melodic, more-or-less freeform style of music derived from techno. Or house", which is VERY close to the moodbook.com phrasing "Perhaps the most ambiguous genre of dance music, trance could be described as a melodic, more or less freeform style of music, partially derived from house". It looks like the Wiki stuff predates the moodbook stuff. Thanks.-->Chemical Halo 07:11, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
I think it's resolved for now. I have listed MoodBook.com on the forks and mirrors page [1].

Having wathched this article evolve from a stub in mid 2003 I am fairly certain there has been no large influx of new copy vio material, thus its far more likely to be the other way round which is incedentally still a copy violation because they have not included the terms of the GNU FDL "You may copy and distribute the Document in any medium, either commercially or noncommercially, provided that this License, the copyright notices, and the license notice saying this License applies to the Document are reproduced in all copies, and that you add no other conditions whatsoever to those of this License."Htaccess 07:46, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

303 Rare in psy trance?

I think the article reads okay; however, it is wrong to say - if comparing the genre to older goa music - that producers would use a Roland TB303. The majority of psychedelic trance artists would not use this instrument instead preferring digital synthesizers such as the Access Virus, Nord Lead, or Korg MS-2000 and/or plugin synths. Use of Roland TB303s is quite rare now, with the wide availability of plugin clones, and the rarity and cost of the original. I'd even go so far to dispute that goa music used the Roland TB303 in the early 1990s, pioneer artists Hallucinogen (Shpongle, The Infinity Project) AKA Simon Posford used a SH-101 - as he states on his website -, which was a more popular synth in the goa genre.

This is good info, you should consider adding it to the article, especially if you can provide backup like you do in the case of Simon Possford. Im not sure how rare the 303 was in early psy trance, time to go and listen to some of my old CD's I guess, but I'm pretty sure it will be easy to make quite a long list of psy tracks that feature the 303 Htaccess 21:35, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling/grammar

I've made some minor spelling and grammatical changes to this article. Love tha psytrance, but most people who are into it can't spell at all. :) --Myrkabah

Thanks! We're always trying to improve - it's a lot better than it used to be a few months ago. -Ld | talk 18:44, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think we are going to have a general problem with this page since it contains a list of albums under a section titled "popular". I work for a psytrance record company and there are A LOT of albums. I think everyone who releases an album wants their's listed and since "popular" is subjective. That doesn't leave much for verifiability. As a solution maybe boycot 2005 albums until 2006? Other suggestions?--Kim Nevelsteen 19:44, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Brutal suggestion: I propose to remove the entire section of "popular" albums on the basis that it is completely subjective to region, style, personal preference, etc... If you look at Gothic Rock the article is more encyclopedic in the way that it lists the foundations of the genre but doesn't have a section of "popular" music.--Kim Nevelsteen 14:00, 27 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a wikipedia acccount, but never the less I agree with you on the popular albums perspective. -User:24.147.201.151 18:14, 27 August 2005 (EST)

I dislike the popular album listing, if only because it's inaccurate and doesn't take into account global popularity at all. It also ignores a lot of mid/late 90s releases that were more popular than some of the albums listed and entire *significant* groups not even mentioned (Juno Reactor, Cydonia, Etnica, etc. - oh wait! they're in the goa section by mistake -.- Beyond the Infinite? Goa? ). Rename the list to "a few examples of psy trance listed by year" and that would be more accurate. --User:Scyfer 05:54, 29 August 2005 (PST)

"a few examples" will turn into a bigger mess than it already is. I think we need more stringent guidelines for a list. Top selling albums would be best, but there is no source for such a list. There is already a list of artists, I still vote complete removal of the entire "popular" list.(K.Nevelsteen) --None-of-the-Above 16:31, 7 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Psy/Progressive/Full-on - distinction and heirarchy

Second there is no clear distinction between what the hell full-on is vs. what it's not. I was always under the impression full-on was another term for psytrance up around 145 bpm, but anything beyond that is anal retnetive IMO unless you care to explain it to me Kim? Psychedelic trance could be derscribed as 'paranormal' to due to the interesting use of melodies on certain pieces, case in point Astrix - Techno Widows, Vibrasphere - Purple Floating (Cosma Mix), and Infected Mushroom - Ratio Shmatio those are all prime examples. -User:24.147.201.151 18:14, 27 August 2005 (EST)

Ok, for clarity, and this is NOT aimed at you, sorry. This article is completely heading in the wrong direction. There is not a single creditable source for anything here. This is an encyclopedia in which we cite sources so that others can check the credibility of the statements made. They don't have be true, but they have to be made by creditable sources. The link sections is a virtual dumping ground for links. The "popular" music section is completely subjective. There is no consolidation between this article and the article of Goa trance music or progressive. What I understand about the psychedelic community is that it started from Goa trance. There were lots of arguments about distinction of styles when more and more psytrance came out. Now years have passed and I believe psychedelic trance is the most broad term for the entire genre with Progressive, Full-on (yes your heavy paced metalic sounds) and Goa as sub-genres. Psytrance encompasses music with heavy bass and others styles that don't necessarily fit in full-on. If this is incorrect compared to what someone else understands under those terms, I ask them to speak out, because this article and the one of Goa trance music need help. Help bringing it to a NPoV with creditable sources that others can check... not opinion. And on that note, this article earns the famous NPoV flag. --Kim Nevelsteen 22:42, 27 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Try and look at it from a "music theory" perspective that's were sources should be coming from (I could see why finding sources would be quite difficult). I believe that the distinction between psychedelic trance and goa is quite clear. Goa was what it was "originally" called. Goa as as it has been said before calls upon it's "indian classical" influences for it's usage of melodies. Goa is more spiritual in nature. Many Goa artists broke off to form psychedelic trance. Psychedelic is more neo-comsic and futuristic at times with it's melodies and use of sci-fi samples (remember it's not considered western music if it has no melody ;-D). I presume you are referring to Progressive Psy? that stupid genre the swedish conconcoted for lack of better choice of words to try and be creative? i.e (Son Kite) and I still don't understand what heck full-on is? metallic paced is not a good description and it's not musical either (I am not trying to be rude). If you are going to call it that then were does psychedelic trance with heavy metal guitar riff's fit in? I we going to start calling it "Buttrock Goa" as Iskar does in his humorous guide? ;-D. I will try and find some sources for you, but it's going to be tough. Your suggestions seem good -User:24.147.201.151 18:55, 27 August 2005 (EST)

Here is post from psynews were they babble on about the formal definition of the styles (the website is not bad some of the members act like 13 year old's though). I think I understand basically what you are saying now. In order to be full-on it has to be in a certain BPM range say 145 bpm, etc or it's basically psytrance that doesn't invoke any other musical elements like pan flute, guitar, etc? I suppose it would be ok to break it down into certain sub-genres, but then you would need to include examples from each sub-genre and that would be pushing it. For instance if you wanted to call it minimal psytrance then you would need examples, like Goa Gil, etc. My choice of words for describing it as "neo-cosmic" and "futuristic" has to do with the elements and melodies present they sound both neo-cosmic and furturistic (unless there is a certain musical key you could describe it minor, etc). Hopefully somebody else could help out as well. One request I have an issue with the second suggestion some links are to "international" websites. This of course is the english section of wikipedia to don't forget. I think instead of putting them under general information they should be broken up into seperate categories like mailing lists, radio, etc. -User:24.147.201.151 17:35, 28 August 2005 (EST)

Since it is a general discussion about the two, I think it is useful to guide use in defining the distinction. However, I don't think it is a very good source since it is just a forum where anyone can edit. For the moment, I am bogged down with exams. Another week and I can do some real research. To clarify I will see that I cut out some samples of each style and try and differentiate. I might recommend you create yourself an account if you plan on contributing a lot. Makes it easier to correspond and it is a very simple process. Thanks for the input so far. --None-of-the-Above 06:59, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Suggestions

  1. Remove the "popular" album list and replace with a detailed explanation (with artist examples) of each generation of music evolving to the next, so that people can get a clear picture of this evolution.
May I suggest "MOVE" instead of "REMOVE" the album list. A new article, or category, at least for future

reference. -asmadeus 22:48, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No problem there. It might indeed be of use even though there is already a List of psychedelic trance artists--None-of-the-Above 04:29, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Clean up the dumping ground of links, especially the 'General information'. Wikipedia is an unbiased international encyclopedia. The links give should enlighten the reader to what psytrance is about or its history. Links to radio, mailing lists, etc.. are beyond the scope of this article. The links should be international, not pertaining to a specific group and preferably for English readers.
  2. CITE SOURCES: add links or reference to major CREDIBLE sources that backup what is being said so that others can check their work.
  3. consolidate the articles and specify the difference between Psytrance, Goa trance, full-on, progressive, etc... If there is a large discussion about the difference it needs to be discussed here until a mainstream concensus has been reached.

Step 1

Are we unanimous that Psychedelic trance encompasses Goa Trance, Progressive Trance, Full-on and other sub-genres? In other words that Psychedelic Trance is the broadest Genre of this style? Please state your opinion.

Thanks for the input! Do you know more history behind Progressive and why you think it is a branch of Trance? --None-of-the-Above 05:33, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a progressive side to psychedelic trance, undisputedly. It is not the same as the progressive trance of big clubs and such. The problem here is that many people within the psytrance community refer to the music simply as "trance" (see isratrance for example) and so rather than a long name like "progressive psychedelic trance" it's just "progressive" or "progressive trance". The various strains of psytrance emerge and return to the fold - sometimes they're just in use for a short period of time. Someone knowledgable should definatly make note of the "big movements" of which full-on, progressive, and "darkpsy" are currently in vogue. The style known as minimal would have been a big thing from 2000 to 2003. So what are we arriving at here... psychedelic trance is the genre, and within that genre you will have various styles expressed through movements. I think it may be important to make that distinction. It's nice that people are trying to avoid subjectivity for this article but it's just not going to happen - this is music we're talking about, and it's a type of music that is particularly underdocumented. There is no mainstream press here - no one is writing books on the subject for the most part. Go with an expert's opinion on matters of genre/style hair-splitting, I would say. 2 cents. peace.
You might want to add where you are from for clarity. Your statement is not too far off with my thoughts I don't think. --None-of-the-Above 18:10, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure who the person was with the above thorough statement (wasn't me). But I agree with what he says... -asmadeus 22:42, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yes! I agree with the anonymous poster. I am the guy who posted above only using a different IP Address I will create a wiki account shortly. "Darkpsy" is what I was thinking of especially Goa Gill compilation. -Anonymous 19:19, 13 September 2005 (UTC).

Its time for a link prune for this article, links should be to informative information about psychadelic trance and not links to forums, internet radio stations and the like. I did this with the trance article and there were onl 2 links out of about 15 that had any useful information. Htaccess 07:25, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Organising the talk page

Hi, I have just been adding headings and moving some of the comments, I hope people dont mind. There is still a section between Suggestions and Link Pruning that I have not messed with. I would like to but I'm a bit cautious of messing with peoples comments any more than I have already. Perhaps people could move their own comments to the apropriate section where discussion can be focused on a particular area. Htaccess 22:08, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

History

In the the History section it mentions South Africa as having a "small but active" psytrance scene. I went to Cape Town from December to February and I'd have to say the scene there is MASSIVE and EXTREMELY active! It seemed to me that Cape Tonians (is the spelling correct?)are totally obsessed with psytrance. There are many parties happening every weekend and a multitude of artists producing new music. I also met many travelers that, like me, went to Cape Town because we heard that the psyscene is so awesome. I went expecting a lot, but was totally blown away! Anybody else been to Cape Town for the psychedelic trance? Really, I'm wondering if CT shouldn't be specifically mentioned in the psycedelic trance article.

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Psychedelic_trance&oldid=24880556"