Talk:Eternity

The physics taught in most schools describes the universe in terms of Galilean relativity in which only the durationless present exists.

This strikes me as dubious. Could physicists attend to this? Michael Hardy 21:11, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Eternity as a timeless existence

I want to note that none of this makes sense from a logical point of view.

Near-death experience testimonies typically speak of eternity as a timeless existence by stating that portions of experiences in the eternal world lasted, say, "an hour or a month, I don't know. There was no time."

While I'm willing to believe the above is what they say, and thus factually correct, the statement makes no sense. These people not being able to say how long their experience lasted does not mean there was no time. On the contrary them suggesting their experience lasted proves there was time. In fact without time there is no time to experience anything. Even if a timeless experience was possible, it should be completely static by it's nature. I repeat my point: not being able to estimate passed time does not mean time did not pass.

Augustine of Hippo wrote that time exists only within the created universe, so that God exists outside of time; for God there is no past or future, but only an eternal present. That position is accepted by many believers.

While this is also true, this belief does not make much sense either. I won't bother to argue whether a godlike being needs time to exist, because people do not seem to agree what godlike means. Instead I just point out that according to a Christian belief, God created man as his own image. The human mental functions require time. If God is supposed to resemble humans in that he plans things before doing them (as is suggested by the Bible) he needs time to do that. Planning in itself is a process and a process is a thing which happens over time. --Lakefall 14:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry it doesn't make sense to you. Unfortunately, the POV of many believers follows the Statement, "All things are present unto God, and time is measured only unto man." And Eternity is an expression that captures this understanding. Perhaps we could discuss this for a bit and find a way to explain it better to your satisfaction. I'll throw out some ideas as a seed. Tom Haws 16:34, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

• The time-space universe is often thought of as a four-dimensional system.
• We are often thought to be forcibly hurling at light speed through the time dimension. In eternity, time could exist, but our forcible travel constraint could be lifted.
• Time is said to have begun at the Big Bang. Those who think of God as transcendent of the Universe have an easy time thinking of Him as transcendent of Space-Time.

Lakefall, the first statement doesn't mean much to me, any more than it does to you. But your remark about the statement by Augustine ignores what is ordinarily meant by the "Christian belief" that you cite. You are exaggerating the Christian understanding of the analogy between God and Man. Athough Man thinks and acts, and requires time to act, his being made in God's image does not necessarily imply that God is likewise limited by time in his thoughts and acts. Mkmcconn (Talk)

Hi, Mkmcconn. Long time no see. It is good to see you are around still. I am interested in improving this article, and the three of us should have diverse enough POVs to do a pretty good job. Tom Haws 18:33, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Hi Tom. Nice to see you too. It's good to be missed, but I didn't even make the list of Missing Wikipedians, so I'm hurt ;-)

My problem with the article might be too idiosyncratic to be of help. The article suggests that eternity is either, an infinite amount of time, a state of being for which the extent of time is irrelevant or non-existent, or a "place" or "dimension" (for lack of better terms) that is not affected by time. While I'm sure that there are real representatives for all of these abstract views, none of them means much to me. God is eternity. There is no other entity, state of being, or "place", to which the term properly applies. God is a Trinity, and each person of the Trinity contains God in fullness, not in part: and in this sense, "eternity" is the dwellingplace of God, because God dwells in God. Only God contains God, and in this sense eternity may be said to exist "outside of time" (although not in the sense of being antithetical to, or incapable of entrance into, time). "Eternal" life is not a state of timeless existence into which human beings may enter, but is rather, union with God through Jesus Christ. It is true that, with this, I suppose that propositions concerning God cannot be valid, if they assume that God is limited by anything other than himself; but positively, I am not sure what that means with regard to such concepts as "sequence" and "duration", and other timeful terms, as applied to God. Mkmcconn (Talk) \

I assume that these are common Christian views, but I do not know how widely they are held, or if I'm expressing them in a way that others would assent to. Do you think that there is something in what I've said that has sufficient credentials that it might help with the article? Mkmcconn (Talk) 19:28, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think much of that view is common. It is suprising to me to see how many of the views of Latter Day Saints are common with yours. For example, I had no idea until I read your statement above that outside Mormonism was accepted the idea that "Eternal Life is life with God, and Eternal Punishment is God's punishment, for Eternal is the name of God." Tom Haws 21:13, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

It's confusing to me though, that a name which I assume means something like, "inherently transcendent of all timeful limitation", "absolutely self-existent", you could apply to an exalted man, if that is what the Heavenly Father is in Mormon doctrine. Mkmcconn (Talk) 21:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I sympathize with you. I guess you either accept the paradox blindly, reject it handily, or wrestle with it prayerfully. One thing is for sure; it would take me more than a couple of sentences to explore it with you. One clue, though, is that the "Eternal is my name" is scriptural in Mormonism, while "God is an exalted man" is commentary. So we take the first as the basis and the second as mind-expanding food for thought. If this impinges on the article at hand, we may have to explore it further, and I think it may. The article might do a better job of exploring how intertwined are the ideas of God and Eternity, and how Eternity is in religious circles used as a name of God (or a means of describing for the frail human mind important aspects of God as opposed to this World). Tom Haws 21:56, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I started a religious argumentation, which I probably shouldn't have done, as they practically never lead anywhere. But still, if God isn't "limited" by needing time to think, he isn't a thinking being, but a static object (or similar). This issue can be dodged with several ways, all with problems. We could say something vague like that God is the universe (or nature), which in practice only gives the universe a new name and makes the God vanish in a puff of definition. On the other hand we could assume God does have time (exist in time), but his time is not our time. That would mean our universe could be a static four (or more) dimensional object to him, which he can adjust to his liking, play football with or whatever he's doing. That idea would ruin the another idea about God being the prime mover, because it would appear this God exists in another universe of some kind. On the other hand I don't think any thinking being, which the Christian God appears to be, can be the prime mover for the reasons I've tried to explain above. Since this is a religious argumentation I expect a lot of replies saying: "It is sad you cannot think that way. Mysterious are His ways!" ;-P --Lakefall 2 July 2005 18:25 (UTC)

Let me add one thing. The article says: "And one need not believe in God in order to hold this concept of eternity: an atheist mathematician can maintain the philosophical tenet that numbers and the relationships among them exist outside of time, and so are in that sense eternal." Show me an atheist mathematician, who says numbers or their relations think or are conscious. My point is we can have a God that thinks or a God that is timeless. Trying to have both is like saying God can create a rock, which is so heavy even he himself cannot lift it, and then lift it, because he's just such a bad-ass. Sure you can say so, but it doesn't make sense. --Lakefall 2 July 2005 19:33 (UTC)

why does this article about eternity has to have all those new agey concepts?? why not just leave it at maths and physics?