Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction)

Small (edit) nit - large nit (since July??)

Could someone change "Articles on of works" to "Articles on works"? But, uh, this policy/essay/Fly agaric has been protected since July? Wow. Quick, people, the authors are gaining on you.... Shenme (talk) 05:31, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Fictional elements as part of a larger topic (FEAPOALT)

In order to bring WP:FICT in line with other Wikipedia policies and guidelines, we should move to strike this section on the basis that it is unworkable and inconsistent with the rest Wikipedia:

1. The underlying problem with FEAPOALT is that it contains several assumptions which conflict with the overarching consensus at policy level, which has resulted in WP:FICT becoming an editorial walled garden that suggest that fictional topics should be treated differently from subject areas, such as people. For instance, if there is consensus that a living person is of unproven notability, then there is no evidence that the topic is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia in accordance with WP:BIO, then why should a fictional character be given a different treatment? Even if such a fictional element were to be included, there is a secondary issue that must be addressed: a topic that fails WP:N is also likely to fail other Wikipedia content policies as well, which leaves such a topic open to becoming potential deletion candidate at some point in the future.
2. The section Creating fictional element lists is also out of step with policy consensus. Firstly there is a mistaken assumption in this section that fictional elements which fail WP:N provide some sort of "encyclopedic coverage". However this goes against the principle that an article is encyclopedic if it notable and its content meets Wikipedia content policies as well. Secondly there is also a mistaken assumption that of individually non-notable elements can merit bing grouped together as a list, but this goes against WP:NOT which states that Wikipedia not an indiscriminate collection of information; merely being true or useful does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia.
   
3. My estimate that 95% of all articles and lists about fictional elements (characters, locations, episodes, event and articifacts) fail WP:N, and that the content of those articles fail one or more content polices as well as WP:WAF. If the coverage of fiction is to be improved, then WP:FICT needs to give useful (as opposed to misleading) guidance.

To make WP:FICT as useful guideline once again, we need to jettison these sections, as they are not workable in practise, and do not fit into the framework of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, but also because they are inclusion criteria for topics of unproven notabality that are less discriminating than other subject areas, and giving such a diverse and well sourced subject area such as fiction special treatment when it is not need is an error in judgement. --Gavin Collins (talk) 12:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

While I understand the well-meaning behind the section, the issue is here: "If consensus on a fictional element is that it is of unproven notability, editors should seek to retain the information where it can improve the encyclopedia." I understand that people don't want to sacrifice information, and in certain cases WP:IAR might allow such non-notable info to stay in the purpose of bettering the encyclopedia, but this line basically says that even if it's non-notable, people can stick it somewhere else, such as in a list. I think a more appropriate step is to try to find a way to work without the non-notable content; often, it takes some reorganization, but it's better than forced accommodation of topics. Each and every article 'saved' from the fire in this way should have a proper defense on why the info is being retained, even when non-notable. So, in short, frag the section. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 13:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Lists of episodes and characters are common practice of articles at AFD, and in line with the general consensus (though still waiting for an absolute neutral review) WP:N RFC that certain expections to the GNG exist for lists of this nature. And again, we come back to the question: if a list of characters or episodes that is part of an article (ignoring size issues) is ok, then what sudden magic distinction does spliting off that list to a separate article make it not ok? There's a reason notability refers to topics, and not to articles; articles are arbitary bounds to make information easier to read on screen. This is not to make articles on single characters or the like without notability ok - those are problematic and should still be trimmed and merged. --MASEM 14:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Lists of characters are okay in the sense that it is expected that there's a certain amount of plot necessary for readers to understand the fiction. Same thing with setting; these aid introduction and (ideally) should help keep the actual plot less confusing and jargon-filled (ex. in Halo the setting explains the events leading up to the game, the important things you have to know: "THESE ARE HALOS. HALOS BAD" et al.) Spinning off lists of characters from single games is a 99.99% bad idea, as there is no real reason the characters cannot be discussed in the work. The trickiness comes in when you're trying to track characters over multiple works, such as multiple games, novels, et al. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 18:51, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course - We don't have lists of characters from a non-series movie, from a single video game, or other singular works - unless, as in the case of the various Final Fantasy lists, the characters or the grouping of characters has notability on its own. These are the exceptions. Again, I am pretty confident that we can write a set of bright-line rules on when lists of episodes and characters are appropriate and when they are not. --MASEM 19:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I would think we'd need two criteria to be filled: 1) The characters must be demonstrated notable as a whole via reliable secondary sources, and 2) the list significantly benefits navigation and style of multiple articles. Not exactly the most black and white criteria, but if we have #1 we eliminate barely notable articles which will never get to a high level of quality. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 21:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

• In answer to Masem, the problem with grouping lists of characters from different stories or episodes is that it risks giving rise to synthesis of differing (or even disparate) sources being created, whilst those that don't have any sources at all are likely to be original research.
  To avoid falling into this trap, the jumping off point for the creation of an article or a list should be notability, which is a good indicator of whether or not a topic is "suitable" for inclusion in Wikipedia. A "suitable" topic in this context means that there is sufficient real-world content, context, analysis or criticism from reliable secondary sources to write an article whose content meets Wikipedia content polices. If a topic fails WP:N, then it is highly likely that it will also fail one or more content policies, such as WP:NOT.
  Without trying to belittle the efforts of Phil and Masem at User:Phil Sandifer/Fiction proposal, they face an uphill struggle: a topic that fails WP:N does not have a lot going for it, and faces a difficult task of proving that it is not listcruft, or that it does not fail one of the content policies. A recent disussion about a fictional foxes illustrates this point: if a list is not supported by reliable secondary sources, how can you be sure that the list contents are categorised correctly? I would argue that it is very easy to find faults with lists that are synthesised or based on original research. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

• Don't be silly. You know as well as I do that the practical consensus on AfD for the sorts of deletions that you're suggesting simply does not exist. There's little uphill struggle in what I'm trying to do. Or at least, there shouldn't be - can you point to anything in my proposal that would support keeping an article that would be deleted via an AfD discussion? Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think this proposal fails both to find support in the recent RFC and with existing practise on Wikipedia. I readily agree that a revised and improved guideline is needed, and I've made a proposal to this effect a few sections up. But this amounts to another in a long list of attempts to ram through a view of notability that justifies controversial deletions that lack consensus. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

• If I should be so bold, but I think the consensus at the RFC that the concept of notability should not be disgarded, or that any exemption should be given to a particular subject area. My view is that if we have good rather than misleading guidelines, then contraversial deletions are less likely to occur. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

  Personally, I think the consensus at the RFC is that I was right, that policy should be changed to reflect my views, and that AFD practice should and will follow my lead. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 10:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

• What view are they? (I am not familiar with them). --Gavin Collins (talk) 10:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

  Well, I noticed a majority support in the #AMIB is right section, and a plurality (albeit not a majority) of support in the #Do the thing AMIB said section. ¬_¬ (Psssssst. Argue about what the RFC means on its talk page, don't let it leak out all over every related page.) - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 10:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the consensus was that a middle path between applying the GNG strictly to every fiction article and treating fiction articles as sub-articles needs to be forged. Certainly, given the divisiveness of the RFC, I think it has to be taken as a call for a more moderate path than either extreme in some form. So I confess, I'm disheartened to see what amounts to another hard-line deletionist proposal, particularly from someone who did not see fit to offer any comment on my more moderate proposal above. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

the idea that we somehow are creating a special case for fictional elements is ridiculous. Take a look at how many non-notable animals, plants, math theorems, buildings, and roads we have articles about - to compare the stringent requirements of BIO (which only exist because of legal responsibilities against libel) to the requirements practiced by the whole of wikipedia is a flawed argument. This isn't an OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument, this is a wake-up call that the whole of wikipedia does NOT operate on these boxed-in rules and that every single genera handles their notability requirements differently, so we should stop pretending that Fiction articles cannot. -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 20:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it still is an OTHERCRAPEXISTS arguments, because your using crappy rules and articles in other areas to provide a justification for our crappy articles and rules. Just because it doesn't work out like it's supposed to doesn't mean the stuff shouldnt exist. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 21:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm unconvinced, of course, that OTHERCRAPEXISTS is prima facia a bad argument. Clearly we apply standards beyond WP:N in some cases. The question is what the appropriate standards for a given area are. Strict adherence to WP:N is a position that has marginal consensus at best in the practical matter of AfD - there are clearly other forces at work. Which makes sense, as WP:N was a guideline that staggered into existence as a triangulation among two diametrically opposed camps.

My end point being that notability disputes are notoriously thorny, and that they do not readily resolve themselves in principled ways. We ought remember that we have a non-trivial contingent of editors who are, in fact, firm inclusionists. Such editors do not hold a majority, little yet a consensus position, but we ought remember that, unlike NPOV and V, this is not an area where the underlying principles enjoy universal assent. To my mind, OTHERCRAPEXISTS is, in the end, a wrongly dismissed line of argument that points out the underlying fact that our inclusion decisions do not operate along strict rules.

And if nothing else, I point out that OTHERCRAPEXISTS is an essay with no policy weight, and that writing an essay dismissing arguments you don't like and getting it widely cited does not in fact invalidate any of the arguments. I would go so far as to say that one of the worst arguments in deletion debates is any citation to WP:ATA. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I should also point out that of the articles you listed, several may in fact be notable, but proper sources have not been added. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 21:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

That argument, of course, is easily extended to a lot of fiction articles. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

In which case supporters of keeping the article at AfD should add the sources, so even if its a crap article it meets WP:N. As to the OCE argument, I consider it generally bad because due to the open nature of the wiki, something existing doesn't prove or invalidate a policy, guideline, or position. If I argue that Sir Bad Argument doesn't exist, but there's an article on him, that doesn't prove he exists or doesnt. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 15:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Sources are by far the best way to show notability, I won't disagree. But they're not the only path. As for OCE, OCE is not prima facia valid. But it is still important - particularly when applied on a broad scale so as to show trends in inclusion as opposed to isolated incidents. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

actually, the examples don't matter, the point of the argument is that elements of fiction are held to the same notability standards as BIO articles, under the premise that all of wikipedia operates this way - but it doesn't. Wikipedia, in practice, adopts special notability requirements for each general topic. The deletion/merge side has consistently said the inclusionary side is wanting "special consideration," creating a "walled garden" from notability for fictional elements - it's a silly argument because the inclusionary side is only asking equal consideration.

as to my examples, there are literally hundreds of more organisms i could have cited which have no more than a passing mention in any text, and i know for certain there's nothing really notable about Rt. 173, i live near it - but if i was being pointy and AFD'd it, i'm sure someone would put in a history section and what locals are planning for the future, which is really just equivocal of me saying, "Mareep was created in XXXX year with the releas of Pokemon Gold." Same kind of content, doesn't increase notability, but it takes more words so it looks nicer as an article :) -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 06:43, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• In answer to Zappernapper, I think you may be mistaken that "Wikipedia adopts special notability requirements for each general topic in practice", when in fact I think what you are actually suggesting is that different notability guidelines interpret the presumption of notability in different ways. GNG can be applied consistently across all subject areas because it is an evidence based guideline, but the subject specific guidelines make different presumptions about when or how GNG is met which are based only on opinion.
  The example which you give, which suggest that non-notable organisms are treated differently is not relevant, as such topics fail WP:NOT#DIR, which is why Wikispecies was created to accomodate them. Furthermore, the Lists of Pokémon like Mareep fail WP:NOT#GUIDE or WP:NOT#PLOT, and will probably be deleted over time unless real-world content can be added to them.
  The idea that notability can be presumed is a controversial area, because it goes against the principle that notability cannot be inherited/presumed/acknowledged. It is also impossible to write an article in the absence of non-trivial real-world content cited from reliable secondary sources, because such an article is likely to fail the content guidelines.
  FEAPOALT is just another way of saying that notability can be inherited, but all the evidence is going the other way, which is why we need to jettison this section. --Gavin Collins (talk) 15:54, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• I am baffled how presumed notability, which is in WP:N and thus a guideline, would be controversial because an ill-conceived essay talks about inheriting notability. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:14, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• Just to be clear, I was refering to presuming that a topic is notable without providing any evidence (i.e. reliable secondary sources are absent). --Gavin Collins (talk) 17:11, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• As was I. And I quote from WP:N: "Although articles should demonstrate the notability of their topics, and articles on topics that do not meet this criterion are generally deleted, it is important to not just consider whether notability is established by the article, but whether it readily could be. When discussing whether to delete or merge an article due to non-notability, the discussion should focus not only on whether notability is established in the article, but on what the probability is that notability could be established. If it is likely that significant coverage in independent sources can be found for a topic, deletion due to lack of notability is inappropriate unless active effort has been made to find these sources. For articles of unclear notability, deletion should be a last resort." That would be the establishment of a concept of presumption of notability. Phil Sandifer (talk) 18:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

But the only way to prove that notability can be established is pony up some sources. Saying "it's probable that there's going to be information about Foo" is a worthless addition to a discussion and doesn't prove anything; if a hundred or a thousand people say it's probable, that still shouldn't make a difference. We should be operating on what can be determined; if someone says "based on its mentions in X and Y, I think it's likely there's more sources out there and will be," that's a different puppy. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 18:46, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Bull. It is often very straightforward to anticipate the existence of sources. Demanding that sources be produced in a five day window only increases presentism and online bias. Faster and worse is not a model for improving articles. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• It is not straightforward at all. For instance, 95% of all articles on elements of fiction (characters, events, locations etc.) are of unproven notability and it is getting to the point where a presumption of notability for fictional elements is worthless. There is no evidence of notability until such point as reliable secondary sources are cited. However what is more important is it is just not possible to write encyclopedic article without reliable secondary sources. Saying that a topic is notable is no good if you have nothing suitable to write about it, and that is what the section FEAPOALT fails to take into account. --Gavin Collins (talk) 10:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• And yet AFD continues to be able to handle the articles and generally come to sane conclusions. The declaration that "there is no evidence of notability until such point as reliable secondary sources are cited" is untrue and ludicrous, and is small-minded and dogmatic thinking at its worst. I am incapable of believing that you are actually foolish enough to think it, and that it is not a case of simply setting the bar at such a height as to achieve a desired result. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Get over yourself Phil, just because the world doesn't happen to agree with you doesn't mean we are dolts. Explain how it is "untrue and ludicrous" for us to ask that articles prove their notability with sources? It's perfectly in line with WP:N's nutshell "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." It's objective, which is good. Saying "it's notable 'cause I say it is" is subjective. Not good for the purposes of applying a standard. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 18:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I've no clue if you're dolts. You could be being willfully disingenuous. I'm open to either possibility. It remains the case, however, that the proposition that there is no way to gauge whether reliable sources can be found for a topic short of actually finding them is completely and utterly stupid. You will find nobody outside of the bizarre bubble that is the Wikipedia editing community who would actually accept the proposition that there is no way to tell whether sources are likely to exist for a topic short of actually finding them. It is a completely and utterly moronic claim. I do not know if you are making it sincerely or because it serves a pragmatic goal of yours, but in either case, it is a completely worthless argument that deserves no serious consideration, which is probably why it has never gained anything resembling traction as a methodology for deciding even remotely contentious AFDs. Do you have a serious proposal in this area? Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• In answer to Phil, whether or not a subject is notable is not the only issue, it is what is presented the reader that is more important. Since you can't write an encyclopedic article without real-world non-trivial coverage from reliable secondary sources, why to we have to should we presume that we can write an encyclopedic article about non-notable fictional elements any differently? Readers want to see context, analysis and criticism in articles about about fiction, so what is the point of giving special emphasis to listcruft that is not notable? You have failed to answer this question for a long time now. In most cases, topics that fail the inclusion criteria WP:N also fail content policies like WP:NOT, and really this is what this guideline should be all about, not trying to pretend the opposite is true. I think we should build Wikipedia by standing on the shoulders of giants, rather than relying on hearsay, rumour or opinion, not just for the sake of notability itself, but becuase an encyclopedic article can't be written without reliable secondary sources. --Gavin Collins (talk) 21:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• Sure. I agree with you. The issue is that failing WP:NOT#PLOT is not grounds for deletion - especially given that WP:NOT#PLOT does not say no plot, it says more than just plot. That is, plot is still something we're supposed to have. We're just also supposed to have more. Deletion is a poor mechanism for expansion by any standards. I agree with you wholeheartedly - we have a lot of crap coverage of fictional subjects that needs serious attention. But deletion isn't the attention it needs, and the notability issue is fundamentally entwined with deletion.
• You know full well that I've been an active and strong proponent of cleanup of fictional articles. I led the fight to get rid of spoiler tags, I've been a strong advocate of out-of-universe style, I've pushed hard to work better with other Wikis to off-load accurate but inappropriate content in a non-hostile way, I've written guidelines on writing better plot summaries. When it comes to fixing bad articles on fiction, you'll find no better ally than me, and you know it. But deletion is a bad way of fixing articles. The worst way. It's the thing we do when nothing else will fix the article.
• I'd like nothing more than to be able to have spent the time I've spent fighting mass deletion of fiction articles for the past, what, six months? And that's just the latest flare-up? I'd like nothing more than to have that time back so I could spend it working towards mass improvement of articles. But as long as the biggest problem facing fiction articles is the prospect of deleting tons of content on topics that could prove notability, and where significant portions of the articles we have would still exist as part of good coverage on the topic, I don't see how I can, in good conscience, devote that time towards clean-up.
• And this is what gobsmacks me, frankly. Two sections up, I've got a proposal that I think would work. It puts the bar at a meaningful place, it puts the bar at a place that is close to the practical consensus we get on AfD, and it lets us move on to other things. There's a solution to this problem two sections up, but we're ignoring it in favor of a piece of fucking dinner theater that's never going to garner consensus! You know there's not consensus for the "slash episodes and characters articles unless they fully demonstrate compliance with WP:N" view. You know it, because you've looked at AfD the same way I have, and you've seen that viewpoint fail to garner traction on tons of AfDs. But instead of making comments that move us toward a viewpoint that actually would get the nod from the various and sundry parties involved, you're pushing a doomed endeavor.
• If we pushed the ball hard on getting the notability standards I proposed two sections up in place as a guideline, we'd have the bulk of this issue settled and we could move on to better projects. Please - I am begging you here - get behind a practical effort that has a shot at working, help me get this issue to bed, and let's move on to other tasks. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

←I'm disengaging from this. You have little right to accuse me of ulterior motives or stupidity, Phil, when you cried like a baby over the fact your shitty article got defeatured over sourcing issues. I have based all my arguments on guidelines and policies; you have not. Yet as you refuse to consider any alternative view besides your own, this discussion has no more purpose. I'm done feeding the trolls. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 21:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. That was all I was asking for. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• Regardless, I have yet to hear a reason why FEAPOALT should remain, and I will request its removal, unless anyone has any objections. --Gavin Collins (talk) 21:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

For those who are interested, Spoo (the article impolitely derided above) is currently at WP:GAN, after several independent sources have been added. Jclemens (talk) 00:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I object, to Gavin.collins making any changes to this article due to his current dispute over article notability in wikiproject D&D. Until that is resolved in some fashion, it is extemely difficult to assume good faith about his edits. Kairos (talk) 15:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

A plea

I made a long comment to this effect in the section above. But I'll try again here, and shorter. I have a proposal at User:Phil Sandifer/Fiction proposal. I think it's a good proposal. I think it works. I'm sure it can be made better, and I'd love to make it better. But I think, at the core of it, it's a good proposal that puts this issue to bed. It reflects the reality of AfD, and it's a midpoint between the strong inclusionist and deletionist standards.

So far, it's gotten little attention.

Maybe I'm wrong and it won't work or can't gain consensus. I don't think I am, but if I thought I was, I'd change my mind, so that doesn't say much.

But please. Tell me why I'm wrong, tell me how the proposal could be better, or tell me you support it. Because I'm dead tired of this fight, and I want to move on to improving our coverage of fictional subjects in more productive and rewarding ways than this.

Does the proposal work? If not, why not? And when can I move it to the project namespace and replace the essay version of this with a guideline-strength version? Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I like it. I'm especially glad to see the sections on "semi-reliable sources" and "bias towards commercialism". The latter, especially, is an interesting dilemma. While it's easy to write paragraphs of reception info for a Dr. Who episode, it would be close to impossible to do the same for shows like Golden Girls or even Friends. (Frankly, I think the reception section of that Dr. Who article is an example of a different kind of cruft. But that's a discussion for another page.) Zagalejo^^^ 23:19, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

We are still trying to wait on the WP:N RFC to get a third-party review ( I don't know how that's going), but I'm sure there's enough agreement by all but a few that what your essay states is accurate of the status quo and how things should be considered. I doubt doing what I suggest will end the issues but it is a step moving, but here's what I suggest you do:

• Archive the current FICT somewhere ("Proposed2008" or something).
• Move your essay into FICT, but tag it as proposed or whatever to make it clear its not a guideline yet.
• Make sure to add in all the other stuff that would be part of FICT (shortcut, etc.); make sure to provide a hatnote link to the archived version of the old one.
• Announce to WP:VP, get a message in the fict notice box. Wait for feedback.

Now while I would normally say be bold on this, we're talking a major change here. I know that at least one person will completely disagree with the version, that's too bad at this point since clearly the flow is against what that person wants, but we should make sure those that are regulars to FICT or WP:N or whatever are ok with moving it into FICT as to at least restart discussion on the subject as it does linger in Essay-space but its more than an essay. You may want to msg David, DGG, Kww, Randoman, Pixelface, and a few others and ask them to thumbs up or down for just getting it in here - we don't need consensus now on it, just that we want to know do they feel we have a good starting point from that version to a working FICT. Once here and more eyes start looking at it, we can get a better handle of what tweaks are needed, and hopefully soon incorporate anything from the WP:N RFC to correct it. --MASEM 23:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

On the whole, it seems okay, however "Semi-reliable sources" is completely unacceptable to me. It attempts to supercede WP:RS which just shouldn't happen. If there are no reliable sources providing coverage, it shouldn't have an article. Allowing such sources pretty much guarantees the article will never be GA nor FA, which, again, brings into question whether it should exist at all. I also can not say I can agree with the four prong test, as far too many people would use it to claim "main character, so they can have an article" irregardless of the lack of extensive sources, either primary or secondary, and the article will always be nothing but plot. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 23:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, "main character so they can have an article" is pretty explicitly verboten, no? I mean, I can strengthen the wording about having to pass all four prongs. As for semi-reliable sources, I think the problem there is more in the name than the concept, which is really just a restatement of using self-published sources as primary sources about their own views. Perhaps if I changed it to self-published sources? Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:24, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Should the issue of reliability even come into play when you just want to quote a review, like those at Television Without Pity? Zagalejo^^^ 00:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes and no. I think the problem is in "semi-reliable sources," which needlessly introduces a new concept when old concepts will suffice. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:24, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Collectonian on that. An article about fiction needs reliable sources. It's very bad to see articles having as references sites with spoilers or blogs. -- Magioladitis (talk) 00:14, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, though those sites can still be significant viewpoints without being reliable sources. That's an important distinction. It's also significant, I think, to distinguish between necessary to keep and necessary for GA/FA status. Certainly reliable sources are needed somewhere along the article's development. But on the other hand, I don't think anybody would dispute that TWoP (Or even Zap2It, which has both blogs and spoiler warnings, I believe) are sources that should be cited in reception sections, albeit using them as the self-published sources they are. I'll change the wording to clarify. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:24, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Per various comments, I've recast the previous "Semi-Reliable sources" section to make it follow more directly from WP:QS, which was what it was originally seeking to be compliant with. Does this address the criticisms? Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:29, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The first issue that I can see is a personal preference of mine: Under "Specific tendencies - episodes", you mention list articles, however I feel that there is a risk of ending up with hideous raw 'list of episodes' articles (just the names, airing dates, and brief summary), rather than what I always felt was prefered in the ideal case - things like entire season summaries (which may include the raw list within them, as a smaller part of the whole). Indeed, when done properly I feel that combined season summaries can actually offer far greater value than individual episode articles for many shows. This potential for added value is, I believe, worth exploring. Secondly, on "primary sources" regarding plot summaries, it may be worth stating explicitly that "commentary should not be offered", and stressing the "obvious" test. Plot summaries have classically been one of the major areas of contention certain groups have had with articles about fiction, so the more work done to ensure quality, the better. Finally, on the section regarding bias, I think that the issue of recentism/presentist is perhaps given too minimal a role, what with the header for the section entirely ignoring it. The other classic wikipedia biases also will come into play, especially with respect to non-english-language works. Perhaps a more general section title and a few changes to the wording would help. To be honest, I feel much of what I've written is personal nitpicking. It is generally a very good proposal, well done! LinaMishima (talk) 01:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

"hideous raw 'list of episodes' articles (just the names, airing dates, and brief summary)" are considered perfectly acceptable starting points for episode lists and have overall consensus. Season summaries do not, except where a series is long enough to actually warrant seasonal pages, and even then, season summaries are optional, not the most preferred. Episode lists with individual summaries are the most strongly preferred among all related projects, and changing that is not something this should be dealing with as it has nothing to do with notability but MoS, which is up to the TV and other projects that deal with episodes, including specifying length of summaries, lead length/content, etc. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 15:36, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

'List of episodes' are not considered perfectly acceptable - see my proposal at Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not/Archive_21#Wikipedia_is_not_a_Movie.2C_Book_or_TV_Guide. I think you will find that 'list of episodes' that fail to demonstrate notability fail WP:NOT, as they don't contain encyclopedic content, such as context, analysis or criticism relating to their subject matter. --Gavin Collins (talk) 21:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you really think there's consensus for that view? I've never seen it borne out on AfD, so I have trouble basing an inclusion guideline on it. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:59, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• Articles on fictional characters without notability get deleted all the time - see Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Fictional characters for the ongoing discussions. --Gavin Collins (talk) 11:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

• Singular fictional character articles, yes, are often recommended for merging or deletion after AFD, but lists of such are much less likely, and in fact are often the recommended merge targets for the singular characters. These lists are considered to be accepter from AFD and from the RFC on WP:N. --MASEM 12:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

• I think you will find that list of fictional characters come up for deletion as well on a regular basis: have a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of minor Power Rangers characters. --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

• Sure, but you're the only one voting delete there, and it's obviously going to be kept. So I don't think that contributes much to your claim that the list articles are problematic. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:02, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

• I think you will find that the arguements I put forward were the only ones not based on WP:ILIKEIT. Under existing policy and guidelines, there is no other reasonable justification for keeping original research of this type.
  There are many other examples of lists that have been deleted and here are just a few:

1. List of robots from WALL-E
2. List of minor Star Wars bounty hunters
3. List of Springfield Elementary School students
4. List of public domain characters
5. List of fictional war heroes
6. List of Young Dracula characters

I don't think that your claim that lists of such are much less likely to be deleted holds true at all. --Gavin Collins (talk) 12:28, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

None of those appear to have been deleted on notability grounds - WALL-E was a short list merged upwards into a main article. Star Wars bounty hunters, the primary concern was verifiability. Springfield Elementary School students was merged upwards because of organization concerns, and again, because there was no pressing need to spin off. Public domain characters was infinitely large, and deleted on those grounds. Only the Young Dracula characters list dealt with notability concerns, and it was, frankly, closed incorrectly as no consensus existed on that AfD. As for your dismissal of all the other arguments in the Power Rangers debate, it is both wrong and offensively dismissive.

If there are points in this proposal that give the impression that lists can be split off from other lists randomly and indiscriminately, please let me know and I will fix it. However, the issue in the deletions you listed was not notability - it was, in almost every case, "there is a more general list article that adequately handles this situation," which is a different matter. I will agree, that there is notability criterion in play for lists, and that we do not keep lists on any sort of trivial matter. But I think it is clear that we accept lists more readily than articles, and that merging non-notable articles into a list is often done. If there is clarification you want in the proposal, let me know, but for the most part I think list notability is a separate issue, and that this follows from the generally accepted premise that lists are in general more permissive. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:23, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• If any of them had been notable, then they would not have been deleted; if an article or list fails WP:N, then it is likely to fail WP:NOT or some other content policy. Failing WP:NOT or WP:WAF are usually symptoms that an article or list fails WP:N. I disagree that we accept accept lists than contain non-notable material - I think you are aware that listcruft is not popular at AfD There is no "generally accepted premise" that lists are more permissive, as WP:LISTS says "Lists, whether they are embedded lists or stand-alone lists, are encyclopedic content as are paragraphs and articles, and they are equally subject to Wikipedia's content policies". --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• If you are seriously suggesting that there is no existing consensus to merge episode and character articles into list articles, you are no longer describing anything that resembles the project as it exists. You're just being silly here. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:15, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• I have seen lots of non-notable content being merged into lists, but there is no consensus for list articles into which this content can be dumped. There is no defence for non-notable topics against further merger or deletion just because it is in a list. --Gavin Collins (talk) 15:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• Ridiculous. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:19, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
• The RFC on WP:N suggests otherwise, in addition to countless AFDs that recommend merges of non-notable characters/elements into lists. What magical change happens when a list of characters embedded in an larger topic is moved into its own article that causes it to suddenly be disallowed? (remembering, of course, that WP:N applies to topic-space, not article boundaries). --MASEM 16:26, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• I don't know where you are obtaining your information, but when I last looked there was no consensus for such ideas - see Wikipedia_talk:Notability/RFC:compromise#Results. In Wikipedia mainspace, both lists and articles are tested for the encyclopedic value with reference to WP:N and CAT:CONTENT. As the above examples show, lists do get deleted, and I think it would be misleading for this guideline to suggest that they are a safe haven for listcruft, because they are not. If we try to build an editorial walled garden for episodes and characters of unproven notability, I would say that it is built on foundations of sand, not consensus at policy level.--Gavin Collins (talk) 16:48, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• This guideline says nothing about lists beyond the observation that there is often consensus for merging to list articles, which is clearly factually the case, as the RFC shows. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:10, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Barring objection

Barring objection, I'm going to move the proposal discussed above to the project space, archiving the current version, and start seeking consensus for it as the new guideline. I'll probably do this tonight unless someone says I shouldn't. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:30, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• I object, on the grounds that if a topic or list of topics is not notable, then it fails Wikipedia inclusion criteria and content guidelines. I think the proposal fails to address the issue that you can't write an encyclopedic article without real-world context, analysis or criticism cited from reliable secondary sources. The proposal fails to explain why is diverges from WP:N.--Gavin Collins (talk) 21:37, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

The proposal isn't seeking to explain - it's seeking to follow up on the actual consensus that we have. Do you actually dispute the fact that there is no consensus for applying WP:N strictly on fiction articles? Based on AfD, on the RFC, and on everything that has come before, do you seriously claim that there is consensus for strict application of WP:N?

The proposal, incidentally, has nothing on lists beyond an acknowledgement that consensus exists to merge upwards. This seems empirically the case - have list of episodes articles been regularly deleted for lack of notability? And it acknowledges that the guidelines listed are sufficient only for inclusion, not for quality. Again, this is borne out. But unless you can present some evidence that your view has anything approaching consensus, I have trouble taking it as a meaningful objection. The fact of the matter is, there is no consensus for strict application of WP:N here, nor for requiring secondary sources as a condition of inclusion in all cases on fiction articles. Unless you can show some evidence otherwise, then I don't think that you really have much grounds to hold up an inclusion guideline because it fails to meet a bar that is obviously not actually used in inclusion decisions. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:57, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

All right. I've imported it to the project namespace. I'm going to wait until morning to widely announce it to make sure that move doesn't spark an edit war, but if it's stable come morning I'm going to announce it to a few of the major participants in this debate, VP, and the Fiction noticeboard. Phil Sandifer (talk) 23:02, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• I guess... I stayed out of most of this debate because I can't keep up with the volume of conversation on the subject. I like the pragmatic angle that the proposal takes but I don't like that the outcome is "we should lower our standards for sourcing and provide arbitrary metrics for inclusion". I know that is a gross oversimplification, but I can't see "context within the fictional world" and "complexity of plot" being wielded appropriately as decision rules. But it's better than the current page. Protonk (talk) 00:48, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

• • Well, and to be fair, I don't like deleting episode articles at all. But I think that softened standards and those metrics are what we have, so we may as well write it down. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
    • I think it accurately represents common practice, and I like it. The discussion begins again. Yikes! - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:56, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
• It seems a bit of an empty request to ask for feedback and then ignore it. I see this latest proposal as another attempt to steam roll a proposal through without consultation. --Gavin Collins (talk) 11:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Phil asked for comments at least a month ago, all but one were positive in support of this, and now he's seeking to get a more global commentary on this. Since it is still "proposed" I cannot see how this is "steamrolling" "without consultation". --MASEM 12:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
    • I forgot, only positive feedback allowed. Clearly I made a mistake. --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:28, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
      • No one ever said "no negative feedback". However, because there was only one person making negative feedback among all the other positive responses, clearly its appropriate to move it forward to gain wider consensus. Phil's not making it a policy or guideline by magically moving it to WP:FICT, just attempting to spur more positive discussion. --
      • OK, negative feedback is allowed, but it will be ignored. Clearly I have made two mistatakes. --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:38, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
        • Negative feedback is perfectly allowed. However, I think your criticism is off base and does not reflect practical consensus. And I am skeptical of the value of objections that are clearly outside the domain of consensus viewpoints on the project. If you scroll up through past discussions on this, you will find plenty of places where I took criticism under advisement and revised the guideline accordingly. The problem is not with negative feedback - it's just that I think you're dead wrong here. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
          • Three strikes and I am out. I have committed the third deadly sin: offering feedback that is "clearly outside the domain of consensus viewpoints on the project". Gosh if I had known that, I guess I should not have made any comment at all. --Gavin Collins (talk) 15:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
            • Evidence that your viewpoints reflect consensus as it takes place on AfD would be far more helpful than sarcasm. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:21, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
              • I forgot I had to provide evidence that my viewpoint reflects consensus, as well as the other mistakes I have made. I must appologise, as I have really misunderstood your request for comments at the start of this section. Like Oedipus Rex, I ought to pluck my eyes out for making these misakes. --Gavin Collins (talk) 15:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
                • Eesh. You're up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Why don't you come back later and see if you can help us move to an understanding of what the practical consensus is, and how we can describe it. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:34, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
                • Gavin, the process we're trying to build is a compromise. I know from Phil's past inputs that he'd love to see full articles on episodes and characters, but this proposal admits to a compromise that these episodes, in WP's current atmosphere, will never gain wide-scale acceptance. Instead, he's written something that pretty much accurately reflects a mid-point position between "keep them all" and "delete them all" that still follows policy and guidelines with the hint of common sense that WP:IAR provides. Others from either the inclusionists or deletionists side have agreed this is a middle ground. Your input, however, seems to demand that we have to move towards your POV on the way these articles work; that's not a compromise. If everyone else is compromising, and you're not, then just as the internet works around impediments that they may find, so do editors here work around just roadblocks. Your input is useful to remind everyone that notability is still a critical factor, but clearly from community consensus through AFD and RFC, notability is not an absolute as you continue to insist. (if it was, it would be policy, easy as that). There is room for your input into this discussion, but that input has to be towards the goal of compromise. --MASEM 15:44, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
                  • In answer to Phil, it seems to me that you complained bitterly duing the RFC on notability compromise that it did not reflect your viewpoint, even though it was very wide in the range of propositions that it presented. Now I can understand why you don't agree with my views, but if you ask for objections, and you receive one, it seems to me you are duty bound to respond to it in good faith. I think I have been open to compromise, and was one of the first to praise you for the honesty of the proposal when you first put it forward[1]. But if this is to remain a pretence in consultation, then say so now honestly, so I can drop out of the discussion knowing that other editors' views other than your own don't count.--Gavin Collins (talk) 15:57, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
                    • I complained bitterly in the RFC because a proposal based on my input had been twisted to the point where it no longer resembled what I or anyone else had ever put forth, and was then used as a straw man for the actual proposal. This had little to do with the width of proposals being offered, and everything to do with the fact that one of the proposals being offered was ostensibly mine, except without the actual benefit of being thought through.
                    • I confess, I do not see the analogy to your objection, which I responded to in good faith - I think that your objection is in error, because it does not seem to me to be based on anything that seems to me to have wider consensus. I recognize that your view is that WP:N should be applied strictly to all topics. However, A), that view does not appear to me to be borne out on AfD, and B) It is abundantly clear that neither extreme position is going to garner consensus, and that some compromise is needed. I am open to evidence that I am wrong on A. If, however, your position is "no compromise," OK. But that position seems to me incompatible with a consensus driven model, and frankly, I have trouble paying it much heed. It's clear that the community's will on fiction notability is not satisfactory to either extreme camp. Frankly, a failure to appeal to those who refuse any compromise from their preferred vision does not seem to me to speak meaningfully against the notion that the proposal hits practical consensus on the head. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:09, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
• Just to chime in here, I support the new proposal of Phil Sandifer since it reflects the past consensus at various AFD discussions much better than the old WP:FICT guideline. Sjakkalle (Check!) 07:35, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• Personally, once I hear terms like "consensus", "wider consensus", "community consensus ", and "community's will" and now "consensus at various AFD discussions" being used to dismiss objections, alarm bells start ringing, because I think this is a personal presumption, not a universally held truth which some editors imagine, but only exists in their heads and for which there is no obvious or tangible evidence for (or at least none put forward here).
  The problem with dismissing my objections is that there is real consensus (and strong support) for the existing Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and this can be ignored only by pleading that fiction is a special case. Saying that topics that fail Wikipedia inclusion criteria WP:N and content guidelines are allowed if they relate only to fiction seems to me to be a 24-carat example of an "editorial walled garden". Claiming exemption from existing policies and guidelines on the basis of "consensus" (which is actually nothing of the sort other than personal opinion) just won't fly - I am sorry to burst your bubble. Whilst I still welcome Phil's proposal, I don't think ignoring objections is a good faith method of attaining compromise. --Gavin Collins (talk) 12:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• Policies and guidelines are defined by consensus, not the other way around. If a large-scale consensus runs counter to an established guideline, then the guideline gets changed, not consensus. Note that the critical part is "large-scale", emphasizing the need for RFCs and other global input to make sure it's not just a handful of editors confined to a given page. Which is the process that is starting here with the various announcements to boards to get input. --MASEM 12:19, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• Exactly. It is very clear that WP:N, strictly applied, does not accurately describe the decisions that the community routinely makes about fictional subjects. Given the frequency with which AfD pointedly declines to strictly follow existing guidelines even when these guidelines are pointed out, I think it's clear that though the guidelines may have consensus support in the general case (though I think even that statement presents an overly idealistic version of how they came to exist, particularly in the area of notability), they do not enjoy consensus support in this specific application, or else they would be applied in this area instead of routinely ignored by AfD. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Derivative works

I would like to see the notability of derivative works explored. For example, let's say McDonald's produces and distributes toys derived from the latest Pixar movie. Is the toy independent from the movie element? Absolutely. Is McDonalds independent of Pixar? Absolutely. Does the toy have real-world existence? Absolutely.

I believe that an independent, real-world derivative of a fictional element exists should satisfy WP:N at some level. I would like to see this SNG explore how such secondary sources fit into the WP:GNG. Jclemens (talk) 01:04, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The toy is, perhaps, a weak example, but I get your point. The problem is that the independence of officially licensed material is disputed. If you look at the current proposal, though, this division is less of an issue in it than it has been in the past, precisely because independence gets to be a bit of a fuzzy concept at its periphery. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:20, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The independence of licensed material should not be an issue if people are looking at the goals of notability. Luke Skywalker is permanently notable, because aside from the sun going supernova, some alien archaeologist will eventually find multiple indistructable action figures in the world's garbage dumps—even if every electronic storage device is unreadable, even if every paper record has since crumbled to dust. That is not temporary notability. :-) Jclemens (talk) 01:37, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately in a world where intellectual property is becoming more "protected" every year, with new laws and court cases worldwide, all the related products about some fictional topic still covered by copyright (toys produced by indipendent company, "specialized encyclopedias" about the topic, big fan site/wiki/guide, etc.) will soon have to posses some form of "official license" to simple exist... and for very notable (="worth of note") product like blockbuster movie is already so. --Yoggysot (talk) 01:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's a part of what I'd been trying to convey. Your wording is better than mine. Jclemens (talk) 02:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree, but that does not seem to me to reflect a wide consensus view. Again, my strategy on this was to shift the playing field away from trying to define independence. I think this entire issue is, frankly, a non-issue under the current proposal. Phil Sandifer (talk) 02:12, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• • My own position is that, unlike what I thought to be that of Jclemens, I reject the idea that anything in fiction besides the overall work must satisfy WP:N. Absolutely. He and I having now said this, where do we go from here? We will either have nothing, or a compromise. There's no point in pretending the original guideline still has consensus--if it did, we wouldn't be spending so much time at afd on individual articles. DGG (talk) 01:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that summary doesn't entirely do justice to my position. I believe that a fictional element broken out from a notable fiction topic in WP:SS inherits notability--not in the NOT#INHERITED sense, but in the object oriented sense. That is, if the bulk of an article can exist in a major article via WP:NNC, and it can be broken out for readability per WP:SS, then it's really a virtual part of the larger article, included by reference, and uses the main article's notability.

Still, having said that, I'm all in favor of having two good arguments supporting notability. Jclemens (talk) 01:37, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for misunderstanding. Your argument is also a good one--I refer to it as composite notability to avod the confusion of the overuse ofrejecting articles by not-inherited. DGG (talk) 06:16, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• IMO, the answer to the broad question is still no. Emphatically. The broad question being, "Are these derivative works a sign of notability?" A toy, or any other work produced under license, is a promotional vehicle made under contract with the content creator. The fact that Movie Company X has enough money to license derivative works (like toys or kids books) is great, but doesn't mean that anyone outside the company with something to lose has taken an interest in the content. WP:N is a crappy proxy for content inclusion, but the basic idea (that we shouldn't be the first place someone has written about element X) is important here. If the character in question has been made in to a toy--great, but that is just the same as any other promotional scheme. We wouldn't say "Luke Skywalker wouldn't be notable except for the large print ads Lucasfilm ran in Variety about him" so we shouldn't mistake other promotional devices. That said, other derivative works might give us some working idea of notability. Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, arguably, derive their notability partly from the two plays written about them (after Hamlet, of course). Hamlet is very clearly the subject of extensive work, but not all characters in Hamlet should have their own article (as it is difficult to speak about them independently of the play)--for example, The Gravediggers have an article, while Reynaldo does not. Were someone to make a derivative work about Polonius' entourage, we might be able to write a suitably independent article about Reynaldo. I don't think this interpretation is iron-clad. I think that we can be reasonable in judging between derivative works and licensed works to determine independence--e.g. we seem to roughly believe that Scholastic novels/encyclopedias produced for a fictional universe are sufficiently independent from the contracting company--but we should not take the existence of derived work (Especially derived work for hire) as a sign that the subject is notable or might be notable. Protonk (talk) 03:42, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

So, then, if fictional work B (e.g., Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead) makes use of elements (the named characters) from work A (Hamlet), work B supports the notability of A? I like the idea, but it would have to be proportional to the reputation (be that notability, difficulty of production, or some other measure) of B, wouldn't it? Unless we want fan fiction supporting the notability of fan films... I'd like to hear more about how this might work with more contemporary fictional works? Would Splinter of the Mind's Eye support notability for Star Wars (assuming for the sake of argument that it needed it)? Jclemens (talk) 04:32, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily suggesting what I wrote should be the test. I was just showing some of the hazards of substituting things that aren't notability for notability. IMO, WP:N has always been a means to the end of NPOV/NOR/V--the best way to ensure that we cover subject matter in proper proportion and without engaging in original research is to summarize third party works on a subject. There isn't a good way to substitute that with some other metric, unfortunately. That leaves us with the five finger test of death for this SNG versus leaving out swaths of content somewhat arbitrarily (if we applied WP:N strictly, we would be SOL for most fictional content and what is left would be stuff covered in coffee table books or gender studies texts). With respect to my specific note, I think that we need to speak at the character level and we need to treat "notability" as a binary state. It is easier for us to write about Rosencrantz because he has been looked at fictionally from so many angles and those works of fiction (including his place in them) have been studied so closely. It is harder, largely, to do so for a character like Token. If someone were to take token and parody South Park in another work, a reviewer of that parody work would be more likely to make some real world or analogistic claims about Token--rather than a more typical short form review of a work which would cover characters only briefly. I hope that makes sense. Protonk (talk) 05:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

protonk, even by your argument, there is likely to be such discussion, and one should not summarily reject articles without thoroughly searching for it. Part of the problem here -- and I think we can all agree on at least this -- is the informality and scattered nature of potential sources for such works, and the difficult of finding them. At least I think them difficult, for I do not have the familiarity with sources and reference tools that I have with more traditional fiction. But considering the amount that is written about video drama, there ought to be just such sources. Now, you'll say we should expand the article when we find them, but I think we should keep the material and the article or at least the intact section in the expectation of finding them. (And I think the present proposal's discussion of these matters a considerable step forward.) I am not likely to change my general view here, and I doubt that you are either--and similarly for the other people with strong positions on these matters. So how do you suggest we resolve this? I have long suggested that if you will accept separate articles on major figures in such shows, I'll accept combined ones for the minor characters. DGG (talk) 06:23, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's a larger argument. My point in this section is to say that we can't take the existence of derivative works (especially those made under contract) as a sign that independent sources exist on a subject. You are absolutely right to say that sourcing is spotty at best. Among fictional works, coverage in reliable sources is spotty and especially within works, what is covered by third parties is arbitrary with respect to the interal fictional narrative. In other words, Boba Fett is more heavily covered by third party sources than the Trade Federation, though the latter is more significant in the star wars universe. I'm not sure how to answer the big question--that's why I withdrew from the RfC discussion. Protonk (talk) 06:48, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

DGG's changes

Let's discuss the merits of this one I think the proposed general principles are very sound, but that the proposal is worded a little too prescriptively, and relies in some places a little too much upon disputed guidelines and policy wording. Purely as a practical matter, we are more likely to get agreement if we leave a good deal of ambiguity. At this point I think we can tolerate that in order to make some progress. I am about to make a number of changes not as bold as what Phil has done, but in the hope of avoiding quarrels at this point. I'll explain them them here in a short while. DGG (talk) 01:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

first group of changes: Section 1.1, Four pronged test, #1. "concise" means whatever one wants it to mean. Many combination articles have just meaningless hooks, which are inappropriate non-encyclopedic program-guide content. : "Mary goes to the party and strange things happen" (invented extreme example to illustrate my meaning). Others are ridiculously verbose. Similarly, material on plot can be often discussed best as relates to the characters, especially in continuing series--but should still not be duplicated. We need to provide for a variety of contingencies.DGG (talk) 01:34, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree in general, though I've shortened your wording here and merged with the previous paragraph. That said, we should remember that this is not the predominant guideline in this area - we have WP:WAF, WP:SUMMARY, and WP:PLOTSUM all of which are better suited to this specific discussion. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:38, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

next, section 1.3, "Importance" this needs to be qualified for chronological and cultural biases. (I didnt forget section 1.2 -- I think its fine as is.) DGG (talk) 01:41, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

A fair point, though in the interests of avoiding creep, I think a simple reference to the biases section is preferable to a restatement. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:42, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Section 1.4, availability of real world ... I broadened the language a little. I also added a phrase about sourcing, which remains the most imoprotant factor here as always. (I'm going to take a break before continuing--I leave it to you, Phil, how to integrate changes) DGG (talk) 01:44, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

These mostly look good. As I said, I've made a few tinkers, but I think you're mostly smoothing out rough edges. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:47, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

My initial problem is with 1.2. There are a lot of "review sites" out there that will review every single episode of a show, but most of the stuff that they discuss is fluff. It never really analyzes the episode, and I think using that fluff to say that something must be important is rather baseless. Anyone ever read a review from BuddyTV or TVSquad, they're usually good for a laugh, but rarely provide anything valuable (yet I'm seeing them more and more as fluff for articles, "Reviewer X thought episode Y was the best of the season." - no actual context to that statement and when you read the review, you see that there wasn't anything there to use as context) I also see this as turning into "Well, there's a DVD commentary so it must mean that it deserves its own page". If anyone has ever watched/listened to a DVD commentary, you'll know that you don't always have a lot of encyclopedic information there. Granted, I know that these "4 prongs" are supposed to work together, but all of them are so subjective you could easily side-step each one. I say a plot is complex and needs the extra space, I see that there is a DVD commentary for this episode in my box set (though, there isn't anything encyclopedic discussed about the episode), the show itself has been on the air for 2 years which means that it wasn't canceled immediately and must be important, and my real world information is the fact that I can name the writers, directors, and tell you where they filmed the episode. That's not strong evidence in any of the four prongs, but, I've managed to show you how all are at least weakly satisfied. I can easily argue that since I provided and explanation, no matter how weak, for all four sections that the article MUST be kept. I've seen editors reach so far into left field to support the notion that the topic is "important" and "notable" that it's slightly scary that they actually believe what they are saying. I think this guideline does a good job of breaking down the differences among article topics (episode, character, etc) and common practice as well as common misconceptions...I just think that 4 pronged list could be tightened up a bit more.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:04, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you on is cast/crew information - I'll go ahead and mention that those are not adequate for establishing real-world perspective. I'm less convinced on the DVD commentaries and on websites like BuddyTV and TVSquad. I pulled something up at random from BuddTV - [2] - and while it is indeed fluffy, there's definitely stuff there that could be used in creating an article on the character. I'll try to spruce that section up a bit, however, and note that we really want more than just a thumbs up/thumbs down sort of discussion of reviews. Phil Sandifer (talk) 03:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

There - I added a paragraph to #4 that I think deals with your objections, and another to the intro of the four-pronged test. I'm sure we'll still get zealous people trying to treat this as a checklist where, when all four are addressed, the article is automatically safe, but at least now the guideline gives ammunition to be used to shoot such attempts down. Phil Sandifer (talk) 04:05, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say they were all bad, but I think there should be emphasis on identifying the "fluff" and discouraging its use. I rarely see any policy/guideline or even FAC (because there seems to be a serious rush to get some of these articles to FA status) articulate the need for context. Vague, non-descriptive claims about an episode, its articles, storyline, etc are a start, but without the context to know exactly why a reviewer felt this way even they will boil down to just fluff for the article. I like your additions, and I think they do just what you said, which is basically have editors provide some real substance to the article instead of passing off skim milk as whole milk.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 04:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Recommendations for the proposal

In regard to this new proposal, I think it might help the proposal achieve acceptance if more examples (of both articles which do exist and should, and don't exist and shouldn't) were provided throughout the page. It would also make the proposal easier to understand. I think we may be able to have this proposal accepted as a guideline, but I would need further interpretation of it (in the form of such examples) to be certain of my preference. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 08:47, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with Metropolitan90 - it is too easy to get into purely abstract reasoning unless we apply the rules to obvious examples. Lets start with the example of List of minor Power Rangers characters which was the subject of a recent AfD debate. Is this a good or bad article/list under the prosed guideline? --Gavin Collins (talk) 12:14, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• That's sort of an off-base question. The goal of this guideline is to construct a guideline that mirrors what AfD has been doing in the absence of a guideline - that is, to describe current consensus. So yes - the guideline would, I think, produce the same result as AfD in that case. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:03, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll work on providing them. I want to be careful, because such examples fly closer to "OTHERCRAPEXISTS" than I am wholly comfortable with, and seem to me to suggest making such comparisons. But I'll work on trying to make it more concrete without inviting such approaches. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:28, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• I did not follow your reason for voting against deletion in the AfD debate, even though this lists fails the verification requirement. Can you explain why you think List of minor Power Rangers characters should be kept in a little more detail? --Gavin Collins (talk) 15:55, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• As a the reasonable compromise between individual articles on the characters and no coverage that it is. But this is rather off-topic, no? Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:01, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• So explain how the guideline would work in this circumstance. --Gavin Collins (talk) 16:03, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• The guideline supports merging individual articles upwards to list articles, much like the community. It does not attempt to answer the general question of notability and lists, which seems to be what you're asking. As it stands, however, these upward merges are routine and minimally contentious. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:18, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• And in the case of List of minor Power Rangers characters, how should WP:FICT be a applied? Should it be kept, merged with a more notable topic or deleted? --Gavin Collins (talk) 16:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• WP:FICT does not try to deal with the question of list articles. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:10, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• Although you are under no obligation to discuss examples, it is going to be hard to make progress on this proposal if it cannot be applied to practical examples. --Gavin Collins (talk) 12:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

A hard-line approach

Most of the current proposal has been written with the assumption that most fiction articles deserve to be in Wikipedia. I'd like to propose a position in line with the notability standards for other articles.

• Works of fiction are notable only if there is substantial third-party material about them in reliable sources, such as newspapers, magazines, or academic journals. This does not include simple inclusion in lists or indices. (This is Wikipedia's standard definition of notability.)
• Characters in fiction are notable only if there is substantial third-party material about them in reliable sources, such as newspapers, magazines, or academic journals, and the character appears in more than one work.
• Individual episodes of serial works are generally not notable.
• Minor components of fictional works (fictional places, devices, etc.) are notable only if there is substantial third-party material about them in reliable sources, such as newspapers, magazines, or academic journals, and if the item appears in more than one work.
• "Spinout" articles are discouraged.
• Short stories within collections are not individually notable unless there is substantial third-party material about the individual story in reliable sources, such as newspapers, magazines, or academic journals.

That's more in line with Wikipedia's notability standards on other subjects. There's been a drift toward inclusion of too much detail about fiction in Wikipedia, and we need to tighten up standards. There's a place for fancruft, but it's Wikia, not Wikipedia. --John Nagle (talk) 18:14, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

... except that AfD consensus does not reflect these outcomes. Rather than characterizing it as assuming that most fiction articles deserve to be in Wikipedia, it's more NPOV to assert that this proposal reflects typical AfD outcomes. Jclemens (talk) 18:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

How so? Unless I'm missing something, it seems pretty in-line with AfD outcomes and several project guidelines and consensus decisions (except the first, which FICT generally has nothing to do with with as there are specific guidelines for more types of fiction). -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 19:26, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Full_House_characters is one I recently participated in. The article was kept with most !voters asserting notability of the show without reference to the presence or lack of secondary sources. They just "knew" it was notable. Jclemens (talk) 19:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. The hard-line proposal has been pushed for months now with little success, as has the alternative hardline proposal of more radical inclusion. It is clear that neither has any sort of consensus, principled or practical. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:08, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Look, I don't agree with john. It is clear that jclemens has the right answer: current practice doesn't reflect a strict application of WP:N to fiction articles. But it isn't that far from it. I don't have data on this, but the AfD's that I see basically fall into two categories: either some third party material mentions the characters (even trivially) or none do. For the latter, they are almost all redirected, merged or deleted. For the former, they are usually kept (though not as universally as the latter are deleted). I also don't think it is fair to reject john's view as "radical" (and therefore ignore it). Plenty of people expressed some flavor of the view above (including myself) at the WP:N RfC and we would be remiss in rewriting FICt without acknowledging that. Protonk (talk) 19:24, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's radical as such. I freely acknowledge that there's a substantial bloc that supports strict notability. There's also a substantial bloc that supports all episodes and characters. I suspect the two blocs are of roughly equal size, all told. In any case, I think the current proposal does acknowledge what you say, no? Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:35, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Part of the challenge with John's position is that it seems to present a more narrow view of WP:RS than WP:RS does. I don't see the need to restate RS here, nor understand the need to limit RS to "newspapers, magazines, or academic journals". Jclemens (talk) 19:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that part of john's claim doesn't hold up. Protonk (talk) 19:48, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:RS says "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." That usually boils down to newspapers, journals, and academic sources. Books that aren't self-published also qualify. Refereed online journals and reviews from respected review sources qualify, but most web sources do not. For major fictional works (Tolkien, Harry Potter, etc.) such sources exist. For fiction that's never had a serious review, there's not much Wikipedia can say about it. --John Nagle (talk) 22:10, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

You have identified one of the vast silly portions of our sourcing policy. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

It's not "silly". That's the way almost everything else on Wikipedia is edited. I've edited on some controversial subjects, where anything that doesn't have a citation to a published source will be challenged and deleted. In the early days of Wikipedia, editors weren't held to that standard, but today it's routine. In the last two years, citation standards have been raised considerably. Wikipedia articles today are cited like academic papers. Fiction articles need to come up to that standard. If you just want to write fancruft, there's Wikia. --John Nagle (talk) 03:14, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Hahahahaha. Cited like academic papers? Cited like academic papers? I promise you, as someone who has written multiple published peer-reviewed academic papers on pop culture subjects, the sourcing standards on Wikipedia bear no resemblance whatsoever to academic papers. Phil Sandifer (talk) 03:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess, Phil, what I'm saying is that there (hopefully) is a bloc that says "WP:N helps us ensure NOR/NPOV/NOT are met better than any competing standard, but brings some significant collateral damage WRT fictional subjects". I'm in that bloc. I think that your proposal is better than others, but I'm not sure I'm onboard yet. Protonk (talk) 19:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

An underlying statement to all this is the issue of exactly, with respect to "Wikipedia is a combination of general and specialized encyclopedia", what our cover of fiction should be. We know it is not "having each character in a separate article" (that was back about 2+ years ago and has since reverted) but it is also clear that we cannot leave out the in-universe aspects of the work. The goalposts for fiction coverage between "a lot" and "none" is condensing every iteration, and while we'd love to be exact, flexibility within the guidelines is needed. If we were to line up all the various fields and how they are covered, again with the same end points of "alot" and "none", we'd want each field to fall within the same zone - not the same line - though by necessity in some fields larger coverage may be appropriate while less for other fields. --MASEM 19:40, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with John Nagle, as it is congruent with WP:N, which Phil's proposal is trying to work around. Since notability is the starting point for topic inclusion, I think we must start by recognising this in WP:FICT. The opening statement that "No hard and fast rule regarding the notability of fictional subjects has found wide consensus" is just too contraversial a statement, when in reality there is a general consensus that if a topic has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article. --Gavin Collins (talk) 13:07, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Claimed AfD consensus

When we speak about emulating current practice with this guideline, I think we should be precise. What AfD's are we mining for data on the subject? How many (to pick a sample) of TTN's AfD's were closed with the subject article being retained in a stand-alone fashion? Looking at http://toolserver.org/~sql/afd.php?user=TTN I can see that roughly 77% of his nominations caught by the tool have been redirected or deleted. That's not a random sample, as TTN is more discerning than people give him credit for, but we should think about that. Of those 77% which were redirected, which would have been kept under this guideline? I'm not saying that what we deleted due to TTN's noms should become the standard for inclusion. What I'm saying here is that appealing to a "consensus of practice" at AfD must present some compelling data.

Likewise, I'm seeing some debate above about list articles or merger targets. I don't want us to assume that because we want to merge characters (or episodes) into list articles that we necessarily want those list articles to be kept. The deletion policy demands that we take the lowest impact route with regards to deletion of content--if we can upmerge something we usually do. That being said, there are plenty of fictional works that don't have support for a character list. Lost of books, movies, and games exist that have largely formulaic characters that no source (semi-reliable or otherwise) has spent a significant amount of time on. Imagine a List of minor characters in World of Warcraft or List of non-speaking characters in Rocky V or something like that. List of characters exist where a consensus can exist to delete the list even though consensus can exist to merge items to it.

Just two points that I saw above which I figured should be clarified. Protonk (talk) 19:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

On lists, I do not take this proposal to make any strong claims on list articles. It's not been something that's been debated much, and with 55% on the RFC saying lists should be exempted from the GNG, it's something that I think we're at the start of a debate over, not the end. Certainly, given the 55% support for an outright exemption from the GNG (which seems too extreme for me - I think there's clear consensus for a weaker standard, but not an exemption from notability), I think there's a compromise to be forged here. But I think this is a debate that is starting, whereas the larger notability questions are something that it is long overdue that we come to some sort of consensus on. I'll look at your 77% question in a bit. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

That's fair. I didn't want to say that claims about lists are made by the proposal but that we are basing claims about practice at AfD on our tendency to push characters to lists. Protonk (talk) 20:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Which does seem to be the case. And I suspect that lists are going to be the next big front in the inclusionism/deletionism debate. But honestly, I don't think anyone has come up with any good proposals for lists yet. I'm certainly hard-pressed to come up with a good way to quantify "We allow lists of things we wouldn't allow full articles of, but we don't allow lists of just anything" in a good sense. But I think it's relatively non-controversial to note that our list inclusion policies are laxer, and that there is often a consensus to merge non-notable articles into a list. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:41, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

OK. I've looked at a few of the TTN deletions. Now, a caveat - I did not design this proposal to allow automatic decisions on fiction notability. The proposal says to weigh factors, and any weighing is going to be subjective and debatable. That said, based on the proposal, here's what I see:

I can find articles that, to my mind, I would have voted keep on if this proposal had been the operative guideline. Ulala, which was nominated in this form: [3] springs to mind - I think the appearance over multiple games that are not even in one series, and the design controversy section there gives enough basis that I would have been inclined to keep the article and allow it a chance to develop. (Not that it was a good article - just that it seemed to me to have the potential to be a good article.)

There are also borderline cases. Meta Knight, nominated in this form: [4] is over-long, badly organized, and full of in-universe trivia. I suspect, however, that the decision on the whole is wrong - that is, I suspect the article could be sourced, and I could quickly find evidence to this effect.

On the other extreme, there are some keeps that I think are unjustifiable. Dwayne Wayne fails this guideline utterly, to my mind, and should have been deleted or merged.

But I mostly did not find anything in TTN's AFDs that seems to me to go against this guideline. A few aberrant cases, but I think they are indeed abberant, and go both ways. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:47, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• Most of the noms and closes would run afoul of the "sourcing" section of the proposal. The same would be true of most of the Warhammer 40,000 deletions. Protonk (talk) 20:52, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand - are you saying that many of the deleted articles would, in your mind, satisfy this proposal, or that the sourcing section of the proposal would still cause most of them to be deleted? Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:54, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm saying that it appears to me that a non-trivial number (again, I can't give data because FICT isn't a bright line guideline) of TTN's nominations (to pick one subset) and the deletions of Warhammer material (to [pick another) would have been kept if we could use sources that were less than independent or less than reliable. I can give specific examples of sources for Warhammer easily (though the explanation is laborious). Protonk (talk) 21:01, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Pointing to an example, whether in TTN's stuff or Warhammer, might be helpful. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure thing. I'll try to generally explain the Warhammer issue, because one example describes almost every AfD in that subject area. Warhammer 40,000 is a tabletop wargame produced by Games Workshop. Games Workshop (GW) realized early on that vertical and horizontal integration was the way to go for making these games. They bought the miniatures, the company that makes the fabs for the miniatures, the distribution sites (for a while they owned most of the big "hobby" stores in the states) and the printed material. They own (lock stock and barrel) the publishing company that produces their fictionalized spinoffs (novels and comic books) as well as the company that produces the "game guide" and "companion" literature--the game has a complex set of rules and encyclopedic knowledge of those rules is critical to play. As such, a player is better off knowing rules about the game in general and their army in particular. GW sells "codexes" (their word) for each army and so has an incentive (and excercises it) to make each codex necessary for advanced play. A look at possible canon sources is available here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Warhammer 40,000/References. Those sources can provide published, verified information distinct from (strictly) PLOT and GAMEGUIDE information and were used to build a massive walled garden of articles on fictional subjects within that universe. However, those sources are examples of what the "independent" part of WP:N was written in for. Since GW makes money from the publication of texts and the sale of figurines, they have amassed a huge corpus of work on fictional elements which have received close to zero outside attention from reliable sources. To pick a few AfDs:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emperor of Mankind (Warhammer 40,000)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dark Angels (Warhammer 40,000)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eldar Gods (Warhammer 40,000)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Astronomican

There are literally >60 others with much the same arguments. Those articles were deleted because WP:N allows the categorical rejection of a sourcebook like Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader as an "independent source". I'm not saying the current proposal would reverse all of those (or that such a reversal would necessarily be a bad thing), but that a move on that front runs afoul of some "consensus in practice" as well as some expressed feelings from members of the community. However, I agree that something better than WP:N is needed (broken record here). Even for 40K, most of the "main" fictional elements could be deleted if WP:N were applied strictly--that would hurt the encyclopedia. But at the same time, those AfDs would have been more confusing and nightmarish if the criteria for judgement of sources were more subjective.

One example that I can think of where current practice matched this guideline is the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Horus Heresy discussion. That article needed to stay and did, mostly because people familiar with the subject matter knew when to abandon hard-line rules (guess I'm patting myself on the head there). But a lot of the deletions affirmed the position that many people felt the GNG applied to these articles. An embarrasing number appealed to the defunct FICT as well...sigh.

I guess we should be careful looking back at past AfDs to see if the current proposal would generate similar outcomes. For one, this proposed guideline is considerably more subjective than the GNG. It is easier to claim "So and So is an important part of this important work of fiction, therefore don't delete" then it is to claim "here are sources X, Y, Z." Economy of debate aside, this muddies comparisons. I guess my point is that we have generally kept character or element articles where sourcing (as WP:RS defines it) exist and not kept them where sourcing doesn't exist. Insofar as this proposal expands that, we more further from claiming that FICT supports current practice. Protonk (talk) 21:42, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, we're into some pretty arcane points of technicalness here, but I, at least, would feel that for a game like Warhammer, the medium is game, and thus the rulebooks are primary source texts, not secondary source texts. The situation would be, to me, analagous to using the Monster Manual as a secondary source on D&D races, and equally unacceptable. So I think that the issue there is that we're failing to clear primary source. But that might need to be clarified in the proposal. I'll have a look later tonight and see if I can tighten the language on that point. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:19, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The analogy to the monster manual is a very good one. Perhaps something more tractable is this: White Dwarf (magazine) is a publication produced by GW which has been (sort of) a supplemental sourcebook, font of creator commentary, and source of general news. I have no problem using it to source claims in articles but I would be leery of using it to establish notability. That's probably a better example of a source in the twilight between WP:N's rigorous exclusion and this guideline's more nuanced take. Is it "independent enough"? Would it exhaust or derail an AfD to focus on that discussion? Protonk (talk) 22:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that's probably something that has to be done on AfD, as exhausting as it is. My sense of White Dwarf is that some coverage in it is useless, and other coverage in it is substantial enough to be of use to us in determining notability. So it becomes a case where careful decision making is needed, whether that is exhausting or not. Phil Sandifer (talk) 23:09, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The problem we have here is that we would be stating that a company must shoot itself in the foot to have its products featured comprehensively in wikipedia. It makes perfect business sense for GW to have done what it did, to own all aspects of the market. Originally, WD covered all wargaming (and some roleplaying) products, and was already on route (as I understand it) to be the market leading publication in this area. I know of only one smaller regular publication in the UK on wargaming, and because WD is so large, this publication avoids most of the GW product line - not because it isn't notable, but because coverage is already provided. A similar situation exists to a certain extent with D&D and the WotC Dragon and Dungeon publications. Similarly, how is owning your own publishing division that much different from an established publisher producing works within your fictional universe? We need to be careful here of 'independence bias' - when a notable-to-the-public niche is so thoroughly covering itself that third parties would not see the market value in more than just a passing mention. Similarly, when talking about sourcing, the classic systematic biases become serious issues. We have seen in the past extremely notable shows from the 1960's and the like nominated for deletion simply because there does not exist a modern buzz around the show. I've seen people happily nominate the national sporting teams of non-english, less-online speaking countries (although less so recently, thankfully). LinaMishima (talk) 13:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

They haven't shot themselves in the foot. To the extent that their products are covered in third party sources they should be covered here. The only way that GW coverage of 40K through company organs reduces outside coverage is that they (like most other companies in that business) jealously guard their intellectual property and would object to a printed "guide" on 40K. As far as the "publishing division" being owned by GW goes...I'm not sure how this is difficult to see. GW dictates the scope of the fictionalized and informational coverage produced by their in-house publishing company. Works made there are effectively works for hire. We cannot and should not use those works to make editorial decisions for an encyclopedia. If our job is to reflect third party sourcing, we can't let that reflection be distorted by paid works. Protonk (talk) 20:00, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I see your point regarding works for hire. However, consider the situation the other leading UK wargames magazine is in (if it is still around). Currently, a very small percentage base of their readers follow GW products, and WD is highly popular amongst GW fans who are often exclusively GW fans. As such, increasing their coverage of GW products in line with the actual following within the total market would be uneconomical for them, so they continue to provide minimal coverage. This in turn could well mean that the other third party products covered by the leading magazine would be considered more notable by wikipedia's guidelines (due to more third party coverage), despite GW owning most of the actual market. I don't think it is an issue here in this specific case, but this is a problem to keep in mind. LinaMishima (talk) 21:32, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I think one thing we need to be careful of, with regard to AfD, is when a page is kept because there was a rash of fans that came in with "Keep" votes. I know that AfDs are not about "voting", but I've seen too many closed both keep and delete because there was a huge number of people that came in and simply overran the page with votes and the closing Admin didn't actually bother to read the reasoning behind the choice. To be frank, the AfD system is flawed on both sides, and I think citing it as a way to see "community practice" is extremely difficult to support. I think it's been said that, if not then I'm saying it now, you can have two articles of a different topic but with the same level of notability establish (or...in this case a lack thereof). They both go through the AfD process, but one is kept and the other is deleted. Different sets of editors think different ways, and one topic might be more popular among a group of editors than another, which is the only reason it was saved. It's like the saying in the medical field, go to 5 different psychiatrists with the same symptoms and you're likely to get 5 different diagnoses. I think we really need to be careful when we're citing AfDs, one way or there other.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:28, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

True. It's more accurate to say that I based this on looking at what reasons often seemed persuasive on AfD, not trying to statistically map results. AfD does produce abberant results from time to time, but its reasoning is usually fairly consistent over time. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• I think the statement that this proposal is based on consensus at AfD does not stand up to reasonable scruitiny. Firstly, no evidence has been presented to suppor this case - it is a spurious claim. Secondly, the evidence at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Fictional characters/archive shows that there is no hard and fast rule about AfD debates. Most of nominations end in redirects and mergers (a soft form of deletion) rather than deletion, but regardless of outcome, it is clear that many articles about ficitonal characters do get nominated for deletion for many different reasons, but mainly WP:ILIKEIT is the most obvious argument made in their defense. I think we collectively need to drop the pretense that our individual personal view reflect consensus and is somehow superior to everyone else's, when in fact they are our own (but none the worse for that). --Gavin Collins (talk) 13:17, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikia has a whole wiki just for Warhammer.[5]. That's where the detail should go. All Wikipedia needs is some introductory information and some properly sourced external commentary. There's probably no need for more than one Warhammer-related article on Wikipedia. --John Nagle (talk) 06:04, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

The existance or otherwise of an off-wikipedia 'home' for a subject should not effect how wikipedia judges inclusion. LinaMishima (talk) 13:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

If it doesn't meet WP:N, it's out of here. I'm pointing out that there's a place for such things, but not on Wikipedia. --John Nagle (talk) 04:51, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Preserving via merge

Why doesn't this article discuss questions of WP:PRESERVE and WP:MERGE? Also, the current wording in "A note of caution" indicates that in an AFD, if the nominator didn't try to improve the article first, the article perhaps should be procedurally kept? --Malkinann (talk) 20:47, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Why should the nominator be obligated to "try to improve the article first"? -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 20:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Malkinann is saying that the nominator should. I'm certainly not. :) Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm just trying to clarify some things in my own mind... and hopefully in the text too. ;) See below response. --Malkinann (talk) 21:24, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I would not support procedural keeps in that circumstance, and I do not think the guideline encourages them. If there's language that suggests to you that it does, let me know and I'll have a look at it. It doesn't cite PRESERVE and MERGE because there are limits to the number of policy pages I know off the top of my head, and those fell outside it. I'll work mention of both in. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

When I was saying procedural keep, I was drawing from my experience of the ArbCom. My logic went if part of the AFD procedure is to mandate improvement before nominating for deletion, then if an editor fails to do so, it's against procedure, and so the article may be procedurally kept?? --Malkinann (talk) 21:24, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I like how you've put in the preserve stuff, but I think that as lists are encouraged, and merging is often how those lists are formed, that there should be much more detail on merging under the "Caution" heading, especially on how to make sure that merging meets the GFDL requirements. --Malkinann (talk) 21:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't feel like duplicating other guidelines is really necessary here - that way lies instruction creep. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:19, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think what I'm proposing is instruction creep, but instead is instruction exposure - the part I want to include (that you must link articles that are merged in your edit summaries) is from the GFDL itself. --Malkinann (talk) 22:40, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I think mandating WP:BEFORE is the nuclear option of deletion debates. The deletionist response is attempting to write in a speedy deletion criteria for unsourced articles. neither will gain consensus. Protonk (talk) 20:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. The practical compromise in use on this issue seems to me to be to allow nominations in good faith, to chastise people for nominations that are ill-considered, and to err on the side of keeping articles that can be improved. But not to mandate improvement before deletion. For one thing, plenty of articles can't be improved. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Why shouldn't WP:BEFORE be mandated in some form? At the very least, I think that a "no sources" or "fails GNG" nom should not be made without at least a cursory search for sources. It's not as if Googling is particularly hard; AfD's exist to destroy content, so expecting due dilligence from the nominator doesn't seem odious in my mind. I've seen some horrendously bad nom's from some good editors that would have been caught by a search and saved both face and effort. Jclemens (talk) 21:34, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Because, as Phil says right above, the current practice deals with this. Mandating sourcing or searching places a burden on the vast majority of nominators (who do so in good faith) and wouldn't provide anything other than a technical "violation" for bad-faith nominators. It isn't likely to stop disruption and it isn't likely to change outcomes (in other words, bad faith/irresponsible noms are usually kept anyway, either at AfD or DRV). Protonk (talk) 21:44, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Is it neccessary to do "before nominating an article for deletion" - ie to follow the instructions there, or is it neccessary to "do so" (ie. improve the article) before nominating an article for deletion? --Malkinann (talk) 22:48, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Breaking out a subject from a list

What would I do if I wanted to go about breaking out one character or episode from a list to give it its own article? Would I have to prove all four of these criteria in a consensus or just the last one on real-world perspective? --Malkinann (talk) 21:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

You would have to establish at least some argument for all four. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:20, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

If it's a major character of the work with critical commentary, can it be assumed that some narrative complexity is at play? How far should WP:IMPERFECT go if I wanted to break out an article from a list? --Malkinann (talk) 22:27, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I would think that critical commentary by its nature provides some evidence for narrative complexity. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

notability of a character list article?

What are the "appropriate standards of notability" for a character list article? --Malkinann (talk) 21:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I was deliberately vague there, as that is still a contested point. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:14, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The way it's worded suggests to me that there are some "appropriate standards of notability", and that they're more or less agreed upon. --Malkinann (talk) 22:25, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm open to better suggestions. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What about "When dealing with character articles that have been created, there is often consensus to merge them into list articles, although as much information satisfying the four pronged test above as possible should be included to help demonstrate the list's notability." ?? Bit wordy? --Malkinann (talk) 22:43, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

My take on it: When a) The list of characters is from a notable work or series of works of fiction, and b) when it makes sense to break the characters out because b.1) it reduces duplication in multiple articles or b.2) it helps improve the size or readability of the article(s) from which the character list is broken out. Jclemens (talk) 22:47, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah now that's a different kettle of fish - I was thinking of when lists are sewn together from character articles, but this is the opposite approach, spinning out a character list from a series article. --Malkinann (talk) 22:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Both occur I think, but yours more often, as that's generally what I see as well. --Izno (talk) 00:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Constructing it from a list of separate character articles or breaking it out from a main article is all the same, in my mind. I don't really see a difference in desired outcome, just in inertia--that is, those who like separate character articles will want them to stay and likely argue for that outcome. Jclemens (talk) 04:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

use of primary sources for citing production staff

While this may not be directly related, I believe that for use of noting production staff that the item itself, or in the case of games or video, a manual should be able to suffice. While this doesn't show notability, the manuals, except in the rare spelling mistake, do list everyone for most works what would be WP:N], whereas such review sites or others may not list anyone. While it's not important to know every person in the process, knowing the lead musician in a game is generally considered someone of note if the music is praised (or alternatively bashed), though his name may not be mentioned in such articles.じんない 02:37, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone seriously questioned the use of primary sources for this? Phil Sandifer (talk) 03:04, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with phil here. Also remember that this is trying to be a rough inclusion guideline, not a rule delimiting content. Protonk (talk) 03:24, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

not recently, but a while back when talking on Star Ocean, it was highly discouraged to use them for listing stuff like that. Basically they said it was only good if a second independent source could be used as well to verify for more than anything other than a short-term use, such as when creating a new article.じんない 22:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Primary sources are the best source for this, unless contradicted with explanation for the difference in a secondary source, or a secondary source offers additional commentary on this point. If one wishes to state a fact that is obvious without interpretation within a primary source, going to a secondary source for this exact same information only introduces potential errors (hence why I state that secondary sources only override primary if they explain why they do - a lot of secondary sources have contained errors!). However a secondary source might also contain more detail on a point, which could be of further use and so justify using a secondary source for the statement if you are also wishing to introduce such details. LinaMishima (talk) 13:53, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Just a note

I'm driving for 12 hours tomorrow (Tuesday) to my Thanksgiving destination, so I will not be active in this discussion until Tuesday night or, more likely, Wednesday morning. Phil Sandifer (talk) 04:36, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Some thoughts

It makes for a good userspace essay. It's too long to be a guideline. The text, by my count, (including the nutshell, minus the hatnotes, the table of contents, the See also section) is 3,310 words. Keep it simple. Very simple. Could it be said in 500 words? Could it be said in fewer words in multiple guidelines? Fiction is a big topic. Category:Fiction contains over 28% of the articles on Wikipedia. There are already notability guidelines for books and films. Does fiction really need to be grouped all together? How would this proposed guideline be applied to actual articles? For example, the articles Edward Cullen (Twilight), Bella Swan, Jacob Black, and List of Twilight characters.

The survey I wrote, which you said was too long Phil, was 2,382 words (2,576 if you include the instructions) — and much of that text is just a repetition of a few phrases for clarity (since the questions would be appearing on subpages). I still think we should get input from the wider community and not just the same ten or twenty names. It's no surprise by now that the same names keep nominating articles relating to fiction for deletion and the same names keep arguing to keep the article or try to improve the articles within a five-day time frame. If you don't like that survey, trim it down, edit it until it's a survey you do like, anyone, please, this is a wiki afterall.

The GNG does *not* state "that an article on a topic should have significant coverage in reliable, secondary sources." "Significant coverage in reliable, secondary sources" is evidence of notability. That's all. Evidence of notability. But that is not the only evidence of notability. Radiant! wrote WP:N because the phrase "non-notable" was commonly used in AFDs. So he figured there seemed to be a certain level of notability that topics needed to have in order for the article to avoid being deleted. Writing WP:N was a bad idea. If the phrase "lame" was commonly used in AFDs, that doesn't mean there should be a guideline saying topics should be "cool", that there seemed to be a certain threshold of "coolness" topics need to meet. After N was written, Wikipedia:Fiction was renamed Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) after this proposal to rename at WT:N. Perhaps this guideline should be renamed back to Wikipedia:Fiction. Maybe it should remain named Wikipedia:Notability (fiction).

In order to write a guideline about evidence of notability for fictional topics, we can have a survey to find out what the community considers evidence of notability for fictional works, fictional characters, etc. Mickey Mouse is not notable for having "significant coverage in reliable, secondary sources." Mickey Mouse receives "significant coverage in reliable, secondary sources" because Mickey Mouse is notable. The notability comes before the coverage. People cover Mickey Mouse because they feel Mickey Mouse is worthy of notice, worthy of their attention. In that way, "significant coverage in reliable, secondary sources" is evidence of notability. But why is Mickey Mouse notable? Maybe that's the wrong question. What is Mickey Mouse notable for?

Speaking of what happens at AFD, here are all the List of*episode AFDs I could find and also all the List of*character AFDs I could find (I looked two weeks ago so it is out of date):

/List of characters AFDs

/List of episodes AFDs

Perhaps everyone could answer "What is the purpose of this guideline?" and some common ground could be found. I think this guideline is here so people can learn what other people consider evidence of notability for fictional topics. And I think a survey is an obvious way to determine what constitutes that evidence. --Pixelface (talk) 05:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

(More of a technical note: I suggest userspacing or subpage those lists - 30k onto this talk page starts weighing it down, but please link to them back here)

This guideline only deals with elements of fiction, not works thereof, thus it doesn't attempt to group movies, books, tv shows, etc, into a unifying guideline, only the characters, episodes, and other details of them. Now, you could argue is a movie character should be treated the same way as a tv show character, and you can come up with several different variations (as your fict survey had), but that's way too CREEPy to be effective - your same complaint about this being too long would be the same if we outlined how each type of character should be treated. There are general trends, and that's captured pretty damn well by while Phil wrote. It is not perfect - it is not something you can make a checklist again and quantify - but it does provide a better talking.

Also, while Phil wrote falls pretty well in line with the recent RFC at WP:N - every individual topic should strive to show it meets the GNG. The flexibility comes in what sources are appropriate to show that, or the expectation of that. Now, your last point on Mickey, that is "What is Mickey notable for?" is probably a very good point to include somewhere. This is a differentiator between trivial references and substantial aspects. If you can explain how a fictional character or other aspect has achieved notability through sources (including both creators and reception), then that should never prevent that element from having its own article. If it can't be shown, that doesn't mean we don't cover it, just that it is covered in the larger context of the work the element appears in or with out similar elements of the work that lack that aspect. Very few fictional characters and the like have information about what they are notable for, but when that is clearly shown from sources, it should be expanded on and thus never deleted. But here, we still need to be able to use good sources to state what an element is notable for, and for the specific concern of fandom, we need to avoid any self-pub or primary sources, which is why these aspects will come from secondary sources, still emphasizing that we are following the GNG to avoid editor's personal bias. Some statement on looking for "what a character is notable for?" would be ideal to add to one of the four points. --MASEM 06:18, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

proposing a split of this proposal

I think we should separate episodes from in-universe elements (characters, settings, weapons, items) of the work of fiction. There are a few reasons we should do this:

• It prevents us from describing what this guideline applies to with any specificity. We talk about "the aspect of the work of fiction" or "the component". You almost might not even know what WP:FICT is about in the first place, until you get to explicit examples.
• The guideline becomes pretty long, where we talk about the principles in abstract first, and then have additional sections that apply the principles to episodes and characters. We could avoid the whole "abstract" part by having two different guidelines.
• Speaking of which, the whole "abstract" part is pretty vague. We end up talking about importance and complexity in ambiguous terms that would make sense for in-universe elements like characters and items, as well as episodes. These parts of the guideline are less helpful than the specific applications, which are more clear.
• We may be trying to draw a line of best fit through articles that may actually have two different standards: I think personally think we're a little bit more liberal on episode lists and episode articles than we are on in-universe elements like characters and settings. I think a lot of other people would basically agree with that.
• We may end up getting no consensus because there's support on episodes, but no consensus on in-universe stuff, or vice versa. And it might not be obvious that this is why there is no consensus, because a lot of people will oppose the mega-guideline for different and unclear reasons.

I recognize that the abstract principles would be duplicated to some extent if we split the guideline... and thus some of the debates would be duplicated too. But I think the two different debates will lead to slightly different conclusions, if only in a nuanced way. And I think the guidelines will actually be more clear if we're talking about them with greater specificity, rather than in abstract. And keeping it shorter could only help. Randomran (talk) 06:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with this. Episodes and fictional elements can't be lumped together. Unfortunately answering the "episode" question properly means addressing "lists" of episodes. I think that addressing characters doesn't require addressing "lists" of characters. Protonk (talk) 06:45, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
• I'm unconvinced of the point of this. It seems there are three thresholds - episodes are easier to justify than characters are easier to justify than other stuff. But the underlying principles are largely the same. Splitting it up seems like an invitation for a mess. Phil Sandifer (talk) 12:19, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed...as evidenced by the nightmare that is/was WP:EPISODE and its getting challenged even MORE than WP:FICT. We've been there, we've done that, it didn't work. Neither did FICT, unfortunately. As for addressing a "list of episodes", the relevant projects already do this to some level, particularly WP:TV in WP:MOSTV. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 16:43, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

If we don't split, then we need to find ways to reduce the long passages of vague prose. We need to summarize the basic principles into 4 sentences, not 4 sections. That will make the principles more clear. Then we can apply the principles to episodes, characters, and "other stuff" with more detail -- which will also be more clear than anything we could talk about in abstract. Randomran (talk) 21:36, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

comments about non-wikipedia wikis to move information too

I'd like to comment on the part of the article that reads:

"Editors should also take advantage of non-Wikipedia wikis that follow the GFDL that may provide more details about a given fictional work. These can not only be used to augment brief descriptions of fictional topics, or can be used to relocate material that has been deemed unsuitable for Wikipedia. Links to such wikis should be placed as an external link to the articles in question."

I've done that over at www.wikia.com for two articles, Gantz and Voltron, which were deemed too long on the wikipedia and had a large chunk of their interesting and relevant content eliminated. I was told both times that I could not provide a link from those original wikipedia articles, to these other wikis by other editors, as these are considered "fan sites." Can't we just consider things hosted there to be extensions of wikipedia articles, and link over to them?

If the information is necessary to understand the series, and a crucial part of it, can a separate wikipedia article be made for it? If the only reason someone wanted to remove it, was because of its length, would this not make sense? Example, the unique weapons, vehicles, or powers of the characters in the series. Or the rules they are forced to face, and the rewards and punishments they will receive(example: wander out of bounds, and your head will explode).

As it stands now though, even if a main character from a long running series has enough information about them to fill an entire page, some object to them having their own page, and wish it cut down to a brief mention and merged with the main article, such as the case with some popular Inuyasha characters. This includes characters that have been in the manga/comic, anime/cartoon, and video games of the series, not just one thing. Dream Focus (talk) 13:53, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Self-published sources are normally to be avoided, but that said when editors agree that a off-site wiki is sufficiently maintained to be reliable and doesn't violate any other policies (eg copyright infringement) that link can be made as an EL. This means if you are moving stuff off WP to a wiki, it may take some time to make the wiki up to the quality it needs to have editor consensus support it as an EL. Once there, then you can provide supplimentary links for those characters that may have an article, albeit short, for more details. --MASEM 14:05, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

First, there has always been the debate among editors as to link to the Wikia page or not. Personally, I find it better to link to it then to tell people "put it there, but you better not provide a link over there". That's hypocritical. You cannot expect readers to know about the Wikia when they come to Wikipedia if you don't link to it. If you don't link to it, and they don't know about it, then you're just opening yourself up to argument about why so and so detail isn't mentioned.

Second, if those pages were suggested to be trimmed and merged, then it's because all they had was plot information. Wikipedia isn't about having a page with one giant plot summary. If they were in multiple works, then there should be some real world info on them. If there isn't, then they clearly are not that notable of a character (being in multiple works doesn't make one notable, just popular).  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 14:07, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

That's what I don't get. We tell people to move it to a wikia. Fine, but then when they do we say, "Oh and you can't even post a external link to it" thus basically looking like we are biting the hand that feeds us. If there are copyright issues on it or spyware/viruses, that's one thing, but often it's just someone who moved stuff over to the site because it wasn't suitable for Wikipedia and we refuse to acknolwedge them. Wikipedia has become for better ot worse, the first stop for many looking up info. If we can't give them all the info here, we should be directing them to the best source for what they need and often for works of fiction, that's those wikias we refuse to acknolwedge exist here unless they meet a level worthy of being a citable source themselves.じんない 23:25, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

That's just some editors, and they don't speak for everyone. Depending on who you talk to I've heard excuses ranging from "it's a conflict of interest because it's a for-profit location" to "it's a fansite and thus we shouldn't link to it". The first is hard to prove, and the second...well there isn't a policy that says don't link to fansites, you just have to be becareful that whatever you link to is going to extend the knowledge of the page (as there are tons of "fansites" out there and everyone will want their page linked to). The irony is, those Wikias link to Wikipedia just as easily.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

That's what I've always thought. We had a discussion on Sakura Kinomoto to move some of the stuff to the wikia, but then no one wants to link to it as an external link section because it didn't meet WP:ELNO.じんない 23:57, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, it clearly states in WP:ELNO: "Avoid links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors. Wikis that meet this criteria might also be added to Meta:Interwiki map." - First, the section is clearly identified as "normally to be avoided" and not "avoided at all costs". That means that there are cases when it is appropriate. Second, they even address Wikis being used so long as they are stable and have a number of editors operating on them. I don't know of too many Wikis that only have 1 editor monitoring all the pages. As for "stable", on Wikipedia that is defined as an article not having a lot of edit wars. Again, because they have free reign over there and aren't bound by the rules we are, you don't typically see a lot of edit wars. Plus, you could argue that every page goes through edit wars from time to time, and thus becomes "unstable" at any given moment. It's a baseless criteria for exclusion that is so subject it should really be removed.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 00:07, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it's also that people take "normally to be avoided" as "avoided at almost all costs" because people tend to apply normally as everything because it's easier than making legit exceptions.じんない 00:24, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

"Avoid links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors."

Why so vague? What is substantial? If its fine now, no sense waiting 6 months or however long people decide is substantial history. And how many editors do you need? There are a lot of great articles out there which don't have a lot of editors. And you won't be getting a lot of people over there to act as editors, if you can't provide a link. The official policy at www.wikia.com is surprisingly to create 50 stub pages right away, to get more hits from Google, and then people who go there will then contribute. That is their actual policy! So its set up all wrong. You need to get new editors by linking from the main wikipedia article, not trying to trick people over from Google. I suggest a new tag that can be added, saying, "parts of this wikipedia article were seen as too long, and thus moved to another wiki. Please go there for additional information." Dream Focus (talk) 00:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Not going to happen, I'm afraid. For the same reasons the community has rejected soft redirects to wikia articles. We want to build the web here, keep people (readers and editors) looking at wikipedia. Not shunting them elsewhere. Sometimes users create content that doesn't fit out inclusion guidelines so we do a favor to wikia wikis and send the article there--this doesn't extend to pointing readers and editors there. Protonk (talk) 00:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

If they are hosted by the same people, why not just have the regular wikipedia allow side pages? Clicking on a link in the wikipedia article would bring you to another page, but its hosted elsewhere, with links back to the main wikipedia article. People will still use the wikipedia, but have any bonus information hosted on the side wiki, with it not competing for main article content at all. Or better yet, just eliminate the useless rules which makes the wikipedia too restrictive at times. The vast majority of people in this world would not care if every single minor character from a series had its own page. If you aren't interested in them, you won't find your way there to see it anyway. Server space is cheap and limitless, it just the bandwidth costing money after all. Dream Focus (talk) 01:08, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia is NOT a big giant hosting service for anything anyone feels like writing/proclaiming/theorizing/making up/etc. Despite what some folks things, it IS AN ENCYCLOPEDIA! -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

It is ENTERTAINMENT! The vast majority of people look up things because they are curious, and enjoy reading about them, not because they have to. Otherwise they'd not allow popular culture at all, just brief boring descriptions of things, with no detail. Most people can name more characters in the Simpsons than they can former presidents, or active members of congress. And there ain't nothing wrong with that. Dream Focus (talk) 01:26, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

No, this is not an entertainment site. And the rest...that's just so damn sad I can't even think of a response (not to mention being not entirely accurate, yet sadly, also at least somewhat accurate). Just because Americans, in particularly, like to rejoice in and brag about their ignorance doesn't mean the rest of the English speaking world lives in a popular culture cave, nor that the "vast majority" of people are idiots who only care about popular culture and would never look up any non-fictional topics (and, FYI, non-fictional popular culture is just as popular, aka bios about famous folks, music, etc, hell, go look at the album cruft!). Whether people do it for "curiosity" is completely irrelevant. We don't learn much of anything because we "have" to, all we "have" to learn is how to walk, eat, and escape from danger like any other animal. Humans should (and do) crave knowledge because they are human. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:35, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't make any sense Protonk. We link to IMDb, Box Office Mojo, Rotten Tomatoes, and a vast many other websites that are merely extensions of the same information we already provide, yet I don't see any issue with linking them in the EL section. If we cannot keep thousands of words of plot description, yet someone wants to read it, there should not be an issue with pointing them in the right direction. Wikipedia is not a dictatorship, and that extends to the information it provides. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and even encyclopedias will extend the courtesy of acknowledging where additional information can be attained. The entire idea behind the EL section is holding links to webpages that have extended information that we could not otherwise use in an article. Otherwise, what the hell is the point of having an EL section?

Collectonian, you need to calm down a bit, you're being a bit abrasive in your responses.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 01:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I've made all of two responses. How were they abrasive?? Slightly annoyed at a major problem in this country, but I don't see anything abrasive there. As for the thousands of words of plot, I seem to remember that another part fo the whole issue is that we can't say for sure how much of a plot "summary" if its word for word is copyvio. Also, most of the Wikias for fictional articles are, unfortunately, violations of WP:COPYRIGHT because there is less policing so people freely link to fansites, fansub/dubs, YouTube links, etc. IMDB, I honestly would love to see a real discussion as to whether it really meets WP:EL at all. The film project recently dropped it from the infobox because of EL issues, and it is primarily self-published so how did it become the pervasive link. It really doesn't provide any new information, its self-published, and fails the same guidelines as Wikia, IMHO. BOM does provide additional reliable information, usually, in the form of breaking down the box office numbers and what not, but considering its usually used as a reference, one also wonders why it is also in the EL section (repetitive). Rotten Tomatoes...well, that's a whole other argument :-P I agree we have let some sites "get by" when they have the same things we say "don't link to wikia" because x, y, z... and one should question why, but the whole EL issue really belongs at WP:EL as this guideline can not and should not attempt to modify that guideline. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

When you follow your capitalized words with exclamation marks, it's a little much. You reach a point where it appears like you're yelling because there is so much emphasis on the word. The reason Wikipedia cannot put that much plot information in is because we are a non-profit organization, which means we have special rules that govern us keeping our non-profit license. Wikias are not bound by the GDFL license like we are, hence why they get to get away with it. The fact remains, it's hypocritical of us to tell editors to take the unencyclopedic (but still relevant to the subject) information to a Wikia, but then deny them the ability to allow the reader the chance to view that information. If they don't know about the Wikia, then moving the information there is pointless.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 01:59, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

How so? It is still excessive plot information that doesn't belong here. If we didn't tell them to move it to Wikia, we'd just remove it and tell them to Google if they want more information. Fans can and will do web searches to find other sites with such information. Most people neither want nor need to know the minute details, fan theories, etc of a fictional work to have a basic understanding of it. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:35, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

If they don't know what to look for then they won't see it. Doing a search for a general fictional element doesn't put its Wikia page at the top. It's Wikipedia article is generally at the top, but it usually takes a couple of pages of sifting to find the Wikia page, and that's only if you know to look for a Wikia page. Please don't make generalize statements about what most people want or need. You have no evidence to back such a claim up.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 02:45, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

• Linking under WP:EL is different from placing a template message on a page that says "Go to a competing wiki". We aren't responsible for publicizing a wikia wiki. If linking to them will increase the reader's understanding in a fundamental way that improving the page cannot--good, we link to them. But we don't otherwise. I'm not sure how this is hard-line or combatative. Furthermore, this whole discussion is not related to WP:FICT. If you want to gather consensus to change our policies on external content, you might try the village pump, WT:EL, Wikipedia:WikiProject Transwiki or over at [Meta:Interwiki map]]. Protonk (talk) 02:15, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

It's always easier when people understand the point of the initial comment. Dream Focus was making reference to the contradictory nature of this page telling people to send it to Wikia, when other editors are claiming that they should not even link to Wikia. Why tell a group of editors to send information to a place that they cannot even point the reader to?  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 02:25, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

If there were no Wikia, people would be told to go find a fansite or go make their own to put such excessive plot information. They would not be allowed to link to it either. When people spam links without meaning to, we point them to various link directories as more appropriate places, even if we do not link to those directories. Excessive game guide info we point to game guide websites, without linking to them ourselves. How is Wikia special/different to allow a link to it just because we point it out as a possible other place to put content in that is not acceptable here? -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:35, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Depending on the fansite, it might actually be linked on Wikipedia. Not all fansites are linked, but some actually are. What makes any link we put in the EL section special? The point of this discussion was over the fact that we tell people to put info in a place that we deny them (for the most part, as it's clear from the amount of linking in articles that this isn't even combated on a regular basis) the ability to link to.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 02:45, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia though is about trying to build information network, not systemically dismantle because it doesn't conform to our (Wikipedia's) collective consciousness of what is "right". As I said, Wikipedia is the first stop for most people now seeking information, even for historical research it is often a first (though not last) stop. For entertainment it's only larger. Last year the most popular search term was general research...but only by 2%. The next highest was anime, which is clearly fictional (even those based on true stories). Even movies are at 4%. Therefore as wikipedia is essentially a gatekeeper, whether it intended to be or not, we should not hold people to stop finding more information on stuff deemed by us to be too trivial. If we tell someone the information is relevant, but not Wikipedia relevant, and we or they move it, then we should link to it, not as a banner, but in an EL section. That kind of use does not go against using Wikipedia as a main source for finding basic info because it's not intrusive. It's at the end of an article, which if you know anything about general article structures the most relevent information is first, the least relevent is last.じんない 07:48, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

That pie charge of the most popular things searched for is quite revealing. They even mention Naruto being something people access, and it does link to Naruto.wikia.com and the massive amount of information there. So this other wiki isn't stealing all your viewers, people still coming here. And fearing loss of regular users isn't a valid reason to not link to another area. General research means anything that doesn't fit into another category perhaps? I was surprised to see how many people use the wikipedia to look up information about sex. There are articles explaining in detail every possible position and fetish though. Wikipedia, your first stop for information about cartoons or perversion. No one seems to be trying to arguing to get all those detailed articles all be combined into one sex article, with a brief mention of what each sex position is, and no disturbing pictures that load up without warning. Is it encyclopedic to reveal that much information instead of a brief summary? Why is the more popular category of Anime held to a different standard than sex is? I don't have a problem with any amount of detail for the sex things, just the inconsistency of the rules. They divide popular culture, anime, movies, etc. into different categories, instead of sticking it all together as entertainment? Because entertainment is more popular than anything else. Dream Focus (talk) 08:21, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary Break

Popular culture could also mean recent news events like people looking up information on politics, FE.じんない 13:49, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Plotcruft and Narrative Complexity

Whilst I welcome the introduction of additional tests to supplement the requirements of WP:N in order to broaden the inclusion criteria for fictional topics, including a test for narrative complexity, I feel the section "Narrative complexity" is actually a coatrack proposal that would exempt articles and lists about fictional topics from WP:NOT#PLOT, and as such, I feel this part of the proposal is a trojan horse, designed to circumvent the extensive discussions at WT:NOT why plot summary on its own is not encyclopedic. What I am refering to is the statement:

"For some works - particularly extremely lengthy serialized works -providing a concise plot summary in one article can be difficult or impossible. Where works have significant narrative complexity that requires considerable length to adequately summarize the plot, we are often more tolerant of spin-out articles that are focused primarily on plot."

I don't see how this contributes to any test, in that long and rambling plot summaries are in no way indicative that there is something significant to say about a particular topic, e.g. the article Guiding Light (1980–1989). The reason for my objection is that articles based on plot summaries can be sliced and diced in any which way an editor chooses, which makes them susceptible to content forks. Plot summary articles can be written from several perpectives, firstly through the narrative flow of a story, then from the characters perspective, and then we graduate on to "story-arcs" that bring one or more slightly connected stories into a "universe of", "ficitional world of" or "timeline of" type article. This section I see as being very problematical in its current form, as it gives carte blanche to "plotcruft". --Gavin Collins (talk) 17:58, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. "Providing a concise plot summary in one article can be difficult or impossible" is only so if someone doesn't wish to actually be concise. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 18:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I share these concerns. Narrative complexity is often an excuse for exhaustive coverage. Take this old article which has since been merged. "Wow, it's so complex!" --

"Big was sleeping in his hut one night, when he woke up and saw that his friend, Froggy, had swallowed his lucky charm; the yellow Chaos Emerald. As soon as he noticed that Froggy had grown a tail, Froggy ran off, causing Big to chase after him. After trying to catch him in Twinkle Park, and then in Ice Cap, Big was able to catch Froggy on Emerald Coast, but Dr. Eggman's robot, E-102 Gamma caught him and ran away. Seeing that, Big tried to convince the robot to give him Froggy back, but without any positive results."

There *is* a common sense notion of what's a healthy summary and what isn't. But then there are people who fly in the face of common sense and write out virtually exhaustive detail of every scene. Up until now, the only way to stop that kind of plotcruft has been WP:N: you're going to need to fit it into 10-20k, in the context of broader coverage. And if you want to split out a more detailed summary, you have to prove that drilling down into one episode or one character is notable enough to be justified. This guideline risks saying "if you can write 100k of plot, you're justified". Trust me when I say that people will put virtually anything in there: unreliable fan speculation, indiscriminate information about height and weight and favorite foods, a mention of a dumb joke that hints at the character secretly being gay, every level the character visits, and every character they interact with... and it can all be justified by a loose reference to the primary source itself. "Complexity" does sound a lot like carte blanche. Randomran (talk) 21:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm open to rephrasings, but I think there is a demonstrable consensus towards an understanding that, for instance, The Wire has different summary needs than Sesame Street. So I'd like to see something that gets at the understanding that different things need different sorts of summaries. But I'm perfectly happy to see some language that stresses the importance of being as brief as it is possible to be. Perhaps more explicitly referencing WAF, SUMMARY, and PLOTSUM in that section? Phil Sandifer (talk) 04:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, a rephrase is all that's necessary, because I think the principle is good -- just susceptible to abuse. I think we need to distinguish complexity from length or detail. Yeah, there's a lot of detail that goes into Sesame Street. But it's not on the level of The Wire. Examples are helpful, but if we could try to articulate a general principle, so much the better. Randomran (talk) 06:32, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Shortening

I see several comments made about the length of the guideline. I will readily confess to being wordy - by all means, if someone wants to cut my prose down, please. I am poor at it. Brief explanation of concepts is actively trained out of you in my field. Phil Sandifer (talk) 04:25, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I think we need a strategy before we start getting overzealous with the scrubbing. I'd like to make the principles more concise because information in there is generally pretty vague and can be summed up succinctly... but if we do that, we can actually afford to *expand* the sections on episodes and characters. A lot of what we state in the four principles has to do with specific examples anyway. I'm just thinking out loud though, and don't want to be too aggressive or anything. Randomran (talk) 07:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I wasn't saying change the meaning. I'm sure I'm being too wordy in describing what's there, and that what I said could be said in fewer words. :) Phil Sandifer (talk) 13:45, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Me either. I was hoping to accomplish the same thing with fewer words and more clarity. Do you think the layout I suggested makes sense? Much shorter principles, somewhat longer application? Randomran (talk) 18:02, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Honest introduction to the guideline

When Phil's proposal was first introduced, I thought highly of it as an honest attempt to address the need for additional inclusion criteria, rather than pleading for specific exemptions for fictional topics. However, the preamble of the proposal is makes assertions (or a lack of them) about Wikipedia inclusion guidelline WP:N that do not hold true:

"No hard and fast rule regarding the notability of fictional subjects has found wide consensus, and the issue remains deeply contentious. In lieu of such a general principle, this guideline attempts instead to address practical consensus - that is, the factors that often, in practice, go into keeping or deleting an article on a fictional subject."

I don't think this statement bears any resemblence to reality at all. Firstly, we already know that if a topic satisfies the requirements General notability guideline, then we can presume it should be allowed its own article. I don't think any harline inclusionists stupid enough to believe that articles that do meet this criteria should be excluded; on the contrary, I think the only hard and fast rules for inclusion criteria that we can agree on is the General notability guideline. The key question in this debate is what additional inclusion criteria can be agree upon.
Secondly, I think we have to recognise that this guideline has only an indirect influence on the outcome of AfD debates. What ever inclusion criteria we agree on for ficitonal topics, we have to recognise that WP:FICT is not a set of criteria for topic exclusion per se. What I mean by this is that fictonal topics will continue to be nominated for deletion, and as poor quality articles will continue to be merged, redirected or deleted on the grounds of poor content or bias. This guideline cannot be used to stop or curtail decisions being made at AFD which we do not agree with. This is why I am proposing the following preamble, which drops the first two paragraphs and replaces them with a preamble that is more honest:

Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) is a guideline that defines the inclusion criteria for topics about fiction, including individual and serialized works (such as television episodes or comic book series), as well the elements of fiction that appear in them. Works of fiction distributed through the media of books and film are also (but not exclusively) the subject of separate notability guidelines for books and films respectively.

In all cases, if a topic relating to a work or element of fiction meets the requirement of the General notability guideline, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for an stand-alone article, provided that the content of the article meets Wikipedia's content policies.

I think once we admit that General notability guideline is the most direct route to article inclusion, then the guideline is being honest that the 4-pronged test are additional criteria which broaden the requirements of WP:N.--Gavin Collins (talk) 09:44, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I have no strong feelings about this issue. It is shorter, it seems to me accurate. I was less fond of the reducing the four-prong test to "additional criteria," as I think the prong is really one criterion, not four separate, but the intro looks fine to me. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to add that the "practical consensus" thing is nonsense. You have a small number of people out there, who just happen to be around at the time, who decide something, even if they have never contributed to that article before, understand the subject matter, or care about it at all. Three people vote to eliminate a large portion of an article, or delete it entirely, and only one regular editor of the article is around to protest, then it gets deleted. We need set rules established, clear as can be, to avoid problems. List all the legitimate reasons to delete something, and the reasons which are not valid, and force people to choose from that list when they try to delete anything. Dream Focus (talk) 14:28, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:DEL#REASON, while applicable moreso to article deletion rather than information deletion, looks good enough to me to delete information in an article. As do the variety of WP:Policies and guidelines. Do you really want specific policies and guidelines?... --Izno (talk) 15:42, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. It will prevent arguments. Specific policies, listing examples, to avoid any confusion. There are some editors out there who are notorious for refusing to tag or discuss things, but just go rampaging about to a dozen articles a day, erasing content. And some rules are open to interpretation, which leads to problems, not everyone agreeing on their meaning. Everything should be set out as specific is possible, with any new cases that don't fall into the lines listed here, staff looking over the discussions, and then adding or editing policy as deemed fit.

Example: A writer creates several screenplays that get made into big budget films. Those films make a considerable amount of money. Is the writer therefor automatically notable? What about the director, and the voice actors? Do you have to prove that a person's involvement in a successfully and notable featured length film, could not have been just as successful without them? That's what we're debating now at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Temple_Mathews and I'm thinking a set rule would help out here.

Another example of a set rule, and a reason I'm against the "practical consensus" bit, is the Gantz article. One person decided it was too long, and erased a large portion of it without discussion or explanation. I reverted it, asking them to explain themselves before removing such a large portion of the article. They refuse to until a few edit and reverts later. Since no one else was around, I asked for a third party intervention. The two people that happen to spot my request, went over, and agreed the article was too long before, and supported the erasure. I tried to engage them in a discussion, asking about the content, but got no reply. I later added in some crucial information back into the page, such as the rewards necessary to keep them participating in the alien hunting event, and a link to equipment elsewhere on a separate page I created, but still, a lot of crucial information isn't there(such as aspects of the mission). And linking to the wiki I copied it over to, was determined to not be acceptable by a two against two vote. Having set rules will prevent problems, since otherwise its just a random coin toss, you never knowing what people will be around to use their personal opinions on something. If someone believes are all articles are too long, and information should just be randomly grabbed and deleted by someone who doesn't know anything about the series, and isn't fit to judge the content, then the article gets erased. If the people there at the time are fans of the series, they'll vote to keep it. So its just a coin toss. Dream Focus (talk) 17:06, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Most of the question of "are those that worked on a notable film notable" are answered through the various requirements at WP:BIO. On the Gantz point, the rule is WP:NOT#PLOT - Plot details should be concise, and articles on fiction should not be heavily focused on the plot but instead the real-world aspects, balancing the plot along with it. We are not writing articles for fans of a fictional work but instead for the general reader that may never have heard of the work and will likely never see it but has need to be aware of what it is. --MASEM 14:34, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

(1st sorry for my bad english) Hummm... try to use the same reasoning on some other topics: "general readers" about enzymes (or the mother topic Medicine) need a page like Phospholipase C or Cholinesterase enzyme? no, they are clearly fancruft from the point of view of "the general reader that may never have heard of" enzymes "and will likely never see it but has need to be aware of what it is". Astronomy? what is the real word importance of 77P/Longmore? people had written book about it? a "general readers of astronomy" need the thousands of voice linked here List_of_asteroids/1–1000 or the hundreds here List_of_periodic_comets? no, these are voices for Amateur astronomy or professional Astronomy (but the latters have sources more reliable than wiki to take those data), so if wikipedia is for "general readers of astronomy" why not go in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astronomy and ask people to trasnwiki all these page (clearly fancruft for astronomy lovers and not for generic readers) on some specific wiki or web site ad then propose all for AFD? And for Geography? really a "generic reader" need all these page Category:Cities_and_towns_in_Italy_by_region, everyone with demographics evolution, coordinates, maybe story, etc? For the general readers interested in the geography of Italy, a table with population and coordinates for 99% of these, and pages only for the most important city (Rome, Florence, Genoa, Milan, Naples, Tourin, Venice, Pisa, Palermo), isn't enough? and also for the very big city in the world, a "generic reader" need a voice for every buildings like Singer Building or Cadillac Square Building? And "the general reader that may never have heard of" 11/9 and "has need to be aware of what it is" , need all the page linked here September 11 attacks whit all the 9/11 conspiracy theories? A general reader that need only to know what it was 11/9 need a page like Collapse of the World Trade Center?

Loking to other topics IMHO we (wikipedia) are very very far from a place where people write only for "gereric readers" of various topics; so, if we write for fan and expert of medicine, fan and expert of astronomy, fan and expert of geography, fan and expert of conspiracy theories, and so on, why we can't also write for fan and expert of fiction? --Yoggysot (talk) 04:50, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I think what Gavin Collins offers makes sense. There's not really a good introduction or overview to this guideline. We should start with the general guideline, and then direct people to the guidelines on books and films... then go into "everything else". Randomran (talk) 18:06, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I would take out mention of fiction media being covered, as that was an issue from the previous version and that Phil's version makes no attempt to address, as it is covered for major media types by other SNGs, otherwise by the GNG. Phil's FICT as it is only serves to outline elements of fiction, not works thereof. --MASEM 21:37, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

What we need is a version of WP:FICT with some standards that have to be met for inclusion, not an end run around WP:N. Take a look at WP:BAND, which is a well-accepted set of criteria that defines the minimal level of notability required for a band, song, or album to get into Wikipedia. Garage bands are regularly kicked out using {{db-band}}. There are some nice, clear critera, like "two CDs on a major label". We need bright-line standards like that. Then we won't have so many long AfD discussions. --John Nagle (talk) 04:57, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I confess, I am unable to even begin to conceive of why we would prefer bright-line standards to discussions. Phil Sandifer (talk) 13:57, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

While I don't think all of our standards need to be bright-lines, we need to avoid vague standards. There are two reasons I can think of for this. One is that participants in an AfD discussion need to be able to hash out some consensus in 5 days. This is practically impossible if WP:N is replaced with something open to simultaneous multiple interpretations. The second is that eventually a guideline like this will result in a chilling effect on content creation. If editors don't know whether or not their article will get deleted then they are liable to decide not to create it. WP:NB and WP:BAND offer clear paths to notability, allowing me to tell what kind of article will be retained. I know that an article on A Great Wall: Six Presidents and China will not be deleted but an article on Tyler's other book (Running Critical) might be. If I didn't know, I wouldn't bother attempting to create either one. Protonk (talk) 19:56, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

We've been down the path of trying to brightline inclusion requirements for fiction, keeping in mind that the presumption of notability as other SNGs give should lead to the GNG (eg major character from long running tv series), but these are so inconsistent in both how sources do work out in the real world, and what happens in AFD and discussions here, that the only bright line that can be given is the GNG, and even then we know that some fiction articles get around that in AFD. --MASEM 14:31, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia usually avoids "presumption of notability". Notability has to be demonstrated through third-party references. A "major character from a long-running TV series" is probably only notable independent of the show if they won an Emmy or someone wrote a book about them. Buffy would qualify. --John Nagle (talk) 17:17, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Characters don't win Emmys. And Wikipedia does not avoid presumption of notability. Please stop being silly. Phil Sandifer (talk) 18:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

You pointed to WP:BAND which has presumptions of notability . Many other SNGs have these. I just don't think we can safely apply this type of criteria to fiction. --MASEM 18:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:BAND says "In order to meet Wikipedia's standards for verifiability and notability, the article in question must actually document that the criterion is true. It is not enough to make vague claims in the article or assert a band's importance on a talk page or AfD page -- the article itself must document notability." That's what I meant by "not presuming notability", and that's the kind of requirement we need in WP:FICT. --John Nagle (talk) 19:45, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Uh, the first two sentences Gavin quotes are true. AS proven by all the drama related to gavin collins and the wikiProject D&D. Kairos (talk) 18:30, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Another reason to keep Fictional Elements articles...

... If we have sub-articles on, say, fictional space ships, then we could categorize those articles, without having to worry about issues like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional spaceships. As is, a list article is perceived as having different notability requirements than a non-list article. Frankly, I'd rather have a set of small articles spun out from their shows/books/movies and categorized appropriately, than humongous fictional lists like this. Jclemens (talk) 04:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Redirects are cheap. Non-notable elements that lack an article should have a redirect to the article that best covers that part, and the redirects themselves can then be categorized along with articles. Such "lists" can be covered to better-serving categories without significant impact. --MASEM 14:28, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Brainstorm: re-framing "complexity"

It seems like there's a consensus that the principle of narrative complexity needs a re-phrase. I think most people can admit that if your film/game/show is closer to "The Wire" than "Sesame Street", you're more likely to end up with an article that doesn't read like complete cruft. But then you'd also have to admit that "complexity" is a vague measuring stick, and even Sesame Street can be complicated if you go into the intricacies of what Elmo looks like, how he discovers that his pie is missing, the many characters he talks to about his missing pie, the journey to meet those characters through several locations, and how he savors the pie once it is found, including a brief analysis of the punchline and why it's funny.

I'd like to brainstorm some ideas that have the spirit of what Phil Sandifer put together (e.g.: complexity helps notability), but with much more clarity.

One idea: I think we have to talk about what kind of complexity. A summary of an episode of The Wire will involve verbs like "convincing", "negotiating", "warning", "intimidating", "trusting", "rising in rank"... this is social complexity. That's a kind of complexity that is central to a good summary. Physical complexity: what someone looks like, exact locations where they meet, things they take or consume... these are necessary, but not central.

I'm just thinking out loud here. Right now, "complexity" is too vague, and could be abused to open the floodgates. Randomran (talk) 19:44, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Subtlety, perhaps? Nuance? I'm trying to think of other nouns here. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:36, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Depth is a possible candidate, but that also can lead us astray. A lot of "critical" (in terms of scholarly critiques) literature relates less to narrative complexity than to subtextual elements. Reams and reams are written about how book X undermines some patriarchal ideology but rather less is written about the textual (as in distinct from themes and subtext) complexity. I'm NOT saying wikipedia should base inclusion guidelines for fiction on what crit. lit. PhD's write, just saying that a large body of the sources are distributed according to a different set of assumptions than we are using. Protonk (talk) 20:42, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the problem isn't the word. A single word can have a different meaning to different people. What we need is a principle. "Complexity" is vague. But saying something like "plot information beyond describing the physical appearance of characters and locations, and beyond describing physical action sequences." If you have a lot of plot information beyond that, the need for a stand-alone article is more justified. Just thinking out loud. Randomran (talk) 01:25, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Development, maybe?じんない 03:00, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

We ought to be able to describe exactly what we're looking for in a single sentence, no? Randomran (talk) 06:20, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec)We may be SOL if the goal is to find a rough criteria that is proportional to coverage in reliable sources. My belief is that (and I think Phil can substantiate this) idiosyncrasies in works of fiction and coverage of those work dominate instrumental differences. Protonk (talk) 03:04, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

The thing is there's no equivalence at WP:N or any notability guideline. It's not like the ability to write a long article prevents something non-notable from being deleted. However, it might prevent something that *is* notable from being *merged*. Maybe complexity isn't an issue for what is or isn't deleted: it's just that something with a really simple plot summary could probably be merged into a list. Again, thinking out loud. Randomran (talk) 06:20, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I've been backing away from this discussion, but I'll comment here. The problem is that trying to relate the concepts of "complexity" and "notability" is doomed. They have nothing to do with each other. I could be writing the Great Antillean Novel, full of intricate plotting, allegory, and allusion, and all of that would not engender any notability as long as it stays on my hard drive. It's true that people tend to be more tolerant of longer explanations of complex plots than they are of detailed expositions on simple ones, but that isn't related to notability. Protonk's comment about idiosyncracies is correct. The best plot summary I ever wrote is here, and it replaced this. It's not often that one paragraph can replace twenty and do a better job.

I'm still much in favor of focusing on the concept of reliance: an article that is weighted 90% towards plot summary can't be said to be relying on third-party sources. The plot summary needs to be smaller than the material derived from third-party sources. If that weights us towards articles about things that have attracted considerable outside opinion, so be it: that's generally true throughout Wikipedia.—Kww(talk) 14:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you that plot summary needs to be smaller. But again, there's a difference between where an article should end up and where we are willing to tolerate it being for the time being. I would disagree, however, that complexity and notability are unrelated. You're obviously right that complexity is not sufficient to establish notability. But I do think that, when taken with other factors, it does play into the decisions we make. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:29, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

But can you say the same thing about the other factors? Would an important part of an important series, with information on its development and production, be deleted because it's too simple? I'm starting to think complexity is almost entirely irrelevant. I'd really like to see the articles you're talking about. If you're right, then it will help us articulate the principle. But it's possible that complexity is irrelevant, because the articles are really about (1) importance and (2) real-world information, not complexity. Randomran (talk) 17:38, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Let me show you. Comic Book Guy is part of an important series, with some good real-world information on his development and reception. But not only is he a minor character, but the plot around him is VERY simple: attributes, possessions... (it could even be trimmed down because it looks a lot like original research, and excess detail, IMO.) In other words, (1) importance and (2) real-world information are the key. Complexity is irrelevant. Randomran (talk) 18:03, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, but on the other hand, I think we'd be more willing to keep articles on episodes of The Sopranos and The Wire that meet prongs 2-4 more marginally than, say, articles on episodes of The Cosby Show. I mean, the issue for me is that I think that without #1 there are articles that would get deleted inappropriately. I think complexity plays in, but it seems to me to tend to only play in in an article's favor. Hm. But that is, you're right, distinct from the other three prongs. Perhaps a "mitigating circumstances" section that notes that the guidelines are relaxed (but under no circumstances ignored) for certain categories of articles - narrative complexity, the issues of the bias section, etc? Phil Sandifer (talk) 18:25, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sympathetic to what you're getting at. Maybe complexity isn't valuable in itself. But I might concede that complexity is part of demonstrating importance. A stand-alone episode in a simple series with no strong running plotline will be considered non-notable, because the episode is unimportant in the grand scheme of things. But an episode in a "serialized" plot will be hugely important. The episode is a vital part of understanding a complex series, as opposed to just a cool episode. That's why an episode of The Sopranos is more important than an episode of Friends: you can watch a stand-alone episode of Friends pretty easily, but you'd have a much harder time understanding the complexities of the Sopranos if you watched/ignored random episodes. What I'm proposing is that "complexity" is one part of proving #2: Importance within the fictional work. (This would be in addition to several other ways of proving importance within the fictional work: reviews, awards, screentime, etc.) So we'd drop #1, and make it a factor in #2. Randomran (talk) 18:40, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Looks like User:Jinnai has gone ahead and "merged" complexity into "importance of the element". I think this does a better job of explaining why complexity is a factor. Thus, it explains what complexity can or cannot do for a subject's notability. ... this will need a copy-edit though. I'm going to give it a shot. Randomran (talk) 19:49, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

A somewhat harder line, but closer to WP:N

Added a section to the article with a compromise version of the "harder line" above. I'm trying to stay as close to WP:N as possible. Comments? --John Nagle (talk) 16:55, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

• It will probably be reverted because the point of this guideline is to extend the penumbra of WP:N beyond the GNG. Protonk (talk) 17:05, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. That is no compromise. Phil Sandifer (talk) 18:26, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

There's no consensus for weakening WP:N to accommodate fancruft. There are some people who want that, but there's no consensus for it. There are WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguments., but those are generally considered irrelevant in policy discussions. --John Nagle (talk) 19:15, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe. There is also no consensus to apply the GNG strictly to all articles on elements of fictional works. Protonk (talk) 19:24, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

If you see Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines, you'll see that policy comes from documenting actual good practices and seeking consensus that the documentation truly reflects them. Policy follows practice: don't let the tail wag the dog. Now, it's a thin line between documenting actual good practice and simply WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. But the key word is good practice. This Little Wiggy is borderline when it comes to WP:N -- it may even violate it if we were being technical. But it's considered a good article. Why? Maybe because there's some solid real world information that comes from DVD commentary. I can live with that as a standard of what's good. Randomran (talk) 19:41, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Bias towards telivision?

I believe the current guidelines are biased toward fiction in reguards to television. Some of this includes all the major examples using television series (and it formerly grouped in prong 1 (now merged with prong 2) video games as a general rule having more simplistic plots, despite a lot of RPGs having far more complex plots than many telivision shows. Furthermore, the section of specific tendencies is slanted toward a TV perspective by listing a section on episodes, but not on dealing with indivisual games or novels within a series.じんない 19:32, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

• Maybe. I don't feel it is biased to say that fictional works with simplistic plots deserve less coverage. In other words, it isn't our fault that most VG plots are rushed and tacked on. It's probably a fundamentally unworkable rule, but that is neither here nor there. Also, what is the analogue between television episodes and games? One episode of The Simpsons (for example) doesn't equal one numbered release of Final Fantasy. Protonk (talk) 19:36, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
• I'm not sure that it's biased. According to the now three-prong test, if the video game or series demonstrates huge cultural importance, and if the character (probably not an episode) is important to the game or series, and if there is some information about the character's development and reception ... then it might be notable. (Despite a lack of reliable third-party sources.) I think it's pretty fair to all kinds of fiction. In fact, it might even be biased towards games: game developers are more likely to write blogs about how something is developed. Randomran (talk) 19:44, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

It may not be as much biased, but I believe the section Specific tendencies still has some, most probably in my mind because it gives a section devoted to television (and possibly original video animation, episodes division, but doesn't have anything for other forms of fictional media.じんない 20:54, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I want to talk it over w/ Phil and others, but IMO if we can strengthen the three prong test we can diminish the importance of the specific tendencies section. I'd prefer that the meat of the guideline be in the test, with examples following and an explanation of sources that fall in between the cracks at the bottom. Protonk (talk) 20:59, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I think Protonk might be onto something. The "prongs" are already becoming more clear. If the prongs become pretty simple to read, we won't need to go into as much detail about specific examples. Let's keep finding ways to improve conciseness and clarity. Randomran (talk) 21:03, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

• The person who wrote the original draft was probably more involved with television articles, however that doesn't mean the guidelines aren't relevant for other types of fiction. Was there a particular problem that wasn't addressed? --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 01:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

We're now down to three factors

After the brief discussion further up... User:Jinnai boldly merged the first two factors, tying complexity into a measure of importance. I went with it and tried to copy-edit it. Don't let me strong-arm the guideline: I could use a second pair of eyes to make sure I didn't lose anything in the process, and to make sure I didn't overstep actual practice either. How does it look so far? Randomran (talk) 20:26, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

• I like it. Context, content and importance. C²I.  :) Protonk (talk) 20:28, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
• I also like it. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:30, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Questions of imperfection?

The notability guideline does not address questions of imperfection in notable articles now - ie. an article's subject may be demonstrably notable, but the article does not have to be perfect or featured or even good in order to prevent its deletion or being merged. --Malkinann (talk) 23:12, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Isn't that what this guideline does? It establishes a threshold for an appropriate article, and the standard is well below what's required for a featured or good article. Randomran (talk) 23:34, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I recall that in the ArbCom, the unlikelihood of Lum Invader getting to GA was given as a reason why it should be merged into a list, so I believe it should be clarified in WP:FICT that proving notability is less stringent than GA requirements. Also, WP:FICT does not link to the current policy WP:IMPERFECT and it links to GA and FA as examples of high quality fiction articles, so it may be a point of confusion. --Malkinann (talk) 23:43, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I think getting into merging notable but low quality articles is kind of off topic. We merge low quality notable articles all the time, and that has nothing to do with WP:N but more to do with what we think is an appropriate way to organize information. Sometimes a notable article will be stuck at stub status -- save a ton of WP:OR -- and so we merge it into something else to create something better. But that's a whole separate debate that has nothing to do with WP:N. Randomran (talk) 02:24, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Notability is the threshold for inclusion, not quality. If you're familiar with WP:N, this shouldn't be confusing. The quality of an article at any given time is not particularly relevant to a notability discussion. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 01:54, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

How would one go about properly asserting a topic's notability? Sometimes an article needs to have a certain level of quality in order to properly assert its notability - but I don't believe an article needs to be good in order for the subject's notability to be proved. At the moment, WP:FICT says that you can't just add one review and say that out-of-universe information is taken care of, but there's got to be a sensible middle ground beyond just lip-service to the idea of real-world notability and feeling like you have to create a good article alone in your sandbox before putting it into mainspace, because otherwise it would be put up for AFD for being "non-notable" if it's got anything less than six or so paragraphs of real-world information. I feel that such a middle ground would be determined through discussion and consensus, but I do feel that attention needs to be drawn to the fact that an article does not need to be perfect for its subject to be notable. --Malkinann (talk) 02:38, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

You're right, an article doesn't need to be good to prove notability. But I don't think you'll find anyone saying that, let alone in a guideline or policy. Randomran (talk) 03:02, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I've had experiences where a topic was up for deletion because of notability concerns, but it was demonstrated that the content was available, just that the article quality was so poor that this wasn't apparent from the article. So notability either needs to be demonstrated in the article or explained by an article proponent on the talkpage. While lack of that information on the page might be an indication that the topic is not notable; it's not decisive proof. The burden of proof would lie with those who are fighting to keep a given article. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 05:11, 29 November 2008 (UTC)