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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Matt Lewis (talk | contribs) at 17:13, 30 November 2008 (→Unprotect request and revised Intro: c). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
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Poll: Ireland article titles

A poll is currently underway to determine the rendition of the island, nation-state, and disambiguation articles/titles for Ireland in Wp. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 08:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Northern Ireland

Surely Northern Ireland should have its own bullet point? The purpose of this page is to list the uses of the term "Ireland"; if it is simply to be a dictionary definition, it is redundant, as there is already one here. "Ireland" is frequently used to refer to Northern Ireland, and whether that usage is "correct" or not is largely irrelevant on a disambiguation page. I would also submit that a link to British Isles (terminology) might be useful here too. MartinRobinson 21:44, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I belive that Northern Ireland should have its own bullet. I also propose that flag icons be added to the disambiguation, as per my suggestion in Talk:Ireland
Example:


Ireland may refer to:


Wiki01916 03:20, 9 October 2006 (GMT)
Flags are unnecessary for disambiguation pages and, in my opinion, frankly superfluous. And I do not think Northern Ireland requires a distinct bullet: we are disambiguating instances of Ireland (i.e., state and island, not necessarily listing everything with it in the title) -- Northern Ireland is discreet and not generally confused or taken to mean Ireland. See, for instance, America. (Cogito ergo sumo 20:56, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No it shouldn't, as, quite simply, no one uses `Ireland' to refer to the north alone. If you find evidence that they do, please change the article on Northern Ireland to read "Northern Ireland, also known as Ireland, is a part of..." and get consensus for that before adding it to this disambiguation page. I've also removed the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland for the same reason. I suspect Southern Ireland falls into a similar category.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley talk contrib 16:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Northern Ireland is a part

Straw poll of Republic of Ireland title change

I've opened a straw poll on support for a change to the title of the Republic of Ireland article and related articles. --sony-youthtalk 21:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed move to Ireland

Per Wikipedia naming policy and the disambiguation guideline, as well as following extensive discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles)/Ireland disambiguation task force and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles)/Ireland disambiguation task force, it is proposed that this page be moved to Ireland. This will enable these pages to accord with Wikipedia-wide policy as well as the opinion of most of the task force editors. waggers (talk) 11:39, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: While this move can't take place unless Ireland is moved, there is a parallel proposal to move Ireland to Ireland (island). If that fails, other alternative locations can be established for the current Ireland article - that need not affect the establishment of consensus for a move here. waggers (talk) 11:34, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]


This should be discussed at Talk:Ireland. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:06, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of this discussion was provided on Talk:Ireland on 30th October by Angus so all editors there have had time to participate. --Snowded TALK 12:21, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but this is yet another request, not the same one as in October. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:23, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Have you looked at Talk:Ireland? Particularly [1] and [2], not to mention this? waggers (talk) 13:36, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly support per Una Smith: "An ambiguous title such as Ireland should be a disambiguation page, because it is Ireland that will accumulate incoming links needing disambiguation and the task of disambiguating them is made vastly more difficult if Ireland also has "correct" incoming links that refer to one topic by that name." -- Evertype·✆ 19:04, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that it's only common courtesy to inform them. Scolaire (talk) 22:17, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have also informed Wikipedia:WikiProject Northern Ireland, they have an interest in the island too, after all. Rockpocket 01:21, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - if it does then it will be contrary to consensus, policy and every Wiki-norm and will be (1) a triumph for WP:BIAS and (2) a never-ending source of controversy and disruption. It is simply wrong. Utterly and totally wrong. Just how many times, in how many different places must we reach the same conclusion before somebody decides to be WP:BOLD and actually apply policy and consensus? (That someone is preferably not me, but most assuredly will be me if this filibustering does not cease). Sarah777 (talk) 01:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Point of information: it most assuredly will not be you, Sarah, unless you plan an RfA anytime soon. You don't have the necessary buttons, I'm afraid. Rockpocket 01:56, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
S*it! Sarah777 (talk) 02:13, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the two-way action here. Wikipedia policy dictates that Ireland should be the disam page. Without anything better agreed on, we should follow policy. It will immediately sort out the countless thousands of "Ireland" links that go the Ireland island article, when the writer meant the Republic of Ireland, or the state. They will now point to a disam page, which will be fine. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Realistically speaking, this move discussion is dependent on the other one at Talk:Ireland#Proposed move to Ireland (island). Because you can't move this article over another one if there is no consensus for the other once to move elsewhere (especially as the other is much higher profile). I would suggest putting a moratorium on this until the other discussion is resolved. Rockpocket 01:16, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"moratorium" ? For how many more years? Sarah777 (talk) 02:18, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article now a disambiguation page

Ireland now is a disambiguation page. Other articles affected in this renaming include:

--Una Smith (talk) 15:48, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some additions / changes:

I would remove the list of people named John Ireland; just link to that dab page. --Una Smith (talk) 16:34, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:SELF and WP:D

I will revert the page to the status quo protect it if the above policies are breached regarding the Republic of Ireland. It's just not open to negotation as the policy is clear. It would be far more productive to get the appropriate Ireland (state) page move than to pretend it's already happened by piping and forking the content, would it not? No wonder the move never happens... --Jza84 |  Talk  22:01, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reorder of opening parag

I've re-ordered the opening parag. I think it's fairer now (and as things currently stand, certianly). Re the new parag heading: I favour using 'Irish nation' when referring to Ireland across history. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:36, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A nation is a social group, not a state. But, eitherway I protected this for one week. I wasn't confident that my warning above would not provoke shuffles, but that's that. If only the same editors would focus their efforts on facilitating a change in article title, they might make progress with their objections.
We're not piping Republic of Ireland, nor are we self-referencing Wikipedia. If anybody wants to change that they need to change policy first. --Jza84 |  Talk  22:58, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But 'accross history' Ireland wasn't always a state - do you see my point? I didn't think it got out of hand (just variations being tried), but there we go. Editors are getting very frustrated here - we are actually meant to edit! --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:21, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am really very unhappy that my good faith edits were summarily reverted. Why did I bother? -- Evertype·✆ 00:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article is now protected and I cannot edit it. Bah. -- Evertype·✆ 00:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unprotect request and revised Intro

Can we now expolre this?

Ireland commonly refers to:

This fully disambiguates now, IMO. Matt Lewis

———— Well, I'd have to say that I dislike the redundancy there. I prefer: Ireland may refer to:

The island has formerly been subject to a number of political arrangements (arranged in reverse chronological order):

  • Irish Free State, the name, from 1922 to 1937, of the state comprising 26 of Ireland's 32 counties
  • Irish Republic, the unilaterally declared independent state between 1919 and 1922, also sometimes wrongly used to describe the current state
  • Southern Ireland, the 26-county Irish state envisaged by the Government of Ireland Act 1920
  • United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the name of the state that Ireland formed part of between 1801 and 1922
  • Kingdom of Ireland, the name given to the Irish state from 1541, by an act of the Parliament of Ireland
  • Lordship of Ireland, a nominally all-island Irish state created in the wake of the Norman invasion of the east coast of Ireland in 1169
  • Gaelic Ireland, the political order that existed in Ireland prior to the Norman invasion

Surely that is sufficient? Let's not play games about the dominant order (trying to put the State above the Island). Note the link for RoI goes to the 1948 Act article. I think I have addressed most of the concerns here. -- Evertype·✆ 17:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We found that state use (not geographical use) is the dominant use on Wikpedia. I don't see the point in using "may" any more - this is main page now for both articles. Putting the island first means duplicating the state in an awkward way. (PS you can see the 'sign' from the history list - I'm not playing games as I'm sure you know (I'm just very busy!)) --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:06, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You know, it may be the "dominant" use on the Wikipedia, but that doesn't mean that it is right to rank it this way. For one, it will annoy some people. Please let us be gracious. For another, the island is the superset and the two political units found within it. The way I arranged is not all that awkward; "'Ireland (state), an independent state" does not seem more awkward to me than repeating Ireland (state) twice. You are right about "may". -- Evertype·✆ 17:12, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New political map of Ireland graphic

I've update the graphic

Political map of the island of Ireland showing Ireland and Northern Ireland

Can we get it in? --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:13, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please sign your posts. And that's an awful graphic in any case. -- Evertype·✆ 17:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please change your tone. It's genuinely distressing to me that you have started this with this attitude - people have been working for this change for a long time. --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:13, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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