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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Eloquence (talk | contribs) at 00:02, 3 March 2004. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Today is Saturday, June 28, 2025; it is now 14:25 (UTC)

See Wikipedia FAQ for general questions about Wikipedia; you can ask questions at the Village pump.

Subsections of the page have been moved into the MediaWiki namespace to make them editable. See Wikipedia:Editing the main page.

See also: Wikipedia:Editing the main page

Discussion

  • Firstly, thanks for all the work that went into the new main page. It is lovely and an asset to the project; it draws attention to parts of Wikipedia that really needed it; and above all, it's fun. I caught the featured article in the middle of being switched, and for a moment I thought someone had implemented a randomizer for the "featured" section of the main page- I was so excited about that, for a moment I entirely forgot my pain:
  • Secondly, Ouch! Here I was been so pleased with the quiet beauty and efficiency of the previous main page, I'd been shouting its praises to the whole world... it was, in fact, the reason I decided to finally get an account and spend time here. Does it still exist somewhere outside of a "page history" archive? If so, could you put a prominent link to the old version on the current Main Page? I'm sure I don't represent the majority of visitors, but I assume there's at least one old-timer who liked it the way it was; it had a coherent beauty that can only come from much attention.
  • Thirdly, a suggestion: what I'd really like to see, since no main page pleases everyone, is a user-prefs flag letting one self-identify as a newbie, and a user-prefs textbox that lets you enter the title of the page you want to be your "Main Page", linked from the icon and sidebar. Then a) only newbies would have to see those community-page sexns that others won't need, and b) you could split the obviously separable sections of the main page into different [[MediaWiki:{{{1}}}]] es, allowing a small number of maintainers to maintain a large number of final page-layouts. +sj+
  • Finally, regarding the current layout: please conserve screen space at the top of the page. Currently, the top three content items are 1) an intro that will get old the tenth time one sees it, 2) msg:opentask which was never intended for such expensive screen space, and 3) msg:totd, which will both get old for many viewers before it changes and takes up too much space. Suggestion II: (1) reduce intro to a very short, cordial note (I took a stab), (2) either change msg:opentask's format everywhere, or create a special version of it for this page [no icon/smaller icon in the "Open Tasks" header, no bullets, tasks selected in part for their condensability into 2-3 words], (3) reduce to ~50 words with a (read more...) link, and (4) move all of the chatty cells like msg:totd, "are you a newbie?", etc to one side, leaving the other free for cells/groups of high-density links. If you worry about "too many links" on the page, you might consider making better use of bold/italics and of color [of links(unused:green,orange), or of link-backgrounds(light shades of gray/yellow)]. +sj+ 11:34, 2004 Feb 24 (UTC)

Older Discussion

Good stuff, it really is all a bit of a maze of policies when you first arrive.  :) There should be a link to the sandbox front and center though, to encourage people to dabble (in the right place!). Should we say what creating an account involves (as little as picking a username and password, no scary commitment, and no spam, etc). The tip of the day is cute as well, we can explain the mystery of the four ~s for example.  :) /first impressions. fabiform | talk 13:40, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

By the way, at the top of my talk page I have a little link library I find useful. I'm sure other people do too on their userpages or in their bookmarks. Perhaps we should all nominate which we think are the most useful, and hard to find, links while editing wikipedia. I nominate: Wikipedia:Utilities, Wikipedia:Boilerplate text, Wikipedia:Writing resources, SAMPA chart for English (is SAMPA the officially favored way of producing pronunciation guides?), wiki simplified tables, Wikipedia:Extended image syntax, redirects (very mysterious when you're new!), and bad jokes. fabiform | talk 13:49, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
fabiform, be bold. I just was and reorginized the links and added a few. It felt good to do something I'll likely be barred from doing in a week or so when this page goes live and gets protected indefinatly. :~) Gentgeen 14:57, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I am trained not to edit pages that look like the main page. But just for you, I overcame my timidity and did a bit of (minor) bold editing.  :) fabiform | talk 16:20, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Just FYI, I don't think this page should ever be protected. The regular Main Page is protected only because of its high visibility.—Eloquence

I created two new sections, one for newbes, and one for the village pump seeing as these are common destinations for people not familiar with the site. What do you think? mydogategodshat 04:29, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'd prefer it to put additional emphasis on the already existing links to both.—Eloquence
But they are hard to find and give no explanation about what a village pump does. mydogategodshat 04:51, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I guess it is OK to have this stuff in the introduction section as long as there is some way of really making it stand out. mydogategodshat


I also added links to related communities. I don't know if this is the best place for these links, but I think they should be somewhere on the page. mydogategodshat 04:55, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Just one more thing, I don't see the Wiki-manual of style listed on the page. Do you think it should be? mydogategodshat

I think the links to the sister projects and other languages should go on the new Main Page, as they are more usefull for readers, most editors would have some idea that they exist already. Oh, and the Manual of style is in the links on the right side of the page. Gentgeen 11:38, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Maybe they should go on both seeing as they are both a navagation issue and a community issue? mydogategodshat 02:28, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I like this page too! There are just so many admin links that we can use now that I find it almost impossible to keep track, and this brings a lot of them into one neatly-organised place. Well done to everybody who's contributed to it so far. I think this will make a great pair of 'front pages' :) KJ 11:36, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Just as a warning, Main Page/Test is gathering support to go live soon, and this page kinda goes live at the same time. Any changes/improvements need to be completed soon so we're ready. Gentgeen 17:34, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the term "Readers Main Page". It sets up a false dichotomy between readers and writers. It deals with navigational issues, and is useful to writers as well as readers. What is wrong with calling it the "Main Page"? mydogategodshat

Can someone change the image for the todo list into a gif with a transparent background? I don't know how the current Image:Info bulb.png renders on other browsers, but on IE it has a muddy grey background, I think it would look a lot better if it were transparent, and IE doesn't support transparent gifs. Also, re column widths, if you look in the page history we've just tried 40/60%, 45/55% and 50/50%, which do people like best. On my browser, 45/55 is best, as the content fills the two columns equally. fabiform | talk 01:12, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Main Page replacement

A discusssion to replace the Main Page with Main Page/Test and Wikipedia:Main Page is currently going on at those two pages' talk pages. The current concensus is to make the change. Gentgeen 17:43, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

  • I like what is evolving. But I foresee an upcoming conflict. It looks as though both proposed pages are intending to "Go Live" soon. We need to put together a formal selection process that allows users to discuss and vote on: 1) Keep the current version, 2) Move to the Main Page/Test version, 3) Move to the Wikipedia:Main Page version. Kingturtle 19:40, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
If I've understood your comment, I don't think you realise what's being planned. The current main page will be replaced by both of the two pages linked above. There's a "readers main page" which will be the default - the page that visitors see when they arrive, designed to help people use wikipedia as a resource, and also a "community main page" which will be used in parallel, designed to be useful to longterm contributors, but also to encourage people to contribute, and to help them make their first edits pain-free. Does that make sense?  :) fabiform | talk 19:59, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I understand what you are saying. Still, shouldn't there be a user-wide discussion about this, and possibly a vote about this? This is a major change that will affect all users. Kingturtle 20:18, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I blanketly oppose any major change of the main page until it is taken to a proper vote. Also, I'd like to say that while Main Page/Test looks good, it also looks like it's very high maintence. And Wikipedia:Main Page is just plain ugly. →Raul654 20:23, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)
Raul, on Wikipedia we try to avoid voting unless it is absolutely necessary. We try to seek consensus first. Right now there appears to be a consensus for using Main Page/Test. You are the first person who has expressed that Wikipedia:Main Page is "just plain ugly", would you care to elaborate on the talk page?—Eloquence 00:35, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)
Well, these replacement pages do seem to have appeared out of nowhere without any publicity. I was completely unaware of the proposed changes until this item appeared on the pump, and it looks like the proposers are getting ready to impliment them. I do have a feeling of being railroaded here. It's very easy to achieve consensus if you don't tell people something is proposed! I'm in two minds about these designs, myself. -- Arwel 01:56, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It's just plain ugly. There's also not consensus on this over at the discussions - methinks you've been paying more attention to those agreeing and not paying enough attention to those saying it is worse (and needs work and similar). I've asked for a vote over there so we get some better idea for the number of people, other than those who developed it, who think it's better than what we have now. Jamesday 10:11, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It's just plain ugly. Please elaborate on which parts of the page you think are "ugly".—Eloquence
How do concerned wikipedians get to know about the discussion? Is it enough with this announcement on the Village pump? Personally, I think that's much more important issue than voting or the interpretation of a voting. The community front page is a great idea, though.--Ruhrjung 22:05, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
We will be able to find out about discussions and polls from this page if it ever gets implemented.mydogategodshat
I am in favour of the change in theory. The split is sensible and a more visually appealing and easy to navigate front page is, I think, essential to make Wikipedia a usable resource for those people who aren't also interested in editing. The proposed main page might be high maintenance, but as I won't be someone maintaining it that doesn't bother me. I do think that any of the current maintainers should think carefully about this before agreeing to the change though.
Regarding the community page, I agree with →Raul654 in that it is horribly cluttered and likely to frighten off any new contributors almost straight away (actually, that's my interpretation of what he means by 'plain ugly'). As a regular contributor I also know that I wouldn't use it as a jump station for my common activities. It isn't ready to go live yet - don't be hasty! --HappyDog 02:37, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

All main pages seem ugly to me

All main pages, Main Page, Main Page/Test and Wikipedia:Main Page seem ugly to me. The reason is the use of tables which result in making the life difficult to users who have low screen resolution or doesn't like having maximised browser windows. Optim 02:33, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Man I've just had about 8 edit conflicts in a row chasing this article from the Village Pump, with Optim one step ahead all the way :) -- finally got my oar in though! Anyway, regarding Optim's comments I think that in the long term Wikipedia needs to look good to a web-savvy public. This may not be an issue yet but at some point we need to be an encyclopedia for the public who want Information but don't care about contributing. Whereas most sites suffer from style over content, WP is currently a bit too far in the other direction. I'm not suggesting anything particularly flash (sic) but if you're ruling out tables then really you might as well ask for a plain text site, which is really not going to help! --HappyDog 02:43, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Plain vanilla main page

See Wikipedia:Plain vanilla main page. Optim 02:54, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Why this page is confused

I've been looking at this page for about 10 minutes, trying to figure out what is wrong with it, and I've realised that the problem is that we don't know what we want it to be.

If it is here for new users, to explain the site, to help then become contributors and to provide a central source of information then it is far too detailed and cluttered. It should instead focus on the common beginner questions, with headings for Getting Started, Advanced Editing and Procedures and Policies, each with a bit of text and a small set of the 3 or 4 most useful links, with maybe a link to more information... like the sections on the proposed Main Page.

If it is aimed at existing community members then it should contain some additional useful information - pages needing work, requests for assistance, current issues (e.g. New main page proposal - feedback requested) and a few carefully selected community links (e.g. village pump). It doesn't need many though, after all the side bar gives me pretty much all of the pages I currently view. Currently my Wikipedia bookmark goes straight to my watchlist. For me to use this page it would need to be at least as useful as my watchlist!

Either way, there is no use in having a massive links list as a top-level navigation page. --HappyDog 03:07, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I disagree. Currently there is no way to navigate the huge jungle of links in the Wikipedia: namespace -- there is no central overview page of these links. It is only logical that Wikipedia:Main Page should provide a way to reach all pages in the Wikipedia: namespace, either through an overview page or directly. If this page is cluttered, it means that we need more overview pages, not that the approach is wrong.
I do agree that having a separate section for current issues would probably be a good idea.—Eloquence 03:11, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)

I agree that some sort of overview pages are required, and we already have Wikipedia:Community_Information_Directory. But I strongly feel that this shouldn't be the first page people see when they come to the site (or when they go to the 'community' section if that's how it'll work). Just have a link to the full directory instead, and make the page useful in its own right - and I think there is a lot of scope for making this the first port of call, rather than your watchlist. If this was already the case then everyone would have seen this discussion, rather than a load of people (such as myself) joining it when an announcement on the Village Pump says that a concensus has already been reached! --HappyDog 03:18, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I fail to see the contradiction. There's no reason why this page shouldn't have useful current information (it already has the tip of the day and the list of open tasks) and a reasonably complete directory of pages in the Wikipedia: namespace.—Eloquence 03:31, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)
I share happydog's concern that newbies will have difficulty finding the links that they want in amongst all this clutter. However I don't think a separate Newbie Page is the answer. We could have a newbie section near the top of this page. mydogategodshat 04:18, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I am wondering if the phrase "Here are some open tasks:" is needed? mydogategodshat

Yup. This is part of MediaWiki:opentask, which is also used as part of many new user welcoming messages.—Eloquence 04:22, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)
I prefer "We would like your opinion" to "Current issues" for the same reason that I like "Things you can do" to "Articles needing attention". In both cases the former has a friendlier tone. Can the New editors section be condensed? mydogategodshat
How about "Get involved"?—Eloquence
Much better. I hate to be a pest, but what would it look like if the light bulb was slightly bigger, and in the top right hand corner of that box? mydogategodshat
On my screen the lightbulb and the clipboard are in the same vertical position -- I like that a lot. Does it look different on your screen? We can't scale up the lightbulb as it's a bitmap graphic and it would get pixelized.—Eloquence 06:38, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)
Could we please make the lightbulb background not clash with the page background? Is it supposed to be transparent? It isn't on IE. fabiform | talk 14:58, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It's transparent on Mozilla. I don't know how to make it IE-compatible. User:Brion VIBBER has done that a few times, maybe you should ask him.—Eloquence 19:03, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)
I re-uploaded it. Is it ok now? Angela. 19:11, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)
Ah, perfect. Thanks Angela. I asked Brion to do it yesterday (as well as the magnifying glass on the thumbnails, which is now fixed). That's what prompted all the questions about it on your talk page Eloquence.  :) fabiform | talk 20:28, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Major probs with this page and IE6 and Cologne Blue skin

This page has major overlapping problems with this combination. Most people use IE6!! ChrisG

OK, I've done my best to fix this by adding some more white space. It now looks good to me in Cologne Blue using IE6 - tell me if it's still bad for you. Note to others, please don't take the extra blank lines and top-padding out; it's needed badly in the above combination.  :) fabiform | talk 02:56, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Looks much better in general but still huge overlaps of text with:

  • Resources and Incentives
  • Frequently Asked Questions
  • Boxes and Boilerplates
  • Content Categorisation
  • and need a little more white space above Things you can do which doesn't seem to above the column beside it.

Did people change it after your edits? Everything else is okay, though a tiny bit cramped, but that will muck up the behaviour with other browsers I imagine so I wouldn't change it anymore. ChrisG 21:07, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Could you do upload a screenshot to show people who might know (better than me) how to fix it? Cheers, fabiform | talk 21:29, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Looks fine to me except the headers are a bit on the big side. --Brion 10:38, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Problems with dual mainpage system

Just a really simple problem - but no simple solution: What is "the" wikipedia mainpage, now? I see myself mostly as a contributor at the moment, not as a reader. So the best mainpage to link to in my shortcuts would be the "Wikipedia:Main Page". But if I use this to open Wikipedia by default, I'll miss things like current news etc. I like to see. The old main page allowed both without being to cluttered (in my opinion). Now I have to chose one or the other, and that is a problem. -- till we *) 20:14, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I had this same thought myself, tillwe, but I realized that in two weeks I won't even really think about it--I'll go to the "reader page" first and then jump to the "contributor" page in a couple moments if nothing strikes my fancy. So, I guess my advice would be that if we wait a week or so, we may find ways of resolving early concerns (which I have a few of, but I'm adopting the waiting stance, anyway). Jwrosenzweig 21:35, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Would it help to have the Wikipedia:Main Page in the quickbar? Or is having a link from the other Main Page enough? Angela. 21:50, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)
I think another link in the quickbar would be overkill. I have to admit I kind of like the idea of having to go through the regular Main Page first. This exposes it to much peer review.—Eloquence
I agree with Angela. I don't think it's overkill....when I want to surf to the Mailing lists page, I don't want to have to jump through the user main page every single time when all I really want is the W:MP. I'll give the Main Page plenty of peer review -- I think it would be much more efficient to add W:MP to the quickbar. I'd go so far as to say that it could replace Current Events, which I frankly have never used. I'm sure some do, but I'm suggesting it as a way of limiting how many links are in the quickbar, if that's Eloquence's concern. Jwrosenzweig 21:57, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
By the way, shouldn't we move the community page to Community Main Page or Wikipedia:Community Main Page? And should it be an option in our preferences which main page we want to visit when we click the wikipedia logo?
Many people would strongly disagree with removing current events (myself included). If you want it in the sidebar, we'll have to come up with a solution that 1) doesn't waste space, 2) doesn't eliminate any important links.
Regarding the title, I think Wikipedia:Main Page is great, because it is a good example for the namespace concept in action -- the same page in different namespaces has different purposes.—Eloquence
But wouldn't Wikipedia:Community Main Page work just as well for that. I find it a bit odd seeing the title of the page as "Wikipedia:Main Page" and then the first line reading "welcome to the Community Main Page" we normally repeat the article title in bold. fabiform | talk 22:27, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I knew suggesting CE was a bad move...well, frankly I don't think one more link will hurt. I know I'd find it useful, especially if I'm accessing from slower dialup...sometimes waiting for a page to load with several thumbnails (like the Main Page) is annoying. I like the title Wikipedia:Main Page and agree that it is exactly what namespace is supposed to do. In summary, I don't think adding Community Main (or however we can shorten the name acceptably to make it fit the quickbar) "wastes space"....frankly I think it a very good use of space. After all, we expect that contributors will use WP:MP more often than MP, simply because WP:MP navigates to more useful pages -- if that's why we had a link to the one MP in the past, I don't see why linking to both MPs (now that they've separated) is a "waste". Just my 2 cents, Jwrosenzweig 22:07, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

J, I agree that such a link would be useful. I'm concerned, however, that it might make part of the sidebar invisible in the lower resolutions. This is especially problematic when the sidebar is in "floating" mode (a user preference), where you can't scroll to see the parts which are invisible. With the sysop links the vertical sidebar is already pretty huge. I really think we're on the limit in terms of vertical length.

Something like Main Page (2) would work space-wise, but be rather unintuitive.

Caching problems didn't allow me to see the answers ... argh. Anyways, I'd like a dual Mainpage link in the sidebar, but maybe Main Page / W:MP would be more intuitiv. -- till we *) 22:43, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hey, here's an idea. How about making the logo point to the community main page, and the Main Page link to the regular one?—Eloquence 22:13, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)

I like that idea, but I think the other way round would be more intuitive. People expect the logo to link to the Main Page, and the Main Page is still more of the main page than the Community Main Page is, so I think the logo should point there. Angela. 22:41, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)
I agree, it's a good idea. But it should be the way round that Angela suggests, it's definately more intuitive (for me, at least). fabiform | talk 22:45, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I think the best idea would be to make it a user option 'Main Page links to Community Page', defaulting to no for new users, but customisable for those of us who more often want to go to the community page. The graphic should, I think, always go to the Main Page, but this could either be controlled from the same setting or from a different setting if that is more useful to others. --HappyDog 23:25, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I like a link in the left-hand sidebar; you can tell I like it because I suggested it right at the beginning for the new main reader's page design. :-) "If we added a sidebar link under Main Page to Contributors' Page Contributor Help or some such, I could still get there with just a click. " (I, also, have never used the Current events link until just this moment to see what it did.) Elf 00:24, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

If you go there frequently, just add the page to your bookmark toolbar! Perl 02:35, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Tip o' the day.....or Tip o' the week

Do we have people willing to change this everyday? Maybe it should be weekly? Kingturtle 23:51, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have plenty of tips. I think I can handle it. We'll see.—Eloquence

Why is this page called Main page rather than Community Main Page? It is confusing with two Main pages. 152.163.252.195

  • I agree. The Community Main Page should just be called the Community Page. Kingturtle 01:54, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I disagree. It is more logical for the community Main Page to be in the Wikipedia: namespace. It's a good way for newbies to learn the meaning of namespaces. The fact that this comment was made by an anonymous user demonstrates that.—Eloquence 01:58, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Eloquence. — Perl 02:10, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'm going to suggest Wikipedia:Community Main Page for the third and final time. After that I'll get the hint that no one likes this idea and not mention it again.  ;) fabiform | talk 02:36, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Agree with Fabiform. mydogategodshat 02:48, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)


Should be a redirect. Done.—Eloquence

quickbar

A button for "Community Main Page" should be placed between the "Main Page" button and the "Recent changes" button on the quickbar. Kingturtle 03:56, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree, a button like "Community page" should be in the bar. Also, "Current events" is not necessary since the Main Page is in fact 90% current events, and not much more than that. I still do not like the fact that this community info is so hard to find, but that's another battle. Fuzheado 04:21, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Agreed, button to this page would be useful. Also agree that the main page (not this main page) is starting to look more like a news magazine than an encyclopedia. mydogategodshat 04:24, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Same with me (button and not-so-cool news magazine look), but see discussion two above. -- till we *) 09:01, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Let me say this more forcely....We need to have a button on the quickbar for the Community Page. Kingturtle 20:10, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Zap moving pages

Since Zap's been moving things around, WP:Main Page has been moved to Community Page... I don't really mind the new name all that much, but we should be all going through consensus decisions first, so you can express views on a possible move to a new name here. Dysprosia 11:27, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have protected this page

A vandal fiddled with it, and I decided that we probably want this main page protected semi-permanently, just like the main page. If you disagree, please say so here. I will list this at Wikipedia:Protected page also. Thanks. :) Jwrosenzweig 23:22, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree -- at least until a while has passed since the press release went out. Otherwise we should create an informal team to watch it. -- BCorr ¤ Брайен 23:26, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I disagree. Lots of pages get vandalised. There's no huge danger if this one is. This page is lower traffic than the main page. Further, those reading it will already be aware that Wikipedia is a wiki. Duly unprotected. Martin 00:02, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I respect your disagreement, but I disagree with you, Martin (a rare thing). :) I won't re-protect though....obviously we can handle the vandalism here for the time being (though I admit I would like not to have to be vigilant here long-term). I guess I would just like to have the main information accessible to potential new editors. If I want to contribute and hit "Community Main Page" to find out more and see "jack iz gay" or similar vandal nonsense, I probably give up then. At least give first-timers a chance to see all the different places and aspects of Wikipedia. As it stands, they couldn't find "how to edit a page" or any of the other useful things if the page is vandalized (previously the protected main page allowed this access). This will be lower traffic than the main page, I agree. But it will be proportionately much higher trafficked by those who want to contribute. Shouldn't that have protection? Jwrosenzweig 00:15, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Let's try it in unprotected mode a little while longer to gauge how big the problem is, OK?—Eloquence
Makes sense. I guess I figured once in two days of this setup was a bad omen, but you're right, my sample is too small. :-) I'll wait and see a while. Jwrosenzweig 00:46, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Recall that the vandalism lasted precisely two minutes. Martin 00:58, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
True, true. For that matter, though, we could unprotect Main Page. I guess I don't see a huge difference between the two, and as I support protecting MP, I support protecting W:MP. But if 2 intelligent experienced fellows like you and Eloquence disagree, well, I have to assume I'm in a minority position. :-) Just wanting to make my position heard, is all. Jwrosenzweig 01:03, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I see no reason to protect it. Unlike the main page, this is going to be trafficked by regular users who've already seen all kinds of vandalism anyway and know how to deal with it - revert. Anthony DiPierro 07:08, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I have found that now that I can influence the main page (for instance), the wiki feels much better; I don't want to be feeling that I want to be sysop, just to be able to to central wikipedia tasks. I want this page unprotected, and I think that the current solution for the main page is a very good one. — Sverdrup (talk) 23:33, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Auto updates

Jdforrester had a great idea that I was able to make reality. I created MediaWiki:February 26 and referenced it via {{msg:{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}}_{{CURRENTDAY}}}} to get:

Template:June 28
Is that cool or what? For the selected anniv queue I'm going to use the naming syntax [[MediaWiki:Month day selected anniversaries]]. [[MediaWiki:Month tip of the day]] or even [[MediaWiki:Month day year tip of the day]] may be good for the tip of the day queue (if you decide to create one - although I think you would be daft not to! ;). --mav 06:55, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Alright, I get the idea that you like it.—Eloquence 06:56, Feb 26, 2004 (UTC)

Cleaning up Wikipedia namespace

Before the redesigned main page and community main page went live, User:168... created several directories of the Wikipedia namespace and backlinked them in a number of the pages listed in these directories. The directory pages include Wikipedia:Community Information Directory, Wikipedia:WikiCivics, Wikipedia:Policy Library, and Wikipedia:Style and How-to Directory. Since we have ample space now on the community main page, with links broken down into useful categories, I believe the primary functionality of these pages is no longer needed. I propose to convert them into redirects to the community page, and remove the backlinks that clutter the Wikipedia: pages. However, 168... objects to this. Please comment. --Michael Snow 23:00, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree 100%. These pages ware a bad idea to begin with. The titles are uninformative, and the backlinks are annoying.—Eloquence 03:26, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)
I object to the removal of these links. Please put them back in. Redirect them to the new community page. Until we get a Community Page button on the quickbar, these "backlinks" are useful to me. Kingturtle 23:26, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I agree that including the community page on the quickbar would be a better solution. I believe there has been some objection to that on the grounds that there's too much stuff there already. --Michael Snow 23:35, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Until that time, can we keep these "backlinks" and point them to the Community Page? Kingturtle 23:37, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
168... has now reverted my edits anyway, but I have changed the message to point to the community page. --Michael Snow 23:48, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have gotten more positive feedback about these directories than i have gotten negative feedback, and so it boggles my mind that Michael Snow or anybody else should consider it appropriate to simply dismantle the project without discussion with others. In fact, it pisses me off no end. The community page does not make these directories redundant. The community page is a visually busy and hard to use montage of directories with non-systematically named pages and less natural groupings. The backlinks are vital to ease of use. I don't care what it looks like or what the names are. But something functional like this will make a HUGE difference to the navigability of the meta pages and to the problem of redundancy, which happens in part because people don't know what other existing pages touch on the same theme that they're writing about.168...|...Talk 23:55, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

  • It is true. I have been very pleased with the 'backlink' in question. I use it many times a day. Kingturtle 23:58, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
No argument about Kingturtle's satisfaction with it, but I thought the suggestion above was even better. There was considerable objection when 168... created this project several weeks ago, and I don't think it was necessarily resolved. At this point, we should probably move the dispute resolution process on to a poll. --Michael Snow 00:03, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The "considerable objection" was primarily from ignorant hot-heads, at least one of whom (Taku) has recanted. They misunderstood the goal and didn't like the nomenclature. The goal has since become clear to those who have tried to grasp it, and the names of the pages have changed, and are still open to change, and so the initial objections appear to have been addressed, if one only cares to open one's eyes to look. I might note that there was considerable objection at first to voting rights for women. People don't always make the best decision at first glance and without discussion.168...|...Talk 02:00, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Now that the community portal has been added to the sidebar, I believe that fills the functionality provided by the backlinks. I maintain my objection to the backlinks as clutter that makes the pages in the Wikipedia namespace more difficult to read and use. Therefore, I intend to create a poll on this talk page and link it through msg:communitypage by adding a parenthetical statement like: (Whether you find this backlink useful or cluttering, please [[vote in the poll]].) --Michael Snow 00:02, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Maybe we could take the contents of Wikipedia:Community Information Directory and place it in MediaWiki:Community...and then place {{msg:community}} in the Wikipedia:Main Page. Kingturtle 00:34, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Most of those contents are already present on the community main page, so that doesn't really seem helpful. That's part of why I consider those pages redundant. Putting the community main page in the quickbar is a much more elegant solution. --Michael Snow 00:46, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Feedback link on every page

We could really use a feedback link at the top/bottom of each page, which runs an appopriate script

Say, gives the users an edit page that appends a comment to the end of a new Feedback page? to the MediaWiki bug report/feature request page? to the top of a "Cleanup (raw)" page? and pre-fills in what page they were on when they clicked the link, a user/timestamp, and what their prefs settings are

The problem: often I encountered a problem with WP ("what links here" fxnality breaking, the sidebar working in an unexpected fashion, a key page obviously missing (but I'm unclear where to put it), a kind of debate/interaction that makes me want to go away and not come back for a few months -- and there's no obvious or appropriate way to express my observation. Making it easier for users to provide feedback is important to making the project better, and to better serving/hearing from a reliable cross-section of its audience. +sj+ 09:20, 2004 Feb 27 (UTC)

Featured Article is static

Why is Featured article stuck on Bible codes? There appears to be a successor article in the queue. Selected anniversaries changes daily, why not Featured article? 169.207.89.21 11:14, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

try holding down ctrl and click refresh(F5) to refresh it. Perl 15:22, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Visibility poll

Should we add a prominent link to Wikipedia:Community Portal and if so, where?

Sidebar, and keep all other links

Votes in favor:

  1. Kingturtle 06:57, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  2. James F. (talk) 07:51, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  3. Jiang
  4. Seth Ilys
  5. Jrincayc 20:11, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC) But I would recommend calling it the Community Page instead of Wikipedia:Main Page since that is harder to distinquish.
  6. Gaz 13:58, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC) and make the name "Community Portal" or just "Community"
  7. PMA 12:39, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)
  8. Sam Spade 19:39, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC) on the main page, please
  9. Minesweeper
  10. Elf 23:21, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC) (but, if we have to remove something, I've also expressed preferences below)

Votes against:

  1. —Eloquence 01:18, Feb 28, 2004 (UTC)
  2. Michael Snow 02:17, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  3. — Sverdrup (talk) 09:08, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  4. Angela (unless a link such as related changes is removed)
  5. Taku 03:30, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)
  6. Warofdreams

Arguments against:

  • Sidebar is already very tall, especially for sysops, and making it any longer will break it in low resolutions, especially when "floating" mode is enabled in prefs and scrolling to invisible parts becomes impossible.
    • Could someone make a screenshot so I know what it looks like in low res, and floating mode? Kingturtle 20:37, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
      • Certainly: 800x600 give or take the odd window border. Note the absence of any way to go "below the window frame". The more we add, the less people can use this viewing mode. - IMSoP 00:37, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    • Pesky Floating-mode. I see. How many 800x600 users are out there? Is that something we can pick out with stats? Can we tell 800x600 users not to use float mode? Kingturtle 23:13, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sidebar, and remove current events link

Votes in favor:

  1. Sidebar contents need to be cut back, but community page needs to be included. Special pages link could go instead, in my opinion. Michael Snow 02:17, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  2. Jiang
  3. Taku 03:30, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)
  4. Timwi 14:01, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC) (good idea, and then link to Current Events from Wikipedia:Community Portal)
  5. +sj+ 18:45, 2004 Feb 29 (UTC)
  6. Minesweeper
  7. Warofdreams
  8. Elf 23:23, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Votes against:

  1. James F. (talk) 07:51, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  2. Angela
  3. Perl
  4. mav - current events is a very important page - it helps keep the encyclopedia up-to-date.

Arguments against:

  • Current events is already very important to lots of people and receives 30-40 edits a day.
    • It receives this many edits and goes way beyond its 32kb limit because it is linked. Is is not necessary to link it. --Jiang
    • Besides, you can go to there from the new main page now. Just two clicks away.
      • Same for this page. --mav

Replace Wikipedia logo link to Main Page with link to Wikipedia:Community Portal

Votes in favor:

  1. —Eloquence 01:18, Feb 28, 2004 (UTC)
  2. James F. (talk) 07:51, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  3. Jiang
  4. Taku 03:30, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)
  5. Warofdreams

Votes against:

  1. — Sverdrup (talk) 09:05, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  2. Angela
  3. Seth Ilys 19:42, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  4. Gaz 14:07, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  5. Timwi 14:10, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  6. +sj+ 18:45, 2004 Feb 29 (UTC)
  7. Minesweeper
  8. Elf 23:23, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Arguments against:

  • Confusing to have a logo that says Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia link to the community page instead of the encyclopedia page.
    • Oh, absolutely agreed! That's an internet standard. Elf 23:23, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • A logo link should link to the bottom of the hierarchy, i.e. the Main Page, everything else is confusing. For consistency, we should not have some links as images and some as text.

Keep Wikipedia logo link to Main Page and replace Main Page link with link to Wikipedia:Community Portal

Votes in favor:

  1. Main page also has a link using text at the top and bottom, anyway. Michael Snow 02:17, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  2. I am pro making the sidebar a tool for those who like to read the WP:MP — Sverdrup (talk) 09:08, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  3. Angela
  4. I agree with Michael's reasoning. Jwrosenzweig 02:51, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  5. There are too many links to Main Page now. BTW we can make all sidebar lookout changeable in preferences. Different people need different sidebars. ilya 21:26, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  6. Minesweeper
  7. My preferred option Warofdreams

Votes against:

  1. James F. (talk) 07:51, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  2. Seth Ilys 19:42, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  3. Taku 03:30, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)
  4. Gaz 14:07, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  5. Timwi 14:10, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC) (too confusing/inconsistent)
  6. Too confusing/inconsistent. but I do thing the "Main Page' link could be dprioritized a bit -- perhaps make the first line in the side bar "Main | Random page" instead? The 'Main' might be confusing the first time or two, but there *are* 3 other links to it from each page. And this would save a line in the sidebar.
  7. Elf 23:24, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Arguments against:

  • I need an immediate way to main page like recent changes.
  • My second-most-used link; even though logo goes there, this one is more obvious to everyone


Sidebar, and remove related changes link

Votes in favor:

  1. Kingturtle 18:21, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  2. Angela
  3. Elf 23:24, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Votes against:

  1. 'Related changes' is a marvelous concept, and *extremely* useful for tracking edits for any active subject (and more and more subjects are becoming 'active'); I didn't realize what it was for for over a week, despite its location. Keep; perhaps bold. +sj+ 18:45, 2004 Feb 29 (UTC)
  2. Warofdreams

Arguments for:

  • This already occurs at the bottom of each page anyway.

Sidebar, and remove Special pages

Votes in favor:

  1. Special pages is (or could easily be) duplicated on the Portal page. -- Kimiko 17:21, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  2. Michael Snow 22:51, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC) (See my vote re:current events above)
  3. Warofdreams
  4. Special pages is duplicated on the Portal page. -- Kimiko 17:21, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Votes against:

  1. Angela. No! That's the only place the special pages link occurs.
  2. —Eloquence 00:02, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC) (essential link for advanced users)

It's already on the sidebar as Main Page and the content belongs at Main Page:

Votes in favor:

  1. Jamesday

Votes Against:

  1. Prefer the separated main and community pages. Michael Snow 22:51, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  2. Ditto. Elf 23:26, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  3. Angela

Don't add Community Page to side bar. Instead, add it to the TitleLinks (top bar)

Votes in favor:

  1. Kingturtle 23:13, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  2. Angela (this is the best option)

Votes against:

  1. —Eloquence 00:02, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC) (I don't want to push away the new messages notification which may appear in this space)


I'd rather the Main Page link be changed to the Wikipedia:Main Page as there is already a link to the Main Page at the top, and the logo is a link to the Main Page as well. If somehing has to be removed from the sidebar, I'd prefer to remove the related changes link as that is linked to from the bottom of the page already. Current events isn't linked to elsewhere on the page, so that link should stay. Angela. 13:35, Feb 28, 2004 (UTC)

The sidebar is at a location more accessible than the top bar. Why not move current events, which is much less important, to the top if it is to be kept at all? --Jiang 02:37, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Move "Random page" into the body of the new look Main Page, and allow space for both "Main Page" and "Community Portal" in the Quickbar. We could make a little feature of it below "Did you know...". - Gaz 14:13, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

This is now officially the most confusing poll ever, requiring us to indicate whether we want a sidebar link, top link, or no link because we only need one main page, and if a sidebar link, which of the myriad of possible permutations should we adopt? I can't even begin to contemplate voting. Jwrosenzweig 23:16, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Who coded the sidebar?

Because "Community Portal" points at a redirect, which is a bad idea, methinks. Should I be leaving a note for Tim or Erik or who? Jwrosenzweig 16:47, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What happened to current events????? The removal of current events link on the sidebar was made without consent from the Wikipedia community, and it should be added again! Perl 17:53, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)~

I absolutely agree. I have no need to have this link on my page, whereas I go to Current events every day. I don't want to have to type it into the Search bar, especially when the Search stops working again. RickK 03:33, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The above vote in no way shows a consensus for any of the suggestions. I am surprised action was taken so swiftly. I am curious what was seen as justification for the move. Kingturtle 22:58, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I am as surprised as Perl and Kt. I do have to admit I won't miss the current events link personally, but as at least some people will, I am surprised that it is gone so swiftly. Jwrosenzweig 00:02, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I like it. No opinion on process... BCorr ¤ Брайен 00:05, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)

I mean who made the change? Do we have any right to choose which links we like to see at the side bar but some guy whom no one has no idea who is can just change at his will? What the hell! -- Taku 00:28, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)
Eloquence did it by editing MediaWiki:Currentevents. There doesn't seem to be a way of avoiding the redirect, as the page title has to match what is written in the sidebar, and Wikipedia:Community Portal would be too long. The "Contact us" link can link directly to the Wikipedia namespace because there is MediaWiki:bugreports as well as MediaWiki:bugreportspage, but the current events link doesn't have an equivalent MediaWiki:currenteventspage. Angela. 01:00, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)
I'll add the required variable ASAP. In the meantime, feel free to revert the change if it annoys you, but it appears to reflect majority opinion in the poll.—Eloquence 02:25, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)
What poll came to the conclusion that we should remove the current events link? I missed it and I assume others have not gotten to vote either. Perl 19:03, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Scroll up a little way, the poll is just above this discussion. fabiform | talk 19:12, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Thanks Fabiform. This should have been discussed on the village pump. Users who don't use community page will probably not have this page on their watchlist! Perl 19:14, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
As a non-{sysop|admin} may I request that somebody revert the change - apart from being an ugly hack, I don't think it represents any degree of consensus, even amongst those who did get a chance to vote. [Meanwhile, I'll publicise the vote on the pump, as Perl suggested.] - IMSoP 19:36, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm pretty agnostic as to what, if anything, we should delete from the sidebar. However, I think it's abundantly clear that the community portal needs to be included. There's a strong demand for that, and only one vote against so far (which is really a vote to go back to the main page before the redesign). --Michael Snow 22:56, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Oh, I was so thrilled when it showed up briefly in the sidebar--I used it! I would continue to do so. Elf 23:28, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't think we should make the sidebar too different to how it is on the non-English Wikipedias. If I go to a Wikipedia in a language I don't speak, I want to be able to find the links to "special pages" or whatever by assuming they are in the same position as they are here. Adding the link to the top, next to the disclaimers one, would seem the best option as there is plenty of room for links there and it prevents anything needing to be removed. Angela. 23:41, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)

That's the place for the new message notification.—Eloquence
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