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An event mentioned in this article is a September 1 selected anniversary.

Archived at:

may the 50 million people who died in WWII, whether they were on the side of the axis or allies, rest in peace and may we learn from this war and never make the same mistake again R.I.P

Cost more than all other wars combined

I have added this in the intro. I knew this fact from one of my old high school History teachers, Mr. Charette, who was obsessed with World War II. A major source I have to cite on is History Channel. I would like to consider these two sources to be very reliable. See below for link:

http://www.historychannel.com/worldwartwo/?page=triumph5

My calculation for inflation from $1 trillion to about 10.5 trillion comes from "The inflation calculator"

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

Thanks, Brendon

Main Participants

Since there has been various frequent edits of the summary table's 'Main Participants', I created this subject to enable discussions of it.

My opinion on the list is neutrally based on the piecharts of World_War_II_casualties, which list the military casualties, which I believe is the best basis since "participants" indicates "voluntary" and civilian casualties are certainly not voluntary. According to the military casualties, the list should be as follows:

Allies

  1. Soviet Union
  2. China
  3. United States
  4. United Kingdom
  5. Yugoslavia
  6. France
  7. Poland

Axis

  1. Germany
  2. Japan
  3. Romania
  4. Hungary
  5. Italy
  6. Bulgaria
  7. -

Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 10:50, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There is, however, still the problem that placing Finland under the Axis powers isn't very fair. Or at least it needs an explanation that can't be given in the box. One idea would be to put it in brackets (possibly with an addition like 'see text'). Another solution would be to just list the countries with military casualties over 100.000. That would knock Finland off the list. And Bulgaria with a 'mere' 18.000 casualties (or 'deaths' - that's another dispute). But I don't know how to do that well. Filling in blanks for B6 and B7 works, but the right column then shifts, which doesn't look nice. So I just added two html-breaks, which is a workaround, but at least renders well. DirkvdM 12:15, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you, DirkvdM, Finland as Axis is not fair. Therefore I have changed my suggestion to exclude Finland. To make an empty entry in a template, use a '-' instead of blanks or spaces, then you don't have to add html-breaks. I will fix this now, don't worry. Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 13:08, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that if listing by military casualties produces this ordering, then we shouldn't be ordering by military casualties. If we explicitly said "this is a list in order of military casualites" then it would be OK, but "main participants" needs to work on more general criteria. As I said, anything that doesn't list the big three first gives the wrong impression. China was engaged mainly its own battle with Japan (and itself let's not forget - how many of its casualties were really because of the civil war?) and had relatively little global impact. The US had a relatively low casualty count, but its impact on the war was huge. Same with the UK.

While we are here, I frankly think the Yugoslav military casualty figures need to be looked at. I suspect that casualties during the long and brutal resistance war are included. Not wanting to play down the Yugoslav bravery or contribution at all, but we need some balence.

On the same subject the Commnwealth countries must get a mention, if not individually then collectively. Between them they fought in pretty much every part of the globe, on land sea and air, and from the beginning to the end. DJ Clayworth 15:17, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Someone above asked "what is the idea of the Big Three based on". Well, I'm not making the name up, it was a term used at the time (though it often referred to the leaders rather than their countries). It was the three countries that made the big decisions, and frankly that provided the bulk of the resources. When the Allies got together to decide on strategy, those were the three that came. To pretend that China somehow had a bigger impact on the war is making a serious dent in Wikipedia's credibility. DJ Clayworth 15:26, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Likewise Italy had significantly more strategic impact on the war than Romania. Here is what I suggest as the main participants.

Allies:

  1. Soviet Union
  2. USA
  3. UK & Commonwealth
  4. China
  5. France
  6. Poland

Axis:

  1. Germany
  2. Japan
  3. Italy
  4. Romania
  5. Hungary
  6. Bulgaria

DJ Clayworth 15:30, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This hangs much on the definition of what WWII was. A case can be made that Finland and China fought their own wars, which just happened to coincide with WWII. But then shouldn't Japan be left out as as well? I didn't question 'the Big Three' as a historical term. I just wondered if it was correct. Grouping the Commonwealth countries together doesn't make sense. They were (as they are) separate countries. You could just as well group North America together. Or all Anglophone countries. The US probably (though I don't really know this) helped more in terms of material support than in terms of troops (in which sense they were already involved from the 1930's). Which is of course also important. But then we move on dangerous ground because that would mean saying that any material support to a war automatically means participating in that war. And I think a lot of governments would deny that in many cases. The decisionmaking of course is also very important. I don't really know what makes more sense anymore, so I'll leave it (for now :) ). But putting the Big Three on top feels a bit too much like perpetuating a myth. That we really want it to be 'our war' and that we only include the USSR because leaving them out would be too big a lie even for the most diehard anti-communist. DirkvdM 08:04, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

China was essentially fighting only Japan (and itself), but Japan took on the US, UK, Australia, New Zealand and India at the very least, plus colonies of various other European nations. I agree with you that it would be ideal to list Commonwealth countries separately, but we only have a limited number of slots. I think what we have is a good compromise. We do have another article which goes into more detail. As for perpetuating the myth - well sometimes the thing everybody knows to be true turns out actually to be true. DJ Clayworth 13:27, 26 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I can't believe it! We finally got rid of the nonsense about major/main participants from Allies of World War II and now it shows up here! As I said there: how do you weigh (for example) the contribution of France, which (although it had a few million personnel for a few months) surrendered in mid-1940, and then made an imporatant but numerically limited contribution in the form of the resistance and Free France (less than half a million personnel by 1945)? How is that comparable (for example) to the contributions of Canada and Australia, both of which were involved from 1939 until 1945 and each had about one million people in uniform during that period? I think we should simply have links to the Allies and Axis in the battle box and leave it at that. The main particpants are mentioned in the article.Grant65 (Talk) 13:50, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

Well, the particupation list is at least improved, but we still have some problems. Listing France before US/UK gives a very strange impression, and we have 'UK and Commonwealth' listed as well as the individual commonwealth members. I'm going to move France, but I'll leave it to someone else do decide what we do about the Commonwealth. DJ Clayworth 17:48, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I would prefer to simply have it as "Allies" and "Axis" with no individual countries mentioned, since we can't possibly include a list of every country that made a contribution to either side (or both). That is what Allies of World War II and Axis Powers are for.
Secondly, if "Commonwealth" is listed then the listing of the UK is redundant, since the UK is simply one member of the Commonwealth of Nations among many. That was the whole point of the name "Commonwealth" (first used on 1926), as opposed to the "Empire". There is and was, technically, no such thing as the "British Commonwealth" and the Commonwealth has never been a military organisation. If British overseas territories, for whom the UK's declaration of war was binding, are what is meant then that is what the listing should say. Grant65 (Talk) 18:06, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Debated entry: The repatriation of Soviet soldiers

"The repatriation, pursuant to the terms of the Yalta Conference, of two million Russian soldiers who had come under the control of advancing American and British forces, resulted for the most part in their deaths." I am not sure what that means. Kingturtle 06:15, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This article suggests that repatriated Soviet prisoners of War were killed. There is no truth to this whatsoever. According to Alexander Kokurin and Nikita Petrov, a total of 312,000 Red Army personnel up to 1 March 1944 returned from captivity and were checked up by the NKVD. There clearly were traitors amongst the Red Army and thus it was imperative to interrogate them. However, only a miniscule fraction of them were actually met with repression. Of the 312,000, 72% returned to the Red Army; 2% were placed in the NKVD; 1.5% were sent to hospitals for medical care; .5% were sent to penal batallions; and 2.6% were arrested. (Anonymous entry by 66.149.246.200)

Well, AFAIR the biggest part of returned POWs arrived in the later period, that is in late 1944 and in 1945. Also, I've read (where? I can't remember) that the repression rate among those who returned was significantly higher than the 9,1% quoted above (and even if it was "only" 10%...). For instance, I've read that the majority of those who returned to the Red Army were sent to the farthest areas of Siberia, with no chance of returning to some better posts. Could anyone confirm? Halibutt 22:24, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
  • I have removed this debated entry since it seems we can not confirm it at this moment. The original entry remains however documented and saved here:

" The repatriation of two million Russian soldiers previously serving under Germany (pursuant to the terms of the Yalta Conference), who had surrendered to advancing American and British forces, resulted for the most part in their deaths. "

It would be good if more users with knowledge could assess this entry. Regards, Dennis Nilsson. --Dna-Dennis 22:42, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Resistance section

One of the criticisms of the WW2 page (why it failed as FA) was that it missed a section describing the "resistance". Since I could not find any (!) main article for resistance during WWII, I have created one: Resistance during World War II. I have added the introductory text to the WWII main article under a new section called "Resistance".

Please help by reviewing & expanding the main article Resistance during World War II and possibly the WWII main article section "Resistance"!

I am far from an expert on the resistance...

Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 15:56, 26 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]


>>I felt the reason it failed was because it touch to lightly on all the subjects concerning world war 2. I realise that ww2 was a historic event that can never be fully documented and that wikipedia hosts many in depth studies on various parts of the war, but this main portal article lacks depth on many of the issues it talks about and misses many links to in depth articles concerning topics of this page. Perhaps some of the in depth historical articles concerning ww2 might be merged with this main portal or the information overlapped. Either way much of this article lacks extended explaination and as such should be restricted to a simple portal, or if it is going to be a main article should be much more comprehensive of the events.

--BMgoau

Edited deaths

I edited paragraph 4 and the statistics table to no longer refer 'total human loss' of life only to those of the allies. It was neccisary not to descriminate between axis and allies when refering to total loss of life concerning military and civilians casualties. see the casualties page for more information. User:203.217.68.136

  • You have got sharp eyes, 203.217.68.136! I wonder how I and all the other NPOV-fanatics have failed to see this before. I will now also update the section called "Casualties", according to your edits. Thanks again, 203.217.68.136! Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 21:43, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A general template for WWII

Due to requests I have created this template for World War II : Template:World War II. It is immediately based on all entries appearing under "See also" in the WWII article, except those under "Specific articles", "Related articles", "Media" and "External articles".

The idea is to replace those affected entries with this new template. In this way, the reader won't have to scroll down through the rather large list of articles, since the template instead lists the articles in four columns from left to right. I also think the template would make it more comprehensive. Another benefit is that contributors of other articles can use this template in their articles immediately if they wish to, instead of copying links from "see also" on the WWII main page. Furthermore, updating will be easy, since it will have to be made only in one place - the template.

I don't want to be so bold that I immediately do this, so therefore I would like to know your opinions on this.

Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 03:21, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I like it! Looks much nicer than what we have now. And since it takes up much less space, we can maybe even put in some more campaign/operations articles there as well? At least I liked the compact way you could browse the various campaigns in that template so much that I immediately started to look for what major campaigns were missing ;-). But if we add more operations, the first coloumn will probably be too long. So either we just limit ourselves to the ones listed (we'll can't list every battle specific article, anyway), or we could maybe put the "Specific articles" below the Main Theaters, and let the yearly timeline-listing, with all the Campaigns and battles, have its own coloumn, so we could put in some more of the major ones.
But, either way, what you have there is IMO better than what we have now. So I'm all for putting it in the article. Shanes 04:03, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I listed some sugested articles to add on Template talk:World War II. Let's keep the debate over what to include in the template there. Shanes 04:51, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Shanes! I have responded on Template talk:World War II. Regards, Dna-Dennis 06:20, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Since no one seems to oppose it, I have been bold and replaced the affected links under "See also" with this general template. Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 10:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Atrocities?

I (Dna-Dennis) and User:Shanes have been discussing the term "Atrocities", as it is one of the headers of this article. To our (Scandinavian) ears it sounds a bit harsh...I've checked for synonyms in Webster's, but they are not any better: savage deed, atrocious deed, outrage, horror, villainy, enormity, barbarity, barbarism, brutality, inhumanity, heinousness, savagery.. All you native English-speaking - is "atrocity" the best term for the section it describes? Isn't there any term which is less "POV"? Not that I don't myself think they are serious events! Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 20:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Atrocities is the correct word, and it correctly describes the Holocaust, murders of POWs, etc. The only controversal aspect is strategic bombing, everything else definitely qualifies. It is not POV, it is actually the right term. --Goodoldpolonius2 21:16, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
So the term is perfectly fine, and not POV, for the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the Japanese American internment as well? There are many people who still believe those were justified actions. And if we call them atrocities, it (to my ears) sounds like we are taking a stand and call them wrong. Shanes 21:32, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You are right, the bombings and internment are POV to call atrocities. Lets make the title "Atrocities and effects on civilians" --Goodoldpolonius2 21:38, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea, Goodoldpolonius2. But maybe the title "Civilian impact and atrocities" is even better? Then the slight POV word comes second (and after all, "civilian impact" is a larger concept, since it (mostly) encompasses "atrocities"). Regards, Dna-Dennis 12:35, 1 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Peer review

I have requested for the World War II article to be peer reviewed.

Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 23:36, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A number of interesting opinions have already gathered on Wikipedia:Peer review/World War II. I think they are definitely worthy of consideration. Regards, Dna-Dennis 10:14, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No 1944 Pacific Overview

The article overviews the war in Europe in 1944 but doesn't mention the Pacific. It overlooks the Battle of Leyte Gulf, the largest naval battle in history, invasion of the Phillipines, and the capture of Marianas from which the Enola Gay dropped the first atom bomb.

Good point. You can add it yourself. Be bold. (and you may want to sign your comments with a --~~~~ --Goodoldpolonius2 22:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Then it needs attention? --AI 01:41, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Notices

I removed the pages needing attention notice and the limited geographic scope notice (the second one is just hogwash). Unless someone mentions specifics (as in actual quotes or ideas) I don't think it appropriate to add such serious accusations. Also, it would be nice if such an addition was noted here, since this is a very active page.--naryathegreat | (talk) 02:32, September 4, 2005 (UTC) I don't know if it was added lately or if I just missed it but there appears to be a overview for the war in Asia 1943-1945 listed under 1943 yet a separate article is devoted exclusively to 1945. This is extremely confusing so I think we should delete the 43-45 overview.IndieJones 21:27, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Crete

It was actualy hitler who said that crete was the grave of the parachutist. He said it to student who disagreed. Rich tea man.

Is that from a dream that you had? Students who disagreed with Hitler rarely graduated.

Lestrade 23:52, 13 October 2005 (UTC)Lestrade[reply]

cost more than all previous wars combined?

The intro now has a statement that wwII is

"estimated to have cost more than all previous wars in history combined".

What is the reference for this? I'd like to delete it since I don't think it's true, or at best a very controversial calculation. Shanes 03:05, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Shanes. For WWII to cost more than all previous war combined would be quite an impressive feat - WWI, The Thirty Year´s War, The Hundred Year´s War, Napoleonic Wars, Russian Revolution, Russian-Japanese War, Seven Year´s War, Revolutionary War, American Civil War, uncountable Roman Empire wars, the Crusades, Attila the Hun and Genghis Kahn all added up together. Doidimais Brasil 00:31, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
I removed the claim. Shanes 00:24, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Brazil

Brazil is listed under "neutral / ambivalent". Brazil sent hundreds of troops to Italy and Brazilian soldiers died fighting Mussolini´s men. It is both historically innacurate and offensive to include Brazil under "neutral". We were the only South American country to send troops to World War II. Doidimais Brasil 00:27, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

This regretful error has been corrected. Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 10:31, 11 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Poland as ally

I am quite unhappy with current description of the 1939. I think that the reader unfamiliar with the topic will assume, that Poland was defeated in 1939 and stopped participating in the war. I was thinking in adding at least one sentence reflecting the fact that Poland was still fighting and was part of the allies. The link to Polish governmen in exile is ok, but it is linked from the sentence "Polish government escaped" which have no sense to me. Maybe another sentence: "within days, Polish government in-exile was formed in the west" or something similar? Szopen 10:56, 13 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Casualties

I added a figure of "as many as 25 million" for Soviet casualties at the beginning of participants. This contradicts the 18 million used later. This latter figure strikes me as very conservative. Anyhow, here are three sources citing 25 million or more. [1] [2] [3]. Note if we do decide on the higher figure the apx. 50 million overall dead used on this page and elsewhere will have to be revised up to apx. 60 mil. Marskell 12:40, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

First a general comment that I sugest we more or less blindly delegate what casualty numbers to use to what the World War II casualties page states. This way we'll be more overall consistant, and we keep discussions and potentially revert wars over this to that page. That page also has more detailed numbers, should keep better and more references, and is more likely to be watched by people with knowledge on this in case of disputes. So when someone makes large changes to any number, we revert and point them to the casuality-page where they can argue for their number. And if it's being accepted there it can then be changed here as well. There are so much controversy and uncertainty over how many, who to count, and so on, that we can just as well leave all the arguing to that page. It's not like there aren't enough other stuff to debate here...
But regarding your change, it looks fine. The number you changed was previously including Germans, but someone had changed that sentence a few hours earlyer making it read like they weren't included anymore. So you adjusting it down to "as many as 25 million" looks ok to me. The World War II casualties page lists 15,000,000 "millitary deaths" and 6,700,000 civilian soviet deaths. That should give about 22 million, but the number has a footnote about "Figures do not include all death by the Soviets; Soviet casualty estimates vary widely". I assume they are not counting any killed in the purges, for instance, but whether to count how many of them as WW2 casualties or not at all is another debate... But, again, I sugest doing this and that on talk:World War II casualties. But debating whether this is a good policy (to delegate off the numbers) is of course fine and welcome here! Who am I to dictate anything ;-). Shanes 13:20, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of line

I have removed the line about the Nazis hating Slavs as much as Jews as it strikes me as silly and throwaway. As I said in the summary "KKK members hate Jews and Blacks equally" would be a sort of senseless line.

Further, however bizarre, there was a hierarchy to things and that Jews ranked at the bottom seems to me beyond question. Rough rank order:

  • Favoured: Germans, Scandinavians, Britons (remember, Hitler admired the British Empire)
  • Acceptable: French Latins
  • Debatable: Other Latins (eg., Spanish and Italians)
For political reasons, the Nazis would often rank the Italians (their allies) above the French (their enemies). Similarly, the Magyars, of eastern steppe origin, were given honorary Aryan status, as were, even more absurdly, the Japanese. States allied to Nazi Germany somehow came off higher in the race hierarchy than those opposed. john k 05:20, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Prior to the Tripartiate alliance, I have read Mussolini actually actively opposed the Nazi racial hierarchy because it placed Italians in a middling position. I also recall "research" was conducted to prove a cognate link between the German and Japanese languages... Marskell 14:59, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Degenerate Aryans: Slavs, with an West to East rank (Holocaust: "The Nazis considered various ranks of Slavic peoples, e.g., it was thought that Russians were inferior to Ukrainians and Belarusians, and that the latter were inferior to Poles." Poles, after all, would have had some German blood).
  • Worthless races: Gypsies, Africans, Jews
The Jews were worthless in a different way than, say, Africans. Africans were considered to be less evolved, primitive, and so forth. The Jews were actively evil, and degenerate. Gypsy status was even weirder, as I recall. john k 05:20, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In the words of one author Slavs were "rubbish" and Jews were "unspeakable" [4]. Marskell 11:51, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so my wording was too strong. But the hatred of Slavs is still relevant I'd say, right? DirkvdM 14:24, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Slavs are mentioned quite clearly as targets of the Holocaust along with Jews in the relevant section, World War II#Genocide, other than that, the article does not talk about motivating factors of the Nazis, the Holocaust article and others go into that in more detail. --Goodoldpolonius2 14:42, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than comparing to Jews I compared to Western Europe: "the Nazi drive into Eastern Europe was further animated by powerful anti-Slavic bigotry which was not paralleled on the Western Front." Yes, anti-Slavic hatred is important. As has been said many times, if Hitler and Stalin had hung together the world would be a very different place—but Hitler's belief system could never have allowed for that.

Also re-structured the section more generally. Marskell 15:47, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Soviet-Japanese Neutrality

Is there something on the Soviet-Japanese neutrality? It effected the course of the Pacific War, but I am having trouble finding any background info on it at all. kaiser matias 22:43 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Check out the Battle of Khalkin Gol. Oberiko 22:02, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

attacks on US soil, eastern front and some more

Marskell just rewrote the bit about the entry of the US and the USSR. I partially reverted that.
The Germans didn't literally attack on US soil, but ships in the harbour of New York, which is not soil but water, but that's nitpicking. The point is it was not in international waters, as it had been until then, which makes a huge difference.
Maybe two fronts can be a good tactic, but in this case it wasn't. Several German generals heavily criticised this and I believe some even resigned because they considered the war lost when the USSR was atacked. So I rewrote it to include info from the Two Front War article.
Leaving out the 'getting supplies in' and 'scorched earth' is a bad idea because those were the major (connected) problems, I believe.
I left out the 'vital resource and population base' because that seems rather obvious.
I'm not too sure about the 'moral boost' bit, but I believe that that did make quite a difference. DirkvdM 08:27, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I have to go after this one first: "I left out the 'vital resource and population base' because that seems rather obvious." Why don't we leave out D-Day, Hiroshima etc. given how obvious they are? Harsh winters in Russia?—obvious, no need to mention. Please.
There was no second front in 1941. The British were fighting a naval and air war with Germany. There was, literally, no front to speak of. Indeed, as I say said in the summary, the creation of a second front was Stalin's primary (in some ways his only demand) of the U.K. and U.S. until D-Day.
"The Germans didn't literally attack on US soil"—then we shouldn't imply that they did.
"But ships in the harbour of New York" and as far south as the coast of Florida I think. Then there was Pearl Harbour. So "direct attack on its navy, shipping and other interests" makes perfect sense. Marskell 11:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think it worth saying that the participants section is now a mess. People seem to be using it to argue some rather odd points. Can I suggest that we revert it back to being a summary of who took part, when and why, and not whether shipping or ground was attacked. There are also some very strange statements: "Thus neither the US nor the USSR need necessarily have entered the war." What you mean they should have ignored Pearl Harbor and Barbarossa? I'm assuming whoever wrote it meant something different, in which case please a) explain and b) take it to an article on the lead-up to WWII.

It is also not helpful to argue about which front is the Centrepiece. This is an ill-defined term which people can argue about. Instead it's much better to make an unarguable factual statement such as "The majority of the deaths occurred on the Eastern Front".

Please remember that this is an overview article and already too long. Anything that doesn't absolutely have to be in this article should be moved to one of the more detailed ones. DJ Clayworth 13:43, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken and I would only add that once a tangent exists you either have to clarify it or remove it. Given that (rightly) editors try to avoid removing the work of others, tangents often bloat sections until nobody knows what's what. Anyhow, I have taken the liberty of removing the following and will preserve it here.
"Thus neither the US nor the USSR need necessarily have entered the war. The US had already helped with supplies (to Britain particularly), but its full entry into the war was an enormous boost for the Allies. In the immediate sense it greatly increased the morale of the embattled British and Russians and in the longer term it meant a full commitment from a vital resource and population base. But especially the German attack on the USSR, and the latter's turn from Axis to Ally, is often considered the mistake that caused the Nazis to lose the war. Not only did it draw in another powerful enemy, but conquering Russia had proven notoriously difficult previously, due to the distances involved and logistical difficulties, the harsh winters and the tactic of the scorched earth.
When judged by scope, the Eastern Front of the war, between Germany and the USSR, is the centerpiece of World War II and indeed has little parallel in the history of human conflict. The USSR lost as many as 25 million people while the 3 million German battle deaths in this theatre represent a large majority of over-all losses. Here too, ideology played a much larger part, with the respective leadership of each power portraying Nazism and Communism as utterly antithetical and locked in a to-the-death struggle; the Nazi drive into Eastern Europe was further animated by powerful anti-Slavic bigotry which was not paralleled on the Western Front". Marskell 14:08, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
About the attacks on US soil, like I said the point is that these attacks didn't take place in international waters, which seems essential to me. But I'll leave that. If the whole thing is to be kept short, this might even be removed, because the declaration of war is the more important bit.
About the removal; preserving it here makes no sense, because this is not part of an article. Moving parts of it to more specific articles (and leaving a summary here!) makes more sense. But of all the details that could be mentioned in this 'overview-article', the eastern front is one of the most important ones. I'd sooner leave out the bit about the neutral countries because, after all, they did not take part.
So I've somewhat shortened the two sections and put them back. I'm still not happy about the exclusion of how and why the US entered the war, though. DirkvdM 07:47, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
However DJ Clay is right that a Participants section doesn't need to wander off-topic. I've moved the second paragraph to the Eastern Front overview. I'm removing the first again until a better place can be suggested for it. The Two Front bit is editorializing and as I say no second front existed in 1941. Marskell 08:53, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

the beginning of the war

replace second paragraph of the leading section

"The conflict began by most Western accounts on September 1, 1939 due to the German invasion of Poland (however some say it started on July 7, 1937 due to the Japanese attack on China) "

by this?

"The conflict can be said to have began in the western front on September 1, 1939 with the German invasion of Poland and in the eastern front on July 7, 1937 with to the Japanese attack on China. But there is no (broad?) consensus on what event constitutes the start of the war. "

yes, it is longer. but it clarifies that the disagreement is not over the dates but over "what constitutes the start of the war". Doldrums 14:49, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As "World War II" rather than as the "Sino-Japanese War," the war in hte Pacific/Asia is generally said to have begun with the attacks on Pearl Harbor and other British and American targets on 7/8 December 1941. Saying it began in 1937 is like saying the War of the Austrian Succession began in 1739 with the British declaration of war on Spain. Just because there was a war going on already which later fed into a larger conflict does not mean that the beginning of the smaller war marks the beginning of the conflict as a whole. john k 15:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Further, the Sino-Japenese conflict is not referred to as the Eastern Front. "The Pacific theatre" or perhaps "East Asian theatre" is better. Marskell 15:41, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
i've no particular view on which particular date is to be used. is the current wording the result of previous discussion/consensus? (dare i hope!). i think the phrase "however some say it started on" is too vague and needs to be changed. also, i think "war began with the invasion of poland..." is better than "war began due to".
agree that the "eastern front" is incorrect and can be replaced by "pacific" or "east asian" theatre depending on which date for the eastern theatre is found suitable. Doldrums 16:23, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There should be a long list of the links within the article put at the end or bottom of the article. There is no way I am going to comb through this. The See also section should be a mega-link farm. I can't find anything in this article. Its perfectly useless. There actually has to be a notice at the See also that says "Click on "Category:World War II to see all the articles". --McDogm 01:28, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What we have here, is a failure to communicate. Visually, people often hate the links within sentences. Practically, they are unquestionably useful. You can't anywhere comb through WWII properly if that's what you were after here (certainly not within an hour). But here you can follow or not follow tangents as you please, and still get an overview. Perhaps a link to World War II links? Really, not a bad idea. But "perfectly useless?"—I suspect you overstate things. Marskell 01:39, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In reference to the US and Canadian Internship of North American Japanese

Though the hardship of these people is perhaps not comparable to the Gulags, or the Japanese POW camps, it is well documented that most lived in sub-standard conditions, with little if no communication with the outside. Entire families spent years in forced isolation. I think it is misleading to say that they did not endure hardship. ANON

You're right. I changed the line. Marskell 04:11, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Some historians"...

Some historians contend that The Italian ocupation of Ethiopia (The Second Italo-Abyssinian War) which lasted seven months in 1935-1936 was the actual start of World War II.

Are there any sources or citations for this? Otherwise "some historians" is way too weasely, IMO, and it should be reverted out. Wikibofh 03:29, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

what stalin "felt" & soviet "partisans" in US press

are there sources for the following statements? perhaps the phrases "Stalin was happy to" and "Soviet partisans" can be changed to a more "encyclopediac" terms.

The Soviet Union, due to its treaty relationship with Nazi Germany was satisfied not to fight the fascists, as Stalin was happy to have those he felt were his natural and true enemies—the capitalist West and Nazi Germany—fight each other. For example, the Soviets had their partisans in the U.S. press for the U.S. to remain neutral in the war, and those partisans would continue to do so until the German invasion of the USSR.

Doldrums 03:34, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Europe Map

The europe overview map seems to use the same colour for axis-conquered territories as neutral ones, resulting in a near heart-attack for me as I came to the shocking revelation that germany had conquered Ireland! Save us!-- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 09:06, 20 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The war ended in 1990?

BBC quiz show QI just stated that the war officially ended in 1990 with the unification of Germany, though admitted that was a technical oddity. An interesting fact, if true. violet/riga (t) 21:25, 21 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hm. Like the 18th century ended at Waterloo in 1815 and the 20th century began in 1914. It's "catchy history speak." The war, as a war, ended in 1945. It's reprecussions still continue. But we must state the obvious and acceptable here. Marskell 23:18, 21 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Lead pic problems

Could someone please remove the World War II out of the lead collage? It gives the very inappropriate appearance of being the cover of some exciting, high-budget action movie.

Peter Isotalo 07:52, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There is a similar image on World War I. I personally don't see any probem with it, it gives a good initial insight into the numerous aspects of the war. What do you perceive to be wrong with it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chowells (talk • contribs) 09:39, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I think its a very fine pic, picking just one thing for the lead being so hard in this case. Marskell 09:43, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The choice of images I have no problem with, It's the image text that makes it look quite tasteless. Same goes for the WWI image. They both resemble movie posters.
Peter Isotalo 14:28, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • We hashed it out and came up with consensus a few months ago, and it's one we liked. I'd recommend trying to figure out how to make another and we can see if we like it better.  :) Check through the archives and you'll see the discussion. 162.93.249.1 14:43, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

End of WWII

Here's an interresting little tidbit from QI. The end of WWII was made official through the Paris Peace Treaties in 1947. But that was about Germany, which didn't exist anymore at the time. It only came back into existence at the reunification in 1990, so, technically, that's when WWII ended. Not sure if this should go into the article, though. :) DirkvdM 12:08, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This was mentioned above. However a quick check of the facts finds that the DDR did not come into existence until 1949, so at the time of the Paris Treaties it was still one country (albeit divided into occupation zones). Furthermore since both East and West Germany would consider themselves the legitimate heirs of Germany, they would consider that the Paris Treaties would apply to them ,and so would be no longer at war. If for some reason one country did not consider itself the legitimate heir of Germany, then it was never at war at all. DJ Clayworth 14:47, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It's also worthwhile pointing out that QI is a comedy quiz show. Such shows do no usually spend a lot of time on getting their facts right, since correct facts are not always funny. DJ Clayworth 14:49, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Great Patriotic War

The Soviets called it the Great Patriotic War, which exists as a wikipedia redirect Great patriotic war linking to Eastern Front (World War II). This needs to be included in this article, but I didn't see an obvious place to locate it. Any thoughts? JJackson8 22:52, 1 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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