Talk:Jesus/Archive 20

Mormons do not believe in Jesus "like other Christians do"

This is not intended to be inflamitory, but to reflect the wording I removed from the article. It is my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) that the Mormon belief in the person of Jesus is very different from the rest of Christianity. Therefore, in the interests of NPOV, I have removed the phrase "...like other Christians do" from the article.

It's late, I'm tired, and this is not intended to be inflamitory. If something I wrote here sets you off please accept my appologies in advance. Respectfully - DavidR (was David) 04:13, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The terms Pharisee and Sadduccee are reversed here. It is the Sadducees who are the liberal, wealthy, minority sect.

The Saducees were not liberal. It is also hard to say who was in the majority and who was in the minority. Certainly the Pharisees, being more liberal, were also more populist and one can claim that their following was much greater than the Saducees. Nevertheless, the Saducees were the dominant political and religious authority, and during the Hasmonean Kingdom were, at times, more popular. I don't know if there are any reliable statistics from that time from which we could say who really was in the majority or minority. Slrubenstein

Mary Magdalene as wife of Jesus

It would be informative if we could include some of the "strong" historical evidence that Magdalene was Jesus' wife. Slrubenstein

I fear most of this strong evidence comes from the thriller novel of last year, the Leonardo Code. You're right; it would be helpful if the evidence could be cited and no value judgments passed as to the strength or nonstrength of the evidence. It might even be better to just state that some see evidence of this and link to a separate Mary Magadalene as wife of Jesus article which presents the various reasons people do or do not accept this view.

This is getting to be sort of a "popularist" understanding of the Bible; with works like the Leonardo Code, and The Last Temptation of Christ from the last century, and with the decreasing amount of familiarity with the Bible on the part of the general public, it's increasingly common for people to think of Mary Magdalene as "that woman who had the relationship with Jesus." But scholarship doesn't necessarily support that view. Jdavidb 19:59, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Call me a snob, but if it isn't in a peer-reviewed publication or a book published by an academic press, or by an established scholar, I do not think it should be described as "historical evidence." I am sure I would make exceptions, but only with good cause -- and a third-rate novel by a third-rate author doesn't count! Slrubenstein

Although I agree that this is not evidenced except by legend, you may want to do a bit of reading on the "secrets" the Knights Templar kept. Jesus' marriage to Mary was one. I do not consider legend as "strong evidence" by any stretch, but is interesting, regardless of what "cholars" and other historians state in their western mindset. The bottom line is we weren't there and we don't know. -Visorstuff 01:16, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The names and titles of Jesus

Finally had chance to look at this section, and I must admit I'm a little flabbergasted. What is the objective of this section, and why is it placed in the "historical" section? The heading of the "historical" section says that everything below it is based on empirical evidence accepted by most historians. The "names and titles" subsections is based entirely on the texts of the Gospels and on various Hebrew scriptures. Doesn't this imply that the Gospels and Hebrew scriptures are therefore empirical evidence??

Instead, the 'names and titles' section reads like a speculative attempt to take isolate certain words and phrases from their context, compare them with comparable words and phrases from other contexts, and thereby assign novel meanings to the words and phrases, thus indirectly ascribing novel beliefs to their authors. The entire approach seems very subjective. If this is what "modern scholars" are doing, that's fine, but it seems like it would fit better in the "other perspectives on Jesus" section as yet another significant body of dissenting opinion. Or, as seems likely, I'm just grossly misunderstanding the section, in which case I hope to benefit from someone's patient explanation. Thanks in advance, Wesley 05:26, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Wow! I didn't anticipate this reaction, but I am glad that you spelled it out in the talk section before taking any action. I value your knowledge and judgement so I hope that you will make whatever changes you ultimately believe are necessary to maintain the integrity of the article -- I hope that my clarifications here help in this process. First, it is possible that we need to revise the section on "empirical evidence" and history. Literary texts like the Gospels are important historical sources (I think many people who reject them as sources, and I do not mean you, Wesley, simply misunderstand how historians work and believe that documents are either entirely true or entirely false. In fact, this is almost never true; historians must analyze and inpterpret texts carefully, and there is debate over how to interpret the Gospels as historical sources, but there is no doubt among historians that the Gospels are historical sources. As the article itself says, though, "They look at scripture not as divinely inspired but as the work of fallible humans, who wrote in the light of their culture and time."). Second, most of what I put in comes from Geza Vermes Jesus the Jew: A Historian's Reading of the Gospels. Geza Vermes is a Fellow of the British Academy and Professor Emeritus of Jewish Studies at Oxford University, so he is a real historian. Moreover, this book is widely cited by other historians. I am not an expert in 1st century history and have not read a lot of books, but I know that the handfull of books I have read are well-considered books written by well-considered historians, and these books cite Vermes positively. I believe that what I put in this article is a fairly accurate summary of Vermes major points, but I am sure they can be re-written for style; in some cases points may need clarification or qualification; in some cases more evidence or other points of view may need to be added. But I do think the points are valid and reflect current scholarship.

The main reason I added them is two-fold: first, the article had Jesus' title as "messiah." It is true that this is one of his titles. Arguably, today it is his most important title. But to claim that it is his only title (and perhaps even to claim it is his most important title) is anachronistic. At the time that Jesus lived, he may very well have had other titles, some of which may have been more important (I am not claiming this is so, only that it is possible). We have very few sources for this time, but the Gospels constitute one important source. Since they were likely written by religiously motivated authors 50-100 years after Jesus was crucified, they must be taken with a grain of salt, but they still are important historical sources. In the Gospels Jesus has other titles besides messiah. Since this is a section on titles of Jesus, and it already discussed one title, messiah, I think it is important that it discuss other titles.

Second, there is the question of what these titles mean. The meaning of words is determined by their usage in a social context. As the discussion of "messiah" points out, that word has meant different things at different times. This is true for other titles (or phrases) used to describe Jesus. Many people who read the Gospels today come to the Gospels already knowing (or, believing) certain things -- about Jesus, Christianity, Jews, and Roman Judea. This knowledge influences how they read and interpret the Gospels. But what did these words mean when these texts were written, say, in the year 100 C.E.? If we can assume that Jesus or his disciples actually used these words, what did they mean in 20 or 30 C.E.? This raises the question of "context," which you use above. In your comment, Wesley, I understand you to mean by "context" the place in the New Testament where these words occur. That is one important context. But these words were not invented by the authors of the NT; other people were using these words at the time the NT was written, and before it was written. Indeed, the authors of the NT grew up as members of a speech community in which these words were used, and wrote for an audience who, presumably, knew what these words meant. This is also part of the context. The best evidence we have for this context are other texts written during this period, or texts that people during this period were reading (which were written earlier). Vermes is looking at these texts in order to explore possible, plausible, and probable meanings of these titles.

It sounds like I should put the citation in the article. But given you reaction, Wesley, I don't think that would be adequate to respond to your concerns. I hope that what I have just written answers your questions and gives sufficient explanation. If it does, and you see the merit of keeping this material, but believe that it needs to be reworked, I trust you to go ahead and make changes you see fit. If I have not been clear in my explanation, however, I hope you will continue to be patient and give me another opportunity to explain what I did. Thanks, Slrubenstein

I agree that this not an unusual way of interpreting the New Testament. But as a school of interpretation, it ought properly to be grouped with other schools of interpretation, like the Muslims and the Bahais and so forth. (I personally don't think much of "soft" sciences like sociology or psychology pretending they have the same weight as "hard" sciences like chemistry or physics; I believe I have plenty of company in this respect. Sociology has statistics, but not the kind of repeatability of experiments that chemistry has. History only has probabilities and best guesses based on limited data, an even worse situation.) Or, the section above it about this being about factual, empirical information only should be scrapped. Regarding context, yes I was referring to the context of the titles in the Gospels. True, the words were spoken within an historical and cultural context, not in a vacuum. Both sorts of context should be considered; this author considers only one of them. For instance, Matthew 20:17-19 reads, Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again. Following this the mother of two of the disciples asks if they can be seated with him in Jesus' kingdom. From the immediate context, it's clear that Jesus means himself and none other when he calls himself the "Son of Man", and that at the same time he is predicting something extraordinary about himself. One may argue that he wanted to emphasize his mortality by choosing that title, or that he was vaguely alluding to Daniel's 7:13 exalted Son of Man, but in any case by using it in the same sentence with a prediction of death and resurrection, he is saying something extraordinary about the Son of Man. The statistical approach ignores such things. Also, there are other cases in which Gospel writers very self consciously use well known words in a new way, the prime example being John's use of the word 'logos' in John chapter one.

Aside from this debate, however, the overriding presupposition or starting point that "these texts were not divinely inspired, but were written [solely] in light of their culture and time" identifies a particular POV. That's fine; my overarching concern is that this be recognized as a POV, as is the Christian POV, the Muslim POV, and so forth, and not that it be labeled as being particularly neutral or objective, as seems to be the case now.

I remain personally astonished that some scholar would think they understand the cultural context and intended meanings of these texts so much better than those who lived within 100 years or less of the Gospels having been written.

Wesley 23:37, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Wesley, I am surprised by your last comment. If I understand it correctly, then I believe you really misunderstand the nature of historial research. If this is something you want to discuss I'd be happy to pursue it with you on your talk page (or mine). I certainly disagree with your aside on the so-called "soft-sciences." But our disagreements in this regard are irrelevant. What is important is that we both agree that the theories presented by historians are "points of view." I tried to write the section in question in an NPOV language. If you think it has been presented in a way that violates our NPOV policy, and can make changes that make it clear that this is an argument made by some scholars, rather than a universally agreed-on fact, and can make such changes without changing content, feel free to make such changes. All I can say is, I really tried to write it in accordance with our NPOV policy.

I do, however, vigorously disagree with your assertion that the work of historians should be presented in the same way as Muslim or Bahai interpretations. Historians are not motivated by a religious agenda. Muslim, Bahai, Christian, and Jewish interpretations could all be in one section, I agree, a section on how different religions interpret the NT. These belong in one section because however different their interpretations, their interpretations have some things in common: they are motivated by a belief in God, and supported by religious traditions. Yes, historians too have a POV, but it is a very different kind of POV. This is a distinction we make in other articles by the way. It is a distinction we make in the articles on evolution, which mention creationism but as a very different kind of account of the world than that of biologists.

Currently the article is divided into a variety of sections, and some sections do present the points of view of different religions. Are you saying that ALL elements of the article should be organized this way, according to distinct points of view? That we should get rid of sections 2-5 and incorporate them into the later sections?

The material I added reflects interpretations by historians, and I put it in the section on historical research on Jesus. That seemed, and still seems to me, to be appropriate. Slrubenstein

I think the most misleading thing is not what you wrote, but the heading above that said everything under there was based on empirical evidence. Perhaps I should clarify my comparison of historians' interpretations with Muslim or Bahai interpretations. If historians are looking at artifacts like what manuscripts of this or that text we have available, how old they most likely are, and even addressing questions of authorship, I can see presenting that as the work of historical research. When they try to interpret the text itself, for instance when they guess what Jesus meant by calling himself the Son of Man, that seems to be as much a religious or theological task as an historian's. It's the sort of thing that St. John Chrysostom wrote and spoke about at length in his homilies. Would you want me to quote St. John Chrysostom as an historian, since he also interpreted the words used, compared them with similar phrases and passages in the Old Testament, etc.? Similarly, historians may make useful observations about some miracles being recorded in only some manuscripts, but if they conclude that no miracles at all took place, they are probably being informed by a theology that either denies the existence of God at all, denies the possibility of miracles, or something similar. I haven't looked at the articles regarding evolution, but for me the distinction there would be between providing a scientific theory for how the world or various species came to be that doesn't happen to rely on the existence of God, and making a positive statement that scientific evidence shows that God does not exist. If a scientist does the latter, the scientist is no longer doing science but theology.

Wesley 17:48, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Googling for "soft science" turned up at least one link that explains the distinction between hard and soft science, in a paragraph in the second half of the page: http://kosmoi.com/Science/more.shtml. I mention it only to show that that's not just my personal opinion, but one shared by at least some 'hard scientists', and also one that doesn't necessarily have a thing to do with religion. Wesley 18:01, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

To add another example, it seems obvious that finding and identifying manuscripts of Plato's or Aristotle's writings would be historical research, but interpreting what they said would be primarily the work of philosophers. One person may engage in both jobs, but they are still separate disciplines. Finding one person who can do two different things needn't blur the distinction between the two roles. This is why I moved the historians' interpretation of the Gospels down to the perspectives/interpretations section. I may not have identified the transition point perfectly, but I think in principle it's a reasonable move. Wesley 12:19, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Wesley, it may be that "empirical research" needs to be rephrased. However, you need to know that interpreting the meaning of texts is indeed work done by historians and other secular scholars, it is not the work of a philosopher, for example, to interpret what Aristotle "meant" to the extent that what Aristotle "meant" (the verb) is an event that occured in the past, so to determine what Aristotle meant is a job of reconstructing a past event (something historians do all the time). Philosophers can argue that a particular claim of Aristotle is meaningful but false, meaninful and true, or meaningless -- they can evaluate the philosophical value of the text. But not the meaning itself. They asume a meaning, and historican contribute to their understanding of that meaning through historical work. Same with the Bible. Theologians and Historians can both interpret the "meaning" of the Bible, but what they are actually doing is very different and based on different assumptions. You write,

When they try to interpret the text itself, for instance when they guess what Jesus meant by calling himself the Son of Man, that seems to be as much a religious or theological task as an historian's.

And to the extent that you are correct, all I can say is that when the religious person or theologian tries to interpret what "son of man" means, s/he is doing something quite different (making different assumptions for different purposes, and applying different methods or procedures) than what the historian does. But the question of what "son of man" meant is certainly a scientific task. This is because the meaning of words is not entirely subjective, it is objective (otherwise, you and I could not communicate -- we need to use words in a way that follows English conventions, so that not only you but any other English speaker can understand what I am writing this very moment). Do you know that there is an entire academic discipline called linguistics? Among other things, what they do is look at texts in unknown languages and try to figure out what words mean. For example, an anthropological linguist can go to another society and use established methods to learn the language. In order to do this, they have developed methods which can be applied generally to finding out what a term means. These methods are used not only by linguists, but by scholars in Comparative Literature and also historians.

Vermes is reviewing work by historians along these lines. I am moving the section back -- it belongs in the section on "titles," and it clearly belongs in a section on history. But I hope I have been very clear that I am open to your (and others') help in improving the section. I do believe that whatever section it goes in, it needs to be clear and intelligible, and if you or others think it isn't I certainly hope we can work together to improve that. I also believe it must be NPOV. You make a point concerning scientists and evolution. To respond to that point: I do not believe that Vermes or any of the historians he cites are arguing that God does not exist or that Jesus was not divine. It is true that they, like the scientists you mention, are trying to interpret the texts without relying on a religious interpretation, but for all I know these scholars may be atheists, agnostics, or religious. The only assumption I believe they are making is not about Jesus's nature, but about the nature of the language Jesus spoke -- that it was a language other people spoke, that the words he (or those who witnessed and recorded his mission) used were words others were using at the time. I hope this is clear, if not it ought to be ... Slrubenstein

Yes, I'm quite aware of the field of study called "linguistics". I've formally studied modern German quite a bit, and to much lesser degrees Spanish, French, and classical Greek. I know that professional linguists often contradict each other and maintain conflicting theories that are impossible to resolve with experiment, over things like whether any language has true synonyms, or whether seeming synonyms actually have different meanings. The fact that it is impossible to prove such things empirically is part of what makes it a "soft science". When it comes to ancient languages, there is the additional problem that there are no living speakers of ancient Greek or Egyptian, for instance, so much more guesswork is required than usual. For instance, some Greek scholars think ancient Greek may have been a tonal language like Chinese, while others think not. All that can be proven is that modern Greek is not tonal. In a similar fashion it is impossible to "prove" scientifically what Son of Man means, at least not to the degree that chemists can prove that salt is composed of sodium and chloride atoms in a one to one ratio, by means of experiments that any other chemist can repeat and verify. Historians can form theories and advance different reasons for them, and approve of or disapprove of each other's theories, but that's about all. It's the same process that theologians follow. This is why I think it belongs with other religious views, even if its methodology is self-consciously areligious or atheistic.

You compare linguistics with comparative literature and history. I think everyone knows stories of modern authors who see their books reviewed by such professionals and respond, "That's not what I meant at all." And literature scholars disagree over whether the author's intent even matters when interpreting what their book means or conveys. Again, there is no empirical way of settling the dispute.

To come back to these historians' specific methodology, it is fundamentally flawed by looking only at the broad multi-century context in which these words and titles were used, and ignores the immediate contexts in which Jesus used them. I suspect this was done at least in part because examining the surrounding context would undercut their hypothesis or theory that Jesus did not claim divinity.

Wesley 17:34, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Wesley, this just is not the place to debate the validity or limits of history as an academic discipline. The point remains that history is an academic discipline and that historians have explored the different meanings of different titles for Jesus, and an account of this work belongs in the sub-section on titles of Jesus in the section on history. Yes, historians (like linguists) argue over how to interpret these texts, and I have tried to represent these arguments/different positions clearly and fairly. As with any contribution, this account has to be an accurate account of what historians have argued, clear, and NPOV. If you think that what I wrote meets all of these conditions, let's just leave it. If you think that it can be clearer or more NPOV I welcome your suggestions for changes. Slrubenstein

While I don't think you've shown yet how academic historians' work is differentiated from that of theologians' (both are published, peer reviewed, based on interpretation of available data, etc.), I'll go along with the sectioning for now and see where the presentation itself needs balancing. I hope the small adjustments I made removing the word 'empirical' and qualifying the historians as 'academic' are acceptable. Wesley 05:57, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This sounds reasonable, although I am not sure what you thik "empirical" means (I return to this point later, if you want to address it). As for the difference between historian and theologian, I am not sure whether I can answer you adequately. Obviously there is a disciplinary difference, and perhaps for the article in its current state this is enough (that there is a section on "history," in which we draw primarily on the work of historians). I must admit that I am not entirely sure what theologians today do, which makes it hard for me to answer your question. I assume that the fundamental distinction between historians and theologians is that historians are agnostic when it comes to God and the divinity of Jesus (as I said, from reading Vermes I cannot tell whether he believes in God or not, and I do not think he is trying to argue that Jesus was, or was not, "the messiah." The only assumption I think Vermes is making is that the language Jesus spoke was the same language spoken by others at the time, and so the meaning of his words and phrases were meanings commonly understood at the time). I suppose a theologian can use the same methods as historians such as Vermes, and if that were the case I certainly wouldn't object to putting their interpretation into the same section of the article as those of historians like Vermes. My objection was to puting Vermes in the same section as Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Hindu theologians -- only because I assumed that those theologians are making clear assumptions about the divinity of Jesus and are arguing for a particular religion's view. Am I misunderstanding theologians?

Above, you made a distinction that I found very sensible and useful:

I haven't looked at the articles regarding evolution, but for me the distinction there would be between providing a scientific theory for how the world or various species came to be that doesn't happen to rely on the existence of God, and making a positive statement that scientific evidence shows that God does not exist. If a scientist does the latter, the scientist is no longer doing science but theology.

And I am just trying to apply this to the matter at hand. I don't think that the historians I have been relying on are making positive statements that scientific evidence does or does not prove anything about the divine realm, they are merely interpreting texts. Now, what do you mean by "empirical?" My understanding of "empirical is that it may have to do with practical experience or experiments. I think you are using "empirical" in a way that is both too narrow and too broad. It is too narrow in the sense that you seem (if I am mistaken I apolgize) to identify it exclusively with 'experimental" but this is not necessarily the case. Historians like Vermes do rely on empirical evidence in that the texts they look at are physically real and avilable to others, and our knowledge of these texts comes through our sense-perceptions of them. This is very important because it means Vermes' interpretations are not subjective: they are accountable to others. If Vermes' claims that a phrase that appears in one text is identical to a phrase that appears in another text, others can say "no, it isn't, I checked that other text and you are mis-reading it." You make a big deal out of arguments among historians and literary critics over the meaning of texts, but to me this is a sign of a healthy scientific spirit, that researchers hold themselves accountable to one another. On the other hand, you seem to use "empirical" too broadly, because you seem to think that empirical data is evidence that can support or falsify a claim. I do not think scientists and philosophers of science would agree; many distinguish between "empiricism" and "positivism" on just these grounds. (Remember, I do not mean by "empirical" strictly experimental data, but any sensate experience). Scientists often get data that does not fit a particular model. This data is empirical, but it does not immediately falsify the scientist's hypothesis or model. The data could be corrupt in some way (thus, giving an anomalous result in a mass spectometer), or an exception (this is an old principle in positivism -- if you define swans as "white" and discover a black swan, this does not mean that your definition of "swan" was wrong. There could be other explanations for why the exceptional swan is black. Before you call this empirical observation "evidence," you need to know more). Slrubenstein

Source Documents the Gospels are based on?

To the best of my knowledge this paragraph is historically incorrect, and I don't have the time or the frame of mind to properly correct this from work.

Moreover, historians generally agree that at least some of the source documents on which the Gospels are based were written within living memory of Jesus. These historians therefore accept that the accounts of the life of Jesus in the Gospels, excepting certain miraculous claims and the details that surround them, provide a reasonable basis of evidence by the standards of ancient history, for the basic narrative of Jesus' life and death

We have over 20,000 manuscripts of the New Testament, some dating back to AD 125 and no historian that I am aware of claims they were written from other sources. Please either cite your source documents or expect me to change this. Respectfully - DavidR 20:35, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It is widely considered that the Gospels may have been based at least partly on prior sources, oral or written. The best-known is the 'Q' document. Although it has never been found or identified, it is pretty widely accepted. DJ Clayworth 21:07, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Good call DJ, I was thinking the same thing - I've added a link to it in the article. DavidR - I questions the availability of 20,000 copies of the gospels from AD 125. To my knowledge there are only a handful of manuscripts that date that early, or even prior to AD 400 (perhaps in the 100s for the latter date). You may want to clarify your point/contention above so we can fix it.

Good points -- my knowledge, which may be far less extensive than DLR's, is just what DJ Clayworth says; every historian I have read argues that although the Gospels were written sometime after Jesus was crucified (60-100 years after) they were based on earlier sources, written or oral. I am not sure who wrote the passage DLR is concerned with; that person may no longer be actively contributing. If the passage can be improved, maybe DLR can tell us how s/he would change it? Slrubenstein

Sorry I didn't phrase that sentence better. The earliest manuscripts we have date from AD 125, we have over 20,000 manuscripts (c. 24,000 I believe) of the NT total. I have edited my opening statement to reflect this.

So we are questioning the origin of letters we have seen and have numerous copies of based on a document that no one has seen and that may not even exist? Is this truly NPOV? I've skimmed through about half the Q Document article and notice that it's questioning Luke on style points? Luke has been repeatedly shown, both in his Gospel and in Acts, to be a top notch historian. Anywhere that his writings have been questioned archaeological evidence has eventually been turned up to support him. So please pardon me if I am skeptical about this "hypothetical" (from the Q Document article, but not mentioned this one) document that we have (as far as I can tell currently) little or no evidence for. As I said previously I'll research this and get back to you. I'll also break down what bothers me about that paragraph in a later post. Respectfully - DavidR 22:32, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Based on my research, the Q Document is pretty much a reality (more supported than secular creation theories). I'm not questioning the author of Luke and Acts abilities as a historian. I also didn't make the edit that is in question. I do doubt that archaelogical evidence has supported everything he wrote (such as Christ bleeding great drops of blood), and accept the gospel without question, but it is obvious that he took information from other sources - written or oral. The statement you question to my understanding is whether or not the authors of the gospels 'blindly' accepted the miracles of Christ ("excepting certain miraculous claims and the details that surround them")? Is that correct? Non of us understand your point of contention. Also, with the Bible being translated and printed millions of times, I think it is safe to say we have billions of copies of the new testament. The question is, how many times were they transcribed differently than the earliest copies of them (which we do not have). Even the so-called Secret gospel of Mark and other variations of the earliest manuscripts (or autographs) of the gospels vary in many points and obviously were edited by various early christian sects (see Gnosticism). Miracles were added in and taken out many times. Wesley - you are familiar with this aren't you - do you have any comments on these early documents? -Visorstuff 01:16, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I'm somewhat familiar with it. Of course there's not going to be archaeological evidence for "great drops of blood" shed in a garden, probably falling on plants or soil... There obviously existed an oral tradition from the time the events of Jesus' life took place until the Gospels were written, and still for some time after that. I've read at least one second century Christian source (sorry can't remember which) that thought the oral tradition at that time was more reliable than the written gospels. I don't know how verifiable it is, but the Orthodox tradition concerning John the Evangelist is that he was the longest lived of the twelve apostles, living up until at least 101 A.D., making him slightly over 100 years old. If so, then even if he wrote the Gospel of John later in life, it would have been within living memory of Jesus' earthly life. Ignatius, a well-known early bishop of Antioch, is said to have seen Jesus teaching while he (Ignatius) was just a boy; it's not hard to believe that there would have been other children and young men and women among the crowds who heard Jesus teach and saw his miracles, and that some of these may have lived long lives. As for the actual "Q Document", it can't be more than a theoretical document until someone produces a manuscript. It is a widely accepted theory among many historians. If Q turns out to be oral tradition, it may not be a "document" at all, and I think the proponents of Q would agree this is a possibility? Wesley 02:34, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I assumed common sense would apply to my comments on the historical accuracy of Luke and Acts. Of course you are not going to find physical evidence for drops of blood spilled 2,000 years ago. And my objections are not about the comments on miracles either. Just because I object to something that sounds like so-called Higher Criticism doesn't mean I bought my lobotomy at a 2-for-1 sale. As Wesley can tell you I am a bit of an amateur historian. My objection is that this Q Document is treated as fact (either a Gnostic or Higher Criticism POV I am guessing) but, as I said, I will be researching it further. Respectfully - DavidR 13:49, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Let's remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a place for original research. It simply does not matter whether you or I beleive that Q existed, or believe that it did not exist. What you or I believe about Luke and Acts is irrelevant also. What matters is this: there are different groups of people who have written extensively about Jesus from a variety of points of view (especially, historians, theologians, and clerics). This article must represent those points of view. It is not for us to say that the Christian view is right or wrong; we are however supposed to write an accurate account of what the Christian view is (or what the major Christian views are). Similarly, it is not for us to argue with any historian. Our task is to provide an account of what research historians have done, and what conclusions (however provisional or subject to debate) they have drawn. The research we should be doing should not be aimed at helping us decided whether we believe in Q or not; it should not be aimed at supporting some argument among ourselves. The research we should be doing should help us provide a more accurate account of what others have been saying about Jesus. Slrubenstein

DavidR - No offense was intended - sorry if it came across that way. I do think based on your objection has merit, and wording should be changed. I was trying to draw out what your real objection to the paragraph was. Although I believe that the Q Document did not exist in written form (i do believe it was done in oral form - sorry I did not make this clearer in my earlier - "it's a fact" statement), I do think that as Wesley said, the oral traditions are likely more accurate than most of the written gospels (I'd love the source referred to), as there is evidence that early manuscripts have been tampered with. What we have is inspired and most likely what the author wrote, but there are some holes that exist in the docuement that appear to have been taken (in my opinion and research). However, since the 1800s the existence of a Q document has been studied and the evidence for it is very strong. However, the paragraph does treat it as fact, rather than as a theory and should be changed. -Visorstuff 18:12, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Visorstuff - Fair enough, none taken. Sorry if my response was testy.

SLRubenstein - And what if what these "others" are saying is inaccurate, biased, or unsubstantiated? What if something is being promulgated as a majority opinion and it is, in fact, a fringe opinion in the circles of serious scholarship? I respectfully submit for your consideration that if the Wikipedia is no more than a collection of unsubstantiated opinions then it is not worth the time or effort that the sponsors and creators of this Web site (including you and I) have put into it. My preliminary research into this shows that the Q Document has been thoroughly debunked and is only given serious consideration by a minority of academia. Even the article on the Q Document itself has the word "hypothetical" sprinkled throughout it, yet the paragraph I cited in my objection casually alludes to this unseen, unfound document as if it's presuppositions are proven fact. I have edited it to make it more NPOV, but the sentence is a kludge at the moment.

There may, or may not, have been an oral tradition or an actual written document. However neither of those hypotheses have been historically proven at the present. Therefore, let us move on and try to make this edit look like less of a kludge.

And speaking NPOV, I notice a complete lack of arguments against the Q Document on the article page for it. I suppose I'll have to correct that, too, in my spare time between 0100 and 0500..... ;) Respectfully - DavidR 18:30, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

If it has been debunked by established scholars then of course that should be discussed in detail in the article on Q, and mentioned here. I thought it would be understood that when I said "others" I meant recognized scholars (secular or ecclesial). I am sorry that I wasn't explicit about that, but otherwise what I wrote stands. The problem is, in some cases "debunked" is a point of view. If virtually all scholars hold to a particular view, we should say so. If a majority of scholars hold to one view, and a significant minority of scholars hold to another, we should say so. If scholars are simply divided, we should say so. I don't know anything about Q so I can't say which of these is the case. But I do know that whatever the article says about Q, it should be based on an account of current scholarship. Slrubenstein

Name of page

I'm new, but as I understand it, NPOV would say the page be called "Jesus" rather than "Jesus Christ".

It would then include material that Christians believe he was/is the Christ etc. That section would offer support for that view.

It would also then say that Jews do not generally accept that he was the Christ, and so on ...

Please do not mis-understand what I'm asking here: Should not the title be more neutral, and the text then make the various claims. His name was "Jesus", but "Christ" is a title claimed by some. For Christians, a truely important claim, so that should be supported. For others, its most untrue: that too should be supported. Yes?

Welcome to the Wikipedia then. :) Strictly speaking, you are probably correct. However for uniqueness the page should probably left as is. There are many people named Jesus (pronounced hay-soos, stress the last sylable) of Hispanic descent. There are probably several other famous people named Jesus throughout history as well. I believe that there is a disclaimer in the article stating that Christ is a Latin translation of the Hebrew title messiah, meaning "annointed one".

Also, please sign your posts. Put 3 tildes (~) after your post to sign with your Wikipedia user ID, and 4 tildes to put both your user ID and a timestamp. You can visit my user page to see the welcome post I got from UtherSRG with links to s bunch of usefull pages. Once again, welcome. DavidR 19:36, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The policy is to use the most common form of the name, and by this principle I think the name of the article is appropriate. Also, you'll see that we generally refer to monarchs by title. Jesus wasn't a monarch, but since Jesus' followers refer to him using the title "Christ," it seems appropriate to do the same in the article. Slrubenstein

Higher Criticism

I just added a good deal of information to The Historical Jesus of Nazareth. I am covering ground others have attempted to cover before, and only want to do so if I can do so effectively. Wesley cut a mention of "empirical evidence;" I don't want to argue over that, but I do think that the result was a not-very-informative passage. I have tried to explain the basic assumptions of secular historians who study the Gospels and Jesus. I have endeavored to be NPOV and I hope Wesley and others will look over this and let me know if I have written anything that is inflamatory. I have also tried to provide a correct picture, without taking up too much space. SO if anyone out there is more fluent in the assumptions of methods of academic historians, please go over this and make sure I haven't misrepresented the profession -- and if anyone thinks I went overboard, please suggest cuts! I do think that given the subject of this article, it is very important to provide a framework in which people of different beliefs, and non-believers, can share their views, Slrubenstein

Please use the Post New Comment link when starting a new section. it will make it easier to locate and take part in the discussion.

You have replaces a single sentence with an entire paragraph that is nothing more than an explanation of Higher criticism and comes off (to me at any rate) as POV as anything I have read on here. So-called Higher criticism is a viewpoint of a vast minority of religious scholars and is primarily applied to Biblical texts by people who have a presupposition against something then the text. I have almost never seen Higher criticism applied to a non-Biblical text or document from antiquity. If it is an historical document then test it by the standards you test other historical documents against. If it is not a valid historical document, (e.g. Shakespear's plays) then don't expect to find corroborating evidence for the events depicted therein. Respectfully, DavidR 21:03, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Apostle Thomas, Jesus in India

The theory that Jesus travelled to India as a youth is proposed by some scholars. I added this as a note, as well as marking that Jesus' childhood and adolescence is little testified in the Gospels. I also noted the belief stated in the Syriac Acts of Thomas that St. Thomas (called "The Twin") was actually the twin of Jesus himself. I tried as best as possible to keep these NPOV (I'm not a proponent of either theory), and I tried to state them as beliefs and put sources to those beliefs. I realize that this is an extremely "hot" page, so I wanted to note the changes here. --ESP 20:28, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Is there any evidence for this alleged trip to India? I have also heard about a supposed trip to Great Britian. I doubt He had time to make both of those between His trip to Egypt around the age of two, and His trip to Jerusalem around the age of 12. Thank you for citing your source on the Twin issue, could you please do the same for the India trip? Thanks, DavidR 21:07, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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