Talk:Ivory Coast/Archive 1

See below #Requested move

Wikipedia:Africa-related regional notice board/template An event mentioned in this article is a August 7 selected anniversary

Archive of Page History

(cur) (last) 06:16, Jun 17, 2002 Danny (redirected back to Cote d'Ivoire--see Talk)
(cur) (last) 14:42, Mar 14, 2002 Eclecticology (*This is a perfectly valid English name for the country)
(cur) (last) 14:30, Mar 14, 2002 Eclecticology
(cur) (last) 15:51, Feb 25, 2002 Conversion script m (Automated conversion)

--— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ed Poor (talk • contribs) 20:30, 2 December 2004 (UTC) (Archive of Page History)

Where is the archive? --Philip Baird Shearer 09:23, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Merge

I've merged Cote d'Ivoire into this page (with the title spelled correctly), but I'm too lazy to rename all the CIA-based X-of pages, which eventually need to be rewritten anyway. --Brion

I suppose the re-write is for next year, for now, I moved them Docu

destablise

The "US has been trying to destabilize for years" stuff is interesting, but leave it out if you can't document it.

name

Wikipedia:naming conventions (use English) suggests we should use Ivory Coast rather than the French. Dunc|☺ 13:25, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree it is a bad idea to call it Côte d'Ivoire, do we call Germany Germany or do we call it Deutschland? I think we call it by the English name: Germany. We should call Côte d'Ivoire by its English name: Ivory Coast, since this is the English Wikipedia. --ShaunMacPherson 17:04, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That claim has some merit. But if we follow that logic, shouldn't the article for the city of Coeur d'Alene, Idaho be renamed to Alene's Heart, Idaho? Or San Francisco to "Saint Francis", California? Of course not. The name Canada is simply a corrupted spelling of kanata, which is a Huron word meaning "village" or "meeting place", but we don't translate that either. All of these non-English originating words have been accepted in English as the name of the places they refer to, even though they could be translated from their original language into English. The nation of Côte d'Ivoire has asked the rest of the world to refer to them as Côte d'Ivoire, and not to translate their name. The US State Department even refers to them as Côte d'Ivoire. I don't see why we shouldn't honor Côte d'Ivoire's request. It would be different if they had never asked. --Steggall 20:42, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The issue is in the renaming. Coeur d'Alene shouldn't be renamed, because it is known as Coeur d'Alene in English. With Ivory Coast, it is the other way around: to call it Côte d'Ivoire is to rename it. The decision of the government of that country was absurd. I understand why many like to respect the decision, given its origin, but it is still absurd. Confusion in international fora? What about China? Are we to call it 中国? Would anyone know to pronounce this Zhōngguó? Côte d'Ivoire is rather hard to spell and pronounce correctly for non-French speakers. "Ivory Coast" is well established and clear for all. Chameleon 22:09, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A country isn't allowed to rename itself? Other countries have renamed themselves in the past and their changes have been accepted. Thailand, Zaire, Belize, and Surinam are all new names of countries. Should we have ignored their name changes because their previous names were well established? What if Côte d'Ivoire changed its name to "Wobbleonia"? Should we continue to call it by it's previous name simply because it was well established? People seem to have a problem because the name Côte d'Ivoire is a direct translation of how it is/was known in English. Steggall 00:09, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The BBC are using Ivory Coast http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/country_profiles/1043014.stm Dunc|☺ 22:45, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"A country isn't allowed to rename itself?" Of course they are, but that's not what Ivory Coast did. They tried to dictate the translation of their name into another language. Côte d'Ivoire is a French name for the country and has not changed. Ivory Coast is and always has been the English translation. If Congress declares that their country is United States, not Etats Unis, then the French-speaking world should be free to ignore such a silly declaration as well. Also, a quick scan of this article reveals that most, though not all, other Wikipedias have this article in a local language. Also, does this declaration by the govt of Ivory Coast apply to languages other than English and French? Do Arabic, Russian, and Chinese writers have to switch to a Latin alphabet when referring to this country? --Polynova 23:10, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

We've had an enormous discussion over whether "official" renamings should be treated as authoritative before, and the consensus was that they shouldn't, and that governments don't have any authority to dictate how English speakers use their language. We don't translate things into English, we use the form that is used by English speakers, which in this case is clearly "Ivory Coast". Talking about "Coeur d'Alene" is irrelevant, since English speakers call it that. Proteus (Talk) 14:05, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If the U.S. State Department calls it by the french name, that is the kind of indication we are looking for. How about other big organizations? I think the French is catching on and there's no need to be obstinate, except that the spelling is an obstacle. Tough call. Tom - Talk 23:06, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

The CIA calls it Cote d'Ivoire. The circumflex should go though. It doesn't matter what "cote" means in French. We're writing in English, in which circumflexes are an affectation.Dr Zen 02:12, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I feel inclined to note here that I had not read this talk page or the article history when I edited the article to put Côte d'Ivoire first, and I really didn't mean to step on a controversial issue without any discussion. Reading the article, and the note about the name, it just seemed like an obvious edit to make. Although I probably wouldn't have messed with it had I seen this discussion, I do stand by my edit: It definitely makes more sense to use their official name, especially since the U.S. government does so. ~leif ☺ _HELO 01:15, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Clearly the German government must be forced to call my country "Australia" in German rather than "Australien"! Apparently the Chinese don't even use Latin letters for Australia - that has to stop! Apparently every government in the world can tamper with English so I suppose the reciprocal is also the case. We need to start issing decrees interfering with other languages. Avalon 12:52, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Motto

Can someone verify that the motto is correct? It seems fishy to me. 68.162.73.121 00:52, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This PDF seems to confirm that the motto is Union-Discipline-Travail which means "Unity" (or "Union"), "Discipline", "Labour" (or "work"). Chameleon 09:13, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I seriously wish I knew what that was in Spanish...

Back to English

According to the article, most English speakers refer to it as "Ivory Coast" (with or without the initial article: "The Ivory Coast"). Despite the government's request or dictate that the "name cannot be translated".

Wikipedia is under no obligation to take sides in naming disputes, and clearly Cote d'Ivoire or Ivory Coast is trying to MAKE other people take its side.

Until English usage starts following the "Cote" version, I think we ought to stick to our guns: we do NOT take sides in naming disputes; we do NOT try to set an example by promoting "correct" (or politically correct) usage. We simply go with the flow and employ the most common usage -- which is Ivory Coast.

So I'm moving the article (back) from Côte d'Ivoire to Ivory Coast. The usage note in section 8 of the article will explain everything to readers, in case they think we are "bucking the trend".

This is not the international Wikipedia (we decided not to have one) - but the English-Language Wikipedia. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 20:21, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

The real reason?

Because of the disorder this could allegedly produce in international fora, in October 1985 the government requested that the country be known as Côte d'Ivoire in every language.

This insinuates that the government's stated reason is the real reason. But another possibility is that they are feeling out their strength: let's see if we can MAKE everyone do what we say.

I'd purely LOVE to see a Wikipedia article on national name changes. What motivates governments to rename their countries? I can understand changes from "Germany" to "Republic of Germany", but why change "Upper Volta" to "Burkina Faso" or "Rhodesia" to "Zimbabwe"?

Are they trying to assert their own identity and throw off the vestiges of colonialism? (Not that I'm against this, I'm just asking.) --user:Ed Poor (talk) 20:47, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

The country's present name is Côte d'Ivoire. Most people who say "Ivory Coast" do it out of sheer ignorance. There aren't many who know the name was changed and knowingly defy it by saying Ivory Coast. An encyclopaedia should enlighten the reader, not dumb down to his ignorance. Anyone looking for "Ivory Coast" will be redirected here without a problem. Gzornenplatz 22:31, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

I've come here through request for comments. To me it seems likely English speaking people will type and wikify "Ivory Coast". However, if Cote D'Ivore is the version preferred by its government, that's really the place it should be. I agree a redirect from Ivory Coast to this article is indeed the best solution. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 09:50, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

I also agree. Folks in Ghana (next door to Côte d'Ivoire, anglophone) also call it by that name. Wizzy 10:02, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

RFC reply. Cote d'Ivoire (without circumflex) seems to gain usage in official documents and many news sources worldwide since the Ivorean government announcement. So maybe in a few years it will come to dominate; in the mean time there's the argument that the French is in some sense more correct. (But at least "Ivory Coast" is a direct translation; I just lost the argument that East Germany should be housed at the correct English version, German Democratic Republic, on the basis of Wiki always using the most common English term full stop. See Wikipedia:Requested_moves Dec 14.) Rd232 14:59, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Consensus and unilateral un-doing

The consensus of this talk page is that calling the country "Ivory Coast" is in accordance with English Wikipedia policy. I have moved the article to Ivory Coast twice, and someone has surreptitiously moved it back twice. I don't know how to find out who did this, but I wish they would discuss their plan with others instead of taking unilateral, secretive action. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 18:44, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

Where do you see such a consensus? I see that Leif, Mgm, and Wizzy have agreed with me. Assuming a consensus is at least 80%, that would require 16 people agreeing with your view. Where are they? I'm also surprised that a veteran like you doesn't know how to find out who moved a page - just look at the page history of the redirect. Gzornenplatz 20:51, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

There is no consensus. And you arguments for moving the page to Ivory Coast make as much sense as moving United States to America. I wish I could say it was the first time your insularity has shown itself - Xed 22:32, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia Policy and Poll

Current wikipedia policy: Geographic articles should be named after what most English speakers would call them, even if that is different than the official English spelling. The official English spelling should still be mentioned in the article.

This policy was recently reaffirmed in a poll. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 18:49, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

Not if it's essentially a mistake, as opposed to a conscious decision. We also use diacritics, even though "most English speakers" tend to ignore them completely. Gzornenplatz 20:51, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

There is no consensus on using diacritic marks. A lot of people want to avoid using them in cases where most English speakers would not use them. (The macrons in Japanese names are a perfect example for all the Europeans here - how many of you know how to write Junichiro Koizumi's name with them? I use this because it's a far fairer example than the diacritics in your own languages, which of course you know.) Noel (talk) 04:14, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Our duty as Encyclopedia writers

1. We are an English-language encyclopedia, so we should call everything by whatever most English-speakers call it.
2. If this differs from something's "official name", we of course should discuss this difference as much as necessary to "enlighten" readers about it.

The country's present name is Côte d'Ivoire.

Not exactly. To be precise, the country's official English-language name is the French phrase Côte d'Ivoire. The article points out that the country wishes for its name NOT to be translated into English (or any other language).

No, it's the official name in all languages. And it being originally French is as irrelevant as the fact that Ecuador or El Salvador are originally Spanish phrases - they are the universal names of countries which you can't translate at will to "Equator" or "The Saviour". The only difference is that this universality of the name Côte d'Ivoire has only been introduced in 1985, and people are always slow to follow such changes. Gzornenplatz 20:51, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

Most people who say "Ivory Coast" do it out of sheer ignorance.

No need to be insulting. But if you would like to cite an authority who makes that point, please add it to the article: Prof. Vusette "Stu" Peed branded as "ignorant" anyone who would refer to "our beloved country" by anything other than its French name (source: Newsweek, August 4, 2003)

That's not an insult, it's just obvious that most people who say "Ivory Coast" are ignorant about this specific fact (doesn't mean they are generally ignorant people). Gzornenplatz 20:51, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

There aren't many who know the name was changed and knowingly defy it by saying Ivory Coast.

It's not a matter of defiance -- at least not on our part. Our policy is simply to go along with the majority of English speakers. Letting advocates (such as the US State Department, the United Nations, or even the country itself) tell us what to do is allowing THEM to dictate our policy. Well, Wikipedia is independent.

An encyclopaedia should enlighten the reader, not dumb down to his ignorance.

Sure, and that's why the 2nd paragraph refers readers to the naming issue in section 8. If you want, you can move the naming issue up to section 1 (right after the intro). If you think our readers are so dumb that they can't follow a link - or that they're in such dire need of enlightenment, then make a little more effort. But don't HIDE the fact that the country is STILL best known in the English-speaking world by the translated term "Ivory Coast" -- because that would PERPETUATE the kind of ignorance we're trying to eliminate.

I don't want to hide anything. We may write something like "(still often called Ivory Coast in English)". Gzornenplatz 20:51, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

Anyone looking for "Ivory Coast" will be redirected here without a problem.

It's just as easy to send them directly to the Ivory Coast article, and they won't be confused by the redirect notice. Anyone who cares about the country's official name (and their policy that no one ought to translate it) can obtain that info from the article. If the politically correct name of the country is the most important thing about the country, then by all means put this in the first paragraph.

• Ivory Coast (official name: Côte d'Ivoire) is a country in West Africa. In the year #### the government issued an edict forbidding foreigners from translating the name into their local languages and specifying that its French name is also its official English name. The UN and the US state department have followed suit, but the majority of English speakers still call it Ivory Coast.

I don't think the name is the most important thing, so I'd prefer to see this info in the 1st or 2nd section FOLLOWING the intro. However, I'm easy-going. If it has to go in the intro paragraph, so be it. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 19:10, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

I think it belongs in the intro - it is good where it is. I (personally) would prefer it at Côte d'Ivoire, but I do not care that much. It (somehow, and not just here) is an issue, and should be addressed early. Wizzy 19:46, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

I agree that regardless of which name is first, the ambiguity needs to be addressed in the first sentence to let people looking for either name know they've found the right article. And I still think it makes more sense to use the country's official name first, but I won't revert it again without a clear consensus on this talk page. ~leif ☺ _HELO 21:17, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Politics of name changes

I guess I'm going to have to do a Will Rogers on this one: he said he'd rather be right than be president. I'm going to defend Wikipedia policy, as laid out by founders Jimbo and Larry (and shaped by discussions and votes) -- even if causes me to "lose" the arbcom election. "I'd rather be right than be part of a committee."

Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(use_English) says:

• Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form. If you are talking about a person, country, town, movie or book, use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article . . .

Note that this means Côte d'Ivoire should redirect to the Ivory Coast article, which should begin something like this:

Ivory Coast (official name: Côte d'Ivoire) is a country . . .

I would also suggest that we find a way to satisfy those who really care about the request of Ivory Coast that non-Ivoirians refrain from translating the country's name into other languages. A note about this request (in the body of the article) would suffice, I think.

Also, thinking about this over the weekend I may have had an insight. Perhaps some contributors feel that by placing the Ivory Coast article on the Ivory Coast page somehow endorses the English tranlation as some sort of preferred usage. Well, it doesn't. It is simply Wikipedia policy to "name our pages in English ... unless the native form is more commonly used in English". (No one is suggesting to translate "Los Angeles" to "The Angels"; why? because the Spanish form is more commonly used in English.)

Now I'm going to go look for the page where this was all voted on a few months back. Then I'll cite that page, move the article back to its proper English title once more. If a minority insist on going against both (A) Wikipedia policy and (B) the vote re-affirming that policy, then I guess this will become a case for the arbcom. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 16:02, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

Oops, no I'm not: I could not find the page with the vote (did I imagine it?). So I guess we have to go through the whole process again. The question is: shall the English Wikipedia set its own standards for article titles, or should it bow to the will of various official entities such as the United Nations, selected "leading nations", and/or whatever a specific government says? If it's the latter, I fear a slippery slope where Wikipedia takes it upon itself to settle disputes much more serious than names; I would personally prefer the Wikipedia to stay out of all disputes and instead stand back and DESCRIBE these disputes with Olympian detachment. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 16:28, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming policy poll is probably what you're looking for. It's worth noting that the "Not at issue - the poll does not apply to these" section was never part of the vote, and most of the entries were added late in the day by proponents of the losing side when it became apparent that they would lose, in an attempt to exempt those pages from the implications of the vote. The statement "I agree with current wikipedia policy. Geographic articles should be named after what most English speakers would call them, even if that is different than the official English spelling. The official English spelling should still be mentioned in the article." is what is relevant, as it is what was being voted on, not the lists above it. Proteus (Talk) 17:01, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Proteus. I see the vote went 45 to 18 in favor of policy, i.e., "Geographic articles should be named after what most English speakers would call them, even if that is different than the official English spelling. The official English spelling should still be mentioned in the article." Therefore I will move Cote D'Ivoire back to Ivory Coast one more time. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 21:22, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

I think that policy should be interpreted to apply to distinguishing among arguably correct names. If a poll were to show that a majority of English speakers misspelled the state next to Alabama as Missisippi, I don't think we'd move the article there, with Mississippi reduced to a redirect. It seems that "Ivory Coast" is no longer a correct name. I favor putting the article at Côte d'Ivoire. What I feel more strongly about is the point made above by Leif: that "regardless of which name is first, the ambiguity needs to be addressed in the first sentence to let people looking for either name know they've found the right article." A model to follow is found at Myanmar. (Incidentally, Ed, it wouldn't surprise me if most English speakers still call the place "Burma". If so, would your reasoning call for moving that article?) JamesMLane 19:18, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

One of the main articles that caused that poll was Calcutta, which is in exactly the same situation as the Ivory Coast - the Indian government has decreed that its official English name is "Kolkata", but most English speakers still call it "Calcutta". The poll decided that it should be at the latter. And most English speakers call Myanmar "Myanmar" (except, of course, in historical contexts). Proteus (Talk) 10:55, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Since there is some amount of dispute as to whether or not the poll in question relates to this article, I would recomend that a new poll is created specifically for this article. Also, I think that a major quesiton is do more Wikipedia articles link to here through Ivory Coast or through Côte d'Ivoire? -KalevTait 23:06, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Far, far more link to Côte d'Ivoire, See [1] and [2] - Xed 23:38, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Using the criteria for Calcutta, and others of mine, Google says:

• 3,060,000 English pages for "Cote d Ivoire".
• 4,490,000 English pages for "Ivory Coast".
• CIA - The World Factbook -- Cote d'Ivoire
• BBC News - 1,124 results for "Ivory Coast", 72 results for "Cote d'Ivoire"
• Allafrica.com (news aggregator) - Cote d'Ivoire
• 154 from Google site:wikipedia.org for "Ivory Coast".
• 96 from Google site:wikipedia.org for "Cote d'Ivoire"

So - it seems Ivory Coast is ahead by a nose. It is possible it will slide to Cote d'Ivoire - but maybe we should not pre-judge ? Wizzy 11:32, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

Searching google for "Cote d'Ivoire" or "Côte d'Ivoire" gets 4,620,000, beating "Ivory Coast" by a slim margin. - Xed 22:58, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

First of all, redirects are cheap, so no matter what some types into Wikipedia's Search Field, whether it is Côte d'Ivoire, Cote d'Ivoire, or Ivory Coast, the person is still going to end up at the same article. So in a way, all of this argument is meaningless except as symbolism. But as can be seen from way too many edit wars on the Wikipedia on how to title the articles of various cities and countries, that symbolism is important to quite a few people. I can see why the symbolism is important to someone living in a region, and to partisans involved in disputes in those regions. What I have been totally unable to fathom is why using an English-language version for the name of a city or country is so absolutely important for anyone who has no other connection to the region.

In my opinion, the English-language Wikipedia is not, and really has never been just an English-language encyclopedia. Instead, just as English is the primary language for international commerce, for science, for other academic subjects, and for aviation, the English-language Wikipedia is an International encyclopedia that is written in the English language. That is the reason that there are numerous users on the Wikipedia whose primary language is not English, but they have still chosen to spend most of their time and effort editing articles in the English-language Wikipedia. Because of that, I think that we need to go out of way to show some sensitivity to things like the issue of naming cities, countries, and also to the naming of people. Since the country has asked that Côte d'Ivoire be used, why shouldn't the primary title of the article be Côte d'Ivoire? I can still type in Ivory Coast and still end up at the same place. The other reason to use Côte d'Ivoire is that it is the most accurate description of the country. [[User:GK|gK ¿?]] 13:36, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I totally agree. Some people feel strongly about the correct name being used, and the most common can redirect to it; redirects are cheap. (NB The commonly-cited example of Los Angeles/The Angels is a complete red herring - the latter is neither correct (local/official usage) nor common.) Rd232 15:07, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

See Naming conventions (country names), a page that (once developed) will hopefully clarify the matter and prevent unnecessary future debate. Rd232 13:25, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Some people here have stated that most english speakers call it Ivory Coast. Is there any objective evidence to support that belief? Or is it just based on personal experience/anecdote? Just wondering. My own subjective belief and experience (being doing research in and around African issues for about 15 years) is that most anglophones call it Côte d'Ivoire, but are not confused by 'Ivory Coast'. To my ears it sounds as obsolete as 'Gold Coast' instead of Ghana.

--Mount Pleasant 00:40, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't want to get involved in the name controversy, however, since Côte d'Ivoire is used, could someone include a pronounciation key? I, and probably most English speakers, don't speak French, and I believe it is common for many countries' articles with non-English names to include pronounciation guides. Anyway, thanks for any help. --Dmcdevit 20:27, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

FYI: The German Wikipedia recently changed its article name from "Côte d'Ivoire" to de:Elfenbeinküste. The reasoning was that "Elfenbeinküste" is the predominantly used German name for this country in the media as well as in encyclopedias like the Brockhaus, and that it doesn't really matter whether the name is "officially untranslantable". Many other Wikipedias also use the name translated into the respective language: da:Elfenbenskysten, eo:Ebur-Bordo, es:Costa de Marfil, fi:Norsunluurannikko etc. I think this article should be renamed to "Ivory Coast" as well. Or otherwise e.g. Switzerland should be renamed to its official name Confœderatio Helvetica and Russia to Rossiyskaya Federatsiya or what? ;-) Gestumblindi 23:29, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Once again these comparison with Russia and Switzerland are irrelevant. They would be if these countries officially demanded that everybody uses these original names which is clearly not the case. Kapo USA

It is in fact rather irrelevant to an encyclopedia what the countries officially demand - it should be described in the article, of course, but not necessarily dictate the choice of the lemma. The form most commonly used in English is the best choice for an English-language encyclopedia. If this form is indeed "Côte d'Ivoire", then fine. The "Google test" seems to support the use of "Côte d'Ivoire" (33,800,000 hits when restricted to English language sites compared to 21,400,000 for "Ivory Coast"). However, Google numbers don't always reflect media reality entirely. E.g.: what is heard on English-language television? What use widely-read newspapers? Based on the answers to such questions, a vindicable decision is possible, and it can well be a decision for "Côte d'Ivoire", granted (for German it was not, for the reasons outlined above). But not based upon "official demands." Gestumblindi 19:42, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Muslims

I don't think it's a good idea to to consider people from the north of Côte d'Ivoire as "Muslim". It's a fact that Alassane Ouattara and the rebellion leaders are Muslim. However, what I notice first is that they are of Burkinabé origins. To be accurate they are Mossis. Even if I have no statitistics the Mossis are well divided in Christian (mostly catholic but there's a significative protestan minority) and Muslim. There's no evidence of a conflict between religious communities in Burkina Faso. As of today it seems that there is a majority of people originating from Burkina Faso in northern Côte d'Ivoire and the majority of them are Mossis. I think they are many Christians among the supporters of the Rebels. IMO religion is not the key. The clash is between "Real Ivorian" vs "immigrants" and between very different political cultures. Burkina Faso balanced between Socialism/Marxism and occidental democracy while Houphouët-Boigny ruled Côte d'Ivoire with an iron hand and relying heavily on traditional chieftains. Even if Houphouët-Boigny was known in the West as the "Sage of Africa" it was perceveived as archaïc by most Burkinabé and people of Burkinabé origins. Ericd 11:08, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Departments

Statoids and the CIA seem to think the 19 regions are the top-level administrative divisions; the page we have here claims the 58 departments are the top level ones. Which is it? --Golbez 07:16, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Régions are the top-level administrative division; each Région is composed of one to seven Départements. In reality the Départements tend to have more of an impact on daily life. The Régions are groupings of Départements for administrative convenience. This information from personal experience (five years in Bouaké) and from a map I purchased at the Librarie de France in Abidjan, published by "Saint-Paul France S.A." (1999), ISBN 2-85049-813-0. Alan J Shea 01:40, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Requested move

The articles makes it clear that while the diplomatic name used is Côte d'Ivoire, "Despite the Ivorian government's ruling, "Ivory Coast" (sometimes "the Ivory Coast") is still the most commonly used name in English . . . Journalistic style guides usually (but not always) recommend "Ivory Coast"." Wikipedia policy is to use the most common name used in English. This does not necessarily mean the English name. In this case the English name is the one overwhelmingly used worldwide, including by major news gathering organisations like the BBC. To use Côte d'Ivoire involves breaking Wikipedia's own naming policy. It is like putting Germany in as Deutchland, Italy in as Italia or Spain in as Espana. If it is not the version used by English speakers then English Wikipedia does not use it, just as if French speakers use Côte d'Ivoire primarily French Wikipedia would not put the article in as Ivory Coast. Côte d'Ivoire completely goes against our agreed name usage in hundreds of thousands of articles here. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 01:41, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

:Add #Support or #Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

Support

1. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 01:41, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
2. Strong support This is a matter of principle. A group or nation may have the right to call themselves whatever they wish, in whatever language they wish. But this does not obligate others to abide by their wishes. We should point out, early on in the article, that Ivory Coast's "official English name" is its French name!!! But Wikipedia must not give in to this demand of letting people or groups force our policy to accommodate their wishes. Our goals are (1) to let our readers find information easily - with no jarring surprises; and (2) to describe fairly and impartially all disputes over what is "really correct" when their is a controrversy. Uncle Ed 15:00, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
3. Strong support. Agree completely with Jtdirl. The current name is contrary to both policy and common sense, and we shouldn't allow anyone, sovereign nation or otherwise, to dictate what we say. Proteus (Talk) 00:37, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose for now. Though our policy pages recommend most common usage our de facto policy is to pay a lot of attention to official names and native names (Breslau, anyone?). I could perhaps be convinced in this instance if the argument is compelling. What recent style guides, exactly, recommend Ivory Coast? And can we have some usage statistics? I think moving the article to Ivory Coast would be nice in that that would allow us to specify "no diacritics in country names" as a rule without exceptions. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 13:36, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

   The Oxford Manual of Style says it's "Ivory Coast", and doesn't even seem to deem "Côte d'Ivoire" a common enough mistake to be worth mentioning. Proteus (Talk) 00:41, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

2. Qero 17:28, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
3. OPPOSE. The country is called 'Cote d'Ivoire' nowadays in every language, we don't translate the name of every country into a literal meaning. We respected other countries when they wished to change from Persia to Iran and from Abyssinia to Ethiopia and from Burma to Myanmar and from Ceylon to Sri Lanka. We no longer translate "White Russia" for Belarus, nor "Kingdom of the South Slavs" for Yugoslavia. Respect for some countries wishes and not for others, should not be based on how much you personally like them. Codex Sinaiticus 19:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

   That is not Wikipedia policy. In an english language encyclopædia the version used by English language speakers is what is used, not the native version in a native language. English language users say Germany, not Deutchland, Republic of Ireland not Poblacht na hÉireann, Italy not Italia, and Ivory Coast not Côte d'Ivoire, so the articles belong under Wikipedia policy at Germany, Republic of Ireland, Italy and Ivory Coast. As to the claim that the country is called 'Côte d'Ivoire' that is simply not true. It is only called that by people in the country, French speakers, diplomats and the US State Department. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 20:23, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

   Comment - It would be a different story if Germany or Italy had ever made an official request to be internationally called 'Deutschland' or 'Italia'. But they have not AFAIK, so your logic doesn't hold. Iran, Ethiopia, Yugoslavia, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe, Myanmar, Burkina Faso, and Belarus I believe all made official requests at various times, and were all honoured. As for Ireland I think they did officially request to be called Eire once, so I would support that change as well. Codex Sinaiticus 00:08, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

   No it wouldn't. We do not use official names for states, nor do we do the bidding of governments. We use the name used by English speakers in English Wikipedia and nothing else. And no Éire is not an option. That was thrown up with a 'don't be ridiculous' tag the last time anyone suggested it. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:17, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

4. Strong oppose. Not only is Côte d'Ivoire (with diacritical mark) the official name and the one used by major world governments, it's peferred by Britannica, Encarta, Worldbook, and Encyclopedia.com. Not using it here looks lazy and ignorant, though I understand Ed's and others' concerns. —BrianSmithson 22:48, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
5. Strong oppose per Brian and my own experience. To say that style guides "usually support Ivory Coast" isn't borne out even by the sources cited here in the article (one recommends IC, the other C d'I, the third either one). It's going to take more than an even split to sway me away from the govt's official name, I think. Does anyone have an AP or NY Times guide? I really don't think this is an issue of us caving into the diplomatic pressure of the Ivorian government--I think this is really the most common usage these days. --Dvyost 23:12, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
6. Oppose. Google tests seem popular on Wikipedia [3] beats [4].
7. Oppose (neutral for now). Note that the Cote d'Ivoire (without diacritic) is what the CIA factbook calls it, so it can be anglicized in different ways. Also, whitehouse.gov (US President's office page) preferse C d'I 21 [5] to I C 10 [6], and so does number-10.gov.uk (UK PM's office page) 6 [7] to 3 [8], and neighboring Ghana's ghana.gov.gh prefers it 409 [9] to 29 [10]. Smmurphy 00:06, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

   *sigh* That is what it is called in diplomatic usage. If we were writing a diplomatic briefing document for diplomats that is what we would call it. But we are writing an encyclopædia for ordinary readers. What the CIA, Bush or Blair formally call it in diplomatic language is 100% irrelevant here. Diplomatic usage features at the top of the infobox in articles. It does not become the name of the article, as Wikipedia's own rules make clear. Wikipedia uses the version of the name used generally in the English language. That is Ivory Coast. That is not Côte d'Ivoire. It is perfectly simple. We go by the MoS and the relevant NCs, not Bush, Blair or the CIA. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 01:24, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

   Granted, however, the way people in high levels of government and in neighboring countries name a country holds more weight with me than news services, dictionaries, and the street (all of which are divided anyway). Which form are we teaching in the schools? I would think that secondary and university students would be very likely to use a page like this. Smmurphy 01:38, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

   Ivory Coast is in textbooks in school. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 02:28, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

   I tried to find some references at homeschool sites or at Ministries of Education type sites, but I really didn't feel convinced this is true. But searching amazon, childrens books mostly still use Ivory Coast.Smmurphy

8. Oppose. The governments of Australia and Canada also officially refer to the country as Côte d'Ivoire. Since that country has requested that their name not be translated, I see no reason not to honour their request. —Steggall 02:09, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

   They also refer to the United Republic of Tanzania, the United Kingdom as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, France as the French Republic and Germany as the Federal Republic of Germany. Wikipedia, like other sourcebooks never uses diplomatic names except in infoboxes. English WP's explicit mandatory policy is to use the common name used by English speakers, not the theoretical name used by diplomats. You obviously are unaware of WP rules on naming countries!!! FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 02:28, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

9. Strong oppose per Brian and Dvyost.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 08:25, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
10. Oppose per Brian and Dvyost. — mark ✎ 09:25, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
11. Oppose per Dvyost. Wizzy…☎ 09:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

See also higher up the page much of the other sections are on this subject --Philip Baird Shearer 08:57, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

In the early '90s the country officially changed its name in English to Cote d'Ivoire. Ivory Coast is no longer the name of the country, just as Burkina Faso is no longer Upper Volta. Danny

I've checked this out myself, because this is so counterintuitive. "Côte d'Ivoire" has always been the recognized French name and this has never changed. "Ivory Coast" has always been the usual and ordinary English translation of the name. Even in an English Wikipedia we can be trumped by politicians who have decreed that a French name shall also serve as the English form of the name. Other countries such as Equatorial Guinea and Dominican Republic use the translated form for English applications.

The Upper Volta situation was a simple and outright change of name. Its former French name was "Haute Volta". --Eclecticology

Some further confirmation - on the official (English) United Nations (see member list) the name is Cote d'Ivoire, not Ivory Coast. Manning Bartlett, Monday, June 17, 2002

I saw that too, but I would be very cautious about this. How many readers would think of looking under the letter "U" for "Unified Republic of Tanzania"?

It's Côte d'Ivoire, not Cote d'Ivoire. Côte is coast, côt&eacute is side, and cote I'm not sure of (rib?). As to Burkina Faso, they had to change all the Upper Voltaic piles to Burkinabé batteries :) -phma

They were clearly a big electric pain in the ass. Just kidding, of course!

cote [kɔt] nf -1. [marque de classement] classification mark; [marque numérale] serial number. -2. FIN quotation. -3. [popularité] rating. -4. [niveau] level; ~ d'alerte [de cours d'eau] danger level; fig crisis point. --Larousse de poche

The United Nations is not an objective source, any more than the United States Congress is an objective source. America's Congress serves the interests of the American (US) people, or to be more precise, the senators and representatives are accountable to the citizens who elect them - many politicians have self-serving agendas and/or cater to special interests.

The UN General Assembly is no different and is probably worse. Its representatives are NOT elected, but are each appointed by the goverments of the 200-odd member nations. Each nation typically seeks its own "national interests". Voting blocs declare or un-declare things like "Zionism is racism", and the IPCC's position on global warming is not based on science but on votes.

What diplomats choose to do, in their narrow, tiny community is their business. We have an encyclopedia to run. We make our own policy, and it is to use the most common English words for the page titles of topics. "Ivory Coast" is still the most commonly used name in English for Cote d'Ivoire. So move the page to Ivory Coast and include a note clarifying that we are not saying that the correct English name is Ivory Coast. Uncle Ed 15:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Most commonly used is Côte d'Ivoire. - see [11] vs [12] - Xed 23:29, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Firstly google searches are usually worthless (one even proves that the Prince of Wales possesses a name he does not have, and gives the wrong first name for a British PM!). Secondly the french version of the name only shows up as more popular when all language options are checked, because that includes french references. One limited to English pages shows Ivory Coast to be more popular. It is also used by a far wider list of English language sources. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:24, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

(Purely out of curiosity, which PM? Proteus (Talk) 00:44, 12 November 2005 (UTC))

There was a disagreement over Gladstone on WP (a naming thing *yawn*) and google was used to prove that his middle name was not called Herbert. It also got information about Spencer Percival wrong, and proved (to the hilarity of the Prince of Wales's office when I told him) that Charles was definitely surnamed Windsor which actually he has not been since the 1960s when he was renamed Mountbatten-Windsor. It also got information about Nancy Reagan wrong, information of JFK wrong, details about Ireland's first president wrong. I even featured on some sites when I worked for the Government and a google search proved I was three years older than I am, was born a hundred miles away from where I was born, was married, had a degree in marketing (I don't), know George H. and George W. Bush (it is actually Bill Clinton) Zeech! FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 06:54, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

• Bottom line, it's an international request, and every single such international request from every other state has always been honoured. We use the spelling Myanmar, not Burma as of 1989. Exact same thing. We use Beijing instead of Peking. We use Thailand instead of Siam. In each of these cases, the nation in question asked not to be called the former name. Why should Cote d'Ivoire be any different, just because a noisy minority of hardliners like Ed and Jtdirl are obstinate to change. Codex Sinaiticus 00:36, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

• • Completely incorrect. Myanmar is a new name. The Chinese capital's name was not changed. Beijing is produced because the manner in which Chinese is translated into English changed decades ago. It was our translation, not their city's name, that changed! Peking is simply the older translation, not a new name. Thailand is the name used internationally. International requests are worthless. We are not in the pay of Ivory Coast's government. They have no right to tell the world what name to use. They can request that in diplomatic discourse a name is used, and that is followed by diplomats. But Ivory Coast is the name used worldwide by original English speakers. Côte d'Ivoire is not a new name like Myanmar. It is simply a translation of the previous name and no government is legally entitled to request that other languages use their preferred language in their own languages. That does not happen. Germany doesn't call itself Germany in German. But it would burst out laughing if we tried to use the German name that few recognised, in place of the English name everyone uses. If the world still used Siam, and the government called itself the Kingdom of Thailand, the article would be at Siam, just as we have the Republic of Ireland, not Poblacht na hÉireann, even though the official language of Ireland is Irish, not English. Your argument is based on fundamental misunderstandings of how language is used internationally, fundamental misunderstandings of the difference between general and registered state names and a complete misunderstanding of basic Wikipedia rules as followed in articles on 100s of states. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:55, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

• No, you're completely wrong on all counts. Myanmar is NOT a "new name". It's a different spelling of the same old name, it's just the spelling the military junta asked the world to use in 1989, and the world has mostly complied. Please read Explanation of the names of Burma/Myanmar. If you as an English speaker wish to continue to use "Ivory Coast", speak for yourself, but the MAJORITY of English speakers now use Cote d'Ivoire, and so far you don't have anywhere near enough votes to justify a page move, no matter how strong-ly you support it as an individual voter. Codex Sinaiticus 01:10, 12 November 2005 (UTC) What you wrote about Beijing isn't quite right either... It's called Beijing (Peking is the older pronunciation) because of the fact that the PRC changed the actual name in 1949, otherwise we'd still be calling it Peiping... Codex Sinaiticus 01:18, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

• Again. Wrong. The claim that a majority of English speakers use the french version of the name is patiently untrue. The beggars belief that anyone acquainted with the topic to even the smallest extent could actually make such a claim. Do not presume that the US State Department usage = the world. It is such a ridiculously illinformed claim as to be laughable. Even google searches show that when focused on English speakers.

   * 3,060,000 English pages for "Cote d Ivoire".
   * 4,490,000 English pages for "Ivory Coast".
   * CIA - The World Factbook -- Cote d'Ivoire
   * BBC News - 1,124 results for "Ivory Coast", 72 results for "Cote d'Ivoire"
   * Allafrica.com (news aggregator) - Cote d'Ivoire
   * 154 from Google site:wikipedia.org for "Ivory Coast".
   * 96 from Google site:wikipedia.org for "Cote d'Ivoire"

FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 01:18, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

So you're not going to count the hits with the circumflex in with the total?? Codex Sinaiticus 01:31, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

• Comment. Just wanted to put in here that this seems to be getting needlessly heated here. From all this talk about matter of principle and not being dictated to by other nations, it sounds like Cote d'Ivoire's poised to invade at any moment if only they get their way on the name thing... Anyway, I don't think either side is ill-informed or laughable here; the best thing to do would be to work together to figure out what the consensus is in recent publications. I don't think either answer is going to be a crisis... --Dvyost 01:47, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

• • The problem is twofold. This article is under an name that is unused and indeed would be unrecognisable in most of the English-speaking world. Second WP rules are explicit in making clear it should not be here. People have been pointing out for months that it is wrong for this article to be following different naming conventions to those followed throughout WP for all other countries. It also makes no logical sense to say that we refuse to follow our own mandatory rules on naming. Users who have been involved in creating articles under WP rules have been grumbling for months about the ludicrousness of having one article different to two hundred others. If the inguistic rules being advocated here for this page were followed elsewhere Wikipedia would be an unreadable mess. For example, King Henry I of England would have to be at Henri I because the language of the English court (and his language) was Norman French. Pope John Paul II would have to be at Johannes Paulus II because that was the pope's official name in the official language of his state. Mary Robinson would have to be at Maire Mhic Róbin because that was her name in her country's official language. Rome would be at Roma. Dublin would be at Baile Atha Cliath. Navan would be at An Uaimh. The issue is simple. Either all articles must follow the same MoS and NC rules, or none must. This article right now is stuck down a lingiustic cul de sac. It makes compiling an professional encyclopædia when one group of people on one page insist that the rules followed by rest of Wikipedia in over 800,000 articles can't apply to it. It reduces WP to the level of an unprofessional joke. WP deserves better than such amateurishness.FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 02:45, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

The entire strength of your argument rests on your insistence on the claim that "Ivory Coast" is currently the more prevalent term. As you can see, this claim is disputed, the people disputing it are English speakers, and all evidence so far, including the required consensus vote, would seem to point to "Cote d'Ivoire" (with or without circumflex) being the more widely used term in English. When it comes down to it, the only evidence seen so far that Ivory Coast is more widely prevalent among English speakers around the whole world (and not just in one small burgh), is your repeated say-so. Codex Sinaiticus 02:52, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Have to agree with Codex here. Are you really going to say that the Economist and the Guardian are "amateurish," "ludricous," "unprofessional jokes," or any of the other silly name-calling that's showing up on this page? Or the encylopedias (including Britannica) that BrianSmithson named? Where the consensus lies is, I think, uncertain based on what's been presented here so far, but what is abundantly clear is that there's professional, intelligent sources that go either way on this; I don't think it's fair to summarize either position here as "ludicrous." When in doubt, I say, fall back on WP:CITE: let's see how many more sources we can find on this and try to find a consensus. Fair enough? --Dvyost 03:07, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Er, sorry, just realized I've been misreading that sentence about the Guardian in the last five comments; maybe I am ludicrous after all. Nonetheless, I'm still not persuaded that the Economist staff are a bunch of amateurish idiots. --Dvyost 06:41, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually the Economist is famed for using terms that it adopts but no-one else does. It likes to say (it says it a lot) that it is ahead of everyone and everyone will follow, but they rarely do. lol. (It is known to some in the media business and "Economist cul-de-sacing". It announces "and now we will do it this way. Everyone will copy. You'll see" and then quitely (on an average of after 18 months) pulls 9 out of 10 of its 'innovations' and hopes no-one notices. We in the media always do and slag it unmercifully over it.) A more broadbased source is the BBC, which broadcasts in English to every continent. If a majority of English speakers used the french name the BBC would. It is very strict on following international not British usage. (Their critics accuse them of PC overload sometimes.) The fact that an organisation that broadcasts stations in Europe, the Americas, Asia, Africa and has broadcasts to Australasia uses Ivory Coast in all its English broadcasts is clear evidence on English usage.

As to Codex's increasing flailing around trying to prove the point, the fact that he uses as evidence a handful of people here on the basis that they are English speakers, speaks volumes. And yes, to insist contrary to evidence from worldwide sources like the BBC who are ultra careful with language, contrary to relevant google searches on English pages, contrary to established Wikipedia policy in 800,000+ articles that WP should use a name not generally used by English speakers, but use a name reserved almost exclusively for diplomatic usage, when we don't use the diplomatic name as the article name but use the generally used name, is ludicrous. Reading people's comments I get the impression that few people participating in the debate have read the MoS or the NCs. It might help if people like Codex actually knew how WP names articles on countries, because there is no evidence of it from his comments. It makes an ass of WP to have 200 articles on countries following one criteria, and thousands of editors using MoS rules, but for one article to do the exact opposite to what the rules instruct us to do. Right now this article is down a cul-de-sac, with a name few use or would recognise in English. If people want to leave it as a dead article down a cul-de-sac that is their right though at some stage when it comes to pulling WP together for the hardcopy version, my guess is that the editors brought in will take on look at this page, mutter "what the f*** is it doing at that name?" and rename it without a vote, given that it breaks a mandatory WP rule on name usage. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 07:15, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I guess I'll just mention one more time that I think what's called for here is not an argument about who knows MoS better, but rather some more citations investigating the issue. 3 million Google hits suggests to me that Cote d'Ivoire is not used only by a diplomatic and academic elite--rather, it seems to me to be coming into the more common usage.

What I'd be interested to do would be to consult as many current journalistic manuals of style as well as academic journals as we can; maybe books also, but that seems that it would be much harder to do. I agree absolutely and whole-heartedly that we should use the most common English language name, in keeping with the MoS; however, I don't agree that we can rely on the BBC as the ultimate arbiter of the most common English language terms (it's a great start, but I'm not willing to accept it alone). I also mistrust Google rankings for the same reasons you cite above on this page. So let's just find some other sources, instead of worrying about each other's wikihistory, ok? --Dvyost 08:00, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

As far as citations goes, google scholar gives 19,000 results [13] for Ivory Coast and only 3,040 results [14] for Cote d'Ivoire.Smmurphy 09:06, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

the fact that he uses as evidence a handful of people here on the basis that they are English speakers, speaks volumes. Well, let me re-iterate that I support Codex, and that I am one of a handful of people here, and I am an English speaker, and I have travelled through the region. Wizzy…☎ 08:38, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Politics of name change

Who says the government issued its "no translation" edict to prevent "disorder" that might come if people continued to use the old "Ivory Coast" name? Uncle Ed 19:48, 11 November 2005 (UTC)