Talk:Hugo Chávez/Archive 5

New Featured Article Candidacy (FAC) in progress

The English-language Hugo Chávez article is currently subject to a FAC. You can vote and place comments here. Please express yourself freely about how this article stands in terms of comprehensiveness, POV issues, structure, chronology, adherence to FA standards, style, layout, et cetera. Saravask 02:13, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

1999 Constitution

The article says the 1999 Constitutional Assembly was a move "to bypass [...] opposition". Actually, the appointment of a Constitutional Assembly was a main point in Chavez's 1998 electoral campaign and in fact, when taking his oath in January 1999 he called the 1961 Constitution "esta constitución moribunda" (this dying constitution). JRSP 15:34, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

It is true that his interest in constitutional reform (a new constitution) began before 1999. In fact, it began even before his 1992 coup. However, in the passage you quoted, "opposition" should be taken as the puntofijismo system and the political parties that benefited from it. Chavez saw the new constitution as a means to bypass opposition in 1992, in 1998 (as part of his campaign pledges), AND in 1999. Therefore, there is no contradiction or inaccuracy in the article. Readers will find this clear when they look at the Constitution of Venezuela article, which I refurbished a few days ago, where I provided (with sources) the same rationale. Saravask 16:31, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Why are the Talk Archives not linked ?

Why are the Talk Archives not linked ? Ericd 21:28, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

They are linked. Look above and you will see the numbers "01", "02", etc. Those are the archives, and they are labelled as such. Regards, Saravask 22:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

What does this mean?

latest change doesn't make sense. What does this as a sentence by itself mean: The Carter Center endorsed 1998 presidential election on December 6, 1998 with 56.2% of the vote. The is something amiss there.

That change was made by 128.135.221.186. I undid that change, and also removed the words "considerable" and "renowned". Saravask 20:18, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

"participatory economics"

Chávez has also overseen widespread state-supported experimentation in participatory economics

While Chavez's economics may be "participatory"; they are not participatory economics, a phrase invented by Michael Albert and Robin Hahnel to discuss a particular economic system involving balanced job complexes (not in Venezuela), iteration facilitation boards (not in Venezuela), renumeration for sacrifice (not in Venezuela), etc. Venezuela may indeed be the closest the world has ever seen to participatory economics, but there's no evidence that they were widely influenced by Albert and Hahnel's ideas; indeed, reading Albert's thoughts after his recent trip there, it's clear there's a big gulf between his thinking and the Bolivarian Revolution. DanKeshet 23:26, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I changed the language to exclude mention of parecon, until I can find sources linking Chavez to this system. Now, the statement reads "citizen- and worker-managed governance ...". I have sources for this, and am putting them in now. Regards, Saravask 01:15, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Stylistic concerns

I'm still not sure about having the TOC on the left of the "early life" section. It comes across as making both the TOC and the first section look very unprofessional and aesthetically unpleasing, what with how the TOC interacts with the bar and header of "early life", and that the bottom of the infobox comes down to touch the section on the right just doubles the problems. I think we need to overcome our horror vacui, bite the bullet, and just let a little white space appear next to the TOC. Contrary to what you may think, doing so could actually make the article more appealing and readable, by giving it room to breathe and setting the distinction between the opening paras and the beginning of the in-depth article text much more clearly. Consider it, at least.

Also, a question: why all the ^superscript? I've never seen a Wikipedia article that uses 21^st century instead of just 21st century. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) doesn't use it. -Silence 18:15, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

A paratrooper of humble origins?

Current version: "A paratrooper of humble origins, Chávez founded the Movement for the Fifth Republic (MVR) in 1994 after his pardoning for the 1992 coup d'état."

Previous version: "Born into a poor family and having earned a distinguished military service record, Chávez's formal political career began when he founded the MVR in 1994, immediately after being pardoned for an abortive 1992 coup d'état."

I think there's some significant problems with both versions. Why doesn't it say anywhere else that he was a paratrooper? The current one doesn't make it clear that the first five words are trying to establish his early life very quickly, while the previous one is oddly-phrased with "Born into a poor family and having...", as the two don't really go together, and in any case don't link to the next statement. Maybe something like "Born into a poor family, Chávez rose quickly through the military ranks. His formal political career began when he founded the MVR in 1994, immediately after being pardoned for a failed 1992 coup d'état." -Silence 19:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I prefer humble origins instead of poor family. Why? I think it should all be viewed and compared relative to local realities. A middle class person in one country could be rich in another, if measured by the actual things he owns and has access to. Whereas a relatively poor person in a well developped country could be middle class in a poor country. But humble origins is a more universal concept: yes, they were not rich, but they had enough to get by with a normal life (however relative that might be). As to being a paratrooper, I do not think it is that relevant; he was from the army and that should be enough; what he was assigned to, when a amid-level commander, should not matter that much (tank, artillery, engineer corps, etc.) ... but yes, it doesn't hurt having it in the article. --Anagnorisis 04:41, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Chavez and his family were not exactly starving or neglected, given that he went to school, got college scholarships, had a White girlfriend (Herma Marksman), etc. And Chavez has extremely wealthy ancestors (for example, Maisanta, who was a wealthy landowner who owned a vast plantation (although it was confiscated before Chavez was born). Saravask 05:00, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. "Humble origins" is highly unencyclopedic: it's too coy, too politically correct, too vague. "Humble" is a judgment call, and a positive statement; "poor" (or "impoverished" or some other synonym, if you prefer) is not a judgment call, and is a neutral statement. And "poor" does not mean "lower class" or "middle class" or "below average", it means "Having little or no wealth and few or no possessions." Thus it is a universal term, not a relative one (it's not an exact term, certainly, but it's vastly more exact and understandable than "humble"). Humble in your context means "Low in rank, quality, or station; unpretentious or lowly"; if we said "low in rank", "unpretentious", or "lowly" instead of "humble", would it be acceptable? If not, then let's find a better word. We also certainly need a better word than "origins", which suggests a long lineage of "humble" people (contradicting your claims about his ancestry) and is, again, far too coy and vague, when simply saying that he was born into a lower-class family would do fine. -Silence 05:41, 14 November 2005 (UTC)