Wikipedia talk:Quickpolls/Archive 1

Poll on the actual proposed policy (19 for; 3-4 opposed; 1 abstaining)

People who support the current quickpolls proposal

1. —Eloquence 15:44, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
2. Anthony DiPierro 15:55, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC) Support, with one tweak: "If the vote subsequently drops below 70%, the remedy should be reversed."
3. Angela - agree with Anthony.
4. Ruhrjung 16:00, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC) - although I seriously would like to see longer lasting bans
5. Seth Ilys 22:21, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC) - although there should be time-limits on how long quickpolls stay open -- say, 2 or 3 days?
6. Secretlondon yes - but I would like there to be a minimum time - especially for political issues which may have a regional bias.
   • Better to handle with "...drops below X%, the remedy should be reversed."--Ruhrjung 22:34, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
   • The normal rules of sleep do not apply to Wikipedians ;-).—Eloquence 22:40, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
   • They do for those of us with office jobs :( Secretlondon 23:11, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
7. Cyan 22:39, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
8. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 22:50, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC) (Although see tqo suggestions below)
9. Dori | Talk 22:53, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
10. BCorr¤Брайен 22:55, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
11. Davodd 23:05, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
12. fabiform | talk 23:07, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC) and I think there shouldn't be restrictions on the number of polls someone can call unless it turns out that the system isn't self-correcting
13. Perl (Mabye 75 percent?)
14. Taku 17:09, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)
15. Hephaestos|§ 17:12, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
16. Fred Bauder 17:17, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)
17. William M. Connolley 18:49, 2004 Mar 16 (UTC)
18. Eloquence has convinced me. I am changing my vote. Kingturtle 04:41, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
19. Tannin 02:31, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC) Most of my reservations have been dealt with now. Let's do it.
20. Martin 02:16, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC) I have reservations: I think four weeks is slightly too long for desysopping, and I think the three month requirement is a mistake, and I'd prefer a more incremental introduction, but I can live with this as v1.0.

People opposed to specific proposal, but with ideas for improvements that may change their vote, if accepted

(Please list any changes you would like to make next to your vote.)

1. Oppose. All quick results need to be for short, limited times, not indefinite. The idea is to modify behavior, not be a court without due process. Normal discusion of a problem can handle things after no more than a few repeated offences and quick actions. Things like referring to aribtration are not suitable for a quick poll. Jamesday 23:14, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
2. Oppose. Changes I (+sj+) would like to see before voting for this :
   • A more gradual introduction of this idea. This is a *major* and abusable change. I don't like the idea of quickpolls doing anything 'permanently'. Regular one-week bans/desysopping until a case can go to arbitration seems much less offensive to the victim, and quite sustainable.
     • Quickpolls don't do anything permanent unless approved by arbitration. This was temporarily removed by Martin but I think it's a necessary protection.—Eloquence
   • Additionally, I think "2d and 3d offenses" should both indicate only a 24-hr ban, while "4th & further offenses" should allow up to a week ban. This would be a more moderate first step; after a couple months of trial use, I would be open to broadening or hardening the policy.
     • This is already a very lenient policy. I'm not willing to soften it further in the initial phase. But I'd be open to softening in case it turns out to be a problem.—Eloquence
       • Better now. But I do think some min number of edits -- 10? that's what we use when calculating Stats:#-of-users -- should be required, to get a sense of the voter.
     • Here's a detailed 'worst-case scenario'.
       • That's more of a story than a scenario, and not a very realistic one at that, largely because any quickpoll requires prior warnings about the policy in question
         • Ah! This was unclear. "repeat offenders" could apply to 'someone who has violated any policy in the past' (indeed, I only just now realized the other way to parse it). The new wording is great.
       • ...and also because it has an unrealistic "one against everyone" view of Wikipedia editing.
         • Right. story it was; 'scenario' in quotes. I agree its unrealistic.
       • Now, the only point from that scenario which I can agree on is problematic is that of a one-week-desysopping being hard to undo once it has become final. A quick-resysopping clause on WP:RfA might sense; on the other hand, if people change their opinions so quickly, then maybe it's a good thing that they get some time to think about them first.—Eloquence
         • See new comment below on min. length of time.
   • A less strident voting policy, coupled with a more strident listing policy. (I don't like the idea of every user with 3mo+100 edits being encouraged to edit Wikipedia:Recentchanges whenever they are in a really foul mood!) Perhaps 4mo+400 edits, or adminship, to list a quickpoll; only 1mo+100 edits to vote in one. (that should be enough to avoid endless sockpuppets; as with any poll, the vote of someone demonstrated to be a sockpuppet can be ignored.) Adminship should suffice to 'qualify' a user. +sj+ 12:20, 2004 Mar 20 (UTC)
     • The voting policy is already less strident - there is no 100 edit policy any longer. Please read the current version of the proposal.—Eloquence 00:15, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)
       • Now the barrier to ranting on RC is really too low. Most of the time when I visit RC, I absolutely don't want to see emotional comments about who's abusing whom. 99% of edits to WP are not about that. How about limiting the allowable RC change to a single link, on a new Quickpolls: line created for this purpose, consisting only of UserA:UserB, where UserA is listing a poll regarding UserB?
   • A minimum length of time a poll must be left up before acting on it, perhaps an hour? Again, make slow changes... this can be strengthened if it isn't abused.

People opposed to the idea

1. Oppose strongly. --Wik 23:57, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
2. Eclecticology 05:04, 2004 Mar 15 (UTC) It's just more bureaucracy.

---

General Comments about the proposed policy

While I support this enthusiastically, I think its use should be extremely rare. While full blocks are the only way to deal with pure vandals, it would be nice for there to be allowance for people blocked this way, who might not be vandals but simply get carried away in a dispute, to at least be able to participate on talk pages. Per-page protection is another possibility (I assume per-page protection would not apply to talk pages as well). Unfortunately, these protections are not currently technically possible, but I hope this political "solution" does not stop the desire to have the technical techniques added. Anthony DiPierro 23:16, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

As long as we speak of 24-hours ban, it can hardly be any concern that the banned user is blocked also from talk-pages. This scheme can be realized without any software changes. Per-page protection and other alternatives seem to be a much later possibility.--Ruhrjung 23:34, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This scheme can be realized without any software changes, and that's why I support it. But I see it as a less than optimal solution. I'm not sure why you say it can hardly be a concern to block non-vandals from talk pages. It is a concern, at least to me, and I would think others share that concern. Again, we're not talking about someone intentionally destroying Wikipedia (although that is one of the three posibilities). Anthony DiPierro 23:21, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Of course it would be a serious concern and a severe condition if the ban laster longer than 24 hours.--Ruhrjung 17:53, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Problems already resolved

Moved to Wikipedia_talk:Quickpolls/Initial proposal resolved issues

Problems to be resolved

"Persecution" issue

I'm worried about political abuse - but we'll see how it goes. If it is clear that people with minority politics are being targeted then I think we will need to review and make amends if necessary. Secretlondon 23:12, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The problem is that I don't think it will be - I expect that 172 will be listed here and maybe even myself. However I don't expect RickK or VeryVerily to end up being listed. Can you see the problem? Everything we have so far has been used for partisan ends, why should this be any different? I'm sorry if this is too blunt - but there seems to be a fair amount of minority baiting atmSecretlondon 23:21, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's almost certain that RickK will be listed here promptly for not following deletion policy. I've considered listing him for desysopping for that reason at least once a month for many months now. Jamesday 23:23, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You just won't go to sleep will you Secretlondon? What do you mean by minorities? Trolls are in the minority, so are crackpot theorists, should they be left free to roam? As long as people abide by the policies, it doesn't matter whether they are in the minority does it? Dori | Talk 23:26, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)

Minorities are for instance Poles who feel that Allied (including Soviet) views have been purported wrongly for 60 years. And people with a less rosy view of USA and UK, remember this is an Anglophone forum.--Ruhrjung 23:30, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That doesn't solve the issue of verifiability. There are plenty of people that feel the US committed the 9/11 attacks, should they be allowed to express that in articles? Dori | Talk 23:33, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)

However, more fair schemes would require software changes, and that would certainly take some time to accomplish.--Ruhrjung 23:32, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't know, I think at least 20% of the regulars here are fair minded and can look past partisan disputes. And for those whose edits are rejected by an overwhelming majority of people, they're not going to win in the end anyway. Personally I will vote against a 24-hour ban for anyone participating on the talk page unless they are obviously trolling or there has been a strong consensus reached against them and yet they continue to force their viewpoint. Anthony DiPierro 23:43, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

permananent de-sysopping issue

if the user in question is a sysop, a temporary desysopping (until the case is heard by arbitration, which may reinstate sysop privileges)

What if the arbitration committee refuse the case? Does the desysopping become permanent as it seems to have done in the case of 168...? Angela. 15:56, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)

If they refuse to hear it, that means the decision is obvious and does not need review. So the answer to your question is yes, until sysop status is granted again on

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship.—Eloquence 15:59, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)

If they refuse to hear it it could just mean that the AC is overwhelmed with work. Eclecticology 05:04, 2004 Mar 15 (UTC)

At first glance I was that this could be a problem, but it is largely up to me to make sure I don't do something worthy of being desysopped. The only issue is that it could take a week to restore someone's status, but if there are still more than 70% of the quickpoll votes in support of the desysopping, that shouldn't be a problem. -- BCorr¤Брайен 22:55, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)

If they refuse to hear it, it's obvious that they don't think there is a case to be heard and the action should be immediately undone. Jamesday 23:17, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

de-sysoping based on quickpoll should be limited to 24 hours at a time, rather than until heard by arbcom. Martin

All that would accomplish is added overhead: Say the arbitration commission takes the case after a week, and people feel that a sysop has egregiously violated policy - now they have to confirm that every day, with proper announcement of the poll etc. But this additional bureaucracy accomplishes nothing. We already have the "falling support" requirement - as soon as people stop supporting the desysoping, the sysop can be reinstated. And we have WP:RFA, where people can try to build consensus on a reinstatement. Please construct what you think would be a worst case scenario to determine whether this 24 hour limit is actually needed, or whether it just makes things more complicated..—Eloquence

All quick results need to be for short, limited times, not indefinite. The idea is to modify behavior, not be a court without due process. Normal discusion of a problem can handle things after no more than a few repeated offences and quick actions. Things like referring to aribtration are not suitable for a quick poll. Jamesday 23:14, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The arbitration commission can always refuse to hear a case. The only difference here is that there's more support to hear it.—Eloquence 23:17, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)

So this is a way of bypassing the arbitration committee? Secretlondon 23:18, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'll happily support anything with 24 hour time limits, but not something unlimited. We can hold non-quick polls and consensus building if repeated quick actions aren't doing the job. Jamesday 23:21, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's up to them to decide if they want to make a decision. In any case, we are talking about temporary blocks or actions which can be easily undone if there is community support to do so.—Eloquence 23:24, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)

Worst case scenarios, as requested by Erik:

1. Alice is a sysop. She edits a protected page to insert her POV. It's a repeat offence. She's been warned before.
2. Bob doesn't like this, and starts a quickpoll. In about an hour, there are ten votes in favour: after all, it was an open and shut case.
3. Dave the Developer de-sysops Alice for 24 hours, and asks the arbitration committee to hear the case.
4. Meanwhile, Alice, realising the breadth of opposition to her actions, decides to change her ways. So, were she re-sysopped, she'd be a good and useful sysop.
5. The arbitration committee is busy, and doesn't hear the case for a couple of weeks. It's got a backlog, perhaps (more than likely). Half the committee is on holiday. Whatever. When it does here it, it takes three weeks to make a decision (entirely plausible, on past form).
6. Alice gets more and more frustrated by the impasse, and quits Wikipedia in anger. We make an enemy of a former friend.

Second scenario:

1. Geri is a sysop. She edits a protected page to insert her POV. It's a repeat offence. She's been warned before.
2. Hugh doesn't like this, and starts a quickpoll. In about an hour, there are ten votes in favour: after all, it was an open and shut case.
3. Dave the Developer de-sysops Geri for 24 hours, and asks the arbitration committee to hear the case.
4. Meanwhile, Geri , realising the breadth of opposition to her actions, decides to change her ways. So, were she re-sysopped, she'd be a good and useful sysop.
5. The arbitration committee accepts the case. It then spends a week investigating the issue, taking statements, discussing the matter, and so forth. All of this is completely wasted time.

third scenario:

1. Jeremy is a sysop. He edits a protected page to insert his POV. It's a repeat offence. he's been warned before.
2. Karen doesn't like this, and starts a quickpoll. Nobody votes for it, because they've seen what happened to 168... and Alice, and Geri, and Jeremy's basically a good guy.
3. Jeremy, emboldened by this, carries on. Other sysops follow Jeremy's example. We get vigilante justice, block wars, protection wars, non-sysops become second class citizens. Wikipedia fails.

The third scenario is hyperbolic, but representative of the sorts of problems that concern me. It's important that people feel free to vote for de-sysoping as a temporary measure that is aiming at fixing an emergency situation, rather than an act of punishment that will last indefinately.

Instead, I would suggest using repeated 24hr de-sysoppings. Aside from anything else, they would graphically demonstrate to the arbcom that this issue needs investigation. Given that sysops do other things than abuse their sysop powers, and most of them are moderately sensible, you'd probably only need two or three at top. Martin 00:11, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

In all of the cases, the sysop could simply re-apply for adminship on Wikipedia:Requests for adminship, pledging not to violate policy in the future. If there is consensus to forgive the sysop, arbitration obviously needs not hear the case (I have just inserted a clause to make that clearer). Does that address your problem? I am quite opposed to requiring repeated 24 hour desysoppings because I fear that would bog down the quickpoll system needlessly. Let's use the wiki way for cases like this - try to build consensus.—Eloquence 00:33, Mar 19, 2004 (UTC)

The sysop could reapply on Requests..., but in the scenarios I've sketched out, they probably wouldn't get the level of support required, I suspect.

I agree with building consensus, but I'd prefer to build it from the status quo, rather than from the desysopped position.

My feeling is that quickpolls are actually very low overhead, really, so I can't see them getting that bogged down, and repeated 24hr de-sysoppings make it very easy for the community to come to a consensus (or the arbcom to come to a decision) that the sysop in question needs to be a normal user again.

Your clause is better, but still not quite good enough. Perhaps we could compromise on a maximum de-sysoping time (on the basis of a quickpoll) of one week? Martin 00:48, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Alright, what do you think about my kinder, gentler guidelines?—Eloquence 01:02, Mar 19, 2004 (UTC)

That's definately more like it. I'll tweak a little (for wording really). Martin 18:33, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What is a reverted edit issue

• 100 "non-reverted edits". What is a "non-reverted edit". A user can make a really bad edit and it gets whittled away by three or four subsequent edits. One assumes that this isn't a "reverted edit". I'm not sure that this is a significant problem, but it is problematic.
  • In my understanding, it would be a reverted edit. Do you think this can be clarified somehow?—Eloquence
    • I can't think of a way to clarify this at present. At least, not a practical way. It is a difficulty though, and suggestions are welcome. Ideas anyone? Tannin
    • Also, I feel that this would become a less significant matter if we rise the entry bar a little higher - e.g., 200 edits, or admin user to start the poll. Either or both of these would reduce the salience of this matter. Tannin
  • It seems to me that Quickpolls started by trolls would never even reach 8 yes votes, and could be safely ignored. Anthony DiPierro 23:47, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    • sock-puppets? --Ruhrjung 23:56, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
      • I don't see how sockpuppets will ever be able to reach 80% with over 10 votes without it being obvious. And obvious sockpuppets will of course not be counted. Anthony DiPierro 23:59, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Barrier to entry issue

• Only 3 months and 100 edits. This is too few. Seems to me the threshold should be quite a bit higher. Something in the order of 500 to 1000 edits. We want genuine Wikipedians participating in these polls, not trolls or blow-ins. I think this is particularly a problem as regards starting a Quickpoll. Imagine letting (Username omitted) loose with this! As presently formulated, the idea makes my troll-alarm go off.
  • Well, I do not agree. If we are being trolled we have other ways to deal with that. I think setting up a clique system here is not a good idea -- above all we want be open and friendly towards newbies. My suggestion would be to use a modest requirement at first and make it more strict if that should become necessary.

• Two possible fixes for this problem. (a) increase the minimum time/edit requirement. (b) Allow any qualified user to vote but require an admin to start the Quickpoll. Before people howl about that being undemocratic, remember that a non-admin user needs only to persuade one admin user to start a Quickpoll. If you can't find one single admin to share your view out of ~150 admins, then the view obviously won't have enough support to pass anyway. Also, this might help cut down on the "poll abuse" problem.
  • I'm afraid that some people will object to any system that requires admin participation on principle.—Eloquence

Implementational issues

I've just realised that I read this incorrectly to start with. I've voted for quickpolls, but wouldn't be able to vote in one myself (I thought the 3 months/100 edits only applied to those people starting polls, which I could live with happily enough). I don't know what I think of this rule. I'm still a month too young to vote in a quickpoll, but I'm about to be made a sysop. Hmmm. I'm not sure if I should propose a change just for me (I mean, I can wait a month, it's not going to kill me), in case it weakens the safeguards. fabiform | talk 23:13, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think we can fine-tune this limit as we go along. Right now it seems to me that 3 months is a good time to familiarize oneself with our policies.—Eloquence

Since this is all about percentages, and seeing all the detailed talk above, would it be a good idea to have a TOC tally? These would need to show the total number of votes, votes for and against (otherwise we wouldn't know if they were up to date or not), as well as the percentage. Eg, for the current poll (6: 2/4: 33%). Good idea, or very bad idea? fabiform | talk 23:29, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, a toctally would make sense (Optim's legacy lives on ..).—Eloquence

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16th March review

After a 24 hour hiatus in new input I thought it would be ok to have a review of the discussion. As I see it the votes are

1. 17 in favour
2. 3 potentially favour but with stated reservations, for two users these reservations may have been satisfactorily addressed. Probably not satisfactorily addressed for Jamesday?
3. 3 firmly against. Ec's opposition to bureaucracy is probably unresolvable. This will add a little more bureaucracy, but maybe there is appetite for it in this case. Kingturtle's opposition is, I think, based on the wish to trust admins more. Is this suggestion better than the status quo though for you Kingturtle. Wik is also opposed, but hasn't given reasons yet.

There are also several other issues raised that it wouldn't be fair to mark resolved. However the responses seem to indicate it would be worth giving this a go at least on a trial basis - no other suggestion in this area has come anywhere near this close to a consensus. Thus I propose the following route to take this forward:

1. Ask Jimbo his opinion. This is an important issue and I think it requires his blessing.
2. If and when the proposal receives his blessing, set off a one-month trial period. At the end of the month, take stock how successful quickpolls have been and then make a decision on their permanence.

I hope my review is a fair reflection of the actual debate; I tried to make it so. As a precaution, I'll hold off and let someone else do the actual contacting of Jimbo so that it doesn't look I am trying to ramrod this proposal through into policy.

Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 23:02, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think a one-month trial period is a good idea, in any event. I do have concerns about whether or not this can be fairly applied. But the fact that it is open to most Wikipedians (not just sysops) and requires 80% leads me to believe it would. Anthony DiPierro 23:17, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Just to clarify - unless I misunderstand, it's open to *everyone* who has been here longer than 3 months, and that requirement is merely insurance against sock puppet accounts. →Raul654 23:19, Mar 16, 2004 (UTC)

Well, 3 months with at least 100 (non-reverted) edits. And according to Eloquence that requirement is more than just insurance against sock-puppet accounts. But still, 3 months isn't all that long. Anthony DiPierro 23:26, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

abstain...

Fennec brings up a good point. There should not be any votes to abstain. Yeas and Nays only. Kingturtle 05:03, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

sock puppet detection

Erik: I take your point about sock puppets expressing opinions upon whether other sock puppets are sock puppets, but I think that particular circumstance is best solved via the medium of common sense and good judgement. I've edited it to be "community consensus" - it should be clear to all that random sock puppets are an annoyance, not part of our community. Martin 00:30, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Well, I fear that is a recipe for endless meta discussion and edit wars about what is or isn't a sock puppet, especially if we allow anyone to "flag" them as such. I would really prefer it if we would at least leave this particular decision to the maligned admin class, who are by definition known and trusted members of the community and exactly the kind of persons who should make such decisions.—Eloquence 00:38, Mar 19, 2004 (UTC)

Well, we've not had those problems on VfD (in that we haven't had any mis-deleted or mis-kept articles due to sock puppets, AFAICT), so I think we should take that risk. If it does become a problem, then we can change the policy quickly enough, right? Martin 00:50, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hm-hm. As the final decision rests with a sysop or developer I guess I can live with it for now. I hope it doesn't turn out to be a problem.—Eloquence 00:55, Mar 19, 2004 (UTC)

voting rule tweakage

The problem situations under previous quorum rules:

1. 9 people are in favour of a temp-ban, the tenth is against. Under old rules, tenth should abstain, because voting against would paradoxically cause the ban to go ahead.
2. 10 people are in favour of a temp-ban. Then, all ten change their mind. Under the old rules, the temp-ban stays in effect, because 15 people are required to reverse a decision.

So I fixed it. Very rules-lawyer of me, I know. Martin 00:36, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Kingturtle's conversation moved down here

(out of the poll itself) 

1. Eloquence has convinced me. I am changing my vote. Kingturtle 04:41, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

previous (obsolete) discussion

1. Polls for edit warriors? for admin oversights? for vandals? That makes no sense. These polls will further bog people down, waste time, and create witch-hunts. Previously banned people will not vote with their conscience, but with revenge in mind. People are going to start feeding off the drama of these polls. Some people will make a mockery of the system. Quickpolls should be used for questions like: should image3 be justified to the right or to the left? Leave discipline issues up to the 175 admins, the Mediation and Arbitration committees. If Arbitration refuses to hear it, that's the end. Get over it. Don't start these vigilante groups. Kingturtle 07:14, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

   • If this system will not be implemented, I can guarantee you that vigilantism will continue on Wikipedia. People will not go to arbitration, because they know that arbitration takes forever. Instead they will ask a developer or sysop to make a quick decision, in some cases the developer or sysop will comply, and they will keep it as quiet as possible to avoid public outcry. And as you can see on WP:RFA, there is often wide support for maintaining the outcome of such actions. This is not a vigilante group, this is a way to avoid vigilantism, by requiring general community support for any immediate action. As a proponent of due process, you should support this process, as it is quite clear that it fills a vacuum. "That's the end, get over it" is not an argument many people are likely to accept.—Eloquence 10:45, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)
     • I support due process - and the system I endorse is the Arbitration Committee. I realize the Arbitration Committee is yet to get its rear in gear, but that is the system I support - NOT the quickpoll system. The process needs to be centralized and consistant. Kingturtle 23:08, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
       • This system complements the AC, it does not replace it. A certain degree of decentralization is a good thing - it speeds things up and leads to shared responsibility (and blame).—Eloquence
         • I trust the judgment of admins. Why create this bureaucracy for something an admin can already do? An admin should be able to act immediately to stop the improper action of a user. The admin should not have to wait 24 hours to give someone a 24 hour ban. That gives the improper user 24 hours extra time to muck around in wikipedia. It is extremely rare for an admin to make a gaff in judgment. Trust the judgment of the admins. Kingturtle 23:57, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
           • I don't reckon a quickpoll will take 24 hours to come to quorom, more like one hour is my guess. Also we have tried allowing to act unilaterally - in the sense that the backing for their action has not been formally verified, only informally, but it hasn't been sustainable in these very sensitive cases. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 22:36, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

More questions

Since the one who is the subject of the poll cannot vote, to make it fair should the vote of the person proposing the poll count? Dori | Talk 04:06, Mar 19, 2004 (UTC)

Probably not.—Eloquence 04:10, Mar 19, 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. +sj+ 09:06, 2004 Mar 20 (UTC)

OK...so is this going to be reflected in the proposal? what do others think? Dori | Talk 04:32, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)

Another question, are quickpolls perpetually open? Dori | Talk 04:32, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)

Reading through the page above, one wonders how much the process intended to create concensus in reality changes the idea which most contributors voted for, and if they who cast their votes many days ago actually would do the same with the latest tweaks. ...Speaking for only myself, I must say that I would have been more than happy if the objective of de-sysopping was quite simply removed when it turned out this to have produced the most serious objections.--Ruhrjung 21:05, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Everyone is of course free to change their vote, even after the proposal goes live. As for the desysopping, that was one of my motivations for creating the proposal in the first place.—Eloquence 23:55, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)

placement

above the "Announcing a quickpoll" section needs to be a "Placement of a quickpoll" section. Where should these be placed? At the bottom of the Talk Page in question? Are there instances in which the Talk Page isn't appropriate? Should these ever take place on the Talk Pages of users? Should there be a single metapage devoted to the taking of quickpolls? Kingturtle 20:14, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I was thinking that all quickpolls should be put on Wikipedia:Quickpolls itself.—Eloquence

Going live

With 20 votes in support, and 4 (more or less) against, this is as close to consensus as it gets. I'm taking this live for a 30 days trial.—Eloquence 02:26, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)

Maybe then the Wikipedia:How to revert a page to an earlier version is to be updated accordingly?

I tried to. Can of course always be reversed. ;-)))

--Ruhrjung 13:49, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"3 revert guideline?" 3 reverts should get a protected page, right? -24.4.83.91 04:05, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That won't work if the same user keeps violating it on multiple pages.—Eloquence 04:11, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)

IE, now the community has alternatives. Protection, protection on specific version, reverts by multiple users, or quickpoll temp-banning. Or some combinatino thereof. Which is nice. Martin 12:56, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)