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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wik (talk | contribs) at 09:51, 29 March 2004. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

THERE'S AN EDIT WAR GOING ON HERE! Rickyrab 18:14, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

See also: Talk:Atlantium/Delete

Could we get some more detail here? -- Zoe

Done.

Vanity web-site, or serious political statement? A money-making scheme or the vanguard of the transition to non-territorial states? Something between these extemes, I would guess, but still nothing that deserves an ENCYCLOPEDIA article of its own. I've modified the completely uncritical advocacy article to bring a greater level of neutrality here just in case the article is retained. I do find it interesting that its citizens appear to be more interested in publicizing themselves (and their "Emperor") than they are in contributing to articles around which they assert their non-territorial sovereign state is based: global citizenship, freedom of movement, the right to assisted suicide, and decimal calendar reform, all go without articles, and the article on the right to abortion is apparently without Atlantian contributors. --- Someone else 09:40 Dec 28, 2002 (UTC)

As it appears - based on the most recent "revision" of this article - that the Wikipedia project has no desire to present factual information in anything approximating an informed and/or balanced manner (at least insofar as this particular subject is concerned), I wish to request the immediate removal of this and all other articles referencing Atlantium from Wikipedia.

Request denied. --Eloquence

Atlantium supporters keep on changing this article back to their POV: I have appended two different POV versions of this article, and look forward to the Wikipedia NPOV process integrating the text in these two versions into a single article in the NPOV style. The Anome 23:54 Dec 28, 2002 (UTC)

Yes a merge is needed. The current rewrite deleted valid information. --mav
It should be noted that the "critical" article contains several errors of fact relating to claims made on the official website. The liberal use of inverted commas by this author to imply that the claims they describe are in some way spurious is also entirely unneccesary, as the "non-critical" article already makes quite clear the officially unrecognised nature of the entity in question without resorting to derogation. George
If there are errors of fact then fix them, don't delete them. --mav

We should really put all these hobby projects under "micronationalism". Otherwise, every website that calls itself a "nation" will want to write themselves into Wikipedia -- and this seems to be happening in recent weeks, with Atlantium, Lavalon, Tallini et. al. all busily writing themselves in. This is not a good thing for a serious encyclopedia. Do they all share a mailing list, perhaps? The Anome 00:19 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

I don't know about that. Every Simpsons character and most Middle-earth characters have their own pages. Not to mention a great many other fringe things. These articles just need to be written from an NPOV (which, admittedly, isn't possible for non-famous entities or people, so those should stay out - Atlantium isn't in this category though)--mav

I think they are "allies". Vera Cruz

I do think if they actually have the thousand members that they claim, then they deserve some form of article. Vera Cruz

Errors of fact that don't require deletion are not, by definition, errors of fact - they are facts, ergo, they don't require deletion. Conversely, errors of fact that have already been corrected elsewhere are redundant and may be deleted - as I have repeatedly sought to do, only to have them repeatedly reappear.

At the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time: Atlantium has a fully independently verifiable existence stretching over more than two decades. The fact that you may not have *heard* of it until recently does not in any way change that reality. Indeed I suspect some of you were not even alive for much of it. Ample external evidence exists in support of this claim in the media and elsewhere, so if you are in any way serious about maintaining Wikipedia as a credible academic project I urge you get off your fat asses and go look for it. A list of contact phone numbers as long as your arm is also publicly available and you may use it to your heart's content. Still too bloody difficult to comprehend? Well any of you who wish to visit us in Sydney, the street address for Atlantium's main office is Unit 1, 126 Victoria Street, Potts Point, telephone +61 2 9356 2838, and we look forward to hearing from you in due course.

If none of that is good enough then I'm afraid Wikipedia and Atlantium clearly inhabit different universes (and it is not ours that is based on fantasy), and in that case I again urge you to delete all references to Atlantium from this "project". I have attempted to maintain an even-handed approach in the face of arrant stupidity on this subject, however my patience for this foolishness is at an end, and more importantly I have a lunch date in the real world that promises to be far more stimulating. George

--Is anybody doubting that Atlantium was founded in 1981? Vera Cruz

Moved this sentence to here: "Atlantium claims that at least one of its representatives is also an accredited diplomatic representative of a United Nations member state. " In what way is this pertinent? -- Someone else 01:20 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

This is Atlantium's way of trying to argue that they have informal UN recognition, and are thus more than a micronation. Vera Cruz

That's not what it says. I don't think they contend the UN recognizes them. -- Someone else 01:43 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

but if UN accredited diplomats recognize them, than informally the UN does. or so one might construe. Vera Cruz

....even though neither Florida nor New Jersey are sovereign states capable of recognizing diplomats."

If it is true that these states can't recognize foreign diplomats then the above is relevant and should be in the article. --mav

The point is not whether FL and NJ are capable of receiving diplomats or not (they aren't). The point is that diplomatic representatives may reside in any location desired by the country doing the appointing. As I've pointed out elsewhere, Australia maintains consulates in New York and California, yet neither state maintains separate "relations" with Australia. In this particular case, irrespective of whether Atlantian representatives are "recognised" or not, we have chosen to appoint an individual with a title of our creation to represent our interests within the said state subdivisions of the United States of America. The semantics of the terminology we choose to use is irrelevant. The capability of the states of NJ and FL to "recognise" the appointment is irrelevant. Either state the appointment as a fact (which it is), or remove it altogether.
Australia does not have a diplomatic representative TO New York, or TO California, because its relations are with the United States of America. Appointing a diplomatic representative to a non-diplomatic entity is bizarre, and worth mentioning. -- Someone else 03:22 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)
If you find the use of one preposition over another "bizarre" then you probably have way too much time on your hands to engage in semantic hair-splitting. The intent of our representative's title is more than abundantly clear to all but the most deliberately obtuse or blatantly moronic reader.
If you think that the use of "to" vs. "in" is not a matter over which real diplomats expend much effort, you need to attend more closely to them. -- Someone else 07:43 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)
I think it's abundantly clear. They're trying to obfuscate. -- [[User:Zoe|Zoe
I'm starting to bore myself with the need for constant repetition here. None of your attempts at generating a circular argument on this subject bear the slightest of relevance to the legal status of the appointment itself, nor with the capability of any legacy government within said territories to "recognise" the appointee. These "arguments" are therefore entirely specious. Our choice of titular nomenclature is precisely that - our choice; it is not a subject for debate, nor does it require explanation beyond that which has already been amply provided. If you are incapable of grasping both the topic at hand and the subtleties of the English language those are problems that *you* need to deal with.

202.138.198.36, marking non-minor changes as minor is inappropriate. -- Someone else 08:16 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

Open letter to the Atlantium dudes:

  1. check your spelling on your site: "and it's most historic symbol..."
  2. in your form you appear to define marriage as a relationship of more than 10 months, and single as "never married, not in a relationship". That leaves only "Divorced" for those no longer in a relationship. What about widowhood?

You appear to be a bunch of complete nuts. Lose the freakishly computer-game-Nazi eagle logo & I'm a member! -- Tarquin 14:36 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

Check your wallet first, Tarquin. The Altantium constitution says all citizens have a duty to pay taxes. -- Someone else 20:27 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)
I only skim-read their site. I thought they meant taxes to their country of residence. Besides, I might be a freeloader after Atlantium state benefits .... mwahahaha! -- Tarquin
If their taxes aren't TOO high, maybe you could bargain for an appointment as their Grand High Vice-Ambassador to K-Mart and Lake Erie... -- Someone else
Thanks for the insightful commentaries. Offending apostrophe deleted. The eagle stays. No taxes are presently levied, and there are no plans for their introduction. Titles are earned, not bought or sold. All official positions are voluntary, and appointments made on the basis of personal skill sets. Any other questions: [email protected]

How does Atlantium compare to a bunch of Wyoming wack jobs in camos with illegal automatic weapons and a web site holed up in a cabin somewhere refusing to pay their taxes to the Zionist Occupation Government? Just asking. Ortolan88

No provocations, please - we have already agreed that it's encyclopedia-worthy, so now it's about presenting the facts in the most balanced manner possible. --Eloquence
Orto, they do actually state in their FAQ that Atlatium citizens are not exempt in any way from taxes and other obligations in their state of residence & their other nationality. -- Tarquin

I made some wording changes to better reflect the fact that this state is not taken seriously by established nations—it is an understatement to say it is not recognized. Iran does not recognize Israel, and most countries do not recognize Taiwan, but the sense in which Atlantium is "not recognized" is a different matter entirely. --Delirium 05:57, Feb 5, 2004 (UTC)

I reinserted my wording changes. The article must say that it "claims to be" organized as a state, as no established states nor authorities on governance recognize this: it is only claimed by the state (or "state", if you prefer) itself. In addition, unless there is evidence that Australia no longer exercises territorial control over this appartment (for example, not levying taxes on it, or not subjecting the activities within it to its laws), then we can safely say that Australia in practice exercises jurisdiction over the self-declared sovereign territory. --Delirium 11:13, Feb 8, 2004 (UTC)
Your first change is illogical. Atlantium does not CLAIM to be organised in the manner of a state. It IS organised in that manner; that is a verifiable reality (. Indeed, it possesses NO OTHER organisational paradigm apart from the one commonly adopted by contemporary sovereign states. Whether it is "recognised" as a state by others bears no relevance whatsoever to this point of discussion. Likewise, the fact that its appointed diplomatic representatives are unaccredited means exactly that they do not fall under the established UN protocols governing consular and ambassadorial activity, and therefore do not commonly interact with persons who do. Your change in this context is entirely redundant. Re-stating something that has already been stated does not make it any more true, nor does it add any useful data to the article. --Gene Poole
I see no evidence that it is organized in the manner of a state. A state is organized in a manner that actually exerts authority over territory, and is characterized by such things as a police force, a military, a recognized government, fire-response service, tax collection, and so on. I see no evidence that Atlantium is organized in such a way. It is quite possible that there are other modes under which a state can be organized, but until evidence emerges from third-party neutral sources that Atlantium is organized in such a way, we can't report the claim as fact.
I would suggest it does indeed possess a different organization paradigm: that commonly adopted by fictitious nations.
As for representatives, that sentence does more correctly characterize their status. Saying merely that they are "unaccredited" gives the impression that they meet with their counterparts in an unofficial fashion, much like the US's unaccredited representatives to Taiwan do. However, this is not the case. --Delirium 03:48, Feb 9, 2004 (UTC)
If you're going to say that it only "claims" to be organized in the form of a sovereign state, you might as well go all the way and say that it claims to be a sovereign state. I'd recommend being more specific about exactly how it is organized if you want to re-add this information without qualification. And if you're going to do so, the first sentence wouldn't be the place to do it. Anthony DiPierro 04:05, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)
This is really becoming quite tiresome. Do any of you people ever bother to exercise anything approaching intellectual rigour, or do you actually derive some level of perverse pleasure from confusing unsubstantiated personal opinions for facts?

If anyone here would like to reference some documented real-world facts, might I suggest independently researching the following. This should go some way towards comprehensively refuting the erroneous statements and circular arguments to which the discussion has fallen victim:

1. Contact the the official press photographer of President Hippolito Mejia of the Dominican Republic and request photographic evidence of the recent meeting between the President and the Atlantian unaccredited diplomatic representative in Brazil, Dr Lamarine de Hollanda Jr, during which the President accepted a gift presented on behalf of the Atlantian government.

2. Contact the office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights to confirm the fully-accredited attendance of an Atlantian representative at said Commission's Working Group on Indigenous Peoples conducted in mid-2003 in Geneva.

3. Contact the Recife office of the Brazilian Central Bank's Mint Museum, to verify the acceptance by said institution of an example of Atlantian coinage into the Mint Museum's official collection by the Museum Director.

Gene Poole

Wik: From http://www.atlantium.org/emperor.html:

His Imperial Majesty was born George Francis Cruickshank on 13 Octavus 10485 (7 December 1966) in Sydney, Australia. He played a pivotal role in the development of Atlantium, and became Emperor by unanimous acclamation at the time of its Foundation.

Looks like he was elected "unanimously" - whether that was by himself, or himself and the mentioned social club of 3 teens, or more people, is in interesting question. Pakaran. 04:06, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, like the website run by Cruickshank himself would prove anything. There isn't even independent verification that anyone else besides him is involved in this at all. --Wik 04:08, Feb 9, 2004 (UTC)
From the biographies page...
A project to synthesize and reconfigure many of the concepts he and his two cousins had explored into a coherent world view eventually crystalized into the idea of a global sovereignty project - The Empire of Atlantium - of which he was acclaimed Sovereign Head of State on 3 Decimus 10500 (27 November 1981) at the age of 14.
So basically he and his cousins decided he should be emperor. As for whether anyone is involved... right now all we know about Atlantium is that someone is paying 13 bucks a year for a domain for it. Research needs to be done, I'd say. Pakaran. 04:11, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Ok, I'm in the process of finding someone to lock this page. Pakaran. 04:18, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have protected this page. I have not followed the edit war here, and do not know the merits of either side, nor do I care to. I'm simply locking it to prevent its flipping back and forth. I'll leave it to other to decide the content. Fuzheado


This is utterly pointless. Grow up, both of you. Secretlondon 19:10, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

Right. NPOV is utterly pointless. And, who are you referring to by "both of you?" Anthony DiPierro
Wow, you don't have to be a genius to realize whom he is referring to. ugen64 22:33, Mar 5, 2004 (UTC)

User:Viajero protected the wrong version. 62.169.220.232 19:39, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

This page has been protected again. I reverted to the version unprotected by Tannin several days ago. -- Viajero 19:16, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

That's perfect. Sorry about the previous uninformed comment. thanks for fighting wicked admins. 62.169.220.232 19:39, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

User:Viajero protected the wrong version. --Wik 19:29, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

You're a comedian, aren't you? RickK 19:35, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Wik, please stop trolling! do you want a ban? 62.169.220.232 19:39, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I wonder who this IP belongs to? Alexandros perhaps? Secretlondon 19:41, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

No, it resolves to Greece. -- Viajero 19:43, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)


Poll

What phrasing is better?

Pretends

The Empire of Atlantium is a social and political advocacy group based in Sydney, Australia, that pretends to be a sovereign state. It claims to have been established in 1981, by a group of three teenagers, and to have now approximately 1,000 members, in over 60 countries. George Francis Cruickshank plays the role of head of state as "Emperor George II".
  1. "claim" implies a measure of substance or legitimacy. -- Viajero 16:11, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    • Atlantium has both "substance" (ie has verifiably produced physical products and been involved in events in the "real world"), and a "degree of legitimacy" (ie verifiable interactions with "legitimate" organizations, states and international Non-Government Organizations and their representatives). Gene Poole
  2. agree with Viajero. Maximus Rex, 08:15, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  3. It's not sovereign. It's nowhere near sovereign. ugen64 21:11, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)

Claims

The Empire of Atlantium is a social and political advocacy group based in Sydney, Australia, that claims to be a sovereign state. It claims to have been established in 1981, by a group of three teenagers, and to have now approximately 1,000 members, in over 60 countries. George Francis Cruickshank acts as head of state with the title "Emperor George II".
  1. Anthony DiPierro
  2. moink
  3. Gene Poole - no evidence has been advanced to justify use of the "pretends" version promoted by the troll who has been regularly vandalising this article.
  4. Delirium - but should also mention the word micronation with a link, for an explanation of the whole phenemenon
  5. Meelar Agree with Delirium
  6. Ryan_Cable
    • -- The unvandalised article already clearly states the "micronation" connection. Gene Poole
  7. IMSoP - as far as I can see, it's undeniable that they claim this status, and saying so neither validifies nor refutes this claim.
  8. PenguiN42 - I fail to see how "claim" implies anything other than the fact that they made a claim, which they did. However, "pretend" is hugely POV. Pretend explicitly means "To give a false appearance of/To claim or allege insincerely or falsely/To represent fictitiously in play; make believe." Saying "pretend" is tantamount to giving the point of view that their claim is illegitimate. Saying "claimed" is simply relaying the facts with a NPOV.
  9. Angela. This one sounds more NPOV without being untrue.

Pretends or Claims

Both are better.

  1. Optim

Purports, states that it is, or claims

  1. Pakaran. I'd be ok with any of these, and it seems more neutral.
  2. Anthony DiPierro
  3. NerdOfTheNorth. Personally, I prefer "states that it is", it seems the most NPOV of them all.
  4. PenguiN42 - these are all neutral enough imho, as opposed to "pretends."

Note: I only recognize votes on subjective matters. Here, however, the facts are plain: Atlantium is not a state. (A state is a political entity possessing sovereignty, i.e. not being subject to any higher political authority. Gene Poole's living room is of course subject to the authority of Australia.) So any such claim is flat-out wrong. And to make a false claim = to pretend. So my version is simply more precise and not POV at all. --Wik 09:51, Mar 29, 2004 (UTC)

In addition to "voting" above, I'll just make a few further suggestions, feel free to respond to each in turn:

  • the second sentence could perhaps become "It was established in 1981 by a group of three teenagers, and now claims approximately 1,000 members, in over 60 countries." since we have no reason to deny when it was set up - and as far as I know, there is no legally challengable definition of "set up", so it's down to the memory of the 3 original "citizens".
  • "though in practice this territory is under the jurisdiction of Australia." could become "though in practice this territory remains under Australian jurisdiction." - a subtle change, but I think it subtracts less from the Atlantian claim.
  • "Atlantium is considered by some people to be a micronation. Atlantium's web-site currently refers to itself using several different formulations, including the assertions that it is a "self-declared State" and an "aspirant microstate"." could become "Atlantium is considered by some people to be a micronation, while its own web-site currently uses several different formulations, including the assertions that it is a "self-declared State" and an "aspirant microstate"." - which apart from anything else is better stylistically.
  • otherwise, I think the current version is fairly decent. Particularly, I think that "acts as head of state" is reasonable enough, given that every country is free to define its own head of state. Perhaps it would benefit from linking to "head of state"?

IMSoP 20:26, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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