Talk:Dutch language
It would be nice to have the phonemes in IPA (using Unicode entities); see Unicode_and_HTML
-- Kwaku
Wouldn't this page be more appropriate at Dutch language (now a redirect)? "Netherlandic" is maybe more correct, but certainly not the most common. "Netherlandic language" gets about 500 hits at Google, of which 20% comes from Wikipedia; "Dutch language" gets a lot more. Also ethnologue is using Dutch as the name for the language. Any objections against moving this to Dutch language? Jeronimo 07:48 Aug 6, 2002 (PDT)
- I'd suggest leaving it where it is, I like the correct term. With Wikipedia's wonderful redirections the conflict between using the most common or the correct name isn't that big an issue. Besides, Ethnologue even mentions that "Dutch" is not seen by everybody as the proper term, even though I'm not overly impressed with the Dutch entry on that site anyway. Also think of the potential Dutch/Deutsch confusion. -Scipius
I know, but I've been told several times that giving an article its most commonly used name is Really Important. The United States of America is the formal name, but the article is now at United States, and Games of the I Olympiad is now at 1896 Summer Olympics. It appears to be "policy".... Jeronimo 14:14 Aug 6, 2002 (PDT)
- I see. Well, in the case of the Olympics a point could be made that people wouldn't immediately recognise "Olympiad" or something and I'll leave the political discussion on the proper US name to the USians ;) In this case confusion with Dutch isn't an issue ("Dutch" is mentioned at the start of and used throughout the article) and most references come from [[<xxx> language|Dutch]] anyway, so people aren't seeing and using the whole language name at any rate until they arrive here. Might as well point out the proper name right in the title...
- I'm more for proper names over common names (an encyclopedia should be as accurate as possible, even at the expense of some perceived extra usability IMHO), and I would think that redirections would solve most problems. Let's agree that for languages the most proper name be used as "policy"? ;) -Scipius
No, I really do think we should put pages at a place where people expect them. Naming the pages of persons with their full firstnames listed would be a bad thing. Making exceptions for languages would make things inconsistent. Jeronimo
- I believe we put this page here because "Netherlandic" is the only single term in English that refers to both Dutch and Flemish. ---rmhermen
As discussed in Talk:Belgium, Flemish isn't a "real language", like "American" isn't a "real language". The Belgians have their own pronounciation and some of their own words, but it isn't a different language.Jeronimo
- However we have a word for it in English, unlike the compound, American English. Flemish is a word used to describe the language of Belgian and serves to confuse the issue if we call the article "Dutch", not the acceptable and inclusive (in English) "Netherlandic". I call it Dutch myself but all my relatives came from north of the border. --rmhermen
- To confuse the matter further, I have seen linguists call the language (i.o.w. that which is spoken in The Netherlands AND Belgium) Flemish, although I cannot remember why they did that.--user:Branko
I'm Dutch. I was born and raised here in the Netherlands, and I've lived in the UK long enough to be fluent in English. The language is called "Nederlands" in Dutch, and "Dutch" in English. Calling it the "Netherlandic language" is like calling what is spoken in the US "United Statian". Maybe not insulting, but certainly wrong and possibly disrespectful. The main entry should definitely be under "Dutch Language", and not here. Unless someone has a really good argument otherwise, I'll move it in a few days time. NTF
- I'm Dutch. I was born and raised here in the Netherlands, and I realise that when Anglophones speak of the "Dutch language", they most often mean "the language spoken in the Netherlands", in accordance with "Dutch" describing something of the Netherlands. Similarly, then often use "Flemish" when talking of Belgium. As stated above, "Netherlandic" is the only term that describes both and makes it clear that "Dutch" and "Flemish", despite their differences, are in fact the same language. There's no need to move this page from what is a perfectly valid linguistic term. Scipius 17:44 Sep 21, 2002 (UTC)
Well, let me quote from the web pages of the Flanders Authority at http://www.flanders.be/public/flanders/explore/language/index.asp. They say "The official language of Flanders is Dutch, although the region is rich in Flemish dialects. Over 20 million people in Europe speak Dutch as their native tongue...." In other words: the language is called Dutch, and Flemish is a group of dialects of the Dutch language. I'd say this is a fairly authoritative source, coming from the governmental of Flanders. The term "Dutch language" includes Flemish, just like it includes all the other Dutch dialects. I therefore see no reason to use the weird term "Netherlandic". NTF 13:00 Sep 22, 2002 (UTC)
- The Flemish government is an authority on many things, but not necessarily on the English language or linguistics in general. "Netherlandic" is an accurate and precise linguistic term, "Dutch", regrettably, is not (even disregarding its etymology). You may feel it's weird, but it isn't really so. As discussed above, this is hardly an issue. "Dutch" is most certainly more frequently used, even in Wikipedia and within the article itself, but it must be noted that "Netherlandic" is a more precise name and why not indicate that right in the title? Kindly leave the article where it is. Scipius 14:37 Sep 22, 2002 (UTC)
- If the article is going to stay here, should sentences such as "...Dutch has a rather complicated word order" be changed to "...Netherlandic has a rather complicated word order"? It is rather confusing at the moment. --Camembert
- No, I don't think so. "Dutch" certainly is more common and the article now makes the distinction clear. The use of "Netherlandic" in the title serves primarily to point out that there is a more precise term, even if it isn't one that is commonly used. Scipius 14:49 Sep 22, 2002 (UTC)