Talk:Miyamoto Musashi

Differences between the Japanese and English pages

The statement "In 1634 he settled in Ogura with his stepson Iori." should probably read "... Kokura ... ." Kokura is a different reading of the same kanji as Ogura and was the castle town of the daimyo Ogasawara (next sentence in the article). Ogura is a place name in Kyoto.

The Japanese page is very different from the English, and calls into question some of the statements in the English, including whether Munisai was Musashi's father, and whether Musashi defeated the Yoshioka school, stating that factual information is not known (to the author of the Japanese page?). It omits many of the details that are in the English, making no mention of Musashi's mother or stepmother, and adding that Musashi was the subject of kabuki, joruri and kodan fiction.

Ronin or Samurai

Something I'm not quite sure about, so I'm asking it here: Is Musashi properly called a ronin, or a samurai?

Based on my incomplete knowledge of his time, I would venture to call him a samurai, as that term implies a warrior or soldier who observes bushido. A ronin, although applied to masterless samurai, was considered someone ranked between a mercenary & a brigand. Further, IIRC, the strict imposition of social classes had not quite begun in Musashi's lifetime, so a samurai without a master was not the contradiction it became much later, say at the time of Chushingura, also known as the 49 Ronin. (I'm a fan of the movie.)

I'm avoiding the problem by calling Musashi a "swordsman", but that also does not adequately reflect what he represents in Japanese culture: an individual who found the Way thru single-minded, if not obsessive, study of the use of the sword. -- llywrch 17:16 Jan 6, 2003 (UTC)

Not a Samurai, "Master of strategy"

Musashi would be technically seen as a ronin, because he had no real masters, or sensei's who taught him his craft/skill/tactics.. but the idea with Miyamoto Musashi is that with him being such a self-taught person, his style was supposed to be the best and most effective in all history. I doubt he is a Samurai, because he says that he dislikes being bound to a certain style because he says that it puts limits on your skills, such as strategy and skill.

Musashi calls himself a Strategist ; A type of warrior which uses both technical skill and Tactical manouvers in battle to win. the idea that Musashi was helped by his students is somewhat far fetched. His schools were founded later on in his life, and in his other books, he claims that in later life, he gathered a liking for finer points in life, so i doubt he's going to be getting his students to help, because they weren't fully fledged in his art, and obviously, if he was getting his ass kicked (which is very unlikely, neigh impossible) i doubt his students would be any use.

Seperating Fact from Fiction

"These are obviously stories and its not too difficult to seperate fact from fiction considering that the medical term excema was not known in the 1600's and that baths were not readily avalable to the masses. More like a wash in a stream was be more available in these times."

I have removed this section, because it is quite frankly ridiculous. People more qualified than I am are welcome to reinstate its arguments, but they should consider doing so in a semi-literate fashion, preferably supporting their arguments with something.

Particular criticisms:

1. Medical terms are invented to describe symptoms, not discovered. Is whoever wrote that claiming that 16th century Japanese people didn't notice the symptoms of eczema, or were unable to describe them?! Besides, the question of whether the term eczema was "known" (whatever that's meant to mean) is nonsensical - it's an English word for heaven's sake, what possible relevance does it have to Japanese history?

2. Baths not readily available to the masses in C16th? Strange, then, that the Japanese love of bathing, and the frequency with which they did it, was one of the things that the first Europeans to visit Japan were most amazed by. Mm, could that have been in the 16th century by any chance? Why, I do believe it was!

Reference in fiction

Steve Perry's Matador sequence refers to Musashi, but my copies are in storage: maybe someone with more immediate access could check? I'm sure I recall a martial art named the Musashi Flex. --Phil | Talk 12:27, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

Is it really necessary to cite all these fleeting references in random Anime shows? It makes the article cluttered.

There's a discussion on this topic at Wikipedia talk:Japan-related topics notice board#Historical people in popular culture. Fg2 11:02, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Factual Reference

I own a book titled The Lone Samurai, which acts as a biography of Musashi. The ISBN of it is 4-7700-2942-X. It was printed in 2004, the publishing company is Kodansha International, and it was distributed in the US by Kodansha America. It is written by William Scott Wilson, and details Musashi's life excellently. It even lists it's sources in a bibliography at the end of the book. NeoChrono Ryu 03:37, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

I tagged the article for cleanup and factual verification. If we could decide on a way to organize the article, that would help. I will do my best to help with this, as well as the factual information (from The Lone Samurai), but it is rather late at night right now, so I will start that another time. NeoChrono Ryu 04:23, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

The Life and Times of Miyamoto Musahi

I think there should be a little more information on his life and death, like who killed him, his parents, etc. It would be helpful. The Gwai Lo 04:04, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your encouragement & Some dismissals.

Hello there, nice to see you're saying my article is of good enough quality to be a featured article, really makes me feel appreciative of the work i've contributed towards the article. I disagree that it is rambling, as most of the works relating to Musashi are ones closely relating to his style, and are difficult to understand out of the concept of Musashi's life and times, mainly because his techniques and Knowledge were based so closely on him, widely renowned as a "Loner" character.

Most of the information requires "previous knowledge" of other topics which most people would not be privvy to understanding, be it outside the scope of the article. I know it may be long, but i assure you that although perhaps i should trim the articles on techniques, the information is accurate and has taken me a long long time to ensure that it is easy to understand, mainly because the Go Rin No sho, and Dokkodo are hard books to comprehend, even after multiple times of reading them.

Once all information on the remaining books has been added, then i will go over and add in links to the pages of the book which i used.

Lastly, to the rambling and somewhat lacking gentleman above me. We can use modern expressions to illuminate past conditions because we know now what they are. Of course it would not have been called eczema in the past, but we refer to it as that now.

Secondly, there were no facts posted as to Musashi's uncleanliness. The idea of stream washing is not completely separated from realitym, but i do believe that it is incorrect as there were frequently bath houses inside major houses, under which he served at least two to my recollection.

The idea that bathing was letting musashi's guard down was untrue, as evey single duel which Musashi was a combatant in, he was either the catalyst starting the duel, or was engaged in a respectful duel.

Please take

Thanks for your support, again. (Spum 12:04, 28 October 2005 (UTC))

Birth/Upbringing discrepency

In the second paragraph of the section on Birth, it says Musashi was raised by his uncle from the age of seven, when his father died. However, the first paragraph of the section on Upbringing says it was his mother who died when he was seven, and that his father's role is unknown. I'm not familiar with Musashi's history (I was reading this article to find out), so can't make the call as to which is correct. Thanks -- Zelphar 08:08, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Quotes

I altered a quote. If it is a direct quotation, it should be reverted, and a source should be provided (for all quotations) so that people will not edit it. Fg2 10:55, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Grammar

Just a note, but one thing this page definitely needs to have fixed is its grammar and sentence structure. Sentences like "The latter idea that Musashi would have hated Shinto because of "alien" practices could be seen as completely misconstrued because Shintoism would not be something alien to him; The odds being that Musashi would have been in much contact with Shintoists, those being the majority of Japan at that time, and as such, would also be reflective upon the amount of Shintoists which he duelled with or battled against." and "Kihei used a sword as the duel with Musashi was unexpected." make so little sense or are so vague that it seems to me they'd leave any potential readers more confused than they started out.

Section on the fight with Arima Kihei

I think that the entire section in this article concerning the fight with Arima Kihei should be eliminated and melded with the Arima Kihei article. NeoChrono Ryu 06:04, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Refrences

I don't think that some of the books listed as refrences (The Lone Samurai) should be there since so much of the information in the article is conflicting with the information in the book(s). Perhaps a good solution is to refrence informtion by individual sections, and even paragraphs as opposed to applying a seal of aproval to the entire article. Much of the information in the article is unclear or incorrect, so we should not refrence it as being true.NeoChrono Ryu 06:04, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

He was not called BENNOSUKE, it was BENOSUKE

I'm sorry, but someone's obviously got this wrong, i've never seen a double B in any Japanese, or Chinese name.. ever. It's just the same as SAMANOSUKE being SAMMANOSUKE, no, no, no.

Spum 17:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC) Hi Spum,

I doubled the "n." A double "n" is common in person and place names. It arises when one character ends in an "n" sound and the next begins with "n" (or certain other sounds). Conversely, when the kanji before the "no" does not end in "n" the double "n" is wrong. That's the difference between these names and the reason why "ben-no-suke" should have a double "n" but "sa-ma-no-suke" should not.

As one example, see the place name Sannomiya Station. This is very similar in that the first kanji is "san"; the middle is the kana "no"; the ending ("miya") does not affect the doubling of the "n." The personal name "Shinnosuke" is a very close analogy. Likewise, kanji with readings like "san," "man," "han," "kan," "kin," "sen," "ban," "bin," "bun," "mon," "ran," "rin," and "ron" would get a double "n" if the middle character is "no."

However, I did not have a source for the writing of this name. The Japanese Wikipedia had the kanji, but did not indicate pronunciation. The first kanji is "ben," not "be." The "no" is omitted from the Japanese, and the omission is quite common. The shortening of "ben" to "be" would be very uncommon. Of course, I can't say it's impossible. If you've got a good source in English, it would be a great addition to the article!

Best regards,

Fg2 21:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi again,

I tried typing Shinnosuke into the search box, and came up with a few examples. Also, here is the sentence from the Japanese Wikipedia: 幼名は「辨助」(弁助)と伝えられる。 The kanji 辨 (in parentheses, the modern simplification 弁) is "ben." The simplified kanji is the same as in bento.

You can also go to this site, which is in Kumamoto. It's tricky to get there. You have to log in (I assume it sets a cookie), accept the terms, then go back and click on this again. It gives his childhood name as べんのすけ; the hiragana are be-n-no-su-ke.

Hope that helps.

Fg2 07:46, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Cause and date of Death, also, his name.

It is said in the introduction to Wilson's translation of the "Book of Five Rings" that Musashi died on May 19, due to thoracic cancer. Since Wilson's translation is frequently cited in this article, I believe it would be appropriate to change the date and include cause of death. Also, it is obvious from the Wilson translation that Musashi preferred the family name Shinmen, not Miyamoto, so I believe this should also be addressed. - Skywalkert65b 02:58, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

No macron for Gorin no sho

I edited the article and removed the macron from the title of Musashi's most famous book. A user asked me for additional information so I wrote this.

The word "sho" is the last kanji 書　meaning "writing" or "book." Its pronunciation has a short vowel, not a long one.

You can see an entry for 書 in any Japanese kanji dictionary, including Wiktionary. You can copy and paste the kanji right from this window into Wiktionary's search box (not just for this kanji but for any kanji, although of course Wiktionary doesn't have them all) but this link should take you directly to the article. Look at the Japanese section and you'll see しょ (two hiragana symbols), not しょう (three hiragana), as well as sho not shō. For contrast, look at another kanji. This one has the pronunciation しょう (three hiragana) or shō. You can see the difference.

Fg2 20:53, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Lead Paragraph

I agree with the remarks in the peer review about the lead paragraph, and it was so clear to me what was needed that I moved the naming issue to the section on his training in swordsmanship and changed the first paragraph to this:

Miyamoto Musashi (宮本 武蔵 Miyamoto Musashi, c.1584 - May 19, 1645), prior to adulthood known as Miyamoto Benosuke, was a famous Japanese swordsman, who is claimed to have been one of the most skilled swordsmen in the history of Japan. Musashi, as he is often simply known, became legendary by triumphing in numerous duels, even from a very young age. He invented and developed the Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu style of swordsmanship and he wrote The Book of Five Rings, an enigmatic book of strategy, tactics, and philosophy that is much studied by businesspeople and others even today.

I think this gives the reader solid reasons for his fame and I trust it is a smooth invitation to read further. Hu 10:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)