Talk:John Lennon

Does anyone else think that this should be FP article today? If an admin would do so I think it is much more appropriate than the "gully".

Controversy

Watching Channel 4 news today they made mention of John Lennon's association with "drug use and wife beating" - the drug use is obvious but I hadn't heard the wife-beating comments before, I came to the article hoping for some information but didn't find any. I know that Lennon was great but in the name of Wikipedia's balanced approach would a 'controversies' section be warranted to discuss such issues? (it's not like the man never caused contorversy with his political and religious statements). MagicBez 21:06, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Wife beating is too strong a term. He slapped Cynthia a few times and he had anger problems, but beating is WAY too far.

Fair enough - I still think that a controversy section would be worthwhile - if only to set records straight on such issues. MagicBez 03:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Apparently he slapped her once, in their v.early years for dancing with another man. Cynthia herself admits that. I think the whold wife beating thing gets blown out of proportion, and though it in no way justifies hitting anyone, he had well documented problems with rejection (Mother was distant and died before they could really get to know each other, Father left him as a child, Uncle George who he was v.close to died) so it is perhaps more understandable that he would get wound up abpout something like this. And Cynthia herself was never whiter than white. I very much get the impression that John wasn't the only one having affairs. That famous this about sending Cynthia on hoilday while he shaked up with Yoko - what isn't so famous is that Cyn had been to the same holiday resort a few times before, and went again after the divorce. Shortly after her divorce from John she married the manager of this place. That's a little suspect if you ask me. On an altogether more tenuous link (though scurrilous and fun) Paul wrote "Hey Jude" about Julian after the divorce, and went around to Cyn's and sang it to her, coz they were still friends. I'm not saying for sure, but it is interesting. Who knows eh?--Crestville 19:42, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

ASSASSINATION

John Lennon was NOT assassinated he was murdered. Please look up a defination before changing it back. I know assassination sounds cooler and brings more meaning to his death but he was killed in cold blood by a nut case.

John Lennon

John Was a leader not a follower and made a huge difference in the lifes of many people Someone (203.121.0.16) has changed "Ono" to "Chong Wah" for reasons best known to them.

There's a contradiction in the first paragraph. He didn't change his middle name, he added another one. Why did he retain "Winston" (to become John Winston Ono Lennon) if he didn't like it? --193.128.29.190 14:33, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think he changed his name from John Winston Lennon to John Ono Lennon, so it will need fixing. User:ChicXulub 4:34, 1 APR 2004 (GMT)

It was my understanding that he legally dropped the Winston but that many media people insisted on referring to him as John Winston Ono Lennon. I heard this even from personal friends of John's who should know better. --Bluejay Young 08:14, Jun 6, 2004 (UTC) Edit: I said Jimmy Fink of Westwood One used this name. He didn't.

In any case, the claim that British law doesn't allow you to change your middle name is just plain wrong, so I'll remove that bit. Bonalaw 12:36, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It wasn't particularly that he disliked the name Winstone, it was a compromise, so that Yoko would feel comfortable taking Lennon as her last name. And yer right, he wasn't allowed to drop thre Winston anyway, so it was John Winston Ono Lennon. There you go.--Crestville 22:38, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That was VERY noble and thoughtful of him The Wookieepedian 19:13, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Ronald Reagan was president-elect for five weeks before Lennon's death. Can anyone add Lennon's opinion on that? Since he began writing "Come Together" as a campaign song for Timothy Leary running against Reagan for governor, it'd be valuable to include his opinion of this seminal event of the 80s. Gebron 15:20, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

tannoy

The article says "Reportedly, the song playing on the hospital tannoy at the moment of Lennon's death was a Beatles hit, "All My Loving"." Except from context, I would have no clue as to what "tannoy" meant. It's not in my dictionary, either. Presumably it means "music system": is it a British word? We ought to change it to something comprehensible: I'm certain no one at Roosevelt Hospital believes they have a "tannoy". -- Nunh-huh 17:36, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Tannoy is a very common British word, are you suggesting we should stick to words that are recognised in your locality? Is there any internationally agreed English vocabulary? pomegranate 19:52, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, you should stick to words everyone can understand, instead of your limey backwoods sayings.

Yeah, we also have this stupid habit of spelling backwards properly and not like a total fucking retard. Maybe you should stop dragging yer knuckles and think about that one you stuck up Yank tosser. I think the American translation is intercom or maybe just hospital radio system would suffice, but then maybe English people would not understand that. Lennon was one of ours after all, so that could be tricky. This isn't a one way street, "backwoods" limeys use this site too, so maybe the power mad coward above who "forgot" to sign his post should keep that in his tiny little mind (no offence to the nice Americans)--Crestville 14:54, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Backwoods" is not a misspelling of "backwards". "Backwoods" is slang for a place totally remote from civilization (i.e. in the back of the woods), with the implication that those who live in the backwoods are uncivilized and uneducated. -- anonymous Yank

I don't dislike Americans, nor do I wish to join in a race war (on John Lennon's talk page, of all places) but looking at the education standards and cultural backgrounds of our respective nations, is it not a touch ironic for an American to call an Englishman uneducated or uncivilised? America is somewhat notorious throughout Europe for having remote, uncivilised areas and for a reletively poor education system coupled with high levels of self-esteem. Not to nit-pick--Crestville 16:28, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I apologise for not linking tannoy when I used it in the article. I am not British by any stretch of the imagination (I am an expat Canadian), but I use some British conventions and often British spelling by choice. I do think it's appropriate in view of Lennon's cultural heritage. Also it should possibly be interpretable by context. I have put tannoy back in and, this time, linked it. --Bluejay Young 21:07, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

Tannoy, in this case, is not interpretable by context. I interpret it as a music system or record player based on the context, not a public address system as tannoy defines it. Nunh-huh, this thread's parent, seems to share the same sentiment. The article needs to be changed as a more common English phrase is needed to describe the hospital's tannoy. - Defunkt (talk) 08:59, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I didn't want to say "muzak", but that's what it was, even if not Muzak as such. I meant the PA system that plays background music in the halls and wards. Let's just say public-address system.

My source for the report that "All My Loving" was playing as John died was a television reporter who was in the next cubicle in the ER with a broken leg from a motorcycle accident. He recognized Yoko running into the ER following someone on a stretcher who he assumed had to be John, and a short time later heard "All My Loving" start up, followed by a scream from Yoko as doctors told her John had died. He called in the report to New York's WCBS-2. This was covered in Rolling Stone and I believe in a subsequent issue of TV Guide. I wish I could think of the guy's name. All my Lennon scrapbooks are still packed in some damn box or other after a cross-country move. --Bluejay Young 04:41, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)

Tannoy is a brand name like Hoover is to a vacuum Cleaner so the term Lound Speaker system or P.A. system should be used.

"The young Lennon was unfortunate enough to witness this event"

...is incorrect, as far as I know - if the text really means that John SAW his mother die, as I think it means. According to the Paul McCartney biography written by Barry Miles, John was waiting for her mother in her mother's house at the time.

Yeah, she's just left his Aunt Mimis house and I think Johnwas either at his aunts house or his mothers house. Either way, he definately didn't see it. His mate was there though.--Crestville 22:31, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

John was staying with his mother and his mother's boyfriend when she was killed. She was coming home from visiting his Aunt Mimi.

"making it a truly dark day in Music History"

I think it became a dark day in music history when Lennon died. The fact that Dimebag got killed on the same day makes it something more than dark, but I'm not sure what. Just saying the sentence makes me think the author felt the day wasn't dark until Dimebag's death. - Defunkt (talk) 02:26, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Darker?--Crestville 00:59, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Bisexual allegations

This paragraph was edited out today:

It was during his time in New York that Lennon purportedly engaged in sexual relationships with men, according to biographers Albert Goldman (The Lives of John Lennon) and Geoffrey Giuliano (Lennon in New York). Lennon's estate, however, has denied charges that he was bisexual. It should be noted that both Goldman and Giuliano were heavily criticized for their work, and their evidence was highly dubious.

I think that it's well balanced, but considering how few people believe this, maybe we should just edit it out? What do you guys think? I'll vote to keep this para. Gaurav 09:10, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Keep. - user:defunkt 12:53, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it's an opinion attributed to those who believe it. It should stay. Tuf-Kat 22:22, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

We don't need to put in every allegation that comes down the pipe if it's not relevant to his life story. I'd almost rather put in a bit about all the 9s in John's life (he was born and died on the 9th, Roosevelt Hospital's on 9th St., etc.) It goes. --Bluejay Young 04:41, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)

According to May Pang... "John and I had heart to heart talks about many different subjects but let me make it clear that he loved women foremost. John loved to flirt with people whether they were women or men. HIs flirting with men has been mistaken for being homosexual or bi-sexual. He enjoyed the excitement of gossip by people and played up to it. Whether or not John had this so called "affair" with Brian, he would rather let you think that he had done so than correct the situation. John had many gay friends and was not uptight about it.

I've been in a situation when John thought that a guy was about to REALLY hit on him, he became very nervous and ran in the other direction.

I have had no doubts about John's sexuality and his preference for the female population."

source... http://www.beatlesagain.com/breflib/johngay.html

Lennon also denied the Epstein rumor in his Playboy interview.

cleanup done

I've removed the cleanup tag from this article. I've done some work to improve it, especially in the 1970s period. I've also seen and done work on the other three individual Beatles articles, and this one is in as good a shape as the others are ... or as most Wikipedia articles are ... so I don't think the cleanup tag is now necessary. --jls

Removal of sundry details

I understand why this was done, but I'd like people to know that my source for the details I reported on the Lennon shooting came straight off of WABC reports for that night, which I have on tape. I said nothing which could not be found on one of those tapes or in the subsequent Rolling Stone special edition. So these are not unconfirmed speculations, and I figure they were just cleaned up because they made the article too long. --Bluejay Young 04:41, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)

Discography

Should the discography be moved to a page of its own like it has been done for Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr? --DaveGorman 12:01, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Recent edits

The material I pulled out of the Role in the Beatles section related to White Album, Let It Be, and Abbey Road was (poorly written) general Beatles history that is already covered in the Beatles article, the History of Beatles article, and possibly elsewhere. This section in this article only needs to cover specific aspects of this period that relate to Lennon, and the Get Back/Let It Be mess (for example) mostly didn't have anything to do with Lennon in particular, but rather with total group dysfunction. It was most definitely not "blanking", as one user suspected!

One of the problems with the Beatles articles in general is that the same facts are covered in multiple places, with the inevitable likelihood that articles contradict or are inconsistent with each other, embarrassing for any encyclopedia. So reducing duplication is always a good idea. I did something similar months ago with the Paul McCartney and Wings articles, moving material across and making sure that they didn't significantly overlap. -- jls 13 May 2005

Has anyone...

...tried playing "How Do You Sleep" backwards? A message there is supposed to say "Hey, poor Lindy, so mean, gets him nowhere" Source: [www.reversespeech.com], find the music reversals section to see it CoolKatt number 9999 06:40, 17 August 2005

Not a bloody murder mystery

As Ono went in, Lennon got out of the car, and saw Chapman waiting in the shadows. Recognizing him from many hours earlier, Lennon was instantly aware that something was not quite right. He gave Chapman a long, hard stare, but went on through the entrance to the Datoka.

... Okay, guys. Wow. Don't think we need this. --Thorns Among Our Leaves 21:08, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Info about Lennon and the IRA - definitely not "NPOV"

Wow, don't know why, but the information previously buried in the "Trivia" section, claiming that Lennon may have supported the IRA, is very unbalanced. (I checked here after seeing another Wikipedia page claiming that Lennon had - full stop, had, not "was claimed to have" - given money to a Marxist IRA organization.) The previous entry was linked to the first BBC story with David Shayler's claim ... but did not mention any of the other pertinent details (aka, Shayler's in deep doo-doo for breaching the Official Secrets Act, and not necessarily trustworthy ... Lennon's biographer has been fighting for FBI files for over twenty years ... The "proof" may have been in MI5 files, after being passed from the FBI ... the same FBI which erroneously reported information on "enemies" in the past (eg Jean Seberg).

Now, Lennon might have supported the IRA after all, but what was written exercised quite a bit of "selective omission". 67.10.136.147 07:46, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories

Are the conspiracy theories really notable enough to warrant their inclusion here? Is there any serious scholarship that believes Lennon's murder was a political assassination, or is this another case of Area 51-style cranks not taking their meds?—chris.lawson (talk) 06:37, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

John Lennon Day - Not Spam

Spam? It's difficuly to call a heart-felt attempt to remember the great man and his immortal message "spam". I'm sorry, but I believe the petition deserves a mention in the intro of the article not just for it's own sake, but as a testimony of the sheer vastness of John's popularity and political influence. You mention how he made the list of top Britons by BBC, yet you reserve a movement to name a holiday after him (perhaps one of the greatest honours) for the external links section. I fail to see your logic, please reconsider.

--Wikiuser 7 18:56, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Today is a bad day to edit this article, so save your edit for another day, perhaps. There's rampant vandalism due to the "current event"-like nature of the article, and we're busy fixing it. You edit may get rolled back in the process, but worse, it makes it harder fo us to sift through the history if we need to separate the vandals from the well-meaning editors. -- Enno 22:14, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

External links

An anon recently added a link to a fairly irrelevant "History of the 1980s" page, which contained one mention of Lennon: [1]. I briefly considered adding it to the article directly in place of the original link, but it seems as though our external links section here is pretty thorough. If someone thinks this article is relevant, I certainly won't object to its addition, but I didn't see the point myself.--chris.lawson 11:31, 24 October 2005

Timid, Conservative, Critical Assessment

Given the 5 Wiki pillars, the first paragraph on Lennon here: "heavily influenced rock music" is ludicrously inadequate in summing up his and his fellow Beatles' revolutionary development of popular music. I make this obvious point to illustrate a criticism I have of Wikipedia: the almost unfailing blandness of many of the entries.

The problem of verification of subjective standpoints is obviously one that can lead to a lot of wayward writing, but it seems to me that this has led, most unfortunately, to a dismal timidity and conservatism in the critical (critical as in evaluative sense)approach of the writers. If young people seeking to understand the impact made by leading artist of - in this case - the 20th century, then they sadly won't receive much of an education here. Whilst W. is hugely important as a provider of facts, and I don't undervalue this, but that's all it is. And in the case of Lennon, you can make the most enormous claims imaginable for his importance as a songwriter, singer and cultural leader in the 1960s, and have 100s of music scholars across the globe agreeing with you (the same is true for Dylan and countless other artists in W.)

So this is a plea for a bolder approach from the senior bods at Wikipedia; boldness is encouraged in one of the pillars, SO LET'S HAVE SOME.

Thoss 00:25, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

The NPOV policy is a "bigger" pillar, though. This is not a review site, so we try to stay away from unnecessary praise and let the facts about the subject speak for themself. See Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms. It's funny that you bring up Dylan because there has been an ugly battle over the first paragraph of that article for months. Maybe you'd like to weigh in on that dispute. And last, there is no such thing as "senior bods" here. You can improve this article however you like, you don't need to be a long-time user. Rhobite 15:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

anorexia

The article states "Some sources, such as Lennon In America: 1971-1980 claim that, during this period, he had a body weight of at most 135 lbs (61 kg), which is alarmingly thin for his 5'11 (1.80 m) height".

But according to the CDC's BMI classification (www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/bmi/calc-bmi.htm), 61 kg at 1.8 m is not even underweight, let alone "alarmingly" so. Is there any medical justification for the "alarming" characterization?

Trivia: simpsons

It is stated that John Lennon didn't appear on The Simpsons. However, I distincly remember years ago reading somewhere that Matt Groening had put him secretly into some episode, and that he was actually in the show, but did not reveal which episode. Can someone look into this?

I think images & impressions of lennon have appeard in the simpsons frequently, but I'm guessing this refferet to the actual person voicing themselves. The creators of the simpsons are quite proud that McCartney, Harrison and Starr have all actually voiced themselves on the show. Lennon, however, was unable to do so due to previous comittments (i.e. haveing died some 10 years before the series started). In that sense, he is the only beatle to never have apeeared on the simpsons.--Crestville 13:21, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

'Bigger than Jesus' material deserves own article

I strongly suggest splitting the accounts of this 'controversy' away from the biographical section into a completely new article. It is a very minot episode which is given undue prominence in the context of Lennon's life and work with the Beatles, disturbs the account and has no clear ending, and is equally relevant to discussion of the Beatles. 80.44.175.87 20:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Trivial coincidence between murders John Lennon and Dimebag Darrell

While there is no known connection between the murders of Lennon and Dimebag Darrell other than the date, it is absolutely worth mentioning in the trivia section, because both murders will be recounted and remembered by the media from now on. Somebody playing thought police keeps editing this trivia item out; it's at least as useful as half of the other trivia items. Earpol 00:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)