Talk:Erika Steinbach
Links and records
To clear up who lived in Rahmel see following legal records: Kirchenbuecher, Legal records of birth, marriage, death of inhabitants of Rahmel, Westprussia since c 1650
There is nothing to read in the link. Only info about 2 communities:Catholic and Protestant.Cautious 00:42, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
When this page becomes unprotected, can I suggest that 4 foreign language external links is too many. This is the English Wiki.... DJ Clayworth 05:38, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Except that sometimes there are primary sources available only in other languages and no equivalent English sources. Miguel 00:20, 2004 Mar 24 (UTC)
Erika Steinbach was born in occupied Poland
Erika Steinbach was born in occupied Poland. Poland didnt surrender in World War II and if you look at any english map of 1943 it will Say Nazi Occupied Poland. Her Father was a Nazi SS Officer that was transfered to Poland. This should return to my recent edit. 24.2.152.139 05:24, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Just go away, vandal. Why do you not find a Pole to edit, instead of vandalizing Erika Steinbach and Günter Grass? There is no need for your POVs and "discussion about place of birth". Nico 05:32, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Just go away someone who shows disturbing tendencies towards being a Nazi apologist. So, to those who claim Rumia was in West Prussia after 1918, look at these two maps Rumia's location and Borders of Weimar Germany. Rumia is clearly outside the territory of Germany after 1918. Therefore to call it part of West Prussia in 1943 is a lie. It was Nazi-occupied Poland. However, by the same token to refer to her father as a Nazi officer is going too far without evidence that he was active in the Nazi hierachy. To say he was a Luftwaffe officer is quite factually correct, and bad enough in many people's eyes considering what the Luftwaffe did to many of the cities of Europe. David Newton 19:08, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Rumia is a city in Poland, and in 1943 it was located in Nazi occupied Poland. Claiming that it was located in West Prussia and calling it with German name is insulting to Polish people, especially to those 12,000 Poles murdered in Piasnica Forest, thousands more expelled from their homeland and all the rest who were forbidden to use their language: Polish and Kashubian. Polish people were FORCED by the Nazis to use the German language, and those who refused were executed. It is a shame that such Nazi or Fascist practices are still tolerated in Wikipedia. We have to do something about it before the journalists will know about it. Gdansk 03:04, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Center against force migration
The article contains factual error in following sentence: One of her aims is to build a monumental center against force migration in Berlin, devoted to the ethnic cleansing of about 15 million Germans from Eastern Germany after the war as well as other victims of ethnic cleansing. She is a representive of the newly founded foundation Center against forced migrations (Zentrum gegen Vertreibungen).
There were never 15 milions of Germans in former Germany East of Oder-Neisse line. Rumia were not located at that moment in West Prussia. It was located on the area of Gau Danzig-West Prussia on occupied Poland.Cautious 00:39, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Rahmel was located in the administrative district of Danzig-West Prussia, yes, but the geographical name is simply West Prussia. It was in Germany when she was born. And why are you deleting references to her positions in ZDF, Goethe-Institut and the Landsmannschaft Westpreußen? Nico 00:43, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
At this particular moment, the admin division was Danzig-West Prussia, correct? And 15 milions makes no sense at all. Cautious 00:46, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Version deleted by Nico:
Erika Steinbach (born July 25, 1943 in Rumia, Poland then occupied by Nazi Germany) is a German politician (CDU). She is a daughter of a Nazi Officer who was stationed in occcupied Poland during WWII. She is now a member of the Bundestag (since 1990) and president of the Bund der Vertriebenen (since 1998), although some does not consider her an expellee herself, as she is the daughter of a Luftwaffe officer who was only stationed in Rahmel during the war.
One of her aims is to build a monumental center against force migration in Berlin, devoted to the faith of Germans after the war and other victims of ethnic cleansing. She is a representive of the newly founded foundation Center against forced migrations (Zentrum gegen Vertreibungen). This iniatiative was unanonimously condemned by Polish and Czech politicians, because it is allegedly aimed at rewriting history of WW2 to show Germans as victims and Poles and Czech as perpetrators.
Recently, Erika Steinbach in the name of Heimatvertriebene sued German journalist Gabriele Lesser for publishing articles explaining Polish point of view to German public. The questioned article was published Sep 19th 2003 in the daily Kieler Nachrichten.
External links
- http://www.bund-der-vertriebenen.de/derbdv/praesidentin.php3
- http://www.bundestag.de/mdb15/bio/S/steiner0.html
- http://www.cdu.de/ueber-uns/buvo/steinbach/steinbach.htm
- Zentrum gegen Vertreibungen (Official homepage)
Difference between POV and NPOV
I will also show you the difference between POV and NPOV
This is POV:
"She is a daughter of a Nazi Officer who was stationed in occcupied Poland during WWII. "
This is NPOV:
"she is the daughter of a Luftwaffe officer who was only stationed in Rahmel during the war."
-- Nico 00:48, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)~
- Unless you could document Nazi party membership, and then you could say a Nazi Luftwaffe officer or, preferably and more NPOV, a Luftwaffe officer and member of the Nazi party. Miguel 20:31, 2004 Mar 21 (UTC)
- Any sort of memberships of Steinbach's ancestors are irrelevant in the article dealing with Erika Steinbach, and as far as I know was her father not a politician. However, if you think he was important enough to be included in an encyclopedia himself, his possible memberships of course may be mentioned there. Nico 21:19, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Unilateraly annexation of Rumia was not recognized by any other country, then Germany and even there for not long. After 1945 revisionist talked about 1937 borders only. So her father was stationed on Polish soil. Luftwaffe was the Germany air forces of Nazi times, correct. Cautious 00:57, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Unilateral annexation of Eastern Germany in 1945 was not recognized by Germany either, until 1990. Btw., the liberation (if we have to use propagdandisms all the time) of Rahmel certainly were recognized by Germany's allies.
I also suppose you would not call Polish occupation officers in Iraq SLD officers because this party currently is ruling Poland? Luftwaffe is the air force of Germany, and has been since the first world war. -- Nico 01:13, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
There were no unilateral annexation of any part of Germany. The victorious powers moved Poland to fit between Curzon and Oder-Neisse. It was recognized by all countries except W. Germany untill 1970. The problem is, that there are no occupation officers in Iraq. There are stabilisation forces in Iraq. Polish army is no more politicised as it was in communist times and as it was in Wehrmacht times. There were strong ties between Army and NSDAP. What is important, that he was stationed on Polish soil and his daughter has no right to complain. Opposite is true, she should be ashamed by the fact, that shes father played such a role. By the way, do you know, that new candidate for German president, was born in Eastern Poland as the son of the Nazi times German settler?Cautious 01:32, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Don't be silly. Poland attacked the Iraqi people illegally. Hans Blix just stated it: The attack was illegal. You were waging a war of aggression, just like you claim Germany was, and a war to plunder oil. Cimoszewicz even said it, see BBC's article. That's also why the German press call Poland the Trojan donkey in Europe.
As for the German army, it was apolitical just like the army of Poland in communist times. What is important, is that Erika Steinbach was born in Rahmel in Germany. Finito. And why should she be ashamed because her father was a war hero who served his country? -- Nico 02:18, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- If she was born in Germany and lives in Germany, why she is a president of the Federation of Expelees?? She was not expeled herself. Soldier must move, where his duty calls. Poland didn't attack anybody. Cimoszewicz is an idiot. Cautious 09:49, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- "By the way, do you know, that new candidate for German president, was born in Eastern Poland as the son of the Nazi times German settler?"
- Walesa moved into Danzig in 1967 as far as I am concerned. As far as I am concerned, the real difference is that colonisation of Zamojszczzna was the part of Nazi planes, together with Holocaust, and was supposed to give as many victims as Holocaust. Fortunately was aborted and there were only few thousands of victims, mostly children. Polish and Russian settlements were part of international arrangements, that adjusted borders in Europe. This was not connected with the genocid planes. Cautious 09:49, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- The settlement in Eastern Germany was part of a planned ethnic cleansing of Germans from Eastern Germany that also included million of murdered people (=genocide). I see no difference. And what's wrong with this presidental candidate in question? Nico 06:00, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- What are you writing about? Genocide? Almost all casualities were effect of War, starvation or crimes commited by Soviet forces. Give me DOCUMENTED examples of Polish genocidal activities against Germans in 1945, please. Yeti
- The settlement in Eastern Germany was part of a planned ethnic cleansing of Germans from Eastern Germany that also included million of murdered people (=genocide). I see no difference. And what's wrong with this presidental candidate in question? Nico 06:00, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Walesa moved into Danzig in 1967 as far as I am concerned. As far as I am concerned, the real difference is that colonisation of Zamojszczzna was the part of Nazi planes, together with Holocaust, and was supposed to give as many victims as Holocaust. Fortunately was aborted and there were only few thousands of victims, mostly children. Polish and Russian settlements were part of international arrangements, that adjusted borders in Europe. This was not connected with the genocid planes. Cautious 09:49, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
You apparently fail to understand that Nazi Germany is called so not because the whole country joined the NSDAP.Halibutt 01:12, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
There are several issues to explain:
- The city of Rumia was and is situated in Poland, and this should be clearly stated
- In 1939-45 Rumia was occupied, annexed and renamed by the Nazi Germany - this occupation was not recognized by Poland or her allies
- There was no West Prussia in 1943; the Nazi-German occupational administration district was called Reichsgau Danzig-Westpreussen
So the article should say something like this: Rumia, Poland, then ocupied by the Nazi Germany (see: Reichsgau Danzig-Westpreussen)
Mestwin of Gdansk 20:07, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Nazi Point of View - violation of Wikipedia policies
In my opinion Nico is doing very bad work for Erika Steinbach, who is a controvercial but serious German politician. Nico's edits are clearly in violation of Neutral point of View policies. Wikipedia defines Neo-Nazism as any social or political movement that revive Nazism and postdating the Second World War. More and more Nico's activies makes us believe that Nico thinks that NPOV stands for Nazi Point of View. In my opinion Nico is doing very bad work for Erika Steinbach. - Mestwin of Gdansk 20:13, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The fact that many ethnic Germans moved to Germany as refugees around the end of WWII, or were deported, is a real political issue in modern Germany and deserves a dispassionate exposition, IMHO.
Also, the borders of central and eastern Europe have been historically very fluid (excuse me for the euphemism ;-). If I am not mistaken Poland was wiped out of the map several times during the 19th century, and there are many cities that have at one point or another been under Polish, German, Austriohungarian and/or Russian administration and do have German, Polish and Russian names. Gdansk/Danzig is an example. Kaliningrad/Königsberg/Królewiec/Karaliaucius/Regiomontium is another example. So let's describe the complexities of the situation and get on with it. Miguel 20:48, 2004 Mar 21 (UTC)
It's disturbing to see things like this come up again this way, though. But I guess we will have to deal with people that speak of "war heros" for quite some time... :-| TRauMa 04:17, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Just to get the discussion going in the right direction...
So, what do people think needs to happen in order for the page to be unprotected? Miguel 16:46, 2004 Mar 23 (UTC)
Wik has declared on his user page that he will "revert upon unprotection", so I have asked to keep the page protected. I have shown evidence that her place of birth is called "Rahmel, West Prussia" in the official Bundestag biography, but Wik continued to insert his POV without any explanation. Nico 17:36, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
There is ample explanation on this talk page of the position that the city was under military occupation and should be referred to by its Polish name. Miguel 18:58, 2004 Mar 23 (UTC)
Wikipedia's own Rumia page says
- The village named Rahmel was since 1770 a part of the German (Prussian) province of West Prussia until the end of the first world war, and was then located in the Pomeranian Voivodship of the newly created Polish state. During the WW2 1939-1945 reannexed by Germany to the province of Danzig-West Prussia. 1945 back to Pomeranian Voivodship. It became a city in 1954 when a few other villages, Zagórze, Biala Rzeka, Szmelta and Janowo, was joined with Rumia. In 2001 also the village of Kazimierz was included.
We do not have a page at Rahmel, but we should have one redirecting to Rumia. The German wikipedia, by the way, redirects Rahmel to Rumia even though the interlanguage link on the English Wikipedia is de:Rahmel. Is that confusing enough? Miguel 19:10, 2004 Mar 23 (UTC)
By the way, I regret not being able to read Polish so I can't really ascertain the differences between en:Rumia, de:Rumia and pl:Rumia or read the City History on Rumia's official web page. Maybe someone can help with this? All I can tell is that the page pl:Rumia does not mention any history from 1215 to 1870.
The Rumia/Rahmel controversy seems to be one of Nico's pet peeves, since he has also been involved in an edit war over Rumia. Miguel 19:27, 2004 Mar 23 (UTC)
- Miguel, Rahmel was military runway, where Wehrmacht father of Steinbach garrisoned and village of 900 people. City of Rumia was found in 1960. Cautious 21:16, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- From pl:Rumia. If I am not mistaken,
- 1954 - prawa miejskie - powstało z połączenia wsi: Rumia, Zagórze, Biała Rzeka, Szmelta i Janowo, a od 1 stycznia 2001 roku wsi Kazimierz.
- means that there was a village called Rumia which was incorporated into the city of Rumia together with a bunch of other little villages. This page distinguishes "Rumia" from "village Rumia". It is not true that there was no Rumia/Rahmel before 1954. Miguel 22:17, 2004 Mar 23 (UTC)
- They glued few villages and took the name of one to name the city. Cautious 18:24, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- From pl:Rumia. If I am not mistaken,
The city was not under military occupation. It was a part of Germany, and the official name was Rahmel. We use Danzig when referring to the city when it was known as Danzig, and Gdańsk when referring to the post-1945 city. We also use Rahmel when referring to Rahmel. When Steinbach was born, a city called Rumia did not exist. Nico 19:31, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Who recognized in 1943 Rumia to be part of Germany? Germany, Italy and possibly Japan. Maybe Vichy France and so on. In 1919 Germany recognized the border of Poland, that include Rumia. Cautious 18:24, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Who recognized it? Germany did. Because it was part of Germany. If you were born in Upper Silesia in 1970, should we use the German name of the place you were born because Germany did not recognize it as a part of Poland? Nico 19:39, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- From the point of view of international law, Polish Western territories were disputed by exactly 1 country before 1970. It derived from the deviation from the standard procedure to finish war: the borders after ww2 were drawn by the agreement of the winning powers in Potsdam. Nevertheless, there is big difference between disputed territories and occupied by war means territories annexation. The later is illigal. Cautious 19:47, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Who recognized it? Germany did. Because it was part of Germany. If you were born in Upper Silesia in 1970, should we use the German name of the place you were born because Germany did not recognize it as a part of Poland? Nico 19:39, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This (admittedly POV) criticism of Steinbach argues that "the little city was officially called Rumia since 1918". Miguel 21:00, 2004 Mar 23 (UTC)
LOL. From www.kommunisten-online.de (German stalinists). I think the Bundestag biography is more reliable than stalinist or fascist home pages. Nico 21:08, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I will agree that is is legitimate for German sources (such as the Bundestag) to call the city Rahmel. This is the customary practice when a place has names in more than one language. The question is what the appropriate name is on the English wikipedia. And note that the German wikipedia redirects de:Rahmel to de:Rumia. Miguel 22:17, 2004 Mar 23 (UTC)
The German Wikipedia is captured by people like those kommunisten-online.de folks (=Polish nationalists or whatever), so the German Wikipedia is in principle completely irrelevant as a source of German usage. However, if you read the article, the German version starts with "Rahmel (polnisch Rumia)".
And the English name of the city when it was German is Rahmel. There is nothing more to say. Nico 22:39, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- There were never any German city Rahmel. There were a village. How many times I must repeat it Cautious 18:24, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Sorry, no. The German wikipedia is in principle a relevant source, and a claim that is is biased needs to be substantiated by something other than your own claim, especially since a majority of people working on this page consider you biased. Miguel 23:52, 2004 Mar 23 (UTC)
- Sorry, your ignorance is not my problem. Are you the majority? I don't care about your ridiculous claims. Bye bye. Nico 00:24, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Could anyone write what's going on with that suing Gabriele Lesser case? It is on several pages but we still know nothing on it. -- Forseti 10:39, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
She is a completely unimportant and irrelevant young person calling herself "journalist" and with little knowledge of history, whose awful activities now has come to an end - hopefully (at least in the Kieler Nachrichten). I do not agree that Wikipedia should include an article dealing with this ridiculous person. Nico 19:39, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Discussion moved from Wikipedia:Protected page
- Erika Steinbach Wik, Space Cadet and Nico back at their silly game. Kosebamse 18:40, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- How about enforcing the new rule then? Nico reverted most, alone against 4 other people. Why protect his version? --Wik 18:35, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter, as it's always the wrong one. How about abiding by community norms and discussing things instead of annoying everyone with this childishness? Kosebamse 18:40, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- It's always someone's wrong version. But the new protection policy says sysops may decide to revert to the version disliked by the one doing the most reverts (in this case, Nico). As to discussion, been there, done that. Nico is just interested in pushing his POV and refuses to recognize facts, even as basic ones as that Prussia doesn't exist any more! --Wik 18:43, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
- I have justified my edits, and proved what the name of the place was when she was born, and which name is used in the official Bundestag biography. You haven't justified your edits at all, you are only inserting your POV in the article. Nico 18:48, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Wik, the word "may" is something of a keyword. :) Martin
- Yes, it means you may choose to exhibit your bias by applying the rule selectively. I'm not surprised. --Wik 01:00, Mar 16, 2004 (UTC)
- It's always someone's wrong version. But the new protection policy says sysops may decide to revert to the version disliked by the one doing the most reverts (in this case, Nico). As to discussion, been there, done that. Nico is just interested in pushing his POV and refuses to recognize facts, even as basic ones as that Prussia doesn't exist any more! --Wik 18:43, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
- I always look into the contents of a page before protecting; in cases of vandalism I protect the unvandalised version, and in cases of differences of opinion I don't give a damn which party will accuse me of protecting the wrong version afterwards. And BTW you might wish to take your disputes about content to article talk pages where they belong. Kosebamse 18:59, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Why don't you look at the article talk page? Cautious and others have already said everything, do I need to add a "me too"? --Wik 19:08, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
- An edit war is in itself justification enough to protect a page, and talk pages may or may not be helpful with the decision. They are inherently not too valuable in edit wars, as a sysop protecting a page is not to decide who is right. Although I usually have an opinion about which version is better, I explicitly refuse to discuss it in connection with differences of opinion (as opposed to vandalism). And again, this is not the place to discuss all this. Kosebamse 19:45, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter, as it's always the wrong one. How about abiding by community norms and discussing things instead of annoying everyone with this childishness? Kosebamse 18:40, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- User:Wik has declared (on his user page) that this page will be "reverted upon unprotection". Therefore, until he has changed his behaviour, the page should stay protected. -- Nico 18:18, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Rumia, Poland is the name that should be used in this article, as per Wikipedia policy on place names. You are the one contravening policy here, not Wik. Bearcat 01:03, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- No, I am not. The city was known as Rahmel, not Rumia, when Steinbach was born. It was not in Poland. See also Günter Grass. He was born in Danzig, not Gdansk. You are the one contravening policy here. The policy is to use appropriate historical names, so Leningrad for the Leningrad period (not St. Petersburg), Constantinople, not Istanbul, before 1930, and Rahmel when this city was known as Rahmel. Nico 01:30, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Rumia, Poland is the name that should be used in this article, as per Wikipedia policy on place names. You are the one contravening policy here, not Wik. Bearcat 01:03, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
German annexation
What's the dispute over here? The current version (Wik's, I think) looks fine. Mention both the current name of the town, and the name by which the Germans called it at the time. john 04:09, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- The thing is, that the city was officially a part of Germany and officially called Rahmel, not Rumia. Rahmel is also the former English name. It was not a part of Poland when Steinbach was born. "Occupied" is not more NPOV in this context than it is today ("occupied German city", for instance). Wikipedia ought to use a neutral wording like "She was born in Rahmel, West Prussia (now Rumia, Poland)", not Wik's and Gdansk's POVs. According to the official Bundestag biography [1], Erika Steinbach was born in "Rahmel in West Prussia", not in "Rumia in occupied Poland". Nico 04:17, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Is this town large enough to be considered to have had any English name? I think that's highly questionable. Also, being born in an area which Germany annexed during World War II which had previously been part of Poland is rather different than being born in something which was generally recognized to be part of Germany. (On the other hand, I see lots of sources that discuss, for instance, Gotenhafen during World War II, and that situation is rather similar). That said, Nico, can you give any evidence of "Rahmel" as the former English name? john 04:36, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The city had no "English" name, but the official name was used. Rahmel had belonged to Prussia since 1772 and became Polish in 1919. It was reannexed and belonged to Germany 1939-1945. Wikipedia articles should not use terms like "occupied", "rightfully" etc. If this should apply to Rahmel/Rumia, it also have to apply to cities like Danzig. Should we say "Lech Walesa lives in Danzig in occupied Germany"? (remember that the official position of the German government was that Danzig was "occupied Germany" for decades after the war). Nico 04:43, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Surely if any annexation was invalid, it was the Nazi annexations of 1939-1945. At any rate, my understanding was that the West German government claimed the German boundaries of 1937 - that is, not including Danzig/Gdansk. john 04:48, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Any point of view on the legality of the reannexation is not relevant here, the only point is to use a neutral wording. The annexation of Rahmel/Rumia was a fact, just like the Soviet annexation of, say, East Prussia. As for Danzig, you are correct. Sorry, my fault. Nico 04:54, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
No, the annexation is not a fact in the same way. The German annexation of the Sudetenland would be, or of Austria, but I don't think the Reichsgau Danzig-West Prussia can be considered to be of the same nature. Annexations in wartime which are reversed immediately upon the war ending, are of a different sort. At any rate, I don't see why the name is all that important, so long as both names are mentioned, and the whole political situation is properly explained. john 06:14, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- The annexation was absolutely a fact, and it should not be Wikipedia's concern whether it was "legal" or "not legal". If Rahmel in Germany anno 1943 should be described as "occupied Poland", today's Königsberg, Breslau or any other city occupied by Soviet after the war should certainly also be described as "occupied Germany". It's unfair to treat actions of one state different than actions of other states. Anyway, the Polish and American occupation of Iraq is not legal either. Nico 19:06, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Nico, you do not understand or pretent not to understand. Brezlau was under Soviet occupation in June 1945. But in August 1945 this city was transfered to Poland by decision of allies. The decision was legal because Germany surrendered on 8th of May 1945. So according to international law the transfer was legal. Poland did not surrendered and in 1943 was a fighting part and annexation was not recognized by neither by Poland nor by its allies. Besides the German states recognized status quo in 1950 and 1971, as well as united Germany did in 1991. Comparison to iraq is very silly. I know nothing about annexation of any part of Iraq by US or Poland. It is simple for everybody but you.Yeti 19:53, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Also, if one wants to discuss the legal base of the annexation - all governments of English-speaking countries were not only members of the Allies, but also authors both the 1918-1939 and the 1945-now eastern borders of Germany. The fact that 1 (one) government disputed the border until 1970 does not mean that English wiki should support the claims and use German name.Halibutt 10:14, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- We are not discussing the name of the present-day city called Rumia, but the city when Steinbach was born. Nico 19:06, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I would also like to add that East Germany did not dispute the border in 1970 only W.Germany did. 24.2.152.139 14:31, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- The East zone did not represent Germany, according to the Hallstein doctrine. The western world considered Germany the single representative of Germany. And, alas, the Soviet world does not exist anymore. Nico 19:06, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Let me quote yourself then: :We are not discussing the name of the present-day city called Rumia, but the city when Steinbach was born. Nico 19:06, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- At the time she was born there was no DDR nor BRD yet. There was only 3rd Reich. None of the English-speaking countries accepted the annexation of any piece of Polish territory. Neither of the Allied states accepted (neither de facto nor ex post) any ethnic cleansing, names changing, forced migration or any other policy imposed on the newly-conquered lands. The only country to accept it was Nazi-Germany, whose government was later declared a criminal organization. Do you still insist that the Allies, who declared all anexations and pacts signed by Nazi Germany null and void, accepted them in the single case of Rumia? Please provide the respective paragraph of the peace treaty or any Allied conference. Otherwise we'd have to stick to Rumia.Halibutt 22:01, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
You are not in position to declare any government as "criminal". Personally I consider the Soviet and other Allied governments criminal, but this is an encyclopedia, and hence, both your opinions on which governments were criminal as well as my opinions on which governments were criminal, are irrelevant. Erika Steinbach was born in a country called the Deutsches Reich or Germany. It was the same state as founded in 1871. If Soviet annexations are recognized as factual in Wikipedia, also other annexations should. Rahmel was historically German, and historically known in English as Rahmel. English-speaking people generally used German names until most recently, even for places no longer in Germany. I doubt that Rahmel in English became known as Rumia to a general audience in the short period between the wars it was part of Poland. Also, Polish users seems to strongly insist on using local "official names" for cities like Danzig, even if the Germanic name may be more popular. Rumia is the current official name of the city we are discussing. Rahmel was the official name when Steinbach was born. Nico 22:40, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Nico, it's not me but the Allies. Both NSDAP and the government of Nazi Germany were declared a criminal organization. Nevertheless, even if (if) the Allies decided that it was only one guy who was wrong and the rest of the NSDAP were ok, it doesn't change the fact that the annexation was not recognized in terms of any international law. The territory was not ceded by Poland in any peace treaty (since there was none in 1939) and no government recognized ex post after the war.
- Also, if you insist that the city became known in English under its' German name - could you please provide any source that would back up your claims? Let alone the fact that the city did not exist at the time she was born there and was but a small village. Just provide any English-speaking reliable source referring to the village with the German name Rahmel.Halibutt 23:26, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Edit war
Please stop warring over word choice. ugen64 02:02, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)
- Well, that seems hypocritical. Those edits are not the best wording possible, namely because of the following: the term occupied is POV; currently, we could call the Iraqi Governing Council the leader of "occupied Iraq"; that makes it seem like we have militarily conquered, against its will (which is only partly true), the country of Iraq.
- Second, the edits that have been proposed are gramatically incorrect. All I have done is changed the wording of a few statements to make it more gramatically correct and possibly less wordy (although I'm not sure if I've achieved the latter). ugen64 02:16, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)
In 1939 Poland didnt surrender England and France declared war. The USA did not recognize the so called annexation of Poland. And if you look at any english map of the time it says Occupied Poland. Its not like the Germans were invited there. Would you rather have it say Nazi Occupied Poland ?? Like in the link below:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Erika%20Steinbach
- My wording conveys the exact same idea that yours does, just in more neutral language. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Erika_Steinbach&diff=3077137&oldid=3077130 is, IMO, acceptable enough not to fight over it... ugen64 02:23, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)
Nope you included "Now in" assuming that it wasnt in Poland Pre WWII. It was a Part of Poland then as it is now and was a part of the restored Poland since 1919. 24.2.152.139 02:27, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- As I understand it, the city was previously located in West Prussia, and if you want to get technical, it was also a possession of Germany. If I said "the city of Rumia in Poland" then turned around and said "also the city of (I forget the name) in West Prussia", that looks confusing. So, I said "modern-day Poland", to illustrate to the reader that the city is now located in Poland. If you'd like, I can clarify the border situations of Poland; but that's hardly relevant. ugen64 02:29, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)
I have to agree with ugen64 and Nico that "Nazi Occupied Poland" is POV and inappropriate here. It was a part of the German province of Danzig-West Prussia at that time. / Ertz
Note that http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Erika%20Steinbach is a copy of this Wikipedia article at a given point. / Ertz
- Just like people who were born in the Channel Islands in 1943 were born in Germany (now United Kingdom), right?Halibutt 05:53, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Being part of Germany and being under military occupation are two different things. While Rahmel officially was a part of Germany, for instance Denmark was not a part of Germany in 1943. Got it? Iraq is not a part of Poland either, but if a city in Iraq was declared part of Poland and resettled with Poles, Wikipedia should not take sides but respect that. Or will you prefer to refer to Breslau in 1970 as "occupied Germany", because Germany considered it occupied while the occupants did not? Nico 22:00, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- So let's stick to the facts and I'm sure we can end this dispute in no-time just. If the occupied Poland was a part of Germany while other states were only occupied, then please simply post the name the peace treaty signed between Poland and Nazi Germany or, if you can't find it, some other international agreement that ceded any part of Polish pre-WWII territory to Germany. Halibutt 23:48, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Rahmel was not occupied Poland. It was de jure a part of a province of Germany. The opinion of the fascist ex-government of Poland in 1943 is irrelevant here. Anyway, a country called "Nazi Germany" does not exist more than "Stalinist Poland". Nico 23:57, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Should I understand that you can't cite even one good source to back up your version? Why do you insert it then?
- Also, you're dangerously close to crossing the line. Please behave and consider yourself warned.Halibutt 00:48, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- So I understand, that you can not cite any sources to support your claims. So why do you start this discussion at all?Yeti 11:25, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Okay, whatever, I concede. The only reason I reverted, anyway, is because of the HORRIBLE wording. For example: "in annexed by Germany part of Poland", and many other examples. If you're going to revert my edits, at least do it in a gramatically correct fashion. ugen64 20:53, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)
How about:
She was born Rahmel, Germany (Polish Rumia before and after the war)...
In general, I think Nico is right here. If this piece of land was part of the Reich both de facto and (from the German POV) de iure, then we should write it was German. Just like we'd say that the Kuril Islands are part of Russia even though no peace treaty has been signed between Russia and Japan.
--Kpalion 03:49, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Your proposal is fine. And of course Rumia should be linked, not Rahmel. Nico 03:57, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
So, we have got something like: born in 1943 in Strassburg, Germany (today Strasbourg, France or Nancy, Germany (today France) or born in Litzmanstadt, Germany (today Lodz, Poland) or born in Gottenhaven, Germany (today Gdynia, Poland). Sorry, but it looks really very, very weird.Yeti 11:19, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Yes, it does. Beacause history itself is weird! --Kpalion 13:21, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Strasbourg has always been the English name of that city. Nico 12:05, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I certainly have seen Strassburg when referring to the city at earlier times. john 06:36, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"Kuril Islands are part of Russia even though no peace treaty has been signed between Russia and Japan"
A treaty has been signed but the Island dispiute is not over and btw unlike in WWII almost every country in the world recognizes the islands as a part of russia. She was born in Poland and if we change this we should change everyone who was born in Paris in 1941-1944 to Paris,Germany. 24.2.152.139 22:25, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- The case of Paris is different. It was occupied by Germans but the German gov't didn't officially claim that Paris was part of the Reich. --Kpalion 23:30, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- You can't call it Nazi Occupied Poland. That's like saying the White House was once located in "Socialist Occupied Washington D.C." It doesn't work. I shall unprotect the page now. Make whatever edits you want, I'll only change horrid grammar that is inserted, as I have shown above. ugen64 22:30, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)
- There's a difference between [[Nazi Germany|Nazi]] (which is the case here) and [[NSDAP|Nazi]]. Halibutt 07:11, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- German-occupied is certainly better. john 06:36, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Request for mediation
Nico, would you participate if I requested for mediation? Since you're the only Rahmel hard-liner here your acceptance of mediation seems essential. Halibutt 22:56, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I don't see the point with mediation. 2+2=4 and not 6 in any case. In my opinion, if that city in 1943 should be called "Nazi Occupied Poland", we also have to refer to Breslau as "Breslau, stalinist-occupied Germany" when discussing Poles born in or living in that city until Herbert Frahm/Willy Brandt and his STASI-paid friends recognized the borders as factual. Is that fair, or should we just stick to refer to both cities in a more neutral way? What do you think about Kpalion's proposal? Nico 04:34, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Nico refused the mediation.Halibutt 05:39, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Mayby something like this. It is CLEAR statement of fact:
She was born in the town of Rumia (German: Rahmel) in annexed by Germany part of Poland, Reichsgau Danzig-West Prussia, to a Luftwaffe officer who was from western Germany and was only stationed there during the war. For this reason, some do not consider her an expellee herself.Yeti 00:17, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
How about She was born in the town of Rumia (German: Rahmel), in the German province of Reichsgau Danzig-West Prussia, formed out of territory annexed from Poland and the Free City of Danzig in 1939, to a Luftwaffe officer..."? That's rather awkward, though...john 01:24, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- At least better than Yeti's version. How about "Rahmel (Rumia)" or "Rumia (then Rahmel) in West Prussia (now Poland)"? "West Prussia" is the correct English name, I think. According to the official Bundestag biography, she was born in West Prussia. Reichsgau Danzig-Westpreußen was an administrative region but not necessarily the appropriate English geographical name. Nico 07:40, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Do you also want these removed? http://www.google.com/search?q=German-occupied&domains=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org --Voodoo 08:07, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)