Talk:Evansville, Indiana

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Business & Employment

User:Randella, who also apparently posts under IP address User:69.217.81.240, believes that the image of Old National Bank is better under this heading then a wide aerial view of downtown. This is against Wikipedia norms and should not be done. Randella responds that there is already a downtown photo. First, no photo is better than one of the corporate headquarters of a specific business in the city. Second, I contend that the photos in question are very different, with very different views, very different angles, and different perspectives. I would prefer the previous picture, but if there is consensus against it then no picture is better than one of a specific corporation. Please leave perspectives here until a consensus develops.--YHoshua 21:57, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think the aerial view is best there. The ONB photo isn't bad but that is just one business. I'm not sure I would say it is against wikipedia policy though. 12.220.47.145 02:02, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
just to clarify my view point on the matter, my opinion is that since there is already a general shot of the skyline on the page, it would be more appropriate to have a business related photo in that area -- ie: either focus on a local corporate headquarters or some type of people shot of a production line from one of the major factories if it was available. i prefer the old national bank headquarters since they are an $8.5 billion dollar corporation headquarted in the city. i also liked the variety and contrast of having the old vanderburgh county courthouse, reitz home museum, and the onb headquarters all on the same page. Randella 22:12, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
- Fair enough, but I've been told on more than one occassion that images of specific businesses and corporations should be avoided on the main pages of cities. I was told that this is a wikipedia policy, although a cursory browse was unable to find anything like that in writing. If you feel strongly about it I can stomach it, but I'd prefer something else, like the bustling eastside commercial district. However I do agree that ONB is one of Evansville's most significant corporation's and it certainly has the best corporate headquarters, so I can go along with it if I must. On an unrelated note, I'm very happy that both of you are contributing so much to the Evansville page(s). We need more Eville contributors.--YHoshua 00:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
- i'm not gonna force the issue... i understand your concern about focusing on any single company. i did find a photo of the airport for the transportation section that helps to break up the text on the lower end of the page, so a photo in the business section isn't as critical now. glad to see evansville has people who care how it is represented. Randella 07:00, 7 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  - As I wrote on your discussion page, the airport picture is excellent.--YHoshua 13:29, 7 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Cultural Features

i just realized that the lst now docked on the river isn't listed as a point of interest. it offers ship tours right now and has a gift shop. do you think that warrants an addition? if someone wants to tackle it, that would be great. i don't have any information on it available. Randella 23:07, 9 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If I have time I will, I forgot as well. The LST merrits mention. I don't believe the dock is mentioned either. 12.220.47.145 01:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone ahead and created a page for the USS LST 325.--YHoshua 02:09, 10 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Evansville Boneyard

Why do you not allow a site such as The Evansville Boneyard http://www.americanboneyard.org , that for the last 10 years has dedicated its mission to the promotion of Evansville, to be menitoned in the Media section of the Wikipedia post on Evansville, Indiana? The Boneyard has featured the city's writers, artists, photographers, poets, playright, politicians like no other publication in Evansville. It has had extensive Evansville history quizzes, digitized memorable local tv-commercials, recorded the Official song of Evansville, featured historic homes and the architecture of the city, and published large portions of photograph collections. It has featured historical markers, provided histories of The West Side, The Evansville Zoo , the radio years, the history of early TV , other industries, and biographies of significant historical persons. It has also fostered editorials about issues in the City. All as a public service with no fees or advertising.

You blocked the entry of Boneyard because it is "unsuitable" for your Evansville, Indiana entry. To any reasonable person that premise is preposterous.

There are 4 Wikipedia conditions about linking: 1. It needs to be added by someone other than the owner. That was a rule I didn't know about and is easly remedied. 2. It must not have any advertising. There has never been any advertising on the Boneyard. 3. It must not be a commerical site, It is not a commercial site..it is a public service. 4. It must not have a pay to view cost.

With the exception of not having another user add it to your site it has broken no rules, and easily remedied.

However, you do have TWO links to Evansville Living Magazine, which is a commerical site, that has a link to order the magazine, and has advertising. The Evanvsille Boneyard and Evansville Living Magazine have almost identical missions, yet you do not allow the Boneyard to part of your Evansville, Indiana, Wikipedia,. Do you have some association with Tucker Publishing?

Ironically, you deleted as "unsuitable" a 75th Anniversary Mesker Zoo history and pictorial that was posted by someone else that was submitted to the Boneyard by the Mesker Zoo! Quite, perplexing..I must say.

The current issue of The Evansville has been visited by servers in over 25 coutries, not counting the military servers which could be anyplace in the world, and , while obviously not appreciated by you, has donated thousands of hours to promoting the Evansville story. All on my nickle.

So I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for an explanation to me and your readers why you deprive the Wikipedia community interested In Evansville, Indiana access to The Evansville Boneyard and am requesting that your be fair and allow the Boneyard a place in your media section of the Wikipedia - Evansville, Indiana.

Regards, John Baburnich Publisher and Editor The Evansville Boneyard http://www.americanboneyard.org

hi john. i actually added the link to the boneyard... i have learned a lot from your site and thought it was a good external link. but then i saw a few missing images on your site and wondered if it was being maintained. so i took it out a few days ago. sorry about that! i don't think anyone has a problem with having a link to your site. but don't be taken out evansville living! i actully added the media section and only focused on the major stuff. but i also realized the contribution your site added, so that's why i added it. but that said, it doesn't deserve any more or less treatment than any other media. just my two cents. Randella 02:48, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Remove. With all due respect John, I do not feel that the "boneyard" deserves placement on the page. That is has existed for 10 years and has a noble mission is irrelevant. There are literally scores of websites with similar missions, and Wikipedia policy is not solely concerned with a website's mission. Moreover, "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information." You list four factors to determine if a website deserves inclusion, but that is far from being an exhaustive list. There are criteria for notability when it comes to products and services like yours. These criteria include any one of the following:

The product or service has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company itself.
The product or service is so well-known that its trademark has suffered from genericization.

Evansville Boneyard does not meet this criteria. It has not been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works, nor is it so well-known that its trademark has suffered from genericization.

An article is important if "There is evidence that a reasonable number of people are, were or might be concurrently interested in the subject (eg. it is at least well-known in a community)." Your site is a simple page about Evansville, that receives very little traffic and that has numerous imitators. It's Alexa and Google ranking is very low, which is a measure that has been used to delete websites that are much more significant than yours. Wikipedia is not a venue for unencyclopedic information and this link would not be included in an encyclopedia. For the numerous reasons listed above, I cannot support its inclusion.--YHoshua 14:05, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Just as an example of some sites we would need to start including if we followed your policy, we would need to include Paul Musgrave's website, as it was the first weblog from Evansville. He frequently talks about Evansville and Indiana on a daily basis. His readership is exponentially larger than yours. We would also need to include In the Agora, a nationally known website which has received over ten times the amount of traffic that Evansville Boneyard has in just one year's time. Next we would need to include Indiana Barrister, which also has countless more visitors. And of course there's Evansville Online, the Convention & Visitors Bureau, the police department, the Evansville Vanderburgh Public Library, Metropolitan Evansville Chamber of Commerce, Sustainable Evansville, and the list goes on forever. All of these sites and more deserve inclusion before Evansville Boneyard. But in the end few of them, including Evansville Boneyard, actually meet Wikipedia criteria.--YHoshua 14:16, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Joshl - Do a google ranking on http://www.evansville.net/user/boneyard - that is the URL that the search engines know it by. You never gave justificattion why Evansville Living Magazine is included. But it it your ball and you make the rules. I hope you do a google ranking on the updated url and make a retraction if the number is more significant. But all in all thanks for the work you are doing.

Also the Boneyard has been featured by the Evansville Courier(on a banner headline 6/20/1999) and also a few of the stories produced by the Boneyard has covered by the Courier. It has been been the focus in other newpapers in Illinois and Kentucky, and was featured by WEVV-TV.

John

John I know that you put a lot of into that website, so please don't take my statements as bashing it. I think it's a well done site and I wish you the best of luck with it. But that doesn't make it encyclopedia worthy. I performed a Google search on it and only 14 pages link to it, giving it a very, very low Google ranking. Compare that to In the Agora, which garners 63,100 back links, or my personal website, which has 12,800 links to it. My posts at both of those websites are regularly published in the Evansville Courier & Press. Does that mean they should be listed as well? I think not. A number of websites more popular and significant than yours has been denied. In sum, the Google and Alexa ranking for Evansville Boneyard is extremely low, and it has not been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company itself.--YHoshua 19:05, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I don't derive pleasure from denying you. If it does happen to be included, however, it should not be bolded, as you have been doing, and it should not be included in the main section on media.--YHoshua 19:08, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Josh,

Forget the inclusion of the Boneyard on your page. The Evansville Library links it and that is far more important than a link in a very unstable media as Wikipedia(Sigenthaler) .. Does any library link your page? And not in a mean spririted meaning..it is your loss..not mine. Your page having 12,800 links means nothing if nobody is clicking it. Every issue the Boneyard index page gets between 2500 and 3300 unique hits an issue and about 5,500 total hits. But the complete archive receives many more hits. Not a high number, but not a low one considering the market. But it has very targeted audience and nobody in Evansville is going to get rich catering to the culturally curious. The other sites you mention hardly have Evansville as its main focus. In today's technology it would be easy to get 12,800 links. Any measure that bases it value on 'links' is being ingenuous. And you probably already know that. There is a trick to getting links in today's technological arena..If links is what I wanted ...that would be easy. Links doesn't mean it is read or has merit. . Speaking of bloggers, you mentioned that your brother had the first 'blog' in Evansville. If by 'blogging' you mean a person who expresses their opinions via new technology (in this case the Internet) and escapes the bounds of the traditional media with the trappings of editors and publishers, advertisers,and costs, and becomes a 'citizen journalist'..then former Indiana State Represenative J. Jeff Hays (77th district) has been blogging since 1995, I don't know when your brother started his page but if your brother was blogging in 1994 then you can make the claim that he was the first 'blogger' in Evansville.

Josh, Keep up the good work, it is good that somebody is taking the initiative, and you seem to have the enegy and smarts to be prolific.

One last query. What about Evansville Living Magazine's link? What makes it 'encyclopedic worthy'. Do you have any relationship with Tucker Publishing? You haven't really justified its presence in your Wikipedia page.

John

Again, I appreciate the work your doing in Wikipedia

I feel bad because it does no harm to me if an innocent link is included, and this clearly means a lot to you. I don't think it's Wikipedia worthy, but it's not the end of the world either way. Also, for what it's worth, Google does include archive hits, and I took readership into account when mentioning the other sites (the readership there is over 1,000 hits daily). Finally, Paul Musgrave is not my brother.--YHoshua 00:25, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Josh, With that single statement you've completely contradicted your entire argument and abrogated your principles.

Actually 'encyclopedia' is an overstatement for Wikepedia. ANY publication without peer-review should never gain or earn the name or inference of 'Encyclopedia' - Perhaps Wikipedia should be referred as 'Encylopedia Light'

One last time...do you have any relationship with Tucker Publishing?

I don't understand the repeated comparisons to Evansville Living. Do you really think it is in the same league as Evansville Boneyard? --YHoshua 23:28, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Heavens no...The Boneyard is not in the same league as the Evanville Living. The Evansville Living magazine prints very few local stories hidden somewhere among hundreds and hundreds of ads. It is the most overated publication I can think of. It has only been in business for 5 years and hasn't proven the test of time. But it is curious how you refuse to answer the single question if you have a relationship with Evansville Living Magazine. I still get a kick how Evanvsille Living Magazine wrote a story on how Mike Small won the Men's city golf tournament. He didn't. It is certainly not 'encylopedic'.But I do occasionly buy it and read it and consider it an asset to the community. That is because I believe in building up ... and not tearing down...as you do.

john, i added the media section -- including the reference to evansville living. i have no relationship with the magazine or tucker publishing. i only included major newspaper, magazine, radio, and television stations. evansville living is a major print magazine and should be included. Randella 14:39, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]