Talk:Pedophilia/Archive 5

Archived discussion:

• before July 12, 2004
• before September 30, 2005

"Cultural Norms"

I have removed large parts of the section on cultural norms. Apparently some editors are pursuing an agenda of portraying paedophilia and sexual relationships with prepubescent children as acceptable. They do this by offering often bizarre POV statements on sexuality, by suggesting that paedophilia is tolerated in certain cultures and by confusing the distinction between sex with prepubescent children (i.e. paedophilia) and sex with adolescents. This muddying of the waters obviously plays into the hands of those who try to promote acceptance of paedophilia by appealing to a degree of tolerance of sexual relationships between adults and relatively mature adolescents. Please acquaint yourselves with Wikipedia policies and stop using Wikipedia to push your agenda WP:NOT.

• In the early 20th century Western society, discussing sex with one's children was frowned upon. This was likely brought on by the Victorian age. This led to many adults not being completely prepared for sexual intercourse, or having misinformation. As a result, sexual education became commonplace in schools in the second half of the 20th century. Sexual education has been criticized, though, to focus too much on abstinence and biology, and not enough on forms of birth control. In general, critics assert that sexual education avoids discussion of ways to enjoy sex, or how to attain mutual pleasure in ways other than vaginal intercourse.

This paragraph attempts to summarise the history of sex in 20th century Western society to draw a POV conclusion regarding sexual enjoyment. This has strictly nothing to do with paedophilia - that is, unless one regards paedophilia as a natural aspect of human sexuality and pursues an agenda of portraying paedophilia as a way of attaining sexual enjoyment. Please check WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:PN. Also, if you paedophile activists really think that the increased public concern about paedophilia is a result of a Victorian views of sexuality, I'd say that you're deeply in denial: sex with prepubescent children constitutes one of the severest forms of child abuse. The increased public concern about paedophilia is a result of an increased awareness about the vulnerability of children and the resulting need to protect them.

• Sex between children and adults was condoned and often encouraged by Polynesians and other cultures, especially matriarchical societies. The reason for this was because these societies revered fertility and motherhood and did not attempt to control sex. Western influence and domination has eroded their open views about sex. Therefore, direct observation is no longer possible, and the only references are older observations made before widespread Western influence.

No evidence or references are provided to back up the bizarre view that paedophilia is a common feature of "matriarchical" [sic] societies. Please check WP:PN, WP:V, WP:NOR and in case you come up with a source, make sure it conforms to WP:RS.

• In Japanese society, the attraction towards teenage girls (high-school students) is a widespread cultural phenomenon. The manifestations of such attraction, such as lolicon art, school uniform fetishes and sexual relations with teenage girls (e.g. enjo kosai) are more tolerated by society than in the West, though child pornography is illegal in Japan.

As this article clearly states, paedophilia is the paraphilia of being sexually attracted primarily or exclusively to prepubescent children, i.e. children below the age of 10-13. Paedophilia is not about adolescents.

• In France and in most of the Francophone world, relationships between children and adults are usually accepted. Movies like Brodeuses (A common thread) (2003) usually show these relationships in a casual way, not giving much importance or attention to the difference of age. Nabokov's Lolita—the book was first released in France (in 1955), while Adrian Lyne's 1997 film Lolita faced no restrictions in all of Europe, including France; and Celine Dion's Lolita —the song—was released only in French by the Canadian bilingual singer. The movie Pretty Baby (1978)—depicting 12-year old Brooke Shields playing a preteen prostitute—was filmed by a Frenchman, Louis Malle.

Paedophilia and sexual relationships between children and adults are widely thought of as abhorrent in France and the Francophone world. Paedophilia is about sex with children below 10-13 and not about adolescents.

• Another society with tolerance for such relationships is Brazil, where ageism or prejuidicial treatment on the grounds of age has been forbidden by the Brazilian Constitution since 1998. In 1999, 28-year old Marcio Garcia, a nationally famous actor, dated 14-year old model Daniella Sarahyba for over a year in which period the relationship was accepted by the Brazilian mainstream media and by the television network which he worked for. Also in the 1990s 13-year old Kelly Key, who would become a famous singer, started dating 23-year old singer Latino, whom she married later on. Before that, in 1982, 40-year-old Caetano Veloso —a famous Brazilian singer and composer—began a relationship with 13-year-old Paula Lavigne, though he was already married at the time. He divorced and married Lavigne 3 years later. Their marriage lasted 19 years, ending only in 2004. The relationship was respected and he was not persecuted by the media or music industry. None were named as pedophiles, an accusation that could be considered as slander in Brazil.

So the near-universal condemnation of acting out paedophilia is the result of [[ageism]?? WP:PN

• Reactions to adult-adolescent relationships may be considered by some as a prejudice like racism or the hatred against immigrants: ageism. In the 1980s, 15-year-old Brazilian student Eliane Maciel sought for judicial help against her conservative parents. She wanted the judge to rule that she had the right to date a 33-year old man with whom she was in love, and she won. They eventually married. Her drama was told in the 1983 autobiographical best-seller Com licença, eu vou à luta—É ilegal ser menor? ("Excuse me, I'm gonna fight—Is it illegal to be a minor?"), which adapted for a prize-winning 1986 film. It's important to realize that contempt for age differences in relationships is not limited to adult-child relationships. For instance, it is not unusual for a relationship between a 55-year-old and a 25-year-old to be opposed in the West.

And again, this has nothing to do with paedophilia - these are adolescents.

• In many countries, sexual attraction, desires or fantasies in adults towards underage adolescents is quite common. A sign of this is that, in the adult porn industry, a reasonable market share goes to movies that show young women dressed in uniforms, characterized as high-school students. Some of these movies are regularly aired on popular adult channels like Playboy TV.

"Young women dressed in uniforms" are not prepubescent. Paedophilia is about sex with children below 10-13. - pir 22:05, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Response

Pedophilia isn't "about sex with children below 10-13," it's an attraction. In my opinion, sexual relations between adults and children shouldn't be legalized, but at least provide a real argument for it, not: "sex with prepubescent children constitutes one of the severest forms of child abuse." 24ip | lolol 01:06, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

You did not in the least respond to my justification for removing large parts of the section on cultural norms. Wikipedia is not about my opnions or your opinions, it is about writing a high-quality encyclopedia. I removed these parts because they violate Wikipedia policy.

Also, you do not seem to have understood what I wrote. Pedophilia 'is' an attraction, of course, and more procisely it is about a primary sexual attraction to prepubescent children, in other words it is about wanting to have sex with children below 10-13. Secondly, when I said that sex with prepubescent children constitutes one of the severest forms of child abuse, I did not make an argument or ask for this opinion to be inserted as fact into the article - it was obviously a side comment on a bizarre idea implicit in the first paragraph, namely the idea that the near-universal abhorrence felt towards paedophilia is the result of Victorian attitudes to sex. It was also a response to the even more bizarre idea that the strong rejection most people express towards paedophilia is due to ageism.

I would be pleased if you could in the future respond to my justification for removing the text before you put it back. - pir 16:42, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

"This has strictly nothing to do with paedophilia - that is, unless one regards paedophilia as a natural aspect of human sexuality" -- I believe it is, and I very much doubt I'm alone. There will always be kids attracted to adults (as I was) and adults attracted to children. This has almost certainly always been the case. I disagree with removal just because you make the subjective judgement that pedophilia is "unnatural".

Wikipedia is about writing a high-quality encyclopedia, and the talk pages are there to facility writing such articles - not for general debate about your opinion. - pir

"sex with prepubescent children constitutes one of the severest forms of child abuse." -- As one of the "abused" (legally speaking, only), I believe this is not true. I could argue that sexual repression and teaching kids that sex is wrong is a form of child abuse. I see gentle sexual intimacy between children and adults as natural and non-harmful. I am not a pedophile, but I am pro pedophile rights and children's rights not to be messed up with anti-sex nonsense.

Irrelevant an inverifiable. - pir

Btw - "paraphillia" is just a category that certain people use, and an intentionally derogatory term. It actually means very little in terms of human sexuality itself - it's more just a way for people to say pedophilia is "unnatural" or a "fetish". It's an artificial category dreamed up by certain human psychologists, according to their own POV about sex.

No. According to Wikipedia, Paraphilia is a widely used mental health term to indicate sexual arousal in response to sexual objects or situations which may interfere with the capacity for reciprocal affectionate sexual activity. - pir

I disagree with removing great chunks of information like this, simply because you are anti-pedophilia. I don't think that some of what you've removed is POV at all. Much of it is simply neutral information, and that's what an encyclopedia is for. I disagree with removal based more on an ideological stance than a particular desire to improve the article.

I removed them because they violate the named Wikipedia policies. - pir

I don't want to see this article used as some kind of argument for legalisation, but it should in no way be an anti-pedophilia article either.

For those who added this information in the first place, I hope you can source everything, explain the direct bearing on the subject of pedophilia, neutralise any POV language, and get it all put back up --Kate--195.93.21.101 00:06, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

We are here to write a NPOV article appropriate for a high-quality encyclopedia in accordance with Wikipedia policies. That means : WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:PN. I will continue to remove content that violates Wikipedia policy. - pir 16:42, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

"According to Wikipedia, Paraphilia is a widely used mental health term to indicate sexual arousal in response to sexual objects or situations which may interfere with the capacity for reciprocal affectionate sexual activity."

-Then I'm convinced that pedophilia cannot logically be a paraphillia. "Interfere with the capacity for reciprocal affectionate sexual activity"? Rubbish. Please refer to my earlier comments. My own supposed "abuser" was the most sensitive and affectionate men I've ever met, bar none.

This article may enlighten, particularly the latter parts.

http://www.logicalreality.com/p2/2SexPlay1.htm

"For those who added this information in the first place, I hope you can source everything, explain the direct bearing on the subject of pedophilia, neutralise any POV language, and get it all put back up" - I stand by this. Make the information irrefutably stand up to the standards of wiki policy and put it back up, whoever wrote these sections.

--Kate--172.216.189.162 23:36, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Regardless of everyone's opinion, I don't think the case has been fully made that the deleted material is POV. It seems pir may be deleting simply because he/she is uncomfortable with pedophilia. I'm uncomfortable with Islam, but it isn't right for me to delete parts that offend me, using wikipedia policy to claim parts are biased because they make Islam seem acceptable.

• Sex between children and adults was condoned and often encouraged by Polynesians and other cultures, especially matriarchical societies. The reason for this was because these societies revered fertility and motherhood and did not attempt to control sex.

How is this POV, for instance? And this is obviously relevent to pedophilia, since it relates to adult-child sexual relationships. The exact phrasing may be a little off, but this is a case for re-wording, surely, not deleting--Neural 01:53, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

The Polynesian bit seems very POV to me. Aside from the clunky turn of phrase "the reason for this was because," it's an expression of an opinion with little to back it up. "Revered" is an emotional term (and what does matriarchy and motherhood have to do with paedophilia?) I say remove the second sentence completely.Indecisive 03:39, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

There's a very good reason why this happened, you realize. Many people against adult/minor sexual relations considered sex with adolescents/teens as "pedophilia". The issue had long been muddied by anti-pedophile activists and it melted into the general culture. Most pedophiles are into the age of 8-12, which would be considered today as "tweens". Some people consider the ages of 10-12 as adolescents, while the true definition of the word means period OF puberty, not before. However, as everyone knows, different kids develop at different times. Some start earlier than others. The body begins to go through growth spurts as early as 10 in some cases; sometimes even earlier. Thus, in this sense the attraction to the chronological age of the minor doesn't count as much as the physical maturity of him/her. And yes, it was accepted in times past. Instead of removing the text, what should have been done is making it NPOV as much as possible without removing history. --Rookiee 16:43, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't anyone care to look at the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, fourth edition, text revised, for mental disorders? Pedophilia is considered a mental disorder...instead of debating your opinion why don't you look up the criteria for yourself..DSM-IV TR, by the American Psychiatric Association 2000, it's in a library near you!

At one time, homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder - do you still think that's so? Wanttobesailing

well, you can also find books which say the Earth is flat. even if it's in a book, it's still pov.

the inclusion in dsm-iv is certainly not without controversy, either. 24ip | lolol 19:28, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

The DSM-IV is not without some controversy, that is true any clinician will agree to that. However, if you look at the website to which you referenced, the authors who are commentating, are not disagreeing to the fact that the people who have pedophilia are still people and need to be treated as such, both as humans and as far as their treatment is concerned. I agree that society often condemns people that have this disorder and think of them and sick and evil. However, there needs to be some argument that the disorder needs to be separated from the person. When I said that someone should look at the criteria, I was saying that in order to be diagnosed with pedophilia you have to meet certain criteria...whether or not you agree with the criteria is irrelevant, pedophilia is what it is and the definition comes from that book. The reference you referred to is saying just that, that people can have this disorder and it is not considered a good thing, but that they are humans as well. I would argue that pedophile or sexual predator are not good terms, because it argues that the person is that thing, rather than a person has a disorder, such as Joe is a pedophile rather than Joe has pedophilia. I'm not really sure why people are arguing this as a point of view...it sounds like you're wanting to say that having sex with a child is an okay thing to do? If that is the case, do it, get convicted, go to jail, and be treated. And I agree with the editor, there are some disorders that have some controversy with them, maybe because of how easy it is to be diagnosed, but for the most part the DSM-IV is a good version, has some flaws, but when the next version comes out there probably won't be too many differences. What you are arguing is a point of view, you think that pedophilia is or should be considered okay, if the editor has to take that out because they are trying to get an OBJECTIVE encyclopedia and not a SUBJECTIVE view point, then fine. I think it's harsh to comment on the editor's views and opinions just because you don't agree with what they have to take out...not only that but to degrade the editor and tell them they are discriminating and don't like pedophilia or is uncomfortable with it, all because they had to take out statments because it was not an objective view point. Shame on all of you who've said that...if you want to disagree with the criteria of pedophilia, fine, but call a spade a spade and realize that yes, it is a view point. That's all I have to say about this and I hope you all let it go.

Law Section

I removed the bulleted reference to pregnancy prevention which was listed as part of the list of reasons often stated for opposing prepubescent sexual activities with adults since prepubescent girls cannot get pregnant. It is really an argument for sometimes made in defense of statutory rape laws. --Cab88 09:53, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

My response to Cab88's editing out factual medical information that I posted in support of child sexual abuse law.

Response to above edits in Law section: This information I have provided is medically accurate and I will be happy to provide the links to expert medical literature as to why sex with prepubescent children is dangerous- your statements are misleading propaganda that provides barely a footnote to outdated commentary that is based in obsolete irrelevant science papers in zoology and not human sexual development and lacks any weight and backing in current scientific medical and legal research. You are presenting weak truths mixed with deliberate falsehoods and not giving an accurate encyclopedic reflection of the accepted scholarly reasons underlying why sex with prepubescent children is dangerous. This is hardly a neutral presentation, is entirely pro-pedophile POV, and gives not one accuraate statement as to why these laws against child sexual abuse exist and why sex with prepubescent children is illegal, and you really makes no truthful statement as to why sex with prepubescents is dangerous, but rather you laud POV pedophilic propaganda to promote the impression that perhaps these laws have no reasonable foundation. You are exposed!

it's considered unnatural for an adult to engage in sexual activity with a prepubescent because of the belief that they cannot reproduce. In actuality, pregnancy in a prepubescent child is possible and is considered a medical emergency. Prepubescent pregnancy however rare, is fatally dangerous, the immature underdeveloped female body is not capable to handle the competition between its own growth and development and providing proper support to the developing fetus, and always results in permanent physical damage or death to the prepubescent mother and likely to result in a stillbirth.Erupted ectopic pregnancy is the leading risk of death amongst pregnant prepubescent girls. The earliest recorded pregnancy in the medical literature, was in a 1 year old human infant. You are plainly wrong and heinously biased away from fact. Prepubescent girls can get pregnant and it is a medical emergency that endangers the life of the female prepubescent child. Erupted ectopic pregnancy is the leading cause of death due to pregnancy in prepubescent girls.

Oral sex with prepubescent children of either gender, can result in choking, difficulty breathing, emesis with burning and scarring of the esophagus, swelling of the epiglottis resulting in obstructed airway, infection of the nasopharynx, lung and or upper-respiratory infection,infection, permanent lung damage due to aspiration of ejaculate, bruising and/or permanent scarring or damage to the thyroid glands and lymphatic tissue, larynx, uvula, eustacion tubes, crushing of the trachea, tearing or bruising of the mouth, throat, or nasopharynx, anaphylactic reaction to ejaculate,loss of teeth, irritation to the gums and tongue, brain damage and/or death due to asphysiation, and/or nasal aspiration of ejaculate into the sinus with invasion into the cerebral spinal fluid due to attraction of spermatazoa to prostaglandins of the brain tissue.

Cab88

The way you are wording it seems to be as POV as before, to me. Your version is still saying which use of the word pedophilia is correct (and the older version was saying which use was incorrect). However, the definition of pedophilia is certainly relevant to who is using it, I suppose. It would be POV to say which use is correct and which use is incorrect. If we can cite a source which says it is wrong we can include that, but as their view and not ours. For example:

"Impact" is not a noun.

is POV.

On questioning, 80% of a usage panel agreed that impact should not be used as a noun [1]

is not. 24ip | lolol 20:21, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

The point I was trying to make was that all medical definitions of pedophilia I have seen clearly specify that the attraction be towards prepubscent children [for example: http://www.answers.com/pedophilia&r=67], thus describtion sexual attractions and activities by an adult towards an adolescent, who by definition is not prepubescent, does not appear accurate from a medical standpoint even if a common usage of the term. I think it is relevent to point this out. This can be explained without neccesarilly taking a possition from a general point of view as to whether the broader definition is appropriate or correct. The following links provide some medical info on the medical definition of pedophilia: [2], [3], [4], [5]

--Cab88 20:57, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Just because a term has a specific tenchnical meaning does not mean that common usage is incorrect, it just means that within the medical field they use the term more precisely. Usage determines definition. Perhaps we can say that the term is loosely used in common culture to refer to sex or desire for sex with underage persons. BTW, where do we get the fact about Brazil from? Is there a source to indicate that they accept pedophilia in Brazil? -Willmcw 22:33, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

My point was not for the article to judge whether this particuler broader definition of pedophilia is correct or not but simply to note that it differs from the common medical usage definition. I have added a sentance that I believe is NPOV which makes this point without judging the validity of broader definition. Hopefully this should satisfy all. --Cab88 15:30, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

That's good language. Thanks for adding it. Also, if we don't have a source for the usage of the word in Brazil I'm going to remove that sentence. -Willmcw 17:47, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Nepiophilia

• Some researchers have suggested a distinction between pedophilia and nepiophilia...

Which researchers? Could we have a reference please? -Willmcw 22:35, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Reverting

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This is a discussion regarding a proposal to revert the article to this version from the current version

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Please do not make a blanket revert to a much older version. In this instance, a number of important contributions, like cross links to other languages, were lost. Also, please discuss here your reasons for making that major change. Thanks, -Willmcw 06:21, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

The problems with cultural bias which have crept into the article seem to have originated with the addition of the reference on the top on August 21st to pedophilia being a "paraphilia." Paraphilia is a term straight out of the western schools of thought. It's actually quite a loaded term, to be honest. The former article (as of the last edit by LuxofTKGL on August 20th), is an article which takes an honest look at the cultural values of many societies around the world. It puts the issue into historical context. Would you like to embark on edit war over this issue? You infer in your comment here that a much earlier version is by definition, an invalid one. I would disagree. I think that if any fair minded person looks at both articles side by side and compares the two - he will assent to the notion that the august 20th version is the more NPOV version. I think the education of the public - which, of course, wikipedia is dedicated to - is very important. Quality of literary form, quality of communicative style, and neutral point of view are all vital on wikipedia. Please tell me exactly which crosslinks and other additions you believe are important, and we can try, together, to weave them into the context of the better framework of the previous article -- Rainbird 06:29, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

No, I am not going to re-justify the edits of all the editors who have contributed since August. Instead, please make the changes to the existing article, without disturbing the uncontested contributions such as the international cross-linking. Thank you. -Willmcw 07:51, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I understand your concern about the hard work which others have put into writing the article. In fact, I myself, have hesitated with contributing to wikipedia because of the knowledge that my work may be transitory, and could be eventually buried in a mountain of other people's edits and revisions. However, I believe the article over the past month and two and three, has been deliberately skewed by those with a passionate aversion to the concept of pedophilia. Why is the whole article put into the frame of reference with the idea of "paraphilia" - and the "icd-10"? The article in the form it is in, is beyond help, at this point. It's a sad thing to watch other writers' work be buried, but it is their responsibility to come back and work alongside of us in a rational and fair-minded manner, in the future. It is our responsibility to purvey a high quality article for the hundreds of people who will come by to read it, this week.

We have a very dangerous situation developing in the usa, towards those people who identify themselves with pedophilia. For instance, recently people on the sex offender registry for this offence, were denied access to public shelters during hurricane Katrina, which destroyed New Orleans in 2005. The sex offender registry itself spawns hate crimes, including murders against this group of individuals - a murder happened recently in Bellingham, Washington, usa. Pedophiles are becoming as hated as the jewish people were in central europe, in the early 1900s. I for one, do not assent to the idea that they have a disease, or that there is a rightful reason to hate them. The issue of pedophilia/teliophilia, as it is currently portrayed and thought about by mainstream western public opinion, closely parallels the attitudes decades ago towards homosexuality.

Wikipedia should not be a place where stigma and hateful diatribe is heaped on one social group or the other. You may not see this as clearly - because you're immersed in your society and it's opinions - and you can't see the forest for the trees. But it is so important to bring neutrality to the article, and bring in a balanced mixture of other cultural contexts. Pedophilia is not child molestation. Thought is not action. Also, I hope that you've read the article on historical pederasty. It's quite informative. Cultural attitudes, traditions, and rituals come and go and change. There was a day and age in the usa where masturbation was deemed as sinful as pedophilia/teliophilia, is today. We cannot be judging these issues through the lens of current culture-specific opinion. I am going to revert this article to that August 20th version, and I will diligently hunt for meritworthy additions that should be included - which have been added over the course of the months since august. If I don't see one or two, someone who is as conscientious as yourself has to insert these things. I will wait, however, another 24 hours to hear your response, first - so that we can go forward with this project hand in hand, in agreement as to the literary merits and factual accuracy of the article we are seeking to write. -- Rainbird 08:47, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

It's too bad if pedophiles are unfairly targeted for persecution, but it is not our job, as Wikipedia editors, to fix that. We're here to write the world's encyclopedia, not to right the world's wrongs. If pedophiles are stigmatized then we need to report that, not make apologies for them. No, please do not revert. Make the changes to the existing version, preferably a little at a time. Literary quality is nice, but this is an encyclopedia, not literature. The most important qualities are accuracy and neutrality. -Willmcw 17:38, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, I suppose we are at an impasse here, Willmcw. We both seem to have the best interests of the quality of the article at heart, but seem to have different visions for what the best text is, for it.

My point above was that a western cultural bias is not NPOV. Looking over edits today, I see that only perhaps two or three people have been adamantly wanting to delete the sections of the article which give global, historical and cultural context - pir and haham hanuka, and also a person with ip address 66.32.214.183. I consider this vandalism.

These individuals have added very little if anything to the article, themselves. Pir insists in his comment that in promoting a western cultural bias - he is promoting a NPOV standpoint. Of course, that's an assertion that people from english speaking countries will perhaps readily believe, because they are immersed within their culture and it's perspectives.

Haham Hanuka marks one major deletion as a quote unquote minor revision, hoping perhaps that his edit won't be noticed.

I would like to see the article reverted to where it does not assert in any way that pedophilia should be looked at as a disease of some sort.

Surely we can come to some sort of consensus here about what is best for the encyclopedia. I agree that wikipedia is not to be a forum for activism and POV kinds of assertions within the articles. However, the article as it stood on august 20th was not about these things - it was fleshed out with cultural geography - people had added paragraphs who were knowledgeable about how pedophilia has been thought of in other societies and over the course of history. Those are scholarly addendums. -- Rainbird 18:33, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

If there are things in the current version that you don't like then fix those specific things. Do not revert several months of editing. -Willmcw 00:40, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Aside from the language links which you mentioned I only see about three or four big edits... Rookiee has added a lot just recently - in his new section "pedosexual" The other two large edits were pir's deletions. These are the only edits which he has made to this article in the entire year of 2005, to date. He has nothing to add to the article, he only wants to make it a POV piece - reflecting western cultural bias. There are lots of minor changes - a few writers have gone around changing around the tenor of single phrases by adding a word or taking out a word... The changes they have made between those two revisions are just gross. They want to nurse hatred and stigma towards the group. If you want to say "This group suffers stigma" - go ahead. But don't allow people to write on these pages - "The prejudice against this group reflects who they are - and it's backed up by a scientific theory" Don't defend people who write like this. As for reverting the article, don't worry about me doing that. Until there's a consensus which will allow it - there is no point. It would just end up being a volley back and forth, nothing would be gained. At any rate, I don't think that there's anything more to be gained by debating this issue with you. I should step aside and let some other people voice their opinions.-- Rainbird 01:06, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Would you mind giving an example of what bias you're talking about? I don't see the current version of the article making any assertions that "the prejudice against this group reflects who they are - and it's backed up by a scientific theory." It seems neutral enough to me, except the new "Pedosexuality" section which seems to have some inaccuracy.. 24ip | lolol 01:36, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't see what is point-of-view about the term "paraphilia." According to our own wiki page, "Paraphilia is a mental health term [...] used to indicate sexual arousal in response to sexual objects or situations which may interfere with the capacity for reciprocal affectionate sexual activity." 24ip | lolol 01:39, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I would agree with 24. Improve the current version is probably your best bet. If you really feel a reversal is the best way, use your talk page or here to take the revert you want to use and incorporate the new content and when done, present it here. It'll be reviewed and if we feel it doesn't lose anything, we will agree to completing replacing the current version with the new version (at least I will) Nil Einne 19:58, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

That's an interesting idea, Nil Einne. I might just do that. I'm rather new to wikipedia, so I have to become familiar with the social traditions of the group. In response to 24ip - I think I've answered your questions already; and I've already spoken quite a bit on this page. I think it's time to sit back and listen to others. -- Rainbird 20:27, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Can you give individual examples of inserted pov? 24ip | lolol 21:53, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Situational offenders?

The situation offenders page, linked from here says

"This is common in sex crimes; see situational sexual behavior. One example involves otherwise law-abidding citizens of developed nations, where strict laws prohibit child molestation who travel to Third World countries as child sex tourists, where extreme poverty, lack of infrastructure and lack of police affords them the opportunity to practice child molestion with virtual impunity. This ties in with the very high rate of child prostitution in the developing world."

I'm not an expert but are child sex tourists really usually considered situation sex offenders? I'm not saying they necessarily pedophiles but from the word and from what I could gather from the rather short explaination it sounds to me as if someone who actively seeks out to violate the law and have sex with children couldn't really be classes as a situational offender. Someone who went as a normal sex tourist and decided to take up the offer of a child prostitute when offered or even a normal tourists who decided so would probably be a situational offender but a child sex tourist? 17:36, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Risks

I could suggest some additions and modification to the risks part. In terms of social aspects, one thing that seems to be missing is a mention that sex with a child may be very harmful due to current cultural and social norms in many countries, especially when it involves incest. I don't know how to explain this but basically what I'm saying is I think there is a lot of people who say it will be harmful to the kid because even if it is a 'loving', tender, mutually agreed etc etc act the child will often end up confused, scared, and possibly with some sort of psyhological problems because they're unable to come to terms with what they've done and what it says about the person they were involved with given current societal and culture attitudes. Indeed I have seen this point made by paedophiles before, that you should not have sex with children currently even tho they believe in an ideal world you should. Also, what about the oft mentioned although heavily disputed point that having sex while a kid may make it more likely or even according to some very likely that the kid will then grown up to feel attracted to kids. Of course, this is a big risk, if true, given current societal norms and laws. But even without these societal norms and laws, you might argue that being attracted to kids is a big disadvantage because it's always going to be harder to find a kid to have a relationship with and there is always a bigger risk you may harm the kid in some way and you also will have big probs maintaining a longterm relationship assuming you only ever feel attracted to kids and for other obvious reasons. Obviously all the part about societal norms doesn't really belong in the law part where we talk about kids IMHO but I feel it should be included somewhere. Nil Einne 19:52, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Also in terms of medical risks in the law section, this needs reworking. I would assume anal intercourse with males and females children has a high risk or tearing and injure as well. But the two current risks mentioned are only referring to risks with vaginal intercourse. Also, if the risk with pap smears and cervical cancer is not believed to be a risk if condoms are use? To my knowledge there is no specific risk for oral intercourse or for a kid penetrating an adult. Or for most other types of non penetrative sexual contact. Perhaps this point should be made. Since clearly if you're going to argue for the laws for medical reasons it doesn't really make sense to claim you have to have to have a complete ban on sexual contact when it's only certain activities that are risky. However besides specific risks, perhaps we should also mention generic risks such as STDs? This is significantly related to the social aspect and the part about pap smears issue, since if children can't appreciate the risks and implications of having sex, they clearly can't be expected to make any sort of decision about the use of protection. It's up to the adults to make the right decision here. And I suppose you could argue that it justifies laws against sex because your putting the kids at quite a risk since it will be difficult and likely already to late to punish adults for making the 'wrong' decision. Of course, this argument kinds of falls flat since again, the counter argument is you could just make it compulsary to use protection which is easier to set up and enforce (since you just teach kids its wrong for adults to ever have sex without protection, teach them about protection and punish any adults who manage and perhaps even try to violate this if it can be proven). Of course, in all these cases the counter argument for justification is that even tho you could just legislate against certain kinds of sexual acts and against not using protection and it may be seem like a fairly straightfoward to implement and teach kids, in practice it'll be much harder then straightforward banning sex. Nil Einne 19:52, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Pedophilia

Since the technical psychological def of pedophilia is someone who is exclusively sexually attracted to prepubscent children is there a word for someone who is sexually attracted to people of all age groups including prepubscent and adults (and adolsecents of course)? What about someone who is attracted to adolescents (especially young adolescents e.g. 10-14) either exclusively, or adults+adolsecents or prepubsecent children+adolsecents? Nil Einne 20:13, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

The attraction does not have to be exclusively to prepubescent children, it can be primarily as well, i.e. mainly attracted to prepubescents but also to (an)other age group(s). If they are attracted to children, but not primarily, their attractions can still be considered pedophilic, however. Someone attracted to adolescents primarily or exclusively would be classified as an ephebophile (though the ages 10-12 are typically considered in the pedophilic range). There isn't any specific word for people who like children and adolescents equally (except maybe chronophile). 24ip | lolol 21:44, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I've heard the term "Omniphile" tossed around from time to time. Sometimes in both good and bad connotation. Most recently I remember hearing it in someone's criticism of the "Mr X" whom Alfred Kinsey received most of his data on child sexuality from back during his interviews. The guy was into all ages, and as portrayed in the movie, was seen to be somewhat of a kook. Personally, I think this issue of labelling people to sexual "castes" is an outdated idea and will result in an absolute multitude of facetted terminology for every aspect of sexuality, which as humans go, is about as diverse as fingerprints. Kinsey was absolutely correct; "Everyone's different." --Rookiee 16:28, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Proposition for a restructuring of pedophilia, child abuse, psychology, law, terminology, etc

I've put a new discussion on the Talk:Child_sexual_abuse page regarding my proposition and the reasons behind it.

Illustration

I think that this Image:Alice Liddell 2.jpg [6] (by Lewis Carroll) may be a good illustration to this article. --Haham hanuka 13:45, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Paedophilia vs Statutory Rape

I noticed that there is nothing in the article about statutory rape, which is often incorrectly reported in the media as paedophilia. I think that a subsection devoted to discussing statutory rape within this article is warranted.

Whilst the age of consent varies from country to country, it is usually no more than 18 years of age (sometimes it is 17, 16, or even as young as 12, or sometimes even there are no boundaries) and often there is a stipulation that under that age is okay provided that there is a certain age difference (e.g. no more than 2 years).

Anyway, the thing is that the media is regularly running stories calling such-and-such a paedophile because they had sex with someone below the age of consent, when the person that they had consentual sex with was actually physically mature (for example, age 15). A case in point was an article that appeared in my local newspaper 2 years ago, whereby a man arranged for a 15 year old girl to travel interstate to see him, having met her over the internet. The girl was not a real person - she was actually a number of police officers. But the newspaper printed his photograph and name on the front page (he was a public figure) stating that he was a paedophile. I would assert that he was not. The fact that she was 15 is irrelevant if she is sexually mature. Paedophilia refers to pre-pubescent people, not to people who have gone through puberty at a young age and are already sexually developed.

Surveys are taken annually in most western countries about the average age for boys and girls to lose their virginity. The typical average age is between 14 and 16 1/2 years. Yet the average age of consent for these countries is between 16 and 18. In other words, 50% or more people have at some stage in their lives engaged in statutory rape. Thus, if they had all been prosecuted, popular media would be able to say that anything up to 50% of the world's population are paedophiles, using the legal definition referencing statutory rape laws.

Such statements are plainly inaccurate, but I feel that they must be included in this article, to demonstrate popular confusions as to what paedophilia is.

On a personal note, one of my friends at university, who was 19 years old at the time, was a self-confessed paedophile, who delighted in looking at girls of the age of 8-12 (typically). One of his catch-phrases was "she'll look good in a few years time". He was eventually banned from the university for looking at child pornography. The guy eventually had consentual sex with a 14 year old girl, who lost her virginity to him. He told us that he thought that she was a little old. He was, without question, a paedophile, yet he did not ever rape anyone. There is a difference.

From what I have read (and the documentaries that I have seen on the topic), most child sex offences are committed by people who are not sexually attracted to children (in other words, they are not paedophils). Apparently rape is usually a control issue, and people who rape children are really no different to the people who rape adults - be they raping men, women, or in a gang rape scenario. There is some dispute about that, but that is my understanding of things. Apparently a few paedophiles have raped children, but the majority of paedophiles never have. This is my understanding of it. However, my understanding is that most paedophiles will at some stage view child pornography, which in itself is a crime.

Anyway, I thought that this should be included in the article, but I don't know how to fit it in. As this is a controversial topic, I will wait for consensus, and maybe even suggest for someone else to write it. This article scared me a little and I'm not game to add anything! :) 203.122.225.241 23:07, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Very good point. Too often is 'rape' included under the term 'paedophilia' without any thought having been given to the issue. Are we to believe that all who are attracted to adult women will go out and rape adult women? Of course not. The media is a dangerous player in spreading this stereotype; one would have to be both a paedophile and rapist to conform to the commonly-held image of a 'paedophile'. 81.77.190.199 15:48, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Links to forums

I removed a set of external links to forums promoting pedophilia. Our task here is to describe to phenomenon in a neutral fashion, not to promote it. There is no indication that these forums are even notable promoters, like NAMBLA is. -Willmcw 07:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

These forums provide valuable insight into pedophilia of utmost use to any serious person researching pedophilia or 'childlove.' It is in no way a "promotion," nor is linking them straying from our NPOV policy. 24.224.153.40 17:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Can you give an example of the type of material that readers would find that would give them a valuable insight into pedophilia? The only reason we have external links is to provide "meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as textbooks or reviews". I note also that most of these same links are also at Childlove. having them in both articles seems redundant. -Willmcw 18:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, can you explain how these websites are organizations that are advocate pedophilia? Sitting around chatting and sharing dirty stories is not advocating. -Willmcw 19:30, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

If someone is interested in learning about something, it's absolutely silly to sit around idly reading scholarly discussion and medical statistics without actually examing their subject of scrutinisation. Though this isn't at all always possible, the Internet is a goldmine for anyone interested in investigating otherwise secretive pedophiles; indeed, observing pedophiles "chatting and sharing dirty stories" is a wonderful way to learn who they are.

On your second question, the Internet, and more specifically, forums like these, are the source of the 'childlove movement.' Ideas for the aims of the 'childlove movement' were first put forth on Usenet and places like those linked. 24.224.153.40 23:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Scholars who want to investigate the what pedophiles think can find the forums on their own. This seciton is devoted to organizations (not forums) that advocate for acceptance of pedophiles. You have not convinced me that these forums advocate for anything, or that they provide a meaningful, relevant content. We hardly allow fan forums of movie stars, and these seem of even less value. They certainly are not appropriate in this section. -Willmcw 00:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

The origins of pedophile advocacy are these forums. Hella relevant to pedophilia advocacy, if you ask me. And good God, these forums are useful to people who want to research pedophilia, I haven't a clue why you believe they shouldn't be in the article. tkGL and Butterfly Kisses are not solely forums. 24.224.153.40 01:41, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, the forums could easily be used to promote paedophilia, and to exchange information on child molestation. Let's not encourage this.

On an unrelated note, what is the point of the picture? It looks like it's just a picture of a teacher and his pupil. Why is this relevant at all to paedophilia. DJ Clayworth 01:45, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Just so you are clearly warned, anon, that was your third revert. DJ Clayworth 01:47, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm aware it was my third revert, user. The forums are not and could not be used to "exchange information on child molestion," as this is not legally tolerated, nor would it be tolerated by the site administrators as it is contrary to the spirit of 'childlove.' Even if linking them was somehow encouraging the creation of an underground kiddiefucking network, that is not within the concern of an NPOV encyclopedia. 24.224.153.40 01:58, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I didn't read them but I saw that the "Girlchat" site hosts what appear to be pornographic stories involving young girls. It certainly is not the purpose of an NPOV encyclopedia to provide links to child pornography. If the sites do not provide information on sex with children, tehn what do they provide, besides porn? I just don't see any need for these external links. -Willmcw 02:48, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't visit GirlChat, but what you said here surprised me. Fortunately, it seems you either made it up or just misunderstood something. From the GirlChat FAQ:

Can I post pictures/fiction?

NO! Do not even think about using GirlChat as a place for exchanging pictures, nor to post fictional writing. In different localities different materials are considered illegal. For instance a fictional story involving children while not illegal under federal law in the US, is illegal under federal law in Canada. Therefore we must ban all such material. This restriction is not because GirlChat is pro-censorship, even the subject of child pornography elicits a range of opinion here. It is because our support role is too valuable to be compromised by the kind of attention that even a hint of pornography would bring. The only pictures allowed inside posts are our signature pictures associated with the user authentication. The only justifiable reason for posting a link to a picture is if it is genuinely important to the content of your post and is legal in the UK, Canada and the US.

Now that I've had a look at GirlChat again, I don't know how you can miss the advocacy on these sites. One of the very first posts on the page, November 28th: http://www.annabelleigh.net/messages/334162.htm

Butterfly Kisses has a forum and section of their website completely dedicated to 'childlove' advocacy, in fact.. 24.224.153.40 17:48, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

A couple of postings do not make these forums into organizations that advocate for pedophilia. NAMBLA is an organization. BoyChat is just a forum. Further, most of these websites also have links in Childlove. How many different places on Wikipedia do we need to link to them? If Childlove and Pedophilia are separate concepts why are they in both places? Do they advocate childlove or pedophilia? -Willmcw 07:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

A Google search of BoyChat for the word "pedophilia" brings up only six hits.[7] annabelleigh gets just 16 hits.[8] How do these site advocate for pedophilia if they don't even use the term? They appear to be pedophilic websites, not pedophilia advocacy organizations. If we want to create a web directory of pedophilic websites then we should label them correctly.

Furthermore, the sentiment in the GirlChat rule that you posted may sound stern, as does this one:

• GirlChat strictly prohibits posting any pictures..., drawings, or artwork of the nude human form ( any age ), ... in your post, link, or URL leading to material that portrays, depicts or describes someone under the age of 18....[9]

However the enforcement seems spotty. [10][11]. Also a link to this website.[12][13]. -Willmcw 07:52, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

The Google results are clearly flawed. Google only appears to spidering one or two messages ever posted there (probably from other sites linking in). Google also only returns two hits for "girllover," even though that word is very prolific there.

I do not know who told you that 'childlove' and pedophilia are seperate concepts, but that's not right. 'Childlove' is just a substitute used by people to afraid to call pedophilia pedophilia. All the "little kids turn me on but I'm not a pedophile!!" nonsense some pedophiles resort to is silly.

None of the "spotty" links you posted actually violate any rules, except maybe the link to "newstar-cherry.com," which is legal anyway.

Nobody is saying these are organizations.

What justification do you have for simply removing the links? 24.224.153.40 19:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I still see no advocacy. If Childlove and pedophilia are the same thing then lets merge the articles. -Willmcw 23:01, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I'll reply when I'm finished reading "Order of the Phoenix," which will probably be a few days. "Childlover" can go in the advocacy section along with the pedosexual header.

You'll have Wikipedia all to yourself.. 24.224.153.40 23:16, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Disagree with the merger. I think the term Childlover deserves separate treatment, if only as the euphemising term preferred by the movement. DJ Clayworth 00:57, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

ASFAR

I deleted the link to asfar.org. Americans for a Society Free from Age Restrictions is a general youth rights organization, not a pedophile organization. Its main page is not relevant to this article. Woty

Loli?

Someone deleted the bit on lolicon that was here before, apparently because it was relevant to ephebophilia and not pedophilia... but most of the girls in lolicon are 6-11. May it go back? 24.224.153.40 01:59, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Picture

I asked a while back what the relevance of the picture was, and I didn't get an answer. Any suggestions before I remove it? DJ Clayworth 01:00, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I've scratched my head looking at it and wondering why it was there. If we need a picture, I'm sure we can find something better. In the mean time, go ahead and remove it. -Willmcw 02:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I have to say it's hard to come up with an idea of a picture that is tasteful, relevant and legal. Maybe we have a broken teddy bear somewhere? That's the sort of thing the meainstream media seem to use. DJ Clayworth 17:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

One option, Image:Rembrandt - Ganymede.jpg, might be considered to have too strong a POV. Anyway, the article doesn't really need an illustration. -Willmcw 20:27, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Come again? What does a falcon nipping some kid and a broken teddy have to do with pedophilia? (Or , err, you wouldn't happen to have just been trying to provoke some reaction with an inane comment like that.. right, Willmcw?)

The Alice Liddel picture is a little.. weird there, in my opinion.. or at least a better caption would be nice.. 24.224.153.40 02:12, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed it would seem to indicate that Wikipedia is saying that Lewis Carroll was a pedophile. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 11:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely. If I was Lewis Carrol I would consider sueing. DJ Clayworth 14:21, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, if you were Lewis Carroll, you'd be dead. 24.224.153.40 02:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Hard to believe that anything on this article could possibly be funny. I forgot to mention that the picture really bothered me so I removed it. Is there really any need for a picture at all. I have to agree with DJ Clayworth. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 05:06, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I suppose I agree with the removal of the picture, especially since it implies Alice was the object of a pedophile's love/lust, a disputed point, but I'm afraid "it bothered me" is in no way a reason to remove anything (wp:npov). Liddell's picture here does not help illustrate the article, however. 24.224.153.40 21:39, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

It bothered me that it appears to claim that Wikipedia is saying that Lewis Carroll was a pedophile which is POV. I noted that above. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 23:43, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Can We Agree On This

There has to be an acknowledgement that some individuals 9however misguided or mentally ill we may believe them to be) genuinely do not believe that there is anything wrong with sexual activity between adults and children. If this is to be an encyclopaedia, we cannot editorialise like this. The facts regarding this subject in culture, law and history are the most important thing - and sometimes the facts can be unpleasant.

I agree that this is a possibility. - Rudykog 17:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

True. Some people don't believe that murder is wrong, or genocide. DJ Clayworth 18:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Someone's mentally ill because they do not share your opinion? 24.224.153.40 18:22, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

In this statement:Courting a teenager below the age of consent is legal in some jurisdictions, especially when the individual is above the marriageable age. what do we mean by 'courting' exactly? Do we mean a lead-up to sex, or a lead-up to marriage? DJ Clayworth 18:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not really good at editing, but I was thinking some useful information if anyone wants to go fishing for it is: the profile of the abuser. I've read some books on child abuse and why some adults are attracted to children and some of the reasons citing by child abusers themselves were: #Not preferring adult/adult sex because of the risk of rejection. An adult is is an EQUAL who is not easily manipulated. Can say "no" easily and/or end the relationship. A child can be bribed easily with "candy", "toes", and "promises of friendship".

1. Many child molesters feel like they're "children trapped in adult bodies". They often act like children and feel as if they can only really be themselves in the presence of children. (Example: Michael Jackson)
2. Child molesters usually target emotionally needy children who are "loners", have self-esteem issues, and are very quiet socially.
3. They frequently use some kind of position of authority: coach, teacher, or priest, ect.. Where children are obligated to respect their authority. One tactic they use to escape detection is to target ONLY ONE CHILD to the exclusion of the rest, say on a basketball team, so that if the abused child blows the whistle the other "non-abused" children will come to their coaches' defense. This is also done in the family" "a father of five abusing only the youngest". The other siblings will vehemently defend their father if the youngest reports because of the common myth that "if he'd done it to you, he would have done it to me too!"
4. Once having identified the often "lonely child", the molester begins the process of gaining the childs trust. The process of gaining a child's trust in psychology is called "grooming". The molester will identify the insecurities of the child and then offer to meet those needs in exchange for deeper and deeper levels of secrecy. (The frog in the water scenerio).
5. According to statistical research at this time, nearly all child molesters are men. This is regardless of wether the victim is a boy or a girl.
6. The child molester is very rarely a stranger. He is almost always a relative (incest) or a friend of the family. He takes advantage of the child's natural fear/respect of adults to convince the child that there is nothing wrong with sexual touching.
7. The child molester will often take advantage of a child's natural sexual curiosity. "Do you know was a ***** looks like?" "Do you want to see?". This is also done in the form of "sexual games". "If you get an answer wrong you have to take off your shirt. If I get an answer wrong I have to take off my shirt".
8. 1/3 of all children report having been molested as children. Many researchers, police officers believe the actually amount is more like 1/2 because of lack of reporting.
9. The child is often frightened to tell someone about the abuse, not just because of fear of physical harm. But also because their "trusted adult" who has become their "friend" will have to go to jail. They also are afraid they won't be believed. (This is an extremely reasonable fear due to the molester almost always either being a relative, a trusted family friend, and/or in a position of great respect: teacher, priest."
10. Overwhelming scientific evidence, both from liberal and conservative sources, provide a strong link of any form of "child-adult sex" with borderline personality disordorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, bi-polar, and adult sexual dysfunction along with many others.

Hope that helps =) (unsigned user:24.20.254.93)

Much of this is not relevant to pedophilia, but rather child sexual abuse. 24.224.153.40 20:39, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I am the only one who finds it enraging that pedophiles are attempting to use a neutral encyclopedia to promote thier grotesque viewpoints? The vast majority of humanity agrees that sex with children is wrong, hence why it is against laws in countries across the world. It is not a form of oppression, or stereotyping or anything else, it is very simply the innate desire in human beings to try and protect their children from harm. And despite whatever these pedophile advocates will say to justify themselves, their manipulation and desire to engage in sexual relations with children, as well as the act itself, is most definately harmful. Please, some administrators must take a strong stand on this. Pedophilia is wrong. Please let these encyclopedia pages reflect that! Not the perverse opinions of a small but highly organized minority. (unsigned User:Rich Karpusiewicz)

WP:NPOV is your friend. No such opinion will be reflected by this article as long as there are rational Wikipedians to stop it. 24.224.153.40 18:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

"Rational Wikipedians?" Earlier you said: "The forums are not and could not be used to "exchange information on child molestion," as this is not legally tolerated, nor would it be tolerated by the site administrators as it is contrary to the spirit of 'childlove.' Even if linking them was somehow encouraging the creation of an underground kiddiefucking network, that is not within the concern of an NPOV encyclopedia." I can't see how linking to forums to learn more about pedophiles and put you into direct contact with them is not promotion, nor how that is not the concern of a scholarly encyclopedia. Academic journals and databases do not typically present users with the option of going to talk with potentially criminal elements about topics which are clearly in the realm of the illegal. True pedophile researchers can do their research without a direct link from Wikipedia.

Whoa, that was a bizarre subject change.

1. Pedophilia is not "clearly in the realms of the illegal"
2. The best way to learn about something does not usually involve distancing yourself from your subject of study and never actually interacting with it. These forums are for discussions between pedophiles, so they're also less prone to lie. Observe and learn.
3. Providing external links useful for anyone studying pedophilia is indeed within the 'concern' of an NPOV encyclopedia. 24.224.153.40 19:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Recent edits

I made a few edits to the article. Namely, I removed a couple of "counterarguments" in the "Law" section, as these are points about the ideas behind laws, not a section to carry out an argument. I would have incorporated the "but bonobos do it" information elsewhere in the article, probably under Cultural norms, if the bonobo article said anything of the sort (it references "incest," not "pedophila"). 66.241.95.9 20:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

The "young girls are often more disposed to tearing blah blah blah" part is needed to differentiate the comment from general criticism of sex (as vaginal tearing is possible no matter the age). 24.224.153.40 21:05, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Response to above edits in Law section: This information I have provided is medically accurate and I will be happy to provide the links to expert medical literature as to why sex with prepubescent children is dangerous- your statements are misleading propaganda that provides barely a footnote to outdated commentary that is based in obsolete irrelevant science papers in zoology and not human sexual development and lacks any weight and backing in current scientific medical and legal research. You are presenting weak truths mixed with deliberate falsehoods and not giving an accurate encyclopedic reflection of the accepted scholarly reasons underlying why sex with prepubescent children is dangerous. This is hardly a neutral presentation, is entirely pro-pedophile POV, and gives not one accuraate statement as to why these laws against child sexual abuse exist and why sex with prepubescent children is illegal, and you really makes no truthful statement as to why sex with prepubescents is dangerous, but rather you laud POV pedophilic propaganda to promote the impression that perhaps these laws have no reasonable foundation. You are exposed!

• it's considered unnatural for an adult to engage in sexual activity with a prepubescent because of the belief that they cannot reproduce. In actuality, pregnancy in a prepubescent child is possible and is considered a medical emergency. Prepubescent pregnancy however rare, is fatally dangerous, the immature underdeveloped female body is not capable to handle the competition between its own growth and development and providing proper support to the developing fetus, and always results in permanent physical damage or death to the prepubescent mother and likely to result in a stillbirth.Erupted ectopic pregnancy is the leading risk of death amongst pregnant prepubescent girls. The earliest recorded pregnancy in the medical literature, was in a 1 year old human infant. You are plainly wrong and heinously biased away from fact.

I'm afraid I don't have a clue who you're exposing: not me, certainly, since I didn't write it in the first place; but yes, please provide your citations and then it can be worked into the article. Thanks. 24.224.153.40 21:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

The above statements seem to say that pregnancy in a young child is fatal, or would be fatal if not terminated early. There should be some evidence given. Facts contradict these statements - Here's one relevant topic: world's youngest mother. EthanL 04:56, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

In any case, this material (particularly the details) should probably be in Pregnancy rather than here. The Land 11:44, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Sexual "deviancy" in child molesters

Our article currently quotes one study ("2-10% of child molesters are pedophiles") and cites it as a fact. The many studies done on child molesters, however, reveal more diverse results. In my opinion we should include the results of various studies, and cite them as just that, the results of various studies. I tried to edit it like this and failed. If someone else could try:

• Quinsey, Chaplin, & Carrigin (1979)
• Quinsey, Steinmen, Bergersen, & Holmes (1975)
• Avery-Clark & Laws (1984)
• Abel, Becker, Murphy, & Flanagan (1981)
• Marshall et al. (1988, 1986)
• Marshall, Barbaree, & Christopher (1986)
• Barbaree & Marshall (1989)
• Freund (1981) and etc.

Diversity is such that Barbaree & Marshall reported statistics of 48% pedophiles for extrafamilial and 28% pedophiles for interfamilial child sexual abuse. 2-10 are problably the lowest numbers. 24.224.153.40 00:15, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Attention to this article on the Internet

Forgive me if this seems somewhat irrelevant, as I'm new to this, but this page seems to be negatively reflecting on Wikipedia, as is shown by this. It seem like this page should be cleaned up to remove the pro-pedophile bias that is still apparent.

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs changing, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to...) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use out the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. Paroxysm 18:48, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Example, the following points are awfully weakly stated and look rather pro-pedophile, perhaps as much for what they leave out as for what they state:

   * children are seen as unable to understand the putative physical, emotional, and social consequences of sexual acts and are therefore seen as unable to give informed consent;
   * sexual acts can, like all relationships, involve coercion and abuse of power, which can break bonds of trust and apparently cause emotional harm;
   * belief that children have little or no interest in, or desire for sexual pleasure, and thus would not naturally seek it or agree to such activity without influence or coercion;
   * it is often considered unnatural for an adult to engage in sexual activity with a prepubescent because they are unable to reproduce;
   * most media depicts sexual activity as harmful to children or morally wrong; and
   * belief that individuals should abstain from sex until marriage (or a fixation on virginity in females), paired with legal prevention of marriage below a certain age.

I think a cleanup would have to work on the apparent bias of these points. --213.80.84.98 20:50, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

This is a wiki. Click the edit button. Say more. It's really that simple. // paroxysm (n) 21:04, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

"Parents for the Online Safety of Children?"

I've been looking into this silly "wikipedophilia" thing today, and I haven't found very much. This lack of results is interesting in itself. The source of these charges comes from the press release from "Parents for the Online Safety of Children," a group allegedly founded in 1997 by “an organization of concerned citizens.” A Google search for the name of this group reveals absolutely no results whatsoever, except for several references to their press release attacking Wikipedia; apparently this organization has never had any mention in any Web site, news service, Usenet newsgroup, or any mention anywhere before now. The sudden appearance of this group and its claims of “pedophiles” on Wikipedia suggests two possibilities: 1) The press release may be fake, one of many Internet-based trolls; or 2) it is a result of a recent edit war here. --Modemac 21:44, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's something interesting: a blogger did some detective work and put two and two together to come up with a [http://www.ridingsun.com/posts/1134805044.shtml possible reason for the bogus "wiki pedophile" press release. It might (emphasis on might) be some petty revenge for the QuakeAID scandal early this year that was exposed to the public, thanks to Wikipedia! --Modemac 03:07, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

The 'press release' is from baou.com, which is a group of trolls posing as a news organisation. See QuakeAID The Land 10:58, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Childlove movement

Since advocacy for pedophilia is the goal of the childlove movement, and since the content was well-covered there, I've moved the majority of the "Advocacy" section from here to there. The material here just duplicated what was already there. -Willmcw 21:54, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Removal and reorganization

I recently removed, reorganized and condensed parts of this article. My goals were to: 1. Remove unnecessary repetition. 2. Focus the article on the medical definition of pedophilia.

The reasons for the taboo illegality of child sex should probably be distributed amoung other articles where it can be refocused on that particular topic. The medical reasons against child sex should probably be put in a medical article about the victims of sexual abuse. --Gbleem 17:01, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Will you be doing those follow-on tasks? -Willmcw 18:22, 22 December 2005 (UTC)