Talk:Mythology/Archive 1

Archives
7 October 2005

Lead section

I have changed the definition of mythology in the lead section. My sources are as follows:

According to the Encyclopædia Britannica article Mythology:

In the distant past, however, before any sciences existed, the beginnings of the world and of society were explained by mythology. /…/ How comprehensive a developed mythology could become was given written expression in Greece by Hesiod. [1]

According to the MSN Encarta article Mythology:

Mythology, the body of myths of a particular culture, and the study and interpretation of such myths. /…/ The term mythology might include all traditional tales, from the creation stories of ancient Egypt to the sagas of Icelandic literature to the American folktale of Paul Bunyan. [2]

According to H. R. Ellis Davidson in Gods and Myths of Northern Europe:

A mythology is the comment of one particular age or civilization on the mysteries of human existence and human mind …

According to the American Heritage Dictionary:

Mythology 1. a. A body or collection of myths belonging to a people and addressing their origin, history, deities, ancestors, and heroes. b. A body of myths associated with an event, individual, or institution: "A new mythology, essential to the . . . American funeral rite, has grown up" (Jessica Mitford). 2. The field of scholarship dealing with the systematic collection and study of myths. [3]

According to the Merriam-Webster:

Mythology: 1 : an allegorical narrative 2 : a body of myths : as a : the myths dealing with the gods, demigods, and legendary heroes of a particular people b : mythos 2 <cold war mythology> 3 : a branch of knowledge that deals with myth [4]

--Salleman 08:59, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, good. I approve wholeheartedly of this change. elvenscout742 23:33, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Statement about "creation myth"

One notable type is the creation myth, which describes how that culture believes the universe was created.

I have removed this statement from the article and reassembled the conjoining segment accordingly. This is atheist bigotry, and might offend those who hold their religious beliefs to be of a higher sacredness than mere "myth." Salva 04:56, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I am reverting... this is neither atheistic nor bigotry, and I can;t for the life of me understand how you could think so, unless perhaps you assumed that the word myth means false, in which case you should read the article to get a better understanding of the word as it's being used. DreamGuy 06:07, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Spirituality template

DreamGuy and 172.167.18.52 deleted Template:Spirituality with virtually the same derogatory comment (same person)? Do any other users have any substantive objections or support for this template here? — Richard_RDF^talk 01:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Almost definitely the same person - if one examines 172.167.18.52's edit history his few history comments are directly akin to DreamGuy's. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he just forgot to log in (rather than using a sock puppet), but I'm still certain it was him. I'd support this template being put in here, if everyone else (except one) does. elvenscout742 08:16, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Wasn't a question of forgetting to log on, it was that Wikipedia was having technical problems at that time and logging me out by itself constantly. Wouldn't be a question of sockpuppeting anyway as it wasn't trying to appear to be anyone else. But then leave it to elvenscout to try to sneak in a hint of wrongdoing when none exists... You lost your arbitration case, so give it a rest already.

This template is a god-awful mess... it lists anything and everything but the kitchen sink and some all-encompassing umbella term of "spirituality". It's like looking at the bottom of a page on Dogs and seeing a template listing "things with fur" that includes rats and coats and mold and stuffed animals. Templates are supposed to be used for closely-related topics, not a mish mash of whatever someone decides to throw together in one huge long list.

Furthermore, I am obviously not the only one who thought the template was horrible, as people on other articles who didn't want to see it put it up for deletion, and there are many, many responses from people who want to see it kicked off Wikipedia completely and not just this article. So much for the "(except one)" condescending talk from the peanut gallery. DreamGuy 06:01, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I don't really care about the template. If others don't want it that's fine. But, DreamGuy, did I not make it clear that I was giving you the benefit of the doubt? And were you not the one who assumed the worst in me, claiming that I was only editting this article to undo your work? elvenscout742 08:39, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

If you don't care about the template, why are you even posting? Oh, that's right, to make more attacks. Giving the benefit of the doubt means not making baseless accusations in the first place, not making them and then talking out of the side of your mouth and pretending that you are giving the benefit of the doubt. Stop showing up solely to complain. Your arbitration case went down in flames as they found your accusations "utterly unpersuasive."ou honestly were here for some reason other than undoing my edits and attacking me, there's be some evidence of that on the history of the article, and there isn't. To the contrary, your edits on the article and on talk are pretty clear cut. Just let it go and stop whining. DreamGuy 14:23, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I did give you the BotD. I made no accusations, if you re-read my post, but rather said that you had probably forgotten to log-in. I now accept what you say about technical problems not letting you log-in. You are the one that keeps bringing up old arguments (the above being just one example - and, BTW, it did not fail: it just mysteriously disappeared without a word). I'm not going to try to verify what you say about opposition to this template - I'll just accept it. My User Page and my User Contributions clearly indicated months before I had ever even heard of you that I have an interest in mythology, and that is why I edit the article of that name. Feel free to check them. Indeed, if you look at the history of our conflicts with each other, it began with you changing a mythology-related article that I had written. elvenscout742 15:23, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Myth and legend

The basis of my latest round of changes it to distinguish between "myth" and "legend" and to urge contributors to this page to maintain a more precise use of the term "legend" which in common parlance is bandied about imprecisely and inaccurately. Also, I deleted to the references to the Brothers Grimm, although that might want to be kept in reserve for later expansion on traditional elements found in myth. I have left in the reference to Lévy-Bruhl, although like the reference to the Grimms, it's an antiquated source. There has been research on this topic within the last hundred years, and I'd like to see this article reflect that someday. Bruxism 19:52, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

RfC/poll – Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker: one article or two?

For this character in the Star Wars mythos, what do you think? E Pluribus Anthony 19:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I think you posted completely to the wrong talk page. That has nothing to do with mythology. DreamGuy 10:05, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I beg to differ. You'll (now) note that this topic deals with a major character in the Star Wars mythos – a gander at that article will reveal that mythology (et al.) is mentioned in the second paragraph in the introduction. E Pluribus Anthony 11:50, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

DG: as this deals with a character in the Star Wars mythos, I'm restoring the previously posted RfC/poll notice here. It's relevant: what's good for the goose may not be good for the gander. (And I may consider placing links elsewhere; if relevant, so it isn't spam.) Protest if you will, but this RfC/poll notice will be restored here until there's sufficient cause to not do so or until the poll ends (31 Dec./05). E Pluribus Anthony 04:29, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

unbiased.

The beginning of the mythology section only lists Greek mythology, Egyptian mythology and Norse mythology. Now it includes some more great examples. (unsigned, but by User:69.245.196.132)

I think those edits are going to be troublesome. It's best not to list modern religions there yet until the later section explaining in more detail, so as not to offend those who are used to the less precise meaning of myths as false. From the tone of your comments it sounds like you perhaps don't know the meaning either and are perhaps listing them to try to lash out at those who believe them. DreamGuy 09:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

"Myth" is ambiguous

Please do not attempt to tell people the Bible is a myth. That may be your POV, but it is not shared by a majority of people, and the Orthodox Church, that is official in 12 countries, has declared that the Bible is NOT a myth... Wikipedia has agreed by consensus that it will not take sides in this dispute, much as I'm sure some would love to have it "declare" the exact opposite of the Orthodox Church and say the Bible IS a myth... Find something else to do than make peoples minds up for them; Wikipedia MUST be neutral and not tell people their sacred book is a Myth. I can point you to Pages and pages full of argument on this. See also the article Religion and mythology. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 22:29, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are wrong on a large number of things. Mythology does not mean false. Calling something as belonging to a certain type of mythology does not mean that it's false and does not attack the religion in anyway. Go read the lead to this article, for crying out loud. A myth is a story that the culture telling it believes to be true about supernatural events and etc. -- it's all there. We can;t very well change the entire meaning of mythology because you got confused into thinking we're talking about myth = false, because then this article would not discuss the field using the correct terminology. Wikipedia most certainly does NOT have a consensus to not label something as mythology when it most definitely is, and by labeling narrative stories in this way it's not taking any side for or against any religious belief, it's simply taking the side of the people using the word the way the word actually means. Wikipedia MUST remain neutral, and that means using the words the way they actually mean and not dumbing things down just people people who don;t understnad the meanings of words and don;t bother reading the article in question get upset. DreamGuy 22:52, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Look up myth in a dictionary. If you or any other Christians are offended by the fact that the Bible IS mythology, then it is only because of the ignorance and bigotry bred by Christianity: a myth is NOT a falsity; it is a particular brand of story. The outright lie that a myth is a falsehood was invented by Christians to ridicule other religions that they called "mythology". It is NPOV to treat Christianity and Judaism the same as other mythological and religious systems; it is POV to say that the myths of Christianity are not myths but hard facts, setting them apart from those of other religions. elvenscout742 22:54, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not wrong. I've seen all of this argued before at Category talk:Christian mythology. Every dictionary of the English language states that "myth" and "mythology" mean FALSE. When you say the Bible is "myth", you are using an ambiguous word, one of the meanings of whicj is FALSE. Just because some are trying to pull the wool over the people's eyes with semantics doesn't chjange what all the dictionaries say. If you say the Bible is false, it's only your POV. Other people have a different POV. You must respect that and find some wording that is Neutral, ie one that doesn't state that the Bible is false. You will find the same problem if you state that the Quran is false. It's called an attack on the faith of people here and wikipedia policy expressly forbids it. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 22:57, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[5]: 1 and 2 are the real definitions; 3 and 4 (relatively rare secondary usages) are informal, non-academic language that have no place in an encyclopedia article that should be taken literally. NO good dictionary says "myth=false"; a myth is a simply a kind of traditional story, and whether it is true or not is irrelevant. To say the Bible is not myth by this definition is an outright lie, and to use the informal definition as justification for advancing a Christian POV is against Wikipedia policy. I don't know about the article on "Christian mythology", but if it has reached some "consensus" that "myth=false", then it no doubt needs my help. Anyway, sometimes consensus doesn't work. Remember? "Wikipedia is not a democracy"? English Wikipedia is overrun by Christians out to advance Christian POV that the Gospels are fact, and it has few mythology experts (like any other community of humans) to disagree. That doesn't mean the latter isn't right. elvenscout742 23:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

EVERY dictionary says that "Myth" means FALSE, and this has been discussed already ad infinitum at Category talk:Christian mythology especially the two archive pages. The overwhelming conclusion there was that calling people's Scriptures a "myth" is blatant POV, because of the ambiguity of the term, and looks like I will have to take it up the chain of command again. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 23:43, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Did you not check the link? Dictionaries generally give the definition that I cited (a traditional story with symbolic significance, etc.) and do not say that such stories are false. See Hindu mythology and Buddhist mythology: followers of those two religions are not trying to hijack Wikipedia with fundamentalist propaganda that set the two apart from other mythological systems. I don't know if expressing my well-researched views on Christianity in general here would count as a personal attack or POV, but the fact is that any religion that actively seeks to corrupt knowledge by doing such things as perverting the definitions of words so as to discredit and ridicule others is a moral evil, and fervent supporters of this evil have no place on Wikipedia. elvenscout742 00:02, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Elvenscout, your POV regarding what religions do or do not have a place in wikipedia, or what religions are or are not evil, are solely your own POV, and in fact, according to wikipedia policy, should be kept to yourself, even on a talk page. How many wikipedia articles would you like me to point out where the word "myth" is used explicitly in the sense of FALSE??? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 00:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, recently I've discovered quite a few instances where the fact that Wikipedia can be editted by anyone led to articles using inaccurate definitions of the word (check Special:Contributions/Elvenscout742 for some such). In fact, I'd quite appreciate you to point out a few dozen, to speed up my search. Could you do this? Thanks!

The fact that it is sometimes used in Wikipedia does not make it right, and does not give you the right to push your POV based on it. The Apocalypse IS mythology, and no fundamentalist who doesn't know what the word means because their religion has explicitly perverted it is going to change that. BTW, I did not say that Christians have no place on Wikipedia. I said that POV-pushing fundamentalists have no place on Wikipedia. Check my User page. Many of my "hero"es listed there are Christians, but they did not get there for being such, whereas Lafcadio Hearn got there partly for hating missionaries and Tokugawa got there specifically for saving his people from them. elvenscout742 00:20, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, for starters, how about the article Historicity of Jesus... This is supposed to be an "academic" article, yet it clearly uses "mythological" (ie FALSE) as an apposite of "historical" (ie TRUE) in the following sentence: "The difficulty of distinguishing which parts of Jesus' life are historical and which are mythological is one of the main obstacles for Biblical historians." I will add some more examples up here fairly soon. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 00:24, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Mythology has been understood in roughly the same way in both articles: as a story -- believed by the culture in question to be true -- that explains events in supernatural terms. However, I think that the Jesus article uses "mythological" in too broad a sense, because as you note it's implying that myths are by definition not true, whereas the definition here is clear that the culture in question believes in their truth and makes no claims about their actually being true or not. This article is not POV, but the other is. James James 00:49, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Disputed section

Please stop removing disputed tags. The fact that you dispute that there is a dispute is preposterous; I am allowed to dipute something, and if you dispute that there is a dispute, it only proves further that there really IS a dispute here in re: your POV. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 23:51, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not POV, as per all the info above. Try to listen to reason, Codex. elvenscout742 00:02, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Cool down, fellas

Please, no more reverts from either side, and DreamGuy, remember that Codex is trying to edit in good faith and just doesn't see your POV. No need to be rude to him for that. Codex, please don't keep trying to insert text that has no support here. Put you preferred version on the talkpage and let's discuss it. It's the only conceivable way you're going to get anything inserted that makes you happy.James James 02:17, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

While there are stories in the Bible which are "mythological" in nature, not everything in the Bible is mythological. The Acts of the Apostles, for instance, while it contains some accounts of miraculous events, is largely a prose explanation of the earliest Church (albeit from a particular and biased POV). To label the entire Bible as mythological is not only extremely POV, it's also inaccurate. Mainstream, respected Bible scholars - even those who don't affirm the Christian faith - don't believe it's entirely mythological. KHM03 13:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

But you see, we have been arguing that mythology (or, in Dreamguy's case, myths) can be true or false - it doesn't matter to whether or not it is mythology. Even if the content of the New Testament is historical fact, it is still presented as a part of a greater mythos. And even then, we are not arguing about whether the whole Bible is mythology, only whether a particular incident in the Book of Apocalypse is an example of an eschatological myth. Two users have not disputed DreamGuy's POV (which in this case is not really POV, but accepted fact) - one obviously conservative Christian who couldn't be bothered finding out what a myth is has been hijacking this article, and a vandal with a grudge against DreamGuy helped them once, without any more than an ad hominem remark that ignores the fact that consensus is with DreamGuy on this occasion. elvenscout742 13:42, 27 December 2005 (UTC)