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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 68.74.235.227 (talk) at 15:34, 4 January 2006. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

NPOV

I believe that this article is NPOV because the majority of it is about "Blacks" in the United States. 220.237.30.150

Males commit the majority of rapes. It's like saying you want equal time on the "rape" page dealing with female offenders. Women rape (and child molest) too, but if it's mostly men, then it's fair enough to deal with mostly men in the topic.

It can't really be said that the article isn't neutral. What it says is based on fact. It probably would hurt to expand it a bit though. Maybe add some more statistics on crimes commited by whites, asians, latinos, etc.

The statistics are there and plain to see. Asians are at the bottom, which might be surprising, since most of the time when you see an asian male face on TV, he's a gang member or some kind of criminal (or works in a Chinese restaurant).

Further, the first sentence claims a global correlation, but only gives statistics for one small part of the globe (the US), a place where it's not clear non-whites systematically get treated fairly. Second, the piece talks about statistics for incarceration rates, not for crime per se. If there is any correlation between race and something in the US, it's between race and incarceration rates. The entire article stinks of bias.

I've improved the header to take into account your concerns more. Does anyone notable argue the entire measured disparity could be due to differential treatment of Whites and Non-Whites? Hispanics are reportedly 12 times more likely to be convicted of violent crime than Asians.[1] Are both of these Non-White groups being treated unfairly by the justice system?-Nectar T 21:02, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

This article needs more research (of the library kind, not of the original kind), not necessarily an NPOV tag. Anything this short is bound to be biased in the content sense, rather than the language sense. --Rikurzhen 22:15, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Totally Disputed

I have added the Totally Disputed tag, because

  • statements are made with no serious factual evidence, and
  • these unsupported statements outline a POV that the author shares with a small minority of Americans.

I will go point-by-point to illistrate why this is so. 

 Statistics show that in the United States, Blacks are much more likely than Whites to commit violent crime. [2]

The statistics referenced are simply counts of current prisoners. Yes, there are a disproportinate number of blacks in US prisons. This dosn't, however, show that blacks are more likely to commit violent crime. Consider the following:

  1. If blacks are more likely to be arrested, they will be more likely to end up in prison.
  2. If blacks are more likely to be convicted in a court, the same applies.
  3. If blacks receive harsher sentences than whites, they will be in prison for longer, thus there will be more blacks in prison.


 There is also some dispute as to whether "Black crime" is caused by poverty, culture, or is partly genetic.

There is no dispute. All three are factors. It is well known that poverty drives people to crime. There are many american sub-cultures devoted to illegal activities, (i.e. drug use). Lastly, certain genes have been identified which are purported to predispose one to violence. The critical thing, though, is that these three factors apply to whites, Asians, and all other races. Poverty is a factor in both white and black crime. So is culture. And these "criminal genes" are not unique to any race. 

 Violent themes expressed in gangsta rap may encourage Black youths toward criminal behavior.

Ahh, the Columbine excuse -- only in that case it was white boys and gothic metal. Psychologists, try as they may, have yet to actually demonstrate a connection between violent music and violent behavior. Psychology aside, this is total bullshit. There was a huge "black crime" scare in the 1930s and 40s -- well before the era of gangsta rap. 

 The majority of people incarcerated in the United States are Black.  In the United States, almost 1 in 3 Black men will spend time in prison.  Blacks are as much more likely than Whites to commit crimes as men are than women.

See the first point. 

 Jared Taylor has argued that the fact that there is a racial gradient in crime commital, while unfortunate, justifies racial profiling.

For a very thorough covering of this issue, see racial profiling. BTW, Jared Taylor, from what I am reading, can be safely branded a bigot even in polite conversation.

The links are to ultra-right wing sites, so they don't even pretend to represent a neutral POV. The pages are basically propaganda, so they hardly qualify as being factual (i.e a reference). Though I havn't read the print reference, I suspect it to be of the same ilk. Personally, this article needs either serious attention, or to be deleted. I think most of the issues mentioned here are better covered in other articles.

-Casito⇝Talk 06:30, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Do you have evidence for the three numbered statements above? Dd2 10:19, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Evidence? How about basic logic.
If blacks are more likely to be arrested, they will be more likely to end up in prison.
Assume there are two hypothetical populations, A and B. Assume for the sake of arguement that people in both populations commit crime at the same rate. If 10% of pop A and 90% of pop B are caught (i.e. arrested), there will be a higher rate of members of pop B sent to prison (assuming equal conviction rates).
If blacks are more likely to be convicted in a court, the same applies.
Hence the importance of conviction rate. Consider two other hypothetical populations, C and D. They both commit crime at the same rate and get arrested at the same rate, but members of pop D are twice as likely to be convicted. There will be twice as many D's sent to prison as C's.
If blacks receive harsher sentences than whites, they will be in prison for longer, thus there will be more blacks in prison.
Looking at hypothetical populations E and F: equal percent of each get sent to prison each year, but F's get sentences twice as long. Thus there will be twice as many F's in prison.
Make no mistake, I am not claiming to have any evidence that blacks are more likely to get arrested, convicted, or recieve longer sentences for the same crimes than whites (I also make no claims to the contrairy). The problem with the article is, however, that it dosn't take these things into account. Prison population is not a measure of violent crime rate. There are many other variables in the picture that the article fails to consider. -Casito⇝Talk 8 July 2005 21:27 (UTC)
That all sounds reasonable to me, but has anyone published those claims? We have to abide by WP:NOR. --Rikurzhen July 8, 2005 22:02 (UTC)
Yes, articles must abide by NOR, but not talk pages. I never argued that this material should be added to the article, only that the article misrepresents facts to further a specific POV. Rikurzhen affirmed that my argument was reasonable, thus I conclude that he or she agrees the article shouldn't stand as-is. Secondly, Rikurzhen was a bit vague as to specifically which claims were original research. Some of my claims? or some of the article's claims? Lastly, I don't think that using simple deductive reasoning to tear apart an arguement really qualifies as research (original or otherwise). Identifying simple logical fallacies is closer to copy-editing than it is to research.-Casito⇝Talk 02:41, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Why not just present statistics for arrests,convictions, and sentencing, then present arguments from either side as to the reasons? And positioning it as a black-the rest issue is a bit disingenous: Why are Asians arrested (convicted?) at a lower rate than whites? Because I would wager that arrests do have to do with crime most of the time, and when arrests don't correlate with crime, it's because certain crimes are being committed, or it's a rich-vs-poor issue: Poor whites aren't out committing stock fraud, for instance. That blacks are arrested at a higher rate could be because some crimes see people get arrested way more, and those crimes are generally associated with poverty, and a higher % of blacks are poor than the average (and it could be argued that poor blacks tend to fall victim to nastier forms of poverty more often). Conviction is also a rich-vs-poor thing, because if you're rich you get a better lawyer: Robert Blake and OJ Simpson both had money and thus good lawyers. Poor whites and poor blacks? Don't bet on it. Sentencing could also be a rich-vs-poor thing, since the rich might tend to commit crimes that have lighter sentences: Somebody who gets away with millions due to stock fraud might easily get less time than somebody who makes away with a few hundred in a mugging. Still, Asians probably aren't richer than the average, it would be interesting to look into why they seem to be arrested/convicted so little. --Edward Wakelin 20:50, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Not all crimes are violent

Few date rapes are violent. Date Rape which is primarily a white crime is rarely reported. Only 39% of rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials. For male rape, less than 10% are believed to be reported. If one were to study this further they may find that the numbers are far higher. Most underage children are unlikely to tell their parents that they have been raped especially after sneaking out or engaging in drinking.


Colleges only in the last 5 years have become aggresive about asking for women to step forward and tell their story.

Youth Drug use is almost 3 times as high for young whites than any minority group, however, prosecution is nonexistent.

Nonexistant? Peoplesunionpro 21:44, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Where are those stats from? 3x higher for young whites than any minority group? And if date rape is rarely reported, how is it known it's primarily a white crime? If only 39% of rapes were reported, how the heck could anybody know the number 39%?--Edward Wakelin 20:33, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

[[3]] Someone has researched it. Not me. I'll find more sources later.

The sourcing on that doesn't seem too amazing... And it still doesn't explain how 10-39% of rapes are reported to the cops. And I'm still interested in where the 3x drug use comes from.--Edward Wakelin 04:35, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Jared Taylor

As far as people with strong racial views go, Jared Taylor is pretty watery. He's the model of the respectable-white-nationalist. White supremacists, neo-Nazis, etc tend to HATE him.

Still, he shouldn't be the only source in the article. Remember, though, that if a counterpart for him is gonna be searched out, it's not gonna be some way-out-there black activist... That would be the counterpart of, I dunno, Alex Linder or somebody. --Edward Wakelin 20:57, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Page Move

I have moved the page from "Race and Crime" to "Race and incarceration in the United States". Since the page is built around incarceration statistics, this seems more fitting. Secondly, these statistics are only really relevent in the US, so that was added to the title. Maybe once someone finds hard sources other than incarceration statistics (ideally a source for Jared Taylor's victim surveys, or similar), and information relevent to other countries (Brazil would be a really good example) the page can be returned to its origional name. Until then, the current name is probably the best place for it to avoid future disputes.⇝Casito⇝Talk 15:44, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

With the addition of the section on France, can we move it back to Race and incarceration?--Nectar T 21:44, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I've added a header sentence addressing that some of the central measurements of crime rates may be affected by systemic biases. Does anyone oppose moving the page back to Race and crime?--Nectar T 08:07, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Muslim isn't a race, it's a religion, no?

It appears to sometimes be used as an ethnicity (similar to 'Jewish' referring to an ethnicity, even though Judaism is a religion), or at least serve as a proxy for an ethnicity. Regarding the context it's being used (French Muslims), census data would probably show the bulk of their Muslim population traces back to a short list of arabic countries.--Nectar T 20:41, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
In the case of France there are 5 million Moroccans, so they make up the majority of the muslim population. In the Netherlands Morrocans are a more problematic muslim immigrants compared to Turks, so religion isn't a good predictor. It's probably better to group this by nationality, and possibly make a mention that Chinese immigrants are generally less criminal than the white population.
Only mention the "fact" about Chinese immigrants if you have a source for it. In the past Chinese immigrants have participated in Tong wars. -Willmcw 19:28, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


Maybe an article about religion and crime would be warranted.

It is not "well known" that poverty causes crime. Rather, it is an oft repeated assumption. The truth is that crime causes poverty. The first step in building a strong family or a successful society is to imbue high morals. (lsm)


[If you guys didn't like what the article said, why didn't you edit it? I included two paragraphs about the ridiculousness of connecting race to crime.] TheDogon 

Hey, I added some new stuff to the article, and removed other things that I saw as irrelevant.

Peace out.

This is BIASED since the studies mentioned have been made in a mixed community. If this matter would be studied in places where the only people effecting in a community would be representatives of only one of a so called "race" and fixed laws, as what a crime is, applied independently to these communities, then and only then might the study reveal something about the subject, which is 'race and crime', not 'current studies of criminality in historically generated "mixed race" populations', which would be more appropriate a subject to this.

Jared Taylor

Yes you can look at his views in different ways but facts are facts and without defending him lets look at some problems With your own eyes, take a running total and keep track every time a negitive is seen through your eyes such as tv news actual experence etc Note the race . Have you worked in a prison have you seen or understand the inmates. Have you been to harlem have you been to a trailor trash developement. Can you see the different way the people act and choose to act.If you can't your in denile.Bottom line you react and and respond to your environment which you can take a perfect white young man an put him in a prison for no reason and he will relize he will need to fight to survive to keep is morals alive and change his ways to blend in with the crowd so he will be excepted. But take this to the bank Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide trends in the U.S.: (Trends by race www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm )These are facts and only done in black vs white putting mexican asian indian etc all together to represent white race and blacks are all their own. Still the numbers are unreal to depute. People that defend the numbers as being racial then where are their facts, what have you found out ,anyone can argue a fact lets see what you find out.30 whites caught for a crime 30 blacks caught on the same crime does that make it equal if your answer is yes then you are in denile since the percentage of whites in the US over doubles the black race in the US.

M.Champ


______________________________________________________________________________________________ Again, I edited the page. If racist freaks want to come back and put back in racist garbage. We can play this little game for as long as it takes. Not many know about this particular entry. I can alert as many folks as I need to. If you believe that "race" or genetics causes a person to commit crime, you are free to believe in the mythology all you want. But in the real world, we all know that skin color has little to do with it. African immigrants, Caribbeans, and other folks you would call "Black" have little to do with African-American Culture. Any attempt to claim these groups share negative behaviors because of some unknown genetic equation is nothing but fruitcake racism at it's best.

Again stats are stats. There are stats on African/Caribbean immigrants, in fact, African immigrants are one of the most successful immigrant groupings, by even your crazed racist standards.

Also, I might add, violent crime committed by "Blacks" accounts for less than 2% of crime overall. The issue at hand is the devastating War on Drugs. . .which has turned into War on "Blacks".

The Dogon

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