Wikipedia talk:Root page

This is something I have introduced into several pages, and would like to suggest as a useful concept. It should probably have a label as is the case for 'disambiguation page' --Lindosland 13:29, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I note the change to Wikipedia:Root page. I wonder if root page should be a category, like Disambiguation. I'm not sure.

I also tend to think it might be useful to place 'This is a Root Page at the top of the article, along with 'see also' followed by just the most pertinent links (duplicating from the main See also list at the bottom of the article. I'll give it a try. --Lindosland 15:35, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Naming? (section of material moved from Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation)

Obviously, there are a lot of cases where such a page is useful. But the proposed implementation isn't exactly what I want.

Really, all pages that don't have "(disambiguation)" in the title could be root pages. We just need some nice well-known text somewhere that make this clear, so that the disambiguation warriors don't strip the pages to lists of entries — a problem well documented on numerous complaints and talk pages!

I suggest that the "Multi-stub pages" section be moved up to "When to disambiguate" (to clearly indicate that the disambig template not be used — in fact it's in the wrong section now, so I'll do that right away), and also copied to WP:GTL and MOS:DP and others.

A formal name for such pages would be good, such as root or signpost. A "better name discussion" for these pages might be needed!

--William Allen Simpson 07:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let's avoid "signpost" as this presents confusion beside Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost, unfortunately. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 15:52, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say Wikipedia talk:Root page is a better place for the naming discussion? Thanks/wangi 15:57, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

deja vu

Gives me a sense of deja-vu - this is exactly like the signpost articles I put up for deletion a month back: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Manual of Style (signpost articles) and Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 November 30#:Category:Signpost articles. I'll list root pages later on this evening. Thanks/wangi 19:34, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Deja-vu alone is no reason for deletion. I think there is need for this or something like it, and so it seems did someone before me. I cannot compare my solution to the previous attempt since its been deleted. I'd like to see further discussion, as the concept seems to solve a problem I keep coming across. I did get a 'well done' message after using this approach to sort out a call for 'cleanup' on Animation. --86.135.217.246 21:00, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Deja vu isn't my reason for deletion - i've given my reason on the MfD page: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Root page. Also see the two linked discussions above. Thanks/wangi 21:03, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, but I read in the first of those links that a signpost article "essentially does the same thing as a disambiguation page". This couldn't be further from the truth for the Root page idea: please read the explanation I put up more carefully.

Wikipedia is full of articles duplicating each other's contents. Disambiguation is only for different meanings, not associated topics. If used as a means of tidying up a large page, disambiguation fragments the ideas, leaving no common explanation. This is about hierarchy. Without a Root page, editors fail to spot each other's articles with slightly different (and unexpected) names. The Root page is about coordinating page content, and minimising duplication of effort. It is also different from a Project, which is about cooperating over a body of entries.

Please think again about this. Regards --Lindosland 21:56, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I didn't discuss first because I felt that demonstrating (carefully and with the best of intentions) was the clearest way to provide a basis for discussion and bring in comments. I also understood that the articles talk page was a good place to discuss, and I asked for discussion there --Lindosland 22:00, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The page is marked as a proposed policy, as it should be, now, and the MfD is rather unfounded. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 05:24, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'd just like to reply to the implication on the closed MfD that I was acting in bad faith here. When I put the page up for deletion it hadn't been discussed in any expected place and accepted policy/guidelines we being edited to include it as if it were policy. Sure, I jumped the gun. Also the idea is so similar to signpost articles which were MfD'd at the end of Novemeber that I expected the ultimate consensus here would also be to delete. Additionally I was the one who actually added the {{proposed}} tag. Thanks/wangi 01:32, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like the idea, with the caveat that deep hierarchies are hard to maintain and proposals that involve them have generally been rejected. As long as there aren't generally root pages for other root pages, I think this will work. Lindosland, you can make an example of a root page in your userspace, and point to it from Wikipedia:Root page. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 05:24, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure, but I think that I have been thinking of something similar, that I was considering calling "Topic guides" that would make it easier to find related topics and explain the relationships between them. ^Blank ^Verse 09:19, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's right Rspeer, I think there should never be a Root page for a Root page. That's the problem with other methods, they just confuse. In my work on Animation, which I made a Root page, I considered whether Graphic was a Root page for Animation, and Drawing for Graphic etc. but you can go on like that forever and it defeats the object of providing a point of reference for pulling together work on associated topics. I'll add text to that effect. --Lindosland 11:26, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Explanation of the common aspects

A root page may be a useful solution for the problem that a disambiguation page hardly allows explanation of the common aspects.--Patrick 12:34, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Relationship between Root pages and Portals

If the Root pages concept is adopted, it would likely be useful to articulate some formal relationship between Root pages and Portals. Portals are designed to be introductions to broad topic areas while Root pages are (so I'm interpreting) meant to be introductions to topic areas as well. One transition method from the current state to one including Root pages could be examining each of the Portals and introducing a "Root pages" section in each that would provide a hierarchy step. I would, in fact, suggest that this change be considered as a preceding step before implementation of a Root page tag across a significant number of articles. I would further suggest that the tag be implemented, if adopted, via a WikiProject that would coordinate Portal representation and article tagging. This would be in addition to the actions of individual editors, not in replacement of. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 18:22, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thats sounds good to me, though I don't claim familiarity with what Portals are about. Note that I have just revised the page, emphasising the 'star' structure, and warning that this is not about creating a multi-level hierarchy. I've also emphasised that it is perhaps more about enabling coordinated editing than assisting the user, and it is certainly not about guiding the user forever forwards or backwards. --Lindosland 23:01, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Use of Redirect from Root page to Wikipedia:Root page

Following the use of a Robot all instances of Root page were changed to the full form Wikipedia:Root page. The redirect was deleted.

I feel this was premature and have asked for it to be reversed. My feeling is that use of the shortened form Root page is easier, and there is nothing wrong in using the Redirect. There are several precedants for this, such as Wikipedia:Disambiguation, which has several redirects in place including Disambiguation and Disambiguation page. --Lindosland 00:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You can't put things about Wikipedia process in the main article namespace. Not even with a redirect. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 05:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Refined text clarifies use as the 'core of a star'

In attempting the refine the text I have found it necessary to clarify several principles.

A Root page cannot have a Root page. (avoids endless hierarchy)

A page labelled as a Root page, should not be listed in another article as a root page unless it is considered the Root page of that article. (Else the unifying object of the idea is defeated.)

An article can list two pages as its Root pages? Possible, but not recommended (example given).

Having clarified that this is about 'star' association, not hierarchy, I wonder if Root is the best word. Other possibilities might be 'Core page', 'Intro page', 'Topic page', 'Bonding page'. --Lindosland 01:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Root page and categories and templates (brainstorming)

The article that shares a name with a category is often a Root page in the sense used here, if not in fact then in potential. Should there be some wordage included that says something to this? Should there be an attempt, for instance, to limit to one Root page per category? User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 03:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I thought it was one portal per category. I'd say one root page per series template.

--William Allen Simpson 15:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Purpose is unclear

As I interpret it, looking at Animation as an example, a root page is an article which introduces a topic in its broadest form and serves as a hub to more specific topics (that's what I think they should be called, "hub articles"). Unless I've misinterpreted, isn't this guideline simply a codification of what has emerged naturally in varying forms, or is it something new? For instance, the only difference I see between the root-pagified Animation example and, say, Philosophy or War, is that Animation has italicized meta-messages inserted into it and the others do not. The messages don't seem to add much benefit and if they were removed (on say Animation) the article would stand perfectly fine. Another point this guideline discusses is linking back to the "root page" from more specialized ones. Yet most child articles I have seen link to their parent naturally within the first sentence, so...why do it again? The guideline also says something about providing an easy way for editors and readers to find a list of associated topics, but isn't that what categories and "List of X topics" articles are for? So far this guideline smells of instruction creep and is somewhat redundant with Wikipedia:Summary style, at least by my interpretation. Can its purpose be clarified?—jiy (talk) 09:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am thinking along similar lines as jiy. Sure, animation is a "Root page" where a general topic branches off into more specific articles. But ideally this what every encyclopedia aritcle should be. I don't see the need to brand an article as a Root page. --Commander Keane 17:08, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, almost every article can be though of like this. For example the Boeing 737 article doesn't go into the whole explanation about what a jet aircraft is - it just links to jet aircraft. Likewise here why should cell animation simply state it's a form of animation and let the user follow the link? Why can't the animation article simply just refer to other types of animation, why the need for complication? Thanks/wangi 01:39, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you are both right, but you are missing the point that a Root page assists editors and formalises what is otherwise a bit too haphazard. Please see further explanation of how it helps editors under 'Summary pages' below. --Lindosland 14:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Problem is we're not writing an encyclopedia for editors. Anything intended for editors should live on talk pages or the wikipedia namespace. Thanks/wangi 15:10, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with Wangi, but clearly newer editors are having a hard time figuring out the best form for these pages. when folks are asking for similar things over and over, it's time to pay heed! --William Allen Simpson 15:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes, but lets not forget: Wikipedia:Avoid self-references. Thanks/wangi 14:01, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Summary pages

My observation is that there are quite a few of these pages already. They provide a root for branches on related subjects.

These are easily distinguished from disambiguation pages by the lack of the "(disambiguation)" title and the lack of the Disambiguation (or disambig or dab) template.

Therefore, I propose that these pages be called "Summary pages" paired with Wikipedia:Manual of Style (summary pages) aka Wikipedia:Summary style.

Note: thus matching the current pairing for Wikipedia:Disambiguation with Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages).

--William Allen Simpson 00:53, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can some of these be readily identified by looking at Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Main? User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:06, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the Summary page suggestion is a good one, and I like the linking with Wikipedia:Summary style. Strictly, the term used in the summary style article seems to be Summary article, but I prefer Summary page, which pairs with Disambiguation page.

Most of the commments so far view the concept in terms of of utility to the reader, concluding that since many existing pages act as Summary pages this is nothing new. I agree that the idea does little for the reader that cannot already be done with Wikilinks but it's main value is in coordinating the editing of pages.

When I started to edit Computer generated imagery this page did not have any reference in its first paragraph to Animation and surprisingly it still doesn't have (though it probably should!). Nor did it have Animation under 'See also'. People tend to think in their own boxes when creating pages, and I guess what I am trying to do is formalise a scheme that gets people thinking about Summary style.

Once a page is labelled Summary page, editors know that this is a place where the reader should find links to ALL daughter pages. If some daughter pages do not contain links to other daughter pages, then this does not matter so much. It takes 100 edits to cross-link 10 daughter pages, and as things stand currently such cross linking tends to be patchy. Without adequaate cross-linking, separated groups arise. Nominating a Summary page avoids the need to check for full cross-linking.

With all links to daughters pages provided on the summary page, the editor who starts a new page can quickly check whether the article he is about to create already exists under a name he may not have thought of. He can also see clearly where he should place a link to his new page as top priority. --Lindosland 14:39, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Summary/root and daughter/branch pages should use series templates. There's no need for other links between daughter/branch pages.

--William Allen Simpson 15:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is not consistent with the definition of series templates at Wikipedia:Template namespace, which says 'templates are used to duplicate the same content across several pages.' While it would be possible to provide a box listing all related pages on all daughter pages using a template, this is ugly, and a warning to that effect is given. It in no way indicates which page is the Summary page, and it simply clutters every page with too many links that would be more appropriately placed on the Summary page. I have seen no examples of such use. --Lindosland 11:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see that Lindosland is in the process of changing all the Roots to Summary, and that's a good thing -- but it would be very helpful to the rest of us to use the Preview function while writing, and only Save when you are done! Avoid conflict, and make reading your change history easier.

--William Allen Simpson 16:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do, all the time, but I still make mistakes, or change my mind on a re-read. It's ok - that's what 'minor edit' is for (they are all marked M). --Lindosland 11:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC) I have found that spending too long working on an edit can actually result in edit-conflict if someone else changes the page before you save your version, and that it is therefore better to proceed in stages sometimes. I also find that Wikipedia logs me off at times (but the indication still says logged in)(Wikipedia goes down quiet often) making it desirable to save edits quickly --Lindosland 11:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

difference between "root page" and "summary style"

The "root page" ideas here *sound* good. But I'm a little fuzzy. Once again, how does Wikipedia:Root page differs from the Wikipedia:Summary style? (In theory, you should be able to find all pages with that style by looking at the backlinks from the {{details}} template, but I think there's a few pages that people just cut-and-pasted manually, because they didn't know about the template. ) The "summary style" is used by

and just about every page that has a Category named after it. (Except for sense, which uses yet another completely different style ...).

Is this supposed to be a new, improved version of Wikipedia:Summary style, making the old version obsolete? (If so, shouldn't we merge them, and discuss improvments on *its* talk page?)
Is this supposed to be an alternative, for pages that (for some reason) make this more appropriate than "summary style"?
Is it possible for some pages to be both?

I think I'm missing the point somewhere. --DavidCary 05:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No David, I think you've hit it on the head... Wikipedia:Summary style, {{details}} and {{background}} are doing the same thing as this proposal is trying to. Thanks/wangi 13:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]