Talk:Skopje

This is the text from Encyclopedia Britannica 1911 regarding the Ottoman town of Uskub (modern Skopje), which is incorporated into the article:

USKUB, USCUP, or SKOPIA (anc. Scupi, Turk. Ushkiib. Slav. Skoplye), the capital of the vilayet of Kossovo, European Turkey; on the left bank of the river Vardar, and at the junction of the railways from Nish and Mitrovitza to Salonica. Pop. (1905) about 32,000, consisting chiefly of Slavs (Serbs and Bulgars), Turks, Albanians and a few gipsies. Uskiib occupies a picturesque and strategically important position at the foot of a valley which severs two mountain ranges, the Shar Planina and Kara Dagh. Main roads radiate N.W. to Prizren, W. to ostivar, an important centre of distribution, E.N.E. to Kuma-novo, and thence into Bulgaria, and S. to Koprulii and Monastir. The city is the headquarters of an army corps, and the see of an Orthodox Greek archbishop, of the archbishop of the Roman Catholic Albanians and of a Bulgarian bishop. Its principal suildings are the citadel, the palace of the vali or provincial governor, the Greek and Bulgarian schools, numerous churches and mosques and a Roman aqueduct. The industries include dyeing, weaving, tanning and the manufacture of metal-work, wine and flour, but Uskiib is chiefly important as the commercial centre of the whole vilayet of Kossovo (_q.ii.). The Imperial Ottoman Bank and the Banque de Salonique have branches in the city, and French is to a remarkable extent the language of commerce. Uskiib retains in a modified form the name of Scupi, one of the chief cities of northern Macedonia. A few unimportant ruins mark the ancient site, about if m. N.W. Scupi was destroyed by an earthquake in A.D. 518, but was rebuilt by Justinian under the name of Justiniana Prima. Up to the i4th century it was at times the capital of the Servian tsars.

I would like to get an explanation from User:Azwhoopin18 as to why he changed the bolded words to "Macedonians" when the original text explicitly argues "Bulgarians". VMORO 16:19, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

With regard to the edit of ChrisO: A reasonable question will be why the Serbs will remain Serbs, while the Bulgarians will turn into Macedonian Slavs. And this even if it is accepted that the Macedonian Slavs had the consciousness of nothing else but Macedonian Slavs which is scarcely proveable, they had the consciousness of Bulgarians (unless they proclaimed themselves as Serbs, of course). VMORO 17:00, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

idiotic reply again, hehe. i as a macedonian slav, dont have any consciouness of a bulgar, heh. --Azwhoopin18 18:08, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The idiotic reply is only yours, darling, I guess you haven't managed to realise that this is an encyclopedia published in 1911, and it regards the world at the beginning of the 20th century. So the article "Uskub" is about the historical Ottoman town of Uskub, not about modern Skopje. VMORO 18:48, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Population.The population of Macedonia may perhaps be estimated at 2,200,000. About 1,300,000 are Christians of various churches and nationalities; more than 800,000 are Mahommedans, and about 75,000 are Jews. Of the Christians, the great majority profess the Eastern Orthodox faith, owning allegiance either to the Greek patriarchate or the Bulgarian exarchate.

this is from the Britannica Encyclopeadia 1911 the one u mention

ChrisO, as you can see, by this, and many other articles there, its very one-sided, and propaganda-full. Of the Christians, the great majority profess the Eastern Orthodox faith, owning allegiance either to the Greek patriarchate or the Bulgarian exarchate. -there are 0 greeks in macedonia, and very few bulgarians- -most of the population is members of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, and smaller minority of the serbian o.c.-

regarding macedonia-related articles, that encyclopedia will be non-valid to me.

Population.The population of Macedonia may perhaps be estimated at 2,200,000. About 1,300,000 are Christians of various churches and nationalities; more than 800,000 are Mahommedans, and about 75,000 are Jews. Of the Christians, the great majority profess the Eastern Orthodox faith, owning allegiance either to the Greek patriarchate or the Bulgarian exarchate.

this is from the Britannica Encyclopeadia 1911 the one u mention

ChrisO, as you can see, by this, and many other articles there, its very one-sided, and propaganda-full. Of the Christians, the great majority profess the Eastern Orthodox faith, owning allegiance either to the Greek patriarchate or the Bulgarian exarchate. -there are 0 greeks in macedonia, and very few bulgarians- -most of the population is members of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, and smaller minority of the serbian o.c.-

regarding macedonia-related articles, that encyclopedia will be non-valid to me. --Azwhoopin18 18:20, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I was making the point that, in 1905, the Macedonians weren't identified as Macedonians (this is why the 1911 Britannica calls them Bulgarians). Hence my suggested wording: "Macedonian Slavs (who were described as Bulgarians at the time)". It's also anachronistic to talk of the Macedonian Orthodox Church when a separate MOC wasn't created until around 1959 (see [1]). -- ChrisO 19:20, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Which logic is there that in some 100 years whole population of Macedonia can turn from Bulgarians to Macedonians? Don't you think that there would be at least some Bulgarians left?

There is no census (including the one in 2002nd) that showed more than 1000 Bulgarians that live in Republic of Macedonia (which is less than 0.05%). And all the world knows that after 1991st, there is absolutely no presure to someone change his nationality. All the censuses had very good comments from the international comunity.

Another thing that you need to explain is how the Macedonians who lived in Greece and runned away from there, and never been in Republic of Macedonia or Yugoslavia, latter appeared to be Macedonians? They never could be presured by Tito or anyone else, because they moved directly from Aegean Macedonia to USA, Canada and Australia. But, they still feel Macedonian, not Bulgarians, Greek or Serb. I sterbinski 17:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, you probably didn't see my earlier comment, so I'll paste it below. They were not only described, they also had the consciousness of Bulgarians. Not only the Skopje Bulgarians, but also the Skopje Serbs participated in the process of formation of the Macedonian nation in the 1940s, it is only that the Serbs were not persecuted for describing themselves as Serbs, as were those who described themselves as Bulgarians.

the earlier comment: With regard to the edit of ChrisO: A reasonable question will be why the Serbs will remain Serbs, while the Bulgarians will turn into Macedonian Slavs. And this even if it is accepted that the Macedonian Slavs had the consciousness of nothing else but Macedonian Slavs which is scarcely proveable, they had the consciousness of Bulgarians (unless they proclaimed themselves as Serbs, of course). VMORO 17:00, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Read my comments above, under CrisO's. Your claims are absolutelly out of any logic. It is truth that part of the Macedonian people in that time were identifying as Bulgarians, but only in the sence of separating themselves from the Serbs and Greeks and their assimilation politics. As soon as Bulgarians started with their own assimilation politics, the Macedonians distanced themselves from the Bulgarian, in order to keep their separate ethnicity and identity. Another thing that I don't understand is why the Macedonians in Bulgaria still identify themselves as Macedonians. They were victims of the Bulgarian assimilations for very long time, but they managed to keep their identity. And, Tito was not there to scare them, as the Bulgarians claim. Actually, Tito was the one who was inprisoning everyone who was promoting the Macedonian nationality and history. Those people were inprisoned as separatists. That does not seem as a support for keeping our national identity as Macedonians. But, we still did. I sterbinski 17:16, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Bulgarians in Skopje? Where?

Dear VMORO and all other Bulgarians. Shortly and clearly: There were no Bulgarians EVER in Skopje, except when you supported Hitler and occupied Skopje, so your soldiers were here for 2-3 years. I have a living grandfather from 1920s, he is a living prove of the truth. Till the 1930s, Bulgarian was a synonym for "Slavic Ortodox". Same as 150 years ago American ment person living on any of the American continents and nowdays it means US citizen. I invite you to visit Skopje at any time and try to find Bulgarians here. Then, you will be able to stop your assimilation wishes and live a real life. We all feel only Macedonian, and you can only dream us to be Bulgarian. Deal with it and get a life. Personally, I would rather be dead than be Bulgarian. Noone did worse to us during our history than Bulgarians. And you keep doing it.

You can post this and your other threats in a forum, here it just looks silly. Smartech

Disregarding the militant tone in your voice, Istirbinski, the Slavic population of historical Uskub (prior to WWI) viewed itself either as Bulgarian or as Serbian. This is reflected in the article, a link to which I have provided, as well as in all other historical sources from the time period. The article in 1911 encyclopaedia was actually used previously to create an article Uskub here, which was later integrated into the Skopje article. As regards the rest, I would recommend you keep yourself to factuality and refrain from sending me messages where you tell me how you are gonna "strangle me". This kind of behaviour is beyond contempt. VMORO 14:19, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

It is not acceptable you making assimilation edits on Wikipedia, but you actually do it all the time. And, stop talking bullshit that Macedonian nation was created in the 40s. I have a grandfather (still alive) that was fighting for Macedonia's independence since the 1920s and, actually "strangling you" are his words. Just to show you how much not Bulgarian he feels.

And which stupidity is to claim that in just 70 years whole population of Macedonia of about 2 millions can completely revert from Bulgarian to Macedonian. If they ever were Bulgarians, at least someone will still feel that way. But, they never were Bulgarians.

There are many Macedonians who never lived in Republic of Macedonia and Tito was never their president, but they still feel Macedonians. The ones who runned away from Aegean Macedonia to Australia, USA and Canada. They couldn't have any presure from anyone, but they still are Macedonians. How do you explain that? I sterbinski 16:55, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Again the same pathetic streak - we are the victims, we are the subject of assimilation, when are you actually gonna stop whining, Isterbinski? First of all it is about 1.3 mln Macedonians, not 2.0 mln. Secondly, cases like Krastyu Misirkov and Venko Markovski who converted from being Bulgarian to being Macedonian and the other way around several times are indicative of how easy the transition between a "Macedonian" and a "Bulgarian" was at that point. Third of all, you put more than 100,000 people in concentration camps and prisons (Goli Otok and Idrizovo) and until 1990 it was a criminal act to educate one's children as Bulgarians in FYROM. Fourth of all, the emigrants to Canada and Australia all came at the end of the 1940s when there was a very aggressive Macedonian propaganda in Aegean Macedonia - the ELAS fighters were publicly supported and financed by Tito. Earlier emigrants to the USA were and have remained Bulgarians. VMORO 18:15, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Teodosij Gologanov

AKeckarov, what was this Teodosij babbling about? Maybe he was an agent of Comintern? I am sure you can understand the following, you always claim how Macedoninan is only dialect from Bulgarian.

Teodosij Gologanov, (1846-1926) Skopski egzarhiski mitropolit mu pisuva pismo na arhimandritot Dionisij vo Sofija:

Do Negovoto Vseprepodobie, G. Dionisij Sofija

Skopje, 22 Juni 1891 g.

Predrag mi vo Hrista brate,

Cudna e promislata Bozja, a uste se pocudni patistata negovi. Hristos propovedase ljubov megu lugeto i za nea otide na Krst, a nie lugeto, vo imeto na taa Hristova ljubov, so negoviot najsvet simbol – Krstot, sirime megu lugeto najgolema omraza i gi potisnuvame duhovno i nacionalno ubeduvajki gi deka dobro im cinime. Taka i nasata sveta Egzarhija na celo so blazeniot Egzarh Josif I pravi sevozmozno da go ubedi kutriot makedonski narod deka mu go misli dobroto, deka se grizi za negovata segasnost i idnina i deka saka da go izvadi od temninata na nacionalnoto neosoznavanje i od nego da sozdade sveti bugari. A ne treba mnogu da te ubeduvam, premil brate vo Hrista, deka svetata nasa Egzarhija so svojata crkovna i prosvetna dejnost tuka vo Makedonija vrsi vsusnost najmizerna zadaca, mu go odzema imeto na eden narod i go zamenuva so drugo, mu go odzema majciniot jazik i go zamenuva so tug, za da obezbedi na svojata vlada i svoite bugarski corbadjii da si ja prosirat trgovijata i na tuga teritorija. A kako ova ti ke go nareces, Dragi brate, ako ne novo ropstvo, postrasno od turskoto. Turcite zemaat imoti i zivoti na rajata no ne posegnuvaat vrz negoviot duh. Tie go unistuvaat teloto, no duhot go pocituvaat. A nasata sveta Egzarhija go ubiva ova drugoto, postojanoto. Toa li e bratski i hristijanski odnos?...” I ova ti go pisav za da ne te cudi moeto poranesno pismo vo koe ti go iznesov moeto mislenje deka nie duhovnicite po poteklo Makedonci treba da se zdruzime i da go kreneme nasiot narod da se razbudi, da gi otfrli tuginskite upravi, da gi otfrli i Patrijarsijata i Egzarhijata i da se obedini duhovno vo kriloto na Ohridskata Arhiepiskopija, negovata vistinska majka crkva. Ne e li krajno vreme da se zapre nacionalnoto dvizenje na eden ist narod samo poradi toa sto edni ja priznavaat patrijarsijata, a drugi egzarhijata, dodeka tretiot mu se poklonuva na muhamed. Ne e li krajno vreme da sopre omrazata megu brat i brat? A kako toa moze da se stori ako ne preku svoja narodna crkva, preku Ohridskata Arhiepiskopija. Jas ke bidam iskren dragi brate vo Hrista i otvoreno ke ti recam: nie Makedoncite nemame tolku maka od Turcite, otkolku od Grcite, Bugarite i Srbite, koi kako orli na mrsa se vpustija vo ovaa nasa mnogustradalna zemja i sakaat da ja rascerecat... ”Centralen drzaven istoriceskij arhiv - Sofija, 176, op. 1, arh. Ed. 595, l. 5-42”

Mitropolitot Teodosij Gologanov go iznesuva istorijatot na nezakonskoto ukinuvanje na Ohridskata Arhiepiskopija vo 1767 g. i bara nejzina obnova vo unija so Rimokatolickata crkva.

Mitroplit Teodosij Gologanov do Papata Lev XIII

Do Svetiot Otec Papata Lev XIII Rim

Jas, dolupotpisaniot Mitroplit skopski Teodosij, po milosta bozja kirijarh na skopskata eparhija, ja podnesuvam ovaa svoja molba od svoe ime i od imeto na cela pravoslavna pastva od Makedonija, so koja ja molime negovata svetost da ne primi vo kriloto na Rimokatolickata crkva, otkako ke nija obnovi starodrevnata Ohridska arhiepiskopija, nezakonski ukinata od sultanot Mustafa III vo 1767 godina, i ke ja stavi vo kanonsko edinstvo so Rimokatolickata crkva. Nasata zelba proizleguva od istoriskoto pravo na makedonskiot pravoslaven narod da se oslobodi od jurizdikcijata na tuginskite crkvi, Bugarskata egzarhija i Carigradskata patrijarsija, da se obedini vo svoja edinstvena pravoslavna crkva i gi dobie site belezi na narod koj koj ima pravo na samostoen dohoven i kulturno-prosveten zivot. Ve molime, Vasa Svetost, da gi imate predvid specificnostite na pravoslavieto, od koi pravoslavniot narod nikogas nema da se otkaze: nezavisnosta vo duhoven pogled, bogosluzbata i svestenickata obleka. Se preporacuvam na Vasite molitvi i snishodveno Vi se poklonuvam, Vas vo Hrista brat i molitvenik,

4 Dekekemvri 1891 godina Skopje

Teodosij Mitropolit skopski

Vo prilog na pismoto se dadeni uslovite za premin vo unija so Rimokatolickata crkva. Archivio della S. Congregazione de propaganda Fide – Roma: "Indice della Ponenza-Marzo 1892-93", Somm. XV, f. 132-141

Augusto Boneti, sef na Lazaristickata misija so sediste vo Carigrad, od Noemvri-Dekemvri 1891 god. vodi pregovori so Egzarhiskiot mitropolit vo Skopje Teodosij Gologanov za obnova na Ohridskata arhiepiskopija pod pokrovitelstvo na Rimokatolickata crkva. Ke navedam samo citati od dve negovi pisma do "Svetata kongregacija za propaganda na verata vo Rim", vo koi toj objasnuva sto se slucilo so mitropolitot Teodosij Gologanov i kako reagiral Makedonskiot narod na toa:

6 januari 1892 Carigrad No 187

Do Svetata kongregacija za propaganda na verata vo Rim

Vo vrska so moeto pismo od Skopje od 4 dekemvri minatata godina, Vi soopstuvam deka dojde do izvesni nastani koi nasata zamisla za priem na Mitropolitot skopski Teodosij vo unija so celata Makedonska pastva se komplicira poradi docnenjeto na odgovorot od Rim. Izvesten sum od nasiot svestenik, otec Ivan Nelidov deka po naredba na Visokata Porta, a po izrecno baranje na Egzarhot, mitropolitot go napustil Skopje i e na pat za Carigrad vo pridruzba na svojot rodnina (brat) Ivan Gologanov. Egzarhot veke podgotvil obvinitelen akt protiv nego...

Apostolski delegat Augusto Boneti Archivio della S. Congregazione de propaganda Fide – Roma: "Indice della Ponenza-Marzo 1892-93", Somm. XV, f. 132-141

Apostolski vikarujat No 187 12 Mart 1892 Carigrad

Do Svetata kongregacija za propaganda na verata vo Rim

Vasa Eminencijo,

Vo vrska so vaseto mnogu ceneto pismo od 20 Januari 1892 g., br. 12342, Ve izvestuvam deka vcera Mitropolitot skopski Teodosij e lisen od skopskata katedra so resenie na egzarhiskiot duhoven sud i e doneseno resenie vednas da se isprati vo Sofija na prinuden prestoj vo nekoj manastir. Za vreme na svojot prestoj vo Carigrad mitropolitot Teodosij napravi dva pati obid da sretne so mene i vo taa smisla go molese nasiot svestenik, otecot Ivan Nedilov. Jas megutoa odbiv da se sretnam licno, posocuvajki deka cekam odgovor od negovata svetost, koj edinstveno resava za prasanjeto. Sloboden sum da go iskazam svoeto mislenje, Vasa Eminencijo. Ako bevme po efikasni, ke mozevme da slavime eden znacaen uspeh vo Bozjoto delo. Dozvolete mi da preporacam i natamu da ne se otkazuvame od idejata za preveduvanje na Makedonskata pastva vo kriloto na nasata Sveta Crkva. Mojot predlog, Vasa Eminencijo, se zasnova vrz provereni vesti od Makedonija, kade sto pastvata od Skopskata eparhija, kako i onaa od cela Makedonija, ostro reagira protiv smenuvanjeto na mitroplitot Teodosij i dava izjavi deka e gotova da premine vo unija so nasata Sveta crkva. Se preporacuvam na Vasite molitvi i ostanuvam veren.

Vas Apostolski delegat Augusto Boneti Archivio della S. Congregazione de propaganda Fide – Roma: "Indice della Ponenza-Marzo 1892-93", Somm. XV, f. 132-141 --Cigor 13:01, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Cigor, I am Macedonian (from Ohrid) so I am understand this regional norm of Bulgarian language very well (But originally Teodisija didn't wrote in this language norm). I'll ask to verify your sources in Centralen drzaven istoriceskij arhiv - Sofija, 176, op. 1, arh. Ed. 595, l. 5-42, because one of your quotes (in Edit summary) is very questionable This is the site of Archive of Macedonia, but there are candid fakes on it - http://www.soros.org.mk/archive/G04/01/sm2004.htm (Not Bulgarian Folk Songs of Miladinov Brothers, but only Folk Songs - in Document :)).

I am not impressed. The conflict between Teodosia Gologanov and Ekzarh Joseph (Bishop Teodosie was his substitute) is touch on in historiography. However Teodosia was and died like good Bulgarian from Macedonia (from region of Nevrokop where the dialect is more Eastern Bulgarian than Western). But did Teodosia led some Macedonian Slavs community in Skopje in 1905? Did exist some Macedonian Slav community in Skopje in the begining of XX century? How many contemporaries met Macedonian Slavs in 1905 in Skopie - separate from Bulgarians (or Serbs)? (And please, note - not Macedonian Slavs like common term about every Slavs in MK, but like equal term with Bulgarians and Serbs). I кnow only one (author). Help me and add more exceptions to the observations of the contemporaries. My oppinion is that there are not place in historical section for some community which is not existed in the concrete historical epoch or which was only in the head of 2-3 hesitatеd intellectuals. Regards, --212.122.161.65 19:25, 12 January 2006 (UTC)