User talk:Hardouin

Thai script

Hi there. I see you made the Thai script on several articles in a bigger font. I also have problems to recognize the characters in their normal height, but that's probably just because I am a very beginner with thai language, Thai webpages don't use such a big font. And using a different height makes the page look awful from a typographic point of view - the text jumps in the line, as well as the vertical space between the line changes. Or maybe it's just a font issue which makes Thai show up so small in your browser - in the editing mode they are way too small for me as well, but in the rendered version they show up fine. For the provinces it'd be possible to modify the infobox to be more like the country infobox, and add a bigger thai name that way, but inside the text I think we should avoid it. andy 18:36, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I answered on my talk - only the screenshots aren't online yet, I will do that tomorrow. andy 22:35, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

French Departments

Hello. I am sorry, but not only do I live in France, but I quintuple checked to make sure my edit was correct.

There are, in metropolitan France, 95 departments. The licence plates in metropolitan France go from 01 to 95. Departments 91 to 95 are all around Paris and do not belong to alphabetical order that is common from 01 to 90.

The DOM, Departements d'Outre-mer, may have contributed to an understandable confusion.

Do not take my word for it. Do a search on the internet.

I suggest

http://cbandiera.free.fr/depart.php

or the Official INSEE, look at the numbers going from 01 to 95 from Metropolitan France.

http://www.insee.fr/fr/ffc/pop_legale/dep.asp

Bureau du Roi

Not all of us live in France, or have the chance to visit it, so we have to work from books. I know I did a lot of preparation on Bureau du Roi, working from books printed in the 50s and 60s (as well as from the 1911 edition of the Britannica, and other encyclopedias I have access to) and I assume Wetman did a bit of work too, so we were not doing a slavish copy of the 1911 edition. Thanks for placing it in the right museum. AlainV 17:42, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Disagreement about overseas territories

As I suppose you are as French as I am, I write in French...

Pas d'accord avec ton analyse sur la Polynésie, regarde la loi organique portant statut d'autonomie de la Polynésie française, et notamment le deuxième alinéa de l'article 1er : Pays d'outre-mer au sein de la République, la Polynésie française constitue une collectivité d'outre-mer dont l'autonomie est régie par l'article 74 de la Constitution.

Je comprends l'enchaînement des concepts comme suit : on appelle "collectivité d'outre-mer" un territoire régi par l'article 74 de la Constitution -et à ce titre la polynésie est une COM. Deux de ces COMs ont des titres un peu ronflants destinés à faire plaisir à leurs élus/habitants : la Polynésie pays d'outre-mer et Mayotte collectivité départementale, mais c'est plutôt une plaisanterie en l'absence de toute disposition légale s'appliquant à ces types de collectivité. Ma lecture est aussi celle de laDocumentation française.

Pour les TAAF, je concède que ce n'est tout simplement pas évident. La Documentation française pense, comme moi, que ce ne sont pas des COMs. Un argument prépondérant (selon moi) étant que le statut des COMs doit être fixé par loi organique, alors que celui des TAAF est du domaine de la loi simple. Mais je note que la ministre de l'outre-mer dans son sa page web programme range les TAAF parmi les COMs. Il me semble plus simple de les considérer comme catégorie sui generis comme la Nouvelle-Calédonie. Pas d'accord du tout par contre pour garder l'appelation "territoire d'outre-mer" pour eux : elle a été retirée de la Constitution, avec la volonté manifeste de la faire disparaître de l'ordre juridique français, et qualifier les TAAF de "TOM" me paraît un anachronisme.

Voilà c'est tout j'espère qu'on va arriver à un consensus, parce qu'on est à peu près les deux seuls éditeurs à nous intéresser à la structure administrative de l'outre-mer français. --French Tourist 12:48, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Un dernier détail sur les TAAF - je suis allé voir leur site web, et effectivement la page statut les qualifie de TOM, mais c'est une page datée de 2003, qui ne fait pas allusion à la nouvelle mention des TAAF dans la Constitution et qui enfin écrit de façon manifestement erronée que c'est le seul territoire d'outre-mer qui (...). Pour moi, elle ne suffit pas à faire autorité, d'autant qu'elle contredit les autres pages plus récentes que j'ai citées ci-dessus --French Tourist 12:53, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Je reviens sur le sujet après avoir lu ta réponse et traîné quelques jours à répondre en retour.

• Sur les TAAF, pas convaincu qu'il y ait _une_ réponse (il n'y a pas une personne qui s'est demandé "on les laisse TOM ou on les fait évoluer" ?) mais plusieurs lectures d'une situation pleine de contradictions. Aucune objection à la tienne (sous réserve, si la Wikipedia existe encore dans plusieurs années, de s'autoriser à faire évoluer ça en fonction de l'opinion qui sera devenu dominante dans les traités de droit).
• Sur la Polynésie française, je ne modifie pas mon opinion, en revanche. Tu écris dans ton intervention sur ma page de discussion Il me semble que si le Conseil Constitutionnel avait été consulté, il aurait sans doute censuré l'appellation "pays d'outre mer" comme contraire à la constitution. Mais le Conseil Constitutionnel _a_ été consulté : comme il s'agit d'une loi organique, il a eu à statuer et l'a fait par sa décision 2004-490. Comme tu pourras le vérifier (et comme je viens juste de le découvrir) mon interprétation est officiellement la sienne, cf. le considérant 13 : Considérant que l'article 1er de la loi organique, après avoir précisé la configuration territoriale de la Polynésie française, énonce les principes généraux applicables à la Polynésie française, collectivité d'outre-mer dont l'autonomie est régie par l'article 74 de la Constitution ; que, s'il désigne cette dernière comme " pays d'outre-mer ", cette dénomination n'emporte aucun effet de droit ; que, dans ces conditions, l'article 1er n'est pas contraire à la Constitution ; : la Polynésie reste bien une COM, et l'appelation de pays d'outre-mer est juste un gadget sans effet juridique pour faire plaisir à Gaston. Te convainc-je cette fois ? --French Tourist 21:12, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Can you please not write in French. This is the english wikipedia and writing in french excludes monolingual idiots such as myself. Merci Baucoup! BrokenSegue 18:07, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Emperors template

Good job on improving and creating articles on various Chinese historical figures. Your edits on names are quite informative. I proposed here a template for the various emperor articles and tested it at Kangxi. Please help out or comment if your interested. Please also comment at Talk:1st Prince Chun. Cheers, Jiang 00:59, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Metropolitan

I think your rearrangement of the metropolitan disambiguation page was misleading. One writes "Alexius became Metropolitan of Kiev in 1354"; it would be quite unusual to write "Alexius became Metropolitan Bishop of Kiev in 1354". The word metropolitan used in that sense is a noun, not an adjective; if it were an adjective you would not see the plural form metropolitans, which in fact is a commonplace usage (e.g., see list of Metropolitans and Patriarchs of Moscow). Michael Hardy 01:00, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Metropolitan is BOTH a noum and an adjective. As an adjective it means "relating to, or designating an ecclesiastical metropolis". As a noun it means "a bishop with provincial powers". So both are true.

That's why I thought what you did was misleading; you made it appear that the word is used as a noun only when it refers to a car model. Michael Hardy 21:12, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Limit tables to 300px

Trying to break lines within tables to limit their width is the idiotic way of doing things. It requires using the preview button a gazillion times. Please dont tell me this looks better:

File:Guangxu screen.JPG

We must keep tables 300px wide at most to accomodate those with smaller screens. Please dont mass revert my formatting either since the general rule is to link once per article and list Chinese only if the article does not exist. If you disagree, then explain. --Jiang 01:29, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It is possible to add line breaks within the 300px scheme by breaking earlier than usual. Or add &nbsp to prevent breakage. If there's a problem with rendering, I would like to see it. On my screen, all the dates fit to one line. The painfully designed tables were not screwed up once I removed all those br tags. Provide a screenshot to demonstrate that the automatic sizing is inferior because I cant see it on my computer.

I understand your position that we should accomodate those who cannot read unicode, but we also have interests of saving space. We already have characters there... I won't revert you at Mencius or Confucius, but I request an explanation of why you destroyed my link to Chinese philosophy and addition of alternative text for the image at Mencius.

As for not listing characters for articles that already exist, the guidelines are listed at Wikipedia:Manual of Style for China-related articles. I did not write them, but follow them for the sake of consistency. If you disagree with the rule then go ahead and argue against it at the relevant talk page.

Please do not tell me what not to edit. I'm afraid you don't understand the whole point of a wiki. If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it. As long as formatting changes are an improvement, no matter how trivial, they are welcome. And no, I won't be changing BE to AE. I read the fucking manual and follow it. If you're annoyed, even though I really am annoying, then I'm afraid this place is not for you.

The name of the Qing Dynasty in romanized Manchu is not relevant in an article on one of its Emperors. It is only relevant in the article on the Qing Dynasty itself. It's kind of for the same reason we dont flood the article with Chinese characters for every term or person mentioned. I have yet to hear a convincing argument at Wikipedia talk:History standards for China-related articles on why these tables should be an exception to the convention and why we need redundancy. Cheers, Jiang 03:53, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The date thing is a problem. The Kangxi article just didnt have its br tags removed yet. Try adding & nbsp ; (no spaces) to the spaces where the date is breaking off and see if that forces it to stay onto one line. I did that to keep the link to Posthumous name togethter.

If there's no article, then it's pefectly fine to add Chinese charcters. Again, if you disagree with the policy, don't just break it on your own - argue against it. I don't think its a bad idea for certain cases.

I've noticed that I keep getting cached version while trying to view page differences and revisions. The current version shows up fine for me though. Try pressing CTRL and F5 to refresh the page. Your edits at Mencius have apparently showed up. If it doesn't work, delete your cache.

Yes, there's a rule against switching AE to BE or vice versa on neutral topics (China-related topics count as neutral since the language is Chinese). There's no rule against formatting changes. I've been pressed with other things these past few weeks so I've tried to stay away from time-consuming edits. I'm mostly monitoring my watchlist nowadays. --Jiang 02:40, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Manchu studies

Hello. I made comments on your edits about Manchus: Talk:Kangxi Emperor#Ethnicity of Kangxi's mother, Template talk:Qing namebox and Talk:Aisin Gioro#Aisin Jiaolue?. --Nanshu 07:04, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Did you know has been updated

And an article you created recently has made the line up and is now featured on the main page. Enjoy! -- [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 21:09, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

Emperors of China

Absolutely wonderful work! Keep it up. --[[User:OldakQuill|Oldak Quill]] 10:22, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Qing dynasty

I study Manchu by myself using these textbooks:

• Kawachi Yoshihiro 河内良弘, Kiyose Gisaburō Norikura, Manshūgo bungo nyūmon 満洲語文語入門, Kyoto University Press, 2002.
• Li, Gertraude Roth, Manchu: A Textbook for Reading Documents, University of Hawaii Press, 2000.

I only read Manchu texts with the help of dictionaries. I don't write, speak, or listen to Manchu. Actually, official documents don't tell me how they said hello in Manchu :)

I took Manchu given names, era names and others from an appendix of 简明满汉辞典 which was compiled by 刘厚生 and others. I have a complete list of them though I haven't yet add it to Wikipedia. Note that Qing emperors did have full posthumous names in Manchu, but it's not easy to know them. Japanese researchers (and non-Japanese ones I think) who utilize Manchu literature mostly focus on early Manchu history, so the Toyo Bunko published 滿文老檔, 旧滿州檔 天聰九年, and 内國史院檔 天聰七年. I found Nurhaci's full posthumous name at Manchu archives which appeared at Shin taiso jitsuroku no kenkyū 清太祖實録の研究 by Matsumura Jun 松村潤, but as you know, it was modified by succeeding emperors. They also use Manchu literature for studies for Mongolian affairs and campaigns against the Oyirad, but not for Chinese history. If I coud fully access Manchu archives stored at 中国第一历史档案馆, I could find full posthumous names.

As I said above, Manchu studies specialize in early Qing history, and its campaign against and administration for Inner Asia. So currently I have no plan to engage in middle and late Qing articles.

As far as I know, the only way to display Unicode Manchu "properly" for Windows is to use the font named Code2000 with proper USP10.dll. Still, I think it exhibits too erroneous behavior for Wikipedia to adopt, possibly due to the incomplete specification. For more technical info, see [1] and [2]. --Nanshu 07:51, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Portraits of Emperors of China, ancient scripts of Chinese characters and sinological materials

Hello. Your works on those materials are truly impressive. Would you mind sharing how you collected those materials, for instance, the seal script of Empress Wu Zetian of China and the State of Qi ? Ktsquare (talk) 05:10, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ci'an is written with an amazing balance of the common ultra-nice view and the rarer crticisms. --Menchi 21:22, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What you just did to Qin (state) was weird...

Article Licensing

Hi, I've started a drive to get users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to either (1) all U.S. state, county, and city articles or (2) all articles, using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) v1.0 and v2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to Wikipedia's license, the GFDL, but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles. Since you are among the top 1000 Wikipedians by edits, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles. Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:

• Multi-Licensing FAQ - Lots of questions answered
• Multi-Licensing Guide
• Free the Rambot Articles Project

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the "{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}" template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

Option 1

I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:

{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}

OR

Option 2

I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions to any [[U.S. state]], county, or city article as described below:

{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace "{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}" with "{{MultiLicensePD}}". If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know what you think at my talk page. It's important to know either way so no one keeps asking. -- Ram-Man (comment| talk)

Joan of Arc Article

This concerns your edits to the Joan of Arc article.

I'm a historian who specializes in this subject, and I would point out that the "national consciousness" idea was popularized by authors such as Twain and Shaw, not by historians. During Joan's campaigns, the French were not even united into a single faction to begin with, and nationalism as we know it had not evolved yet. Moreover, Joan's stated motive was to place Charles VII on the throne since he had the better feudal claim: she never made any statements equating to "national sentiment", which is anachronistic when applied to this period.

Joan's presence increased support for the Armagnac faction, but she did not unite the entire French populace (reconciliation with the Burgundian faction would not occur until 1435, and other nobles would similarly remain outside the Armagnac group for some time).

I have therefore changed the introduction again accordingly.

Regards,

Allen Williamson, Joan of Arc Archive (AWilliamson 05:19, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC))

Gregorian vs. Julian calendar

I was going by Wikipedia:History_standards_for_China-related_articles#Era_names in changing Julian dates to Gregorian dates. If you think the policy should be changed or clarified, please discuss. --Jiang 22:21, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Please change the guideline and post on the relevant talk page. Your expertise is also requested regarding the naming convention of Yuan emperors. No, it is not obvious. I posted a note one and a half weeks ago and waited for a response. I still havent gotten one. --Jiang 14:37, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

UK population

On infoboxes we put the population from List of countries by population. In that page we also rank countries in descending order, and that is the ranking number we put beside the population figure on all infoboxes. The aformentioned list is an estimate from the US Census based on information given by the countries themselves. It is a projection for July 2005 which is quite handy to have for a comparable table. This mantains a consistency throughout Wikipedia. The hard fact population figure is given by the census data (carried by each country) which is also there in the infobox. Please don't continue to revert this page. Thank you. Also, see the policy Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries if you are interested on how information is handled on infoboxes. —Cantus…☎ 11:54, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

Provinces of France

Hey, I'd be happy to help with maps, although I'm not specifically sure of what to do. I fully agree with everything you say on the talk page - the page was and is a mess. I've tried to clean it up a bit by making the map listing more accurate and taking out some of the more misleading stuff, but I still don't think it really works. I think that any map we have should a) clearly show the areas that were simply not provinces of France, because they were not part of France during the old regime (that is to say, the Comtat Venaissin, Avignon, Savoy, Nice, Mulhouse, and Montbéliard); b) indicate clearly the different meanings of province, as you suggest, and hopefully have maps showing gouvernements, generalités, ecclesiastical provinces and dioceses, pays d'états, parlement jurisdictions, and so forth; and perhaps c) try to explain places commonly designated as provinces, but which do not fit in any of these categories. BTW, are you familiar with this site? It seems useful for these purposes. john k 21:48, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Detroit River

You might want to double check your sources on your recent edit. Rivière des Moines means "river of the monks" and is the origin of the name of the Des Moines River in Iowa, and of the city Des Moines, Iowa. -- Decumanus 23:37, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)

cut-and paste move?

Do I understand correctly that you just did a cut-and-paste move of content from Cerdanya to Cerdagne? And blanked Talk:Cerdanya? Cut-and-paste moves are a real no-no (the history gets completely separated from the article). And there is almost never a reason to delete other people's comments from a talk page. I can probably fix this, but I'd like first to understand what is going on. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:18, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

But you didn't use the Move function, you cut and pasted, right? -- Jmabel | Talk 20:53, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

A redirect with no history doesn't prevent the move. But more to the point, if you couldn't move it yourself, tag it for an admin to do. I'm going to clean it up now, but I may lose your after-move edits. I'll try to preserve them, but you might have to redo them. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:05, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

Well, things get backed up. But you just made tremendously more work for me fixing this after the fact. Question: when you tagged it, did you make a request either to an admin you know or on the Administrators' noticeboard or Village pump (assistance) asking for followup? -- Jmabel | Talk 21:14, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

I believe it's fixed now. Took two of us. Please, please, next time ask an admin, it saves a lot of grief, honest. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:33, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

So this time you decided to get attention by making it a big problem for someone? -- Jmabel | Talk 21:48, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

Montreal, accent tonique

"Corrected IPA, there's no tonic stress in French". Isn't there a slight stress at the end of any word? I do not have a very good ear but I usually can detect it among Montrealers. Those who speak French as a mother tongue of course. --AlainV 16:55, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Parliament Hill

Thank you for adding the French saying of Parliament Hill. I'm editing the page, so that there isn't a gap between the end and the bottom of the page. User:SNIyer12 19:36 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dynasty templates

Hi there. I've just noticed you reverted the French royal dynasty images to the previous ones. You're right they are quite poor computer renditions, but I was just wondering, where does the fact that they were never used by the monarchs stem from? ♪ Craigy ♫ 23:52, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

Ah I see! Well thanks for clearing that up. It might have looked better to have the grandes armoiries on each template but I guess it would be rather misleading and one can't change history I suppose. Top marks for research anyway! Thanks ♪ Craigy ♫ 00:24, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

Image:A380 1.jpg

Hi, I need to know your source for this image. Thuresson 20:53, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

I can't find the photo on the web site. However, information on the presidential website in not public domain. [3]

Les graphismes, photographies et ressources multimédias ne peuvent être reproduits sans accord préalable. Pour les créations graphiques et les illustrations, les demandes doivent être adressées aux détenteurs des droits.

Let me just say that your claim that the photo is public domain is very misleading. 22:32, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Khmer Krom

Hi,

The claim that there are 8 million Khmer Kroms in Vietnam seems to originate from Khmer Krom groups, which have as much motivation to overstate the numbers as the Vietnamese government has to understate it. Do you have any independent estimates of these numbers? DHN 16:48, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Carte de France

J'ai débuggué la mienne : un script avait mangé tous les noms de villes contenant une lettre accentuée, ainsi que les agglomérations dont la ville centrale faisait moins de 50000 habitants. Tu as fait comment la tienne ? Édition à la main ? David.Monniaux 20:54, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Je ne vois pas de bug sur la version actuelle. Tu es sûr que tu n'as pas la carte en cache? (shift-reload) David.Monniaux 21:23, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Bon, ce coup là ce sont les villes avec des espaces dans les noms qui ne sont pas passés. Comme tu peux le supposer, la carte est réalisée entièrement automatiquement d'après des bases de données. C'est pourquoi je ne suis pas très chaud pour les bricolages à la main par dessus. Imaginons par exemple qu'on veuille changer la légende, la façon de représenter... ou qu'on veuille traduire les noms des villes (Paris => Parigi, etc.). Très facile avec les scripts, pénible à la main. En plus, ça se corrige en 2 secondes dès qu'on voit les exemples qui foirent. David.Monniaux 22:14, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Réparé. David.Monniaux 00:05, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Actuellement, le diamètre des symboles est proportionnelle au logarithme de la population. La logique voudrait plutôt qu'on utilise la racine carrée, ce qui donne un disque d'aire proportionnelle à la population. Qu'en penses-tu ? (cf exemple) David.Monniaux 00:23, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

J'ai bien compris ce que tu voulais mais cela n'est pas si simple.

En ce qui concerne les aires urbaines: je répète, je n'ai pas les données sous une forme simplement utilisable pour faire des cartes (i.e. bitmap haute résolution ou vectoriel) et la carte que tu proposes n'est pas franchement facile à utiliser dans ce but. On peut, bien évidemment, essayer de décalquer une carte existante pour en extraire les aires urbaines mais

• cela pose des problèmes du point de vue du droit d'auteur de cette carte
• cela ne permet pas de sortir des cartes haute résolution (bon, l'objection saute si on se contente de faire des cartes 400x400 pour Wikipédia)
• il n'est pas évident de récupérer une projection et une échelle correctes.

Bien entendu, on peut prendre Photoshop ou Gimp et charcuter les images dans tous les sens...

Ce qu'il serait éventuellement possible, selon moi: prendre la carte citée, effacer le texte par dessus les dessins des aires, pointer quelques villes de coordonnées connues, en déduire la relation de projection avec les coordonnées en degrés (WGS84), récupérer l'image comme fond de carte.

Mais cela n'est pas si facile. David.Monniaux 04:47, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Nicolas Sarkozy

Félicitations pour les informations biographiques précises. Je dois avouer que j'en avais marre des interventions de ceux qui croyaient important, sur la foi de vagues descriptions de la mère de N.S. comme étant de "Greek-Jewish origins", de décréter que Sarkozy était juif. David.Monniaux 20:54, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Empress Dowager Cixi

Thanks for the edit for "...the de facto ruler of the Manchu Qing Dynasty, ruling over China for most of the period from 1861 to her death in 1908" It is much more accurate now. Tomhongs 11:10, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I'd like to spend a bit of time justifying what is left of my credibility, and also to recognize some of my mistakes. I was born in Nanjing, China and had been educated until high school there. Although I have moved on in a career mostly occupied by sociological studies, I also do a bit of freelance journalism. I do agree that history is not my area of expertise, but I have an ardent interest in reading about it, and it seems to me that is also one of my few interests on Wikipedia. I have a workable command of Chinese, and I was required to learn the Pinyin system in elementary school, and am a supporter of the system myself. My reference to "Jehol" as opposed to "Rehe" was based on my assumption that westernized versions of naming is more desirable when that certain convention is most widely known in the west. For example, Chefoo and Port Arthur can be used in place of Yantai and Lushun; but note in my edits that Zaiheng and Duanhua were not Ts'ai hung and Tuan-wah. I must scold myself for whatever grammatical mistakes I have managed to make. On the matter of the actual content of my edits, I am aware of the inaccurate nature of some western biographies, I had recently been reading Keith Laidler's The Last Empress, and I myself thought much of the information is not credible. For example, the whole plot and prophecy of the Yehenala Woman bringing down the Aisin-Gioro clan. But I drew parallels, campared and contrasted a lot of the later content to what was written about her from Chinese sources (whose credibility I have yet to check), and went ahead to edit an article that desperately needs some work, knowing that experts like yourself would correct my content when it is inaccurate -- that is what Wikipedia is for. I did not, however, expect a total deletion of what I had edited, and I am disappointed in such a sudden removal of my work that took a significant amount of time. I will continue to edit the article, from various sources, and I do ask for your advice in building this article. Colipon+(T) 17:40, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

re: Sarkozy (on Dubaduba's talk page)

Hi,

I've seen your message on User:Dubaduba's talk page regarding the pronunciation of Sarkozy's father's name. It seems he haven't done it yet. I can record its pronunciation, if the article still needs it, but this name is a bit tricky, since "Nagy-Bócsay" is a title of nobility ("of Nagy-Bócsa") and it looks quite odd in the middle of the name. Anyway, just tell me what do you think about it and I'll record the audio.

regards,

Alensha 23:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Montreal

Merger info is very big, and is not all that relevant when telling a summary of a city. I don't see why it can't have its own article, since many articles have sub articles like that much smaller. The point of a main article about a city is to not go into details about any specific part, and all major cities have sub articles. Elfguy 29 June 2005 19:57 (UTC)

Khmer script

I noticed you add the Khmer spelling into articles via graphics. While this is probably the best way right now to ensure people have a chance to actually see it (given the poor support of Khmer in Unicode or existing fonts), I hope you agree that this should only be a temporary workaround. I don't know how you create those graphics, but I'd think you have the Unicode version of that text as well when preparing them - recreating that from the graphic is much more difficult for a non-speaker. Why don't you add that Unicode version at least into the image description, so it can later be used to replace the image? Or maybe even better add it as a comment into the article? I know it was a pain when I tried to find the Khmer spelling of the provinces while adding those infoboxes like in Pailin - [4] has them, but with the old encoding, so it needed a lot of recoding work, and then the font I have doesn't even display all of them correctly. andy 30 June 2005 16:11 (UTC)

Seems like that website uses the same encoding as the link I posted above. Thus it is possible to convert it to unicode, but I have to search again how I did it last time :-) However I haven't yet found how to find words like "Dangrek" on that site - maybe you can prepare a list english-khmer by simply copying the text from that site. I will then try to convert it to unicode, so we have that ready once Khmer in unicode is better supported. andy 5 July 2005 07:29 (UTC)

Image:GuScr.jpg

Image deletion warning

The image Image:GuScr.jpg has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. If you feel that this image should not be deleted, please go there to voice your opinion.

Qing Nobility

I welcome your opinions on the naming convention of Qing Dynasty nobility atWikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)#Qing_Nobility. Colipon+(T) 06:26, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

---

With your permission, Hardouin, I would like to designate the naming conventions officially onto the project page (either the Historical standards or naming conventions, or both); feel free to make your suggestions in terms of the exceptions, please point out the ones I've missed. The conventions are as follows:

For Article Titles

1.All Qing Dynasty nobility of the imperial family line are to be named by given name, i.e. Dorgon (the Prince Rui), Yinxiang (the Prince Yi) etc. With the following important exceptions, deemed necessary by their frequency of usage in English literature:

• • Yixuan will be known as the 1st Prince Chun.
  • Zaifeng will be known as the 2nd Prince Chun.
  • Yikuang will be known as the Prince Qing.
  • Yixin will be known as the Prince Gong.
  • Note:All the above pages must also be redirected from pages titled with their given name.

2.All Qing Dynasty nobility that had received given titles as a distinction for valour and achievement will be titled by their given name, as there titles are seldom attatched to their names in neither Chinese nor English literature.

3.Articles with a hereditary title that is inherited through multiple generations without a change to the title itself, such as Prince Zheng and Prince Yi, will not be about individuals, but rather have a list of every person that had inherited the title, along with the rank and year.

For Introduction Paragraphs

[given name], the [name of princedom] (Chinese:[name in Chinese including Prince title]; Pinyin: [name only]; Wade-Giles: [name only]; Posthumous name (if applicable): [pinyin, Chinese]; [any name changes during lifetime, for example, avoiding an Emperor's taboo]) ([date of birth and death]) of the Manchu [clan name] clan as a noble of the Qing Dynasty born as the [order of birth] surviving son to [father]. His mother was [name] of [clan].

(Perhaps a template would do for the first paragraph)

Example:

Yinti, the Prince Xun (Chinese: 恂郡王胤禵; Pinyin: Yìntí; Wade-Giles: Yin-t'i; Posthumous name: Qín 勤; born Yinzheng 胤祯; Yunti 允禵 to avoid Yongzheng's taboo;) (1688—1767) of the Aisin-Gioro clan was the Kangxi Emperor's fourteenth son who was said to be the favourite to succeed him. He was the brother of Yinzhen born to the same mother, the De Concubine of the Wuya Clan (i.e. the Xiaogong Empress Dowager 孝恭仁太后).

Tell me what you think. Colipon+(T) 00:46, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Origin and history of the name Myanmar

A sub-article has already been created. If you are unable to create a summary, then it would have to remain summary-less until such time as someone else prepares one. Please do not insert the full text into the main article — it takes over half of its total length. See: Azerbaijan, Albania (too lengthy a section actually), etc. for this proportionality I speak of. Also, please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries. Thanks. El_C 17:46, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Also, you may find this (last entry) to be of interest. El_C 00:05, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and I reverted your lead because it was poor English grammar and unnecessarily self-referential (the reader will see the etymology article bellow anyway, as the first section). I still think you can and should summarize it in a single paragraph, it shouldn’t be an insurmountable task. Finally, please consider looking over your Origin and history of the name Myanmar article; copyediting, creating subsections, etc. Thanks again. El_C 00:10, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Map

Hi there. It was no easy task, since first I had to find a suitable map. This map [5] is the only one I found on the net that had the right dimensions and proper political boundaries. Then I used Photoshop to remove the names and change the colors of the original map. The color scheme I used is in line with other maps of Mexico you'll see in Wikipedia, to keep consistency. Finally I created a new map with each delegación highlighted, as you can see here. In all, creating the maps took me about 1 hr, and 20 mins to upload them.

From what I've read, France has many departments. It's going to be a lot of work, so if you need help you're welcome to let me know. -- Rune Welsh ταλκ 17:29, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I had absolutely no idea administrative divisions in France were so complicated. And I was just complaining the other day to a friend when I read about Spain's, hehehe. Anyway, I'd gladly help you with the maps as long as you can point me to the appropriate references and so I don't mess up with information. Don't be afraid to send me links in French. I can understand it fairly well.

Have you considered making this a wikiproject? Drawing up 4000+ maps between two people is certainly not going to be an easy task. And the mere thought of uploading all those images one by one makes me shriver. I think there used to be a bot for uploading images that was used for US counties... but I'm not sure if it exists anymore.

Also, you could start by checking the French wikipedia and see if they have some images there already we could use here. Check here for an example. -- Rune Welsh ταλκ 18:35, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

You're right, putting the black border there is going to be the toughest part of the editting. I'll see what I can do and I'll get back to you when I'm done. Do you want to give the file any special name? That's important too. -- Rune Welsh ταλκ 19:23, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Nice job, but I have a little pet peeve against the choice of colors: the greenish and the redish are too similar to each other. You see, I'm colorblind and had a little trouble figuring out which one is which. I think more solid colors (like the blue in the original map you sent me) would be nicer. -- Rune Welsh ταλκ 20:57, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Check this out and let me know what you think. I've should have done the contour thicker, but when I realised it was too thin I was already half-way through the image. About the colours I was thinking more about increasing the contrast, but you're right: as long as people can notice the difference between arrondisements it shouldn't be too much of an issue. (click on the image to see full size, of course.) Enjoy. -- Rune Welsh ταλκ 22:15, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I'm working on it. It's going to take me some more time because I have to draw more contours and the fact that I'll be away from my computer till Tuesday. I don't think I'll have it finished before Wednesday :( -- Rune Welsh ταλκ 19:47, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Hey there. Just saw the maps on the articles and they look real good. If you still need my help with more maps do let me know :-) -- Rune Welsh ταλκ 14:59, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Frankfurt International Airport

Hello Hardouin. Is there any reason you removed all the images from Frankfurt International Airport or was it accidental? Angela. 13:31, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Frankfurt

I don't understand why you simply reverted those edits on Frankfurt. We've been working hard over the last few days to make the Frankfurt articles ready for a Wikireader -- see Wikipedia:WikiReader/Frankfurt]. I considered that information to be awkwardly written and duplicative. We don't need the precise skyscraper and airport data in the Introduction to the article. I am going to revert it back. If you want to edit the Frankfurt articles to a Wikireader level we'd love your help, but please don't erase the work the whole Wikireader group has been doing. Perhaps there could be a smaller skyscraper section with this information. Tfine80 15:44, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Fine, I don't want to argue. But it would be a bit nicer if you would consider the reasons that we are making changes in clarity and conciseness for the Wikireader for tomorrow only, rather than simply protecting your edits and not helping with the project. Eventually a skyscraper section and transporation section will have to be made anyway. Tfine80 16:28, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I will at some point. I now understand the need for those points and they can be included without putting the numbers themselves and too many details in the introduction. Writing longer sections listing the major skyscrapers and summarizing the entire transportation system is something that I can certainly do at some point. Tfine80 17:03, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

CGD-FRA

Dear Hardouin It was no vandalism.

--Arado 09:18, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Yangon

Hello, you may be interested in voting on whether the article Yangôn should be moved to Yangon. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 21:20, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Data updates

Hey there! I noticed you udated the GNI figures on Economy of the European Union, I was wondering if you had the URL for them so we could add it to the references section, cheers -- Joolz 16:58, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Alsace infobox

Template:Alsace infobox has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Alsace infobox. Thank you. -- User:Docu

Mumbai infobox

Please see: Template talk:Mumbai infobox User:Nichalp/sg 20:04, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Image

Hello, Hardouin! Just wanted to let you know someone wished to know more information about one of the images you uploaded; you may wish to send him an email. See Wikipedia:Help desk#How to contact an article author?. Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 20:59, 17 August 2005 (UTC)Image

Tolosa

Are you sure about Tolosa? I'm pretty sure it's pronounced tuluzo in Occitan. You didn't leave much of an explanation. --Chris S. 01:32, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

French Cities

Why do a template for Bordeauxinfobox if this template is only used on this page? antoinou2958 22:51, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Image deletion

Image deletion warning

Image:BOlogo.gif has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. If you feel that this image should not be deleted, please go there to voice your opinion.

Listed under Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2005 September 12. Thunderbrand 00:54, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

Re: Template:Corse infobox

It was deleted in line with consensus (unanimity, actually) on TfD, see the link in the deletion log. I checked at the time, and have just checked again that the template is not linked to anywhere: it is not in use at all. Corsica has been changed over to use the French region infobox (not by me) and single-use templates are not generally to be used. If you like, I can copy the template code into the article directly if you just want to avoid using that infobox. Doing so (or using the previous template) will mean, however that when/if the region infobox is updated, Corsica's styling will not match the other French region related articles. -Splash 20:00, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Done. However, I would still suggest reverting to the region template to maintain consistency of styles. -Splash 02:49, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

French communes

There is some action at Wikipedia:WikiProject French communes. If you haven't sone so yet, please come and have a look! olivier 12:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Mississipi discharge

Hello... do you remember where you took the discharge values for the Mississipi river article ? --Gloumouth1 16:16, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

France

I suggest you start working on integrating the info into Infobox Country, and don't revert without reason. --Golbez 00:22, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Flag of Midi-Pyrénées

Hi, I've replaced the flag of Midi-Pyrénées you uploaded (Image:I midi pyrenees.jpg) with an SVG version (Image:Flag of Midi-Pyrénées.svg). Therefore I've listed the original for deletion. Hope this is OK. Mysid (talk) 10:25, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:CTC.png

Thanks for uploading Image:CTC.png. I notice the image page currently doesn't specify who created the image, so the copyright status is therefore unclear. If you have not created the image yourself then you need to argue that we have the right to use the image on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the image yourself then you should also specify where you found it, ie in most cases link to the website where you got it, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the image also doesn't have a copyright tag then you must also add one. If you created/took the picture then you can use {{gfdl}} to release it under the GFDL. If you can claim fair use use {{fairuse}}.) See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other images, please check that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of image pages you have edited by going to "Your contributions" from your user page and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thanks so much. Thue | talk 21:23, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Régions d'Outre Mer infobox

The Standardised infobox is not suitable for Régions/Départements d'Outre Mer, as it does not include information on department number, or for that matter, international dialling codes - remember that while there is direct dialling between the DOMs and Metropolitan France, each has its own separate international code - you cannot use +33 to call them from other countries and territories (including New Caledonia, French Polynesia, Wallis and Futuna) Don't discard useful information - incorporate it!

Quiensabe 00:26 UTC 2005-10-31

The comparison with Alaska and Hawaii in the US is not valid - they are treated identically to any state on the US mainland. The DOMs have been grouped with the TOMs because of their anomalous status - that's why there's a special government department for them. While the use of unique internet domains by the Régions/Départements d'Outre Mer may be 'controversial' to you, and may not be widespread, the fact remains that there are differences between these regions and those of metropolitan France, like international dialling codes. These regions do not use +33 - that's not controversial, that's fact!

Quiensabe 20:48 UTC 2005-11-11

This is what I meant by government department - the Ministère de l'Outre-Mer I used the word 'department' instead of 'ministry' as I was also talking about the US, where the 'ministry' isn't used as a political term.

I have no problems understanding the concept of the Régions/Départements d'Outre Mer, but there are differences between constitutional theory and practical reality - owing to geography, they are not quite identical to metropolitan France.

Quiensabe 04:13 UTC 2005-11-12

Statue of Henry IV

In the article about Henry IV, you say that you corrected "a gross error," in regards to the statue of Henry IV in Paris. The original article said that the statue was preserved by the Parisian mobs, a fact supported by A History of Western Society a legitimate text book of European history. You changed this article to say that the statue was torn down by the Parisian mob, but was later rebuilt. I am not accusing you of any inaccuracy, but was inquiring of your source in a quest for truth, a truth you seemed sure of in your comment to the change. The Houghton Mifflin textbook says, "[Henry IV] was the only king whose statue the Paris crowd did not tear down in the Revolution of 1789."

I called it a gross error because it is a well known fact for anyone with some knowledge of Paris history and architecture. There are many references that back up what I said. A quick search on the net retrieved this webpage [6] which states that the statue was melted during the revolution and replaced with a perfect copy in 1818. If I recall corectly, there is an inscription in Latin at the base of the statue that is dated 1818 (MCCMXVIII) and that says that King Louis XVIII had the statue re-erected. Don't believe everything that is written in American or English books about France, there are lots of inacuracies and myths. Hardouin 12:27, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Han Wudi and references

I am preparing to nominate Emperor Wu of Han to be a featured article (note Wikipedia:Peer review/Emperor Wu of Han), but there are a few improvements to be made. Since you added the section on names, can you provide a list of references you used? Thanks, --Jiang 08:04, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Paris infobox

I understand that the changes I made to the Paris infobox made it different from other cities, but do you have any suggestions for how to make it smaller? It's just too long. An infobox is handy when it quickly summarises information for the user, but the Paris one, divided as it is into the 'Commune' and 'Aire urbaine' sections, is really quite unwieldy. Do you have any suggestions? Stevage 18:27, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

List of the world's busiest airports by international passenger traffic

Hi, Do you have source (URL) in List of the world's busiest airports by international passenger traffic? I couldn't find it on the ACI web site (only total passenger trafic is given on [7]). Thanks. Thbz 23:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Never mind, I just found it [8]... Thbz 00:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. But I think that, for that reason, the source needed to be mentioned. Which it is now, so everything's OK :) Thbz 00:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Metropolitan area

Hi,

Why are you using this phrase "metropolitan area" everywhere? More appropriate terms are, depending on the context: "Paris and its suburbs" (everyday language), "aire urbaine" or "unité urbaine" (statistics), "région" or "Île-de-France" (administrative organization). Thanks. Thbz 13:42, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree on using "metropolitan area" as a rough translation of "aire urbaine". But not as a translation of "Île-de-France". Writing that Franciliens are the inhabitants of the metropolitan area is simply wrong; Franciliens are the inhabitants of Île-de-France, even those of don't live in the aire urbaine of Paris. (BTW, si tu es français, autant continuer dans notre langue) Thbz 14:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Reverts to Paris

Hi, I noticed you reverted some copyediting I did to the demographics section of Paris: "Recent proposals by Paris' new mayor, Bertrand Delanoë to gather the most renowned architects in the world to build skyscrapers on the outskirts of the city center (but inside the city proper)" and "It is feared that the city of Paris is turning into an embalmed museum".

Do you have sources to indicate the claim that the architects are really the most renowned in the world? Also, what is an "embalmed museum". On google I can only find a single occurrence of this odd phrase that isn't Wikipedia. So, would you mind explaining why you have reverted this change? Thanks. Stevage 13:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

About the architects, it is Bertrand Delanoë himself who said he wanted to gather the best architects in the world to build aesthetically acclaimed towers. I am just translating his words. As for "embalmed", again I am just translating the French word embaumé often used in reference to the muséificiation of Paris. Check for instance [9]. Hardouin 14:16, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: best architects in the world, that's exactly why you need a reference. It sounds like hyperbole without a reference - now that you say that Delanoe said it himself, then good - just put a quote/reference in. As for "embalmed museum" ... it's just not right...museum is probably fine by itself, but if the concept of embalment strikes you as important, by all means quote something directly, maybe making reference to the original word. But please don't just revert changes made by others without discussion. Stevage 22:48, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I made changes without discussion - normal. You reverted changes without discussion - not normal. You made claims in the text without reference - normal. I removed unreferenced claims in the text - normal. You reverted changes, reinstated unreferenced claims - not normal. It's about good faith - I assume any text you write is in good faith. If you revert anything other than vandalism without discussion, I can't assume you're still acting in good faith - you could just be being pig headed. Anyway. The only other thing is, just because the mayor claims the architects are the best in the world doesn't mean anything. There are so many spurious "best in the world" or "world famous" claims on WP, the last thing we need is a few more. Stevage 23:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey, easy, I'm not accusing you of POV. Actually there are big efforts in Wikipedia at the moment to increase the amount of referencing, since the Siegenthaler incident. There are even proposals on the mailing list to revert any change not backed up by a reference! So it's not unreasonable to have lots of references, even for seemingly trivial non POV details like that - see the featured article Shoe polish. Stevage 23:24, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Cool, I can see where you're coming from. As I see it, you're an expert on Paris and get "offended" when someone makes an inaccurate statement. My "expertise" here is techical writing (it's my job), and I get "offended" when anyone destroys writing that I've put time into. As I've said before, I know little about Paris - but I get the most out of Wikipedia when working on sections I'm not an expert on, because then I end up learning about them. See my contributions to German grammar :)) Anyway I hope we can keep working productively together.Stevage 00:15, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Paris administration

Actually I didn't remove the fact that there was no mayor before 1977, I actually moved it and reworded it to the end of the preceding paragraph. I think we should leave ThePromenader to edit his image if he wants. I don't think the "original research" aspect is a major problem...it would be good if it was fixed (or justified), but too much effort to manually edit the image, I think (well, for me anyway).

Well, go ahead and edit the image if you like. I'd rather not go editing someone else's image, especially when I really don't have good grounds for doing it. If it was an area I was expert on, then maybe, but Paris urban build up is just something I don't know anything about. Stevage 12:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Paris map

Hi! Good on you for editing the map. If you don't mind making further changes, it might be worth colouring Paris, the petite couronne and the grande couronne differently, with an appropriate legend. Then the map would really serve two purposes at once. Otherwise yeah I'll just put it straight into the article - the vast majority of TP's original work is still there. Stevage 00:45, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Paris history edits

We seem to be working well again - I appreciate your edits when you fill in the (numerous) gaps in my knowledge exposed by reediting :) Stevage 01:24, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Fermat's home

Hello. I'm writing an article about Pierre de Fermat and I want to know where you found this image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tour_fermat.jpg before use it. Thanks. --Emijrp 16:46, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I can see that you uploaded this one [10],say me the source too, please. --Emijrp 16:48, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Image:France colonial Empire10.png

I uploaded your map on http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:France_colonial_Empire10.png , can you explain your source, to know if this map have to be improve or not. Thanks your for this map :] Yug (talk) 15:28, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

By "source" I mean "references" (I think it is the same word in english and french), I already seen others maps on Wikipedia showing other shape for Canada. Myself, I don't know what are the true border, but I think we need "sources" ~ Yug (talk) 16:27, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

==London Page== I noticed your edit comments, and have reported the user who removed your info. to the Admin. who issued their last warning. Best wishes, Lion King 14:08, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi. Have taken a look, it seems to be a poor but good faith contribution, however I will watch any further contributions, if any vandalism is commited I will report it OK? Lion King 03:27, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Paris RER

I'm sorry Hardouin but I disagree with your idea about mixing up RER and suburban rails. When the RATP invented the project of the RER, it's been thought as an express metro, and that's what made it successful. The SNCF addition which was actually simply about connecting suburban rails one another have all been failures. You see this well in comparing the success of the lines A and B with the awckward lines C and D.

It's true that the SNCF is currently trying to make its suburban network feel closer to its RER network. But I don't believe that's the way to follow. If the SNCF wants to be succesful in its RER network, it should get inspired about what made the lines A and B so successful.

For instance, I fail to see the point about serving line C further than Bretigny-sur-Orge and line D further than Corbeil-Essonnes. Those parts of lines should indeed be served by SNCF Ile-de-France lines and not by the RER, as the traffic is insignificant on those portions. Furthermore, the line D should add few more stations inside Paris, as at Porte de Charenton or Bercy. And of course, it should improve its material and rolling stock. If it was only about me, I would let the RATP managing alone the whole RER network. Of course, all this are only about my personal opinion.

To get a more objective stance, the RER network and the SNCF Ile-de-France network are as much separate entities as are the RER network and the metro network. Adding suburban rails in the RER map can only add confusion to this. Hence, I'm sorry but I disapprove such an idea.

Paris GDP

Ok. I had missed the page about economy. I just added a footnote to redirect the reader to the discussion in Economy of Paris. Since the article about Paris is already too long, I don't think the list of other metropolitan areas is fundamental here since the reader can find it in the sub-article. Thbz 12:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Paris template logo

The "Coat of arms" logo is listed in Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tag with the following comment: "1.5 Images of unknown usability - The following tags do not adequately indicate whether they can be used on Wikipedia. Please add source and licence information, if not provided, and a fair use rationale if the image is being used under fair use."

In other words, it doesn't seem really usable on Wikipedia. Furthermore, my semantic skills are not good enough to determine whether the Mairie de Paris logo is a coat of arms or not... I'm afraid I'm not good enough to create a (good) stylised image (even the Eiffel Tower I made took some time playing with Gimp).

The best image, IMHO, would be some small shape representing the metropolitan area (the same as in Chicago, BTW). But a simple photograph is not necessarily bad; many templates use photographs. What about two small pictures: one on the left with the Eiffel Tower (Paris), the other on the right with the Arche de la Défense (the suburbs)? Note that I have nothing against another version of the coat of arms (simplified or not, as long as it represents the coat of arms and not the Mairie itself). Thbz 23:30, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Arrondissement of Saint-Denis

Thanks for that - I'll try to complete the job over the weekend. Dlyons493 Talk 18:40, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Done - you might like to cast an eye over it. Dlyons493 Talk 21:32, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

France

Despite your pro-multicultural and multiracial view of indigenous French and European peoples, dont put facts like 40 %of French being descended from migrants without a source. You wonder why there are racial tensions in France, maybe because the indgenous French people want to maintain their homeland and unique cultural and racial identity. Each time you try to put this claim up, I will delete it unless you show me a valid source. Forza Europa. Epf 04:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Umm, INED doesn't show me anything. Thats hardly a reliable source of information, but I will leave the 40 % statement remain on the article. I still want you to provide me with an internet link to the "facts" from INED that you speak of. In the meantime I am going to find other sources which refute and question the validity of the ludicrous 40% figure.

Again, the statisitics on that web page have no valid or reliable source of government information. I've already uncovered the fact that the government of France doesn't conduct or release statistics on ethnicity, race or ethnic origin/ancestry. It is also easy to notice that [11] is a website with a particular bias towards multi-culturalism and multi-racialism in France and this is not surprising considering the current tensions in French society. Just out of curiosity, are you from France and if so, what are your ethnic origins ? Epf 14:37, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

If you wish to know just how homogenous the indigenouns French people in France are in a physical sense as well as cultural, I have links i can show you if you're interested. Epf 14:44, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

In 1850, alot more than 40 percent of people in both the US and Canada had parents or grandparents who were not born there. Also, considering you haven't specified 1850 in the article as to when France is comparable to the US and Canada, you are implying they are comparable in modern times. Almost all Americans and Canadians are descended from immigrants (since the native populations are so small) which is much larger than your 40% claim for France which is NOT supported by a VALID and RELIABLE source and therefore presentes a biased perspective. Epf 16:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Until you can get a valid source (which is practically impossible due to the lack in availability of this sort of data from the French government) that is cited within this claim in the article, you have no argument in this matter. Epf 16:15, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

HARDOUIN, read this to realize the faults in your POV and also, keep your POV to yourself and not in the French-related articles !!!

Canada and the US were built by immigrants. France and the indigenous French people have been there since the nation was created. The majority of the US and Canadian population isnt descended from the native peoples of this land and therefore predominantly from immigrants who arrived in largest numbers between the 18th and 20th centuries. In France, the the indigenous people have been there LONG before the 19th century when waves of new migrants came and French people in France can trace their roots back thousands of years there. We're not talking about going back 10,000 years to when the first organized human farming societiese started to form. I'm talking about the French people who can trace their origins back to the creation of the French nation by Charlegmagne and hence are the indigenous peoples of that land. The majority of people in France are of the French ethnic group and the indigenous people of that land. Here, in the NEW world, the only people who can trace their origins back as long as French people in France can trace their origings back there, are Native Americans who unfortunately form a very small percentage of the population due to European colonization. French-Canadians (who have been here for about 200-300 years now) can trace their family roots back to the time of Charlemagne in France, can these new immigrants ? NO. Your 40 % claim (still not a valid source for it) can not comapre with any country in the new world for that matter, whether it be the US, Canada, Brazil, Australia, Argentina, Etc.. How else can I draw it out to you ? Epf 20:14, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

You should also take note that several of the ancestry in these people is to a lesser degree than their respective French ancestries and these are few examples of certain noteworthy French people. Also, the INED and Quid sources are non-existent on the France and France Demographics pages and Quid is not a trusted reference encyclopedia considering their facts on ethnicity have no reference/source. Just because some noteworthy people from France had mixed ancestry with their French ancestry doesn't prove the majority of the population is like that. What about the even larger list of notable French people who are of mainly French descent ? Epf 23:10, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

So many French people have foreign ancestry ? Yes a significant minority do but 40 % is an exaggerated number and one that you could of made up yourself all I know since you dont have a valid sorce for it. No data has been collected by the French government on the issue of ethnicity and race so the number of French with foreign ancestry is unknown. One thing we do know, from anthropological studies and gentics is that the majority of the population is ethnic French and descended primarily from the pre-Gallic peoples of France who mixed with the Gallo-Romans and later the Franks.

I think you also need to realize that although migration started in the 1850's in France, in the Americas at that time, almost all of the non-native American population was already descended from immigrants of the 18th and 17th centuries. The majority of people in the Americas came during the massive migrations between 1850 till present and those migrations were an incredibly larger number than those who went to France. When you include the fact that the majority of the population before that was already descended from recent European migrants, almost the whole population is descended form migrants from the past 300 years. This is NOT the case in France. There were a significant amount of migrants who started to come from the 19th century onward, but not as large as the numbers seen in the Americas. The migrants to France integrated with a population who had already been there for over a thousand years and were the indigenous French people. This, hopefully, finally shows that France still isnt comparable to the countries of the New World. If you still don't get this, then you really need to get caught up in your history. Epf 04:59, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Your latest Paris revert splurge

Just wanted to let you know that I have filed for mediation, and the Paris page has a new addition that it will wear until you can cite factual sources speaking of Paris in the terms you use. I should have done this months ago. THEPROMENADER 23:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Stop removing the "disputed" tag.

For the second time, you will leave the disputed tag where it is. You will prove that your misleading writ is factual truth and common usage, you will allow your debunked theories to be corrected, otherwise you will leave the page as it is. The argument "he's the only one" may apply to individualist behaviour such as page appropriation and reverting (such as your own), but in a question of one contesting evident factual error and POV it is a silly one to make. "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed." There is a dispute. Everything I contest is detailed in the talk page. Stop grasping at straws in your desperate efforts to waylay resistance. Answer to the above conditions or leave the page as it is. THEPROMENADER 08:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

For a THIRD time, you will answer to the disputed "facts" where the dispute is, and the dispute will end. You have answered to nothing until present, so you will leave the tag where it is. THEPROMENADER 13:35, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

For a FOURTH time: leave the tag where it is. You have answered to nothing and changed nothing. Your writ is of your own invention and comes from no citable reference; if this is false, you have yet to prove it. You use the term "Greater Paris" but once, and when you do you misuse it. Stevage also admitted he knew little on the subject - this is not the case with me. Stop grasping at straws. You will answer to your misconceptions, allow improvement or you prolong the dispute. Period. I will continue to replace the tag as long as you remove it without fulfilling the above conditions, so don't bother. You're only making yourself look more foolish and accomplishing nothing. And answer to the Paris dispute on the Paris Talk page. THEPROMENADER 23:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

PS: Here's some reading for you: Wikipedia:NPOV_dispute and Wikipedia:Accuracy_dispute. Your writing qualifies for almost all of both tag's requisites (when only one is needed to place it). Also read carefully how to resolve disputes - namely verification - and the reasons why it is wrong to remove the tag without dispute resolution. THEPROMENADER 00:10, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Whoa, you two. Time to chill. Both of you. I don't even see Hardouin's answers but I bet he needs to chill too :) Edit warring is not fun. Maybe time for a little mediation with an experienced mediator? Maybe there's a WP page where you can get some advice, find a friendly disinterested party etc? But this went beyond petty a long time ago. Seriously. Good luck sorting it out. Stevage 00:22, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

French riots

I've just read an excellent article on to why there is such problems with regards to ethnicity in France. France has taken a unique assimilationist view, with regards to ethnic origins, not seen in any other European country [12]. This is not to say the indigenous French peoples (langue d'oil and langue d'oc people, Bretons, Basques) don't exist but it is to say the country does not reflect ethnic identifications in government policy. Spain however (which you compared France to) has not taken this approach and the Catalans, Castilians, Galicians and Basques all are indigenous ethnic groups who maintain their identities in state policy. Immigrants to Spain are treated in a more multi-ethnic manner (although prejudice/racism is still vibrant unfortunately) seen in practically all other countries with the exception of France and 19th/early 20th century America. This should settle whatever previous quarrels we had over related topics. Epf 10:35, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Paris statistics

Thanks for the info. What can I say - I followed perfectly. I wish I understood TP's viewpoint better so I could see for myself which is "right". From what you have said though, it would seem to be perfectly reasonable to include a very short paragraph early in the article that says "Some people use the term 'metropolitan area' to refer to Ile de France, while others use it to mean a statistical boundary known as the 'aire urbaine'. These terms are 97% the same, but this article will endeavour where possible to make clear which meaning is used."

I cannot for the life of me see why this choice of terms could possibly cause so much angst. Stevage 16:15, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Paris Disinformation

Hardouin,

I can't at all appreciate some of the misleading "explanations" you left on Stevage's talk page.

• The "almost the same" calculations are your own; although both numbers are available on the iNSEE site, I have never seen any publication or organisation juggle them in this way. Why would they need to? Choose IDF or aire urbaine - Period. Being "almost the same" don't make them exchangable. Period.
• Adding "as the figures show" after the above makes it sound official. The IDF and aire urbaine census numbers are official, but your personal calculation is not.
• "When economists and demographers do not possess data for the aire urbaine of Paris" - What is this, what are you suggesting? It looks as if you are again trying to make apples as oranges by putting them in the same phrase: demographers use either IDF or aire urbaine figures, and economists use IDF and departemental figures. Period. Do not put words in other people's mouths.
• "wants to replace the aire urbaine/metropolitan area of Paris and replace them with "Île-de-France"" - this is flatly untrue. Do not put words in my mouth. Read the Economy edit you reverted so many times if you need proof.
• Île-de-France is an administrative region like a province or a county. How can you suggest replacing this with a statistical area? I
• I have to chuckle at your telling us foreigners what foreigners understand best.
• "French people themselves almost always refer to Île-de-France as the "région parisienne" - this is true.
• "...because in their mind the Île-de-France région is simply the metropolitan area of Paris." - How can you associate this with the former phrase? If I was to apply an adjective to this, I would call it "bald-faced." Most French people don't know what an "aire urbaine" is, let alone a metropolitan area. Most aren't even aware of the concept.

And why are you not discussing the Paris article on the Paris talk page? In light of the above, perhaps I can understand, but this is not normal practice. THEPROMENADER 19:04, 14 January 2006 (UTC)