Talk:Birmingham

Music Classical

The Birmingham Triennial Music Festival took place from 1784 - 1912 and was considered the grandest of its kind throughout Britain. Music was written for the festival by Mendelssohn, Gounod, Sullivan, Dvorak, Bantock and most notably Elgar, who wrote four of his most famous choral pieces for Birmingham.

Erm, who was Bantock, since there doesn't seem to be an article for him? Is it supposed to be Bartok, by any chance? -- Arwel 23:10, 7 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, you are right, now changed and indeed there is already an article on Bartok. Nick

Granville Bantock (1868 - 1946): [1]. On [2] we read "following the premiere of Part I at the Birmingham Triennial Festival in 1906..." Andy Mabbett 18:05, 15 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, i wasn't sure of the Bantock connection but makes sense now! You have given life to Bantock on Wikipedia! Nick.

Nick Mason

To the person that keeps removing nick mason from pink floyd, i have put a lot of bloody hard work into researching brum artists and Nick Mason was most definately born in brum, hence he is from Birmingham, if you have a problem with this please keep it to yourself, Wikipedia is based on fact... fact, Nick mason was born in brum, he's from birmingham! we all have to respect one anothers work on here otherwise Wikipedia will end up becoming an archaic, intolerable wrangle of worms with everyone at each others throats! And i certainly wont bother adding to it as i have better things to do.

Thanks Nick

Some searches on Google give several websites that all concur that Nick Mason was born in Birmingham. It could still be a common misconception, but I'd just put that in, and if anyone claims he *wasn't* born there, they'd have to explain. Have a nice day! Kim Bruning 15:09, 15 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Kim, Nick Mason was 100% born in birmingham and it is not just on the internet but on official biographys of the drummer, the simplest thing would be to say "Nick Mason from pink floyd was born in Birmingham" there doesnt need anymore said really. Saying that Birmingham had no effect on his life??? Well where else would he have been born, obviuosly being born somewhere has a profound effect on ones life in a sense that it is part of ones identity, people drive many miles to ensure their childeren are born in a certain country or place. [abuse removed Andy Mabbett 18:01, 15 May 2004 (UTC)] Thanks Nick.[reply]

It looks to me like you are destroying his work too - for example, you keep reverting to a version with a spelling mistake in the 2nd paragraph. Don't just revert back to your version, make your one single correction. Morwen 17:58, May 15, 2004 (UTC)

Morwen, Andy Mabot is now editing vast swathes of my work, which is why i am reverting back all the time. What else can i do to protect what i have written, and i will protect it.

Thanks Nick.

If you don't want your work mercilessly edited, you shouldn't be using Wikipedia. We don't 'own' articles here, its collaborative. As a first step, I suggest you talk about this civilly - I'm not sure that accusing people of being 'anti-Birmingham' is helpful - for all you know Mr. Mabbett is from Birmingham. Morwen 18:07, May 15, 2004 (UTC)

Put it on your own website. Andy Mabbett 18:06, 15 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

No thanks Andy, i have written all of the Birmingham Culture on Birmingham main page and yes, you are free to edit my work :) but edit does not mean delete which is what you have been doing ;) why don't you put it on YOUR own website, and Morwen, i have already tried discussing this point but Andy isn't interedted in other peoples opinions... whatsoever, i keep reverting the page because he deletes vast swathes of my work and to have a heading that says "People that were born in Birmingham but never made a home there" is just plain silly, why don't we have "People that have looked at Birminghma on a map and thought about moving there, but never did because Nick Mason was born there but we're not sure if it had an effect on his life"

Nick

Transport, History and Economy

I think that a brief run down of Brum history could be kept on the main page with a link to the wider facts, the economy should be kept where it is and transport and most definately Government should have a seperate page, lets keep this interesting.

Residents?

Is that meant to be a list of residents, or a list of people born in Birmingham? If the former, there are some that could be removed. If the latter, there are many that could be added. Also, should each member of Duran Duran be listed separately, or could the group as a whole be given one entry in the list? --Auximines 12:11, 11 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

- - - What's the difference between "residents" and people who were born there? By definition, a "resident" of a city is a person who lives there, whether for a day, a month, or 80 years. What's the difference? In America, there are a TON of celebrities who only lived in their birth city/town for a short time. Many celebrities have resided in and been influenced by Hollywood and/or NYC, but that doesn't negate the fact that they were born somewhere else.****

By which logic (sic), we should list every musician who's ever appeared in the city, and spent the night here. Andy Mabbett 19:06, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Good point about Duran Duran, trouble is they have such an immense fan base and Simon Le Bon is from London. Best left i rekon, famous residents should stay i believe, the problem is that many city's claim a certain person is from their city but in reallity they just lived there which isnt quite the same, it a tough one... what does London and Manchester etc have re this? Nick

Protected

I've had to protect this page now. Please see Wikipedia:Protection_policy.

In particular, see this bit 'The protection of a page on any particular version is not meant to express support for that version and requests should therefore not be made that the protected version be reverted to a different one.' Morwen 18:47, May 15, 2004 (UTC)

Andy and Nick

Ok folks. So the discussion is about whether or not Nick Mason should be mentioned as being born in Birmingham.

The 2 positions I've seen from you folks are:

It can be objectively established as fact that he was born in Birmingham, we have objectively established as fact that he was born in Birmingham, so it is a factually correct fact that he was born in Birmingham. Okay, that sounds like a fairly reasonable position.
Well, Nick Mason might have been born in Birmingham, but that's where it ends. By all other means he learnt his art somewhere else [some googleing by me got me Regent Street Polytechnic in Londen, IIRC], and practices it elsewhere. Mentioning him in the Birmingham article at all is more likely to be confusing than anything else. Well, from a certain didactic point of view, that kind of makes sense too.

Andy rejected one possible solution I tried to do by editing by reverting that edit. (The solution I tried was to add a small disclaimer to the list).

One other solution might be to simply add a comment after Nick Masons' name: "Though born in Birmingham, his music was more influenced by his time in London".

- - - I don't get why this matters--see what I wrote above about American celebrities being influenced by NYC and Hollywood, even though they were born somewhere else. A list of residents doesn't have anything to do with whether or not people were "influenced by" (whatever that means) the city.****

Would you folks have any other ideas? Please discuss them here before editing the page. I look forward to hearing what you have to say! Kim Bruning 19:12, 15 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

He didn't simply "learn his art" somewhere else - he never lived here. His mother took him home (not in Birmingham) a few days after he was born. Should we start researching the long list of other people, born in Birmingham, but with no other connection to the City, who later achieved some fame or notoriety? And who's Andrew? Andy Mabbett 19:16, 15 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Did s/Andrew/Andy . How embarresing :-/ fixed now. Kim Bruning 21:09, 15 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, sorry for all this confusion. Basically the problem here is that when i first came to wikipedia there was literally a few scraps of information on Birminghams culture, economy and architecture. I have spent weeks building this up, researching, editing, confirming facts so as not to provide miss-information (This can be veryfied by angela and g-man), although i am not registered i asumed that the way a deletion or major structural edit is performed is to discuss first then reach a sensible agreement as this is respectful of others hard work. Well, obviously since andy has been to this page a massive amount of my work has given Brum a bit more of an idenity, Andy has taken it upon himself (without ever discussing here) to delete many areas of my work and even change-rearange introductions like for instance the Nick Mason issue. Regarding this, Nick Mason was born in Birmingham and i have never heard that he was taken away by his mother straight away, even if this were to be true, where you are born does have an impact on your life in the sense that it is part of your identity, the fact is that when i created Nick Mason link here, there was already a page written on him and guess what the first line of his biography reads (as does thousands of other sites on Nick Mason on the net) Nick Mason, born Birmingham, England. So is Andy going to contest all these other sites and official biographys across the world just because he believes that where you are born is "as relevant as driving through a city) No i'm afraid it's not insignificant where you are born, i was born in Birmingham and moved away very early on but i still refer to myself as being from Birmingham even if not 100% it is still my place of Birth which i am proud of, how do we know that Nick Mason is not proud to have been born in Bham? If Andy believes otherwise then please can we see the evidence, surely we can asume that he is happy with this fact as it is included in the introduction to every single biography on T.V. or internet i have ever seen. Surely i have some leverage here considering that i have single handedly created the Birmingham music section? Andy has simply come along andedited bits of my work which i am happy about, no problem such as the correction of Bartock, but other inclusions like the Grand Hotel where he has added on... the currently empty and recently listed Grand Hotel... surely this is too much information, the fact is its called the Grand Hotel and its grade II listed, thats all we need to know! Also Andy has removed the middle section of my Hip Hop history of Birmingham, why? Another thing Andy has now moved and part deleted is the list of Birmingham Atractions, i worked hard to create this and his reasoning is that they are already on the page, well what if someone comes to Wikipedia and just quickly wants to see what atractions are in the city ready for a visit, they arent going to know that they have to read through the whole page to find out the atractions, i would like this kept as it is as it makes perfect sense, it worked before but now just looks sparse when you click on it from the main menu. Also, Andy has changed... 'The Industrial Revolution began in Birmingham and the Midlands' to 'The Industrial Revolution flourished in Birmingham' it didn't only flourish, Birmingham was the epicentre of the industrial revolution that began in the Midlands and spread across the world, Wikipedia already has an article on this and it clearly states that the Industrial Revolution began in the Midlands, from Iron Bridge to Brum, so on. I would like this reverted also. Again, a change to the Beginning of Modern Music section... I wrote, 'Birmingham has had a profound effect on modern music with...' (or words to that effect), Andy has now chosen to remove it completely, why? It's True! Overall i am not happy that Andy hasn't discussed this all first here before making these major changes. I regard myself as being from Birmingham and i am very proud of it too which has inspired me to put in so much effort into the page, if Andy wishes to edit my work then obviously thats fine but surely it is respectful to discuss it first and reach an amicable agreement. In my opinion Nick Mason should read...

'Birmingham Born Nick Mason is the longest running member of Pink Floyd.' Other Birmingham singer/songwriters include... etc etc.

This is factual and if someone wants to know where he was educated then they can proudly put that on the London page or just click on his name where they will see that he was born in Birmingham but educated in London. I rest my case. Nick.

- - - I AGREE! If you can't mention that the dude was born in Birmingham ON the Birmingham page, then where else can you mention this important fact?****

In fact, after browsing through the page i can honestly say that i have provided 95% of all content for the following:

Removed my own text due to error 19.05.04 ;) Nick

Nick.

I must agree with Nick, If the bloke was born in Birmingham then I dont see any reason why that should not be mentioned.

And Andy please do not go around deleting other peoples hard work without giving any explanation it's very rude, Nick has done much good work here and improved this article no end. That's much more than can be said for your constant adding of unnecesary sub-headings all over the place. G-Man 22:46, 16 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks G-Man, Andy has even removed some of the content of my replies also because he see's it as a personal attack on him which is really, really, reaaaallly annoying because i do not lower myself to insult anyone, especially a person i have never met but i do think that in my opinion it is extremely rude to simply delete someones work... for whatever reason, without having the decency to discuss it first on here, i wouldn't do it and i don't expect others to do it either. After having said this i'm sure that some of his edits to my work are valid and worthwhile so i don't want to start a hate campaign but i would apreciate 5 changes that will restore part of what Andy has changed:

1. Andy should discuss on here any changes he may decide to make TO ANY WORK THAT IS NOT HIS OWN on this page so that we can talk it through fairly first. (common sense)

2. Nick Mason is included in the Birmingham Music section as an add-on in the following context: Birmingham born Nick Mason is the longest running member of Pink Floyd. (as i said before if anyone wants to know where he was educted they can click on the biography that already exists for this person and they will see that he was born in Brum and educated in London, i don't have a problem with that.)

3. Andy's add-on's to the Rotunda and Grand Hotel are removed as they seem superflous to my architecture section.

4. Andy's removal of the many attractions that i took the time to research and create are restored completely and if he feels that they are duplicated on the page maybe we can remove the atractions that are listed in the intro. My reason for this is that someone who just wants to see what the city has to offer will click on the link from the top of the page and it now looks like it did when i first visited the page... sparse, which is very miss-leading.

5. The Industrial revolution bit is restored, or even to this if Andy prefers: 'The Industrial revolutuion began in the Midlands with Birmingham playing a major role due to it's central location, this allowed many business etc...'

The Hip Hop section was getting a little out of control so i am fine with the deletion he made of my 'middle section' but i can maybe include a 'history of Birmingham Hip-Hop link where the other work can be re-created, the only problem is that i haven't saved the work he deleted so i will need to fish around for it but i don't mind that.

The other points can be debated and talked through as i can't be bothered to discuss all the changes he has made to my work right now, but i did notice that he went into overdrive on editing my work before the page was locked but thats fine also.

Removed my own text due to error 19.05.04 ;) Nick

Ok, so can i asume that the following changes will be reverted/restored when the page is un-protected shortly, please can we vote on this.

1. Andy should discuss on here any changes he may decide to make TO ANY WORK THAT IS NOT HIS OWN on this page so that we can talk it through fairly first.

2. Nick Mason is included in the Birmingham Music section as an add-on in the following context: Birmingham born Nick Mason is the longest running member of Pink Floyd. (as i said before if anyone wants to know where he was educted they can click on the biography that already exists for this person and they will see that he was born in Brum and educated in London, i don't have a problem with that.)

3. Andy's add-on's to the Rotunda, Grand Hotel and St. Phillip's Cathedral are removed as they seem superflous to the architecture section.

4. Andy's removal of the many attractions that i took the time to research and create are restored completely and if he feels that they are duplicated on the page maybe we can remove the atractions that are listed in the intro. My reason for this is that someone who just wants to see what the city has to offer will click on the link from the top of the page and it now looks like it did when i first visited the page... sparse, which is very miss-leading.

5. The Industrial revolution bit is restored, or even to this if Andy prefers: 'The Industrial revolutuion began in the Midlands with Birmingham playing a major role due to it's central location, this allowed many business etc...'

bearing in mind that i wrote the above facts and they remained for several weeks before Andy stumbled across them, I don't wish to fall out with Andy so this seems the fairest way to resolve this and restore a small amount of what he has deleted.

Thanks Nick

Um, no, he isn't.... Morwen 22:21, May 18, 2004 (UTC)

That would be a different page. Only this page is locked. And with ~~~~ Morwen 22:33, May 18, 2004 (UTC)

Removed my own text due to error 19.05.04 ;) Nick

So just to re-emphasise the points i would like reverting when the page is unlocked:

1. Andy should discuss on here any changes he may decide to make TO ANY WORK THAT IS NOT HIS OWN on this page so that we can talk it through fairly first.

2. Nick Mason is included in the Birmingham Music section as an add-on in the following context: Birmingham born Nick Mason is the longest running member of Pink Floyd. (as i said before if anyone wants to know where he was educted they can click on the biography that already exists for this person and they will see that he was born in Brum and educated in London, i don't have a problem with that.)

3. Andy's add-on's to the Rotunda, Grand Hotel and St. Phillip's Cathedral are removed as they seem superflous to the architecture section.

4. Andy's removal of the many attractions that i took the time to research and create are restored completely and if he feels that they are duplicated on the page maybe we can remove the atractions that are listed in the intro. My reason for this is that someone who just wants to see what the city has to offer will click on the link from the top of the page and it now looks like it did when i first visited the page... sparse, which is very miss-leading.

5. The Industrial revolution bit is restored, or even to this if Andy prefers: 'The Industrial revolutuion began in the Midlands with Birmingham playing a major role due to it's central location, this allowed many business etc...'

Thanks Nick

I use Wikipedia quite often as an information source, and being local I found the Birmingham page particually interesting and full of facts and useful links. This is the first time I've joined in with any discussions on here, and after a bit of reading I was amazed to find out that the majority of the Birmingham page's contents are due to the hard work of one person. I'm with you Nick, you've every right to feel agrieved that someone can just come along willy nilly and erase your work at will. You've obviously put a lot of time and effort into your research about everything Birmingham, and your contribution should be rewarded, not deleted by someone who can't offer anything in return.

Concerning the Nick Mason issue, he was born in Birmingham...fact. It was not, as far as I know, stated in any other way, so why is there such a issue with it. He obviously achieved great things elsewhere, but he was born in Birmingham, end of story.

sorry my first post portrays as a moaning so and so....but some things you need to get off your chest:)

positive and informative posts from now on, I promise.....Charango!!

"I was amazed to find out that the majority of the Birmingham page's contents are due to the hard work of one person." So would I be, if that were true. Andy Mabbett 23:50, 21 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I think the fact that Andy has not replied to any of these comments reveals that he realises that he doesn't have a leg to stand on regarding the Nick Mason issue. Most famous people achieved the things that made them famous in places other than where they were born.

I think Andy is generally a good contributor but he is wrong about this.

Regarding the Industrial Revolution, I think it is a bit of a stretch to say that the IR "began" in Brum. From memory I think Ironbridge is generally recognised as being the birthplace of the IR, which is some 40 miles from Birmingham. Although Birmingham was certainly one of the world's first industrial cities. G-Man 22:34, 21 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

If you " think the fact that Andy has not replied to any of these comments reveals that he realises that he doesn't have a leg to stand on regarding the Nick Mason issue" then you're deluding yourself; (and ignoring the comments I've already made on the subject). Andy Mabbett 23:50, 21 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Yes g-man, i agree about the Bham Industrial revolution article. Like i said, i added content expecting to be re-worked and people can debate those points healthily i guess, but my back has been raised by many edits and deletions that seemed unexplained untill Andy turned up again, (and i didnt say i wrote all of the bham page, just the majority culture, economy, sport and atractions Andy)

I guess the facts speak for themselves and Andy is a decent contributor to Brum page, i believe that we have a majority of posters..erm... 3 to 1 that say keep Nick Mason! any more for any more? (apart from industrial revolution, do you two guys agree with my points, and i stress again its not an Anti-Andy Mabbet thing! :) Nick

Ok, thankyou Morwen for unprotecting the page, i have reverted a couple of minor edits Andy did to my architecture page and i have included Nick Mason in the music section and removed the heading... People that were born but never... as it is no longer needed and will confuse people.

Lets try this again Andy, if anyone wishes to make major changes or changes that could possibly lead to edit wars then i suggest maybe we discuss here first, that way we can work more as a team in maintaining the page instead of lone editors with conflicting work. Nick

p.s. Nice work on the districts Andy, i was becoming dissolutioned at looking at links that lead to empty pages.

Mass-deletion

Nice one Andy, you are so ignorant and extremely arrogant, just for everyones information Andy has decided to continue to make his little removals etc even after a majority saying Nick Mason should stay!, i am so pissed off with his lack of respect that i have REMOVED ALL OF MY OWN WORK on here so you can damn well make your contributions now Andy, DO AS YOU DAMN WELL PLEASE YOU OBVIOUSLY ALWAYS GET YOUR OWN WAY... unless someone can ensure that this idiot wont keep removing my work then i don't wish for it to be reverted, whats the bloody point!

Nick

Hi. I'm afraid you are not allowed to withdraw the material, under the terms of the GFDL. Morwen 17:55, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Nick it has been agreed that Nick Mason should stay. Andy would you please learn to appreciate that this is not your personal encyclopedia, you are editing as part of a community. You've done much good work on the WP, but many people are becoming fed up with your attitude, including it must be said me. G-Man 18:03, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

"it has been agreed that Nick Mason should stay" Where? Andy Mabbett 18:09, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

No answer? Andy Mabbett 18:44, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the outburst but i have just about had enough of his deletions etc, like G-Man says it is a community here but one person seems to think he is somehow greater than the rest and is ruining it for some of us. After looking through his discussion pages he seems to have done this sort of thing before and i tried to be accomodating but he just doesn't give a damn other than his own way. Can we take further action so that he doesn't keep doing this as i can't be bothered to keep looking out for his destruction and he has proven that he has no wish to participate in this page in a mature adult way!

Nick

I don't think that removing misleading information about two musicians is as bad an offence as you are making out of. However, someone here has done something worthy of a block - you. Morwen 18:18, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

Why is that? Andy is deleting my work and how is it missleading? We have discussed this here and a majority voted to keep Nick Mason but one person doesn't respect that decission, i cannot beieve that you think i am the one to be blocked??????? Nick

Well, you are the person who removed half the article. Now, you've apologised for it, so I don't intend to actually do so. But whilst throwing accusations around, you might want to be careful. Morwen 18:26, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

I don't seem to be able to see any such appology. Where is it? Andy Mabbett 18:35, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

'Sorry for the outburst' I think. Morwen 19:02, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

Compromise

Hows about this for a compromise. We split the "famous people" section into "famous people born in Birmingham" and " Famous People who have lived in Birmingham" (but not born there) and then we can put Nick Mason in the former. and people like J.R.R Tolkein etc in the latter G-Man 18:30, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that seems to have been what the status quo was when I unprotected the article. See [3], which then got this fight started again. I know towns like to claim anyone who was born near them as their own, but there are limits to this. Morwen 18:33, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

Limits including people who left days after their birth, and never lived here, and who have said that they have no memory of being here, and that they do not regard themselves as having any "belonging" to Birmingham? Andy Mabbett 18:38, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

The fact still remains that he was born there and I see no reason why this should not be mentioned. G-Man 18:42, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

It is: Nick Mason. Andy Mabbett 18:46, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

But if he's denied he's from Birmingham, this is a good reason not to list him, unconditionally, as a Birmingham person - remember what the Duke of Wellington said about horses and stables. Now maybe, 'People who were born in Birmingham but never lived there' is not a good section heading. Perhaps you can suggest another? Morwen 18:47, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

This is a can of worms, as I've said before many famous people were born in one place, educated in another, and did whatever made them famous somewhere else.

For example Frank Whittle was born in Coventry, but all of his work developing the jet engine was done outside Coventry.

So are we to remove from every article people who were born in a particular town, but did not do whatever made them famous in their birthplace. G-Man 19:09, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Whittle was raised and educated in Coventry, was he not? (and please try to format your posts here, in such a way that they don't disrupt the flow). Andy Mabbett 19:13, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

OK perhaps not the best example, but you get my gist. And Andy what possible harm can it do to list the fact that NM was born in Birmingham? G-Man 19:20, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

No... please do me a favour and at least if i am blocked it will be through standing up for what i believe to be right, i have damn well had enough Morwen, i can't be bothered to get into a silly edit war with someone and my word (toned down language) if Andy had originally discussed it here i may even have agreed to his changes but it is partly principle now and mostly fact that i am so abrasive at the moment. I wonder how many new users will be put off by reading all this, whats the point in contributing to a community when one doesn't really exist! And where is this evidence as i have asked bofore that Andy keeps refering to about Nick Mason and if it is true why has he left it untill the last minute to include it into the discussion (laugh). And no! the heading is not worthy of a main page otherwiese we could be here forever.

Nick

and why havent you picked up on my other points about him removing the middle part of my hip hop section? and what about the removal of so many of the atractions? and what about the removal of the intro to the music section. Nick

Can you provide the links to the diffs where you say he did that? Thanks. Morwen 19:02, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

I sure will, i have reverted some of his removals just now but i will show you the links...

I like the way he disguises deletion with the word 'move' it took me ages to sort of the places of interest and i was slowly filling in the empty pages but Andys 'moving' made it look sparse and was misleading if anyone clicked on the places of interest section.

My addition of Hip Hop section: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Birmingham&oldid=3573834

Andys removal: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Birmingham&oldid=3576927

See: (cur) (last) . . 15:09, 14 May 2004 . . Pigsonthewing (Nick Mason is not a "Birmingham musician" - as he himself has told me.) (cur) (last) . . 07:39, 14 May 2004 . . Auximines (spelling) (cur) (last) . . 22:13, 13 May 2004 . . 195.92.67.70

My addition of places of interest: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Birmingham&oldid=3590627

Andys removal then complete re-organise of places of interest http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Birmingham&oldid=3582229

See: (cur) (last) . . 22:34, 14 May 2004 . . Pigsonthewing (=Places of interest=) (cur) (last) . . 22:32, 14 May 2004 . . Pigsonthewing (=External links= (moved)) (cur) (last) . . 22:32, 14 May 2004 . . Pigsonthewing (=Places of interest= (moving))