Talk:Christopher Columbus

Request for info: what is "columbus' egg"? -- Tarquin 10:14 Jul 28, 2002 (PDT)

As far as I know it is the way in which Columbus made an egg stand up straight: smashing it so hard on the table it had a dent, allowing it to stand straight. This is probably just an urban legend or so, I don't know about that. In Dutch, the term "Het ei van Columbus" is used to describe a simple solution for a difficult problem (sometimes a too easy solution). Hope this helps. Jeronimo 14:06 Jul 28, 2002 (PDT)

Columbus was not an explorer, he was a slave trader who got lost.

He wasn't??? -- ZxAnPhOrIaN 23:16 Oct 15, 2002 (UTC)

Adding factual info on Columbus's connection to the slave trade would be welcome. Simply changing the article from saying "explorer" to "slave trader" doesn't make it more informative.

Well it does make it more informative. Because Columbus wasn't an explorer. He was a slave trader. He was a guy who floated between Africa and Europe trading slaves. Thus he was a slave trader. How do you think he got so good at sailing in the first place? Nobody gives you a grant to go "explore" for Indian slaves, gold, and spices unless you have experience in "exploring" for slaves, gold, and spices.

- No, it doesn't make it more informative-- There were thousands of people engaged in the slave trade; I suspect few of them warrent encyclopedia articles for that reason alone. If you have documentation about Columbus's working as a slave trader before 1492, that would be interesting; I hope you'll share it, as that would be a contribution to the article. However, Columbus's making Europe aware of the Americas is what he's most remembered for. If Columbus's only purpose was the slave trade, he would have simply sailed down the cost of Africa, as other slave traders were doing, rather than heading out on a risky uncharted course west across the open ocean.

- Yes, it does make it more informative, "Columbus was a slave trader who found a new continent" is far more informative than, "Columbus was a guy who found something new (ie. explorer) that found a new continent" The dude was a slave trader by profession. If you asked him he would say, "Im a slavetrader. I capture slaves and sell them."

I assume you can back that up with documents that you are about to cite. --Brion 00:42 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

Im getting kinda sick of the attitude of certain members of wikipedia. They seem to think that anything they don't already know is very dubious and they constantly demand "proof". If you don't know Columbus was a slavetrader its a pretty good guess you don't know much about Columbus and I wish those who haven't done much study of such things would just admit it and back off. And when they do find something objectionable, I wish they would leave a note in talk, NOT CHANGE THE TEXT, and go do some homework. Lir 02:26 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

http://www.2think.org/ah.shtml

http://www.transformcolumbusday.org/faq.htm

http://home.earthlink.net/~krazhawk/Columbus_Day.html

http://www.geocities.com/amawek/HeroBarbarian.html

http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/columbus1.html

http://www.indiancountry.com/?595

http://www.trinicenter.com/kwame/2001/Jul/20010713.htm

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/explorers/mexico.shtml

http://www.csindy.com/csindy/2001-10-11/yourturn.html

They would even take Indians from place to place with them -- as dog food -- as a kind of mobile dog food. When they got to where they were going for the night, they would allow the dogs to tear one of them apart and eat them.

Wake up u idjits

Please try to remember that there are people here who know a LOT more than you on these topics. It is beyond ludicrous to object to stating that Columbus was a slavetrader. Lir 02:26 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

129.186.80.118 insists on putting "slave trader" as Columbus's occupation. This has been reverted more than once, but 129.186.80.118 won't leave it alone. --- Zoe

Well, there is at least a necessity for some discussion of Columbus' brutality towards the Arawaks, his enslavement of Indians, and his violent pursuit of gold, which are all documented in his own diary and are not in any dispute. The fact that Columbus is treated like a hero is extremely insulting to a great many millions of people, and the lack of any discussion of it in this entry is appalling. Will add it shortly. Graft 23:39 Oct 19, 2002 (UTC)

Hmm, so what is "Before he left on his second voyage he had been directed by Ferdinand and Isabella to maintain friendly, even loving relations with the natives. However during his second voyage he sent a letter to then proposing enslavement of them, specifically of the Caribs on the grounds of their aggressiveness. His petition was refused by the Crown. In February, 1495 Columbus authorized shipment of 500 Arawak slaves to Spain. Rounding up the slaves resulted in the first major battle between the Spanish and the Indians in the new world."? Only a small beginning, to be sure, but hardly "treating like a hero". --Brion 00:05 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

Possibly "The Myth of Columbus" or "Perceptions of Columbus" might be a good subject for a seperate article. There certainly was a lot of heroic mythologizing of him, especially centered around the 1892 anniversary. Infrogmation

Columbus was enslaving on his FIRST trip. He was enslaving before his first trip. There is not "at least a necessity for discussion of Columbus' brutality" there is a WHOLE LOT OF NECESSITY for it.

Re-reverting... Lir, if you can present evidence/sources showing that Columbus was not an explorer, this would be extreemly interesting, and I'm sure many people would be interested in seeing it. That Columbus advocated enslaving indiginous Amerinds from at least his 2nd voyage to the New World seems not to be in dispute. If you can show he was a slave trader before 1492, this would be of interest as well.

when you have a question-take a little time to do some work instead of bashing everything. Lir 02:32 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

This is a subject about which I know very little, but if I go to http://www.xrefer.org and search for Columbus I find two substantial articles on him, one from the Market House Books Encyclopaedia of the Renaissance and the other from The Macmillan Encyclopedia - neither of them mention slave trading, but Macmillan says he was a pirate in his youth. As I say, I'm pretty ignorant on this subject, but keen to learn - if you, Lir, or anybody else can point me towards a source that says he was a slave-trader, I'd be grateful. --Camembert

pirates tend to be slavers Lir 03:11 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

I'm new in this debate, but I do remember reading something about Columbus dealing in slaves. The question is how relevant it is. He was captain of a merchant vessel, and the merchandise included slaves (as well as gold and spices-slaves were just another merchandise). He sailed west looking for new trade routes. In that sense he was an explorer. He is remembered in history as an explorer, not as a slaver, so the introductory paragraph should reflect that. The role of the slave trade in his voyages could make an interesting new paragraph, but it has to be put in context of the times--slaves were one of the "items" he traded. Danny

oh i think thats a horrible idea. he wasnt just trading wool. he was trading slaves.

Simply posting a link or a source of that information would end this debate. It's not that hard. I don't know one way or the other myself. But if it's true, there should be some (respectable) websites out there that mention it with sources listed. In my opionion, negative things like this should not be included about people without some source listed. -jazz77

Okay, I've poked around online (it's 11 p.m. Saturday, the library is closed) for Columbus information, and the one clear fact is that Columbus's wife was the daughter of a navigator who worked for Prince Henry the Navigator. Various sources found by googling have him exploring around Thule, or trading to Madeira, or otherwise exploring or working on a sailing ship.

The slave trade is a long and continuing stain on human history; unless there's evidence that Columbus was particularly complicit in this, it might be worth mentioning, but shouldn't be in the first sentence. Vicki Rosenzweig

http://www.2think.org/ah.shtml

http://www.transformcolumbusday.org/faq.htm

http://home.earthlink.net/~krazhawk/Columbus_Day.html

http://www.geocities.com/amawek/HeroBarbarian.html

http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/columbus1.html

http://www.indiancountry.com/?595

http://www.trinicenter.com/kwame/2001/Jul/20010713.htm

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/explorers/mexico.shtml

http://www.csindy.com/csindy/2001-10-11/yourturn.html

I followed a few of those links. Here are some comments:

I have no faith in the Kwame page (that's at trinicenter.com), after the first paragraph:

" At the outset, it must be stated quite clearly that we Afrikan people, are the original, majority people with original ideas. Europeans are only an inherited, transmitting global minority people. Europeans did not invent, create or discover culture nor civilisation; they just inherited them and in some cases, stole them. Afrikans never lived in caves and in the icebox during the Ice Age for 20,000 years." This is not history, it's myth, and racist myth at that. (In some sense we are all Africans, yes--but that's not what he's saying.)

actually I agree with that page and Im not african. Europeans did not invent, create, or discover culture. it was all imported and stolen and moved there. Lir 03:17 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

"csindy.com" appears to be an alternative newsweekly, longer on editorials than reporting, and certainly not any kind of scholarly source. enchantedlearning.com tells us that Columbus enslaved some of the natives when he got to the Americas, but describes him as an explorer. Vicki Rosenzweig

lol-i donno-if not everyone, just about everyone of those links pretty clearly says, "Columbus was a slavetrader". Not a whole lot I can do if you people don't take the time to read anything. Lir 03:17 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

OK, we're getting off the subject here - the point is not whether Columbus traded slaves or not, the point is whether we should describe him as a "slaver" or an "explorer". As Danny and others say, he is remembered as an explorer, so should be described as such in the first paragraph - the opening of the article is to introduce the subject, and introducing Columbus as a slaver is missing the point somewhat. To make a musical analogy (something I do know a bit about) - the famous conductor Herbert von Karajan was a member of the Nazi party, but if I was going to write an article on him, I would write "Herbert von Karajan was a German conductor" not "Herbert von Karajan was a German Nazi". Of course, if Columbus was a slave trader, the article should talk about this, but it's not what he's famous for, and so putting it in the first paragraph as if that's his claim to fame is misleading. --Camembert

Is a celebrity's life decided by what the majority of the populace thinks his life was like? --Ashibaka

Of course not, but it's surely true that the source of somebody's fame is decided by that. Anyway, I'm not talking about that - what I'm saying is that the first paragraph of an article should concisely sum up the subject, and if the article is on a person, it should state why the person is deserving of an article (there is a policy page which says just this). In this case, I believe that means saying that Columbus was an explorer who was the first European to stumble across the Americas. As I say, it's obvious that if he traded slaves, that should also be talked about in the article, but the fact is that slave trading is not what he is famous for. --Camembert

But see, he wasn't an explorer. He didn't hike the Himalayas before he went to America. No, he traded slaves. Now granted, he traded other things. If you want to say he was a trader of wools and slaves, that is fine. Maybe he traded nayls too. Who knows. But the fact that he was a slavetrader kinda explains why all those Indians died and so it should be mentioned. He was a slavetrader who did some exploring in the search for slaves. Above all, slavery was on his mind, which is why he didn't do a whole lot of exploring beyond, "Where is the gold and why aren't you mining it for me? Lir 03:37 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

Thank you, you just refuted your own claim. According to what you just said, his primary interest was gold, not slaves. Slaves were a means to get the gold. As for his trading history, he was NOT collecting slaves in Iceland, but he spent considerable time there. Danny

Should we call him a goldcollector instead? Lir 03:43 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

I don't understand this assertion that Columbus "was'nt an explorer" - just what was he doing going across the Atlantic if not exploring? You must have a different definition of exploration to me. --Camembert

Just cuz u discover something by accident doesnt make you an explorer.

Well, since he was exploring new routes to get slaves to dig up gold, why not just call him an explorer. Danny

wut do you think he was exploring? the water? by his reckoning it went straight to somewhere that was already known. you dont explore by taking a new route to the gas station. you don't get to call yourself an explorer if you find a gold nugget while you are out driving around selling slaves in your slavemobile.

Yeah, Unfortunately in this debate, we have to sacrifice our sacred cows for the facts. Columbus the explorer is good enough for the second grade book report, but not here. we dont have his W2 forms to find what his main occupation was, and therefore, we go by how he made his money. Westernised concepts of discovery are not entirely false, theyve just been sanitized(add to my new stub here by the way). so keepit up, people and dont let any ignorant propagandist accuse y'all of revisionism. -Sv

Stevertigo, you confused me. Which side of this debate are you on? -- Zoe

Columbus the explorer is good enough for the second grade book report, but not here. Lir 03:50 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

Glib rhetoric will get you no where. The second grade book report gives a bibliography of websites, rather than real sources accepted in an academic setting. Danny

Danny, its strange that you state this when you know he was a slavetrader.