Talk:Ramapough Mountain Indians

I thought this was a Wikipedianism for the locally familiar Ramapo Mountain. See Talk:Ephrem the Syrian. --Wetman 14:06, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This artcile is an exact copy of [1]. Copyright violation?? 6 Mar 2005

Document was rewritten...

ramapough mountain indians

document rewritten on temp page. pls update. this is from home page and permission was granted. The info posted previously was from state site and here is their copyright policy.

"The State of New Jersey has made the content of these pages available to the public and anyone may view, copy or distribute State information found here without obligation to the State, unless otherwise state on particular material or information to which a restriction on free use may apply."

no copyright laws were broken.

Copyvio result

The article has been returned to its pre-copyvio state. The discussion from Wikipedia:Copyright problems was:

• Ramapough Mountain Indians From [2]

copyright statement-- The State of New Jersey has made the content of these pages available to the public and anyone may view, copy or distribute State information found here without obligation to the State, unless otherwise state on particular material or information to which a restriction on free use may apply. However, the State makes no warranty that materials contained herein are free of Copyright or Trademark claims or other restrictions or limitations on free use or display. Making a copy of such material may be subject to the copyright of trademark laws.

Also, an earlier version of the article existed that was deleted to make way for the copy/paste.--Duk 16:53, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Information from the New Jersey Web site can be incorporated into the article, but should avoid plagiarism. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:37, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Information from the Ramapough Lenape Nation

Steve posted this on my talk page;

The info posted to the temp page is from my website. I am the web admin for the tribal website. If possible, I would like to explain why the info posted is offensive. the info listed is wrong. We do not, nor have we ever spoke Jersey Dutch. Our ancestors spoke Munsee and i'm sure they had to learn English and Dutch to communicate with the European invaders. The part that is really upsetting is many site derive their info from yours and it spreads the lies. In the temp folder is the correct info which is on our website written by our chief. Please, either post the correct info or delete us out of your site altogether. Thank you. Steven (User:Ramapoughnative1)

Steve has put some material at Ramapough Mountain Indians/Temp which appears to be from ramapoughlenapenation.org --Duk 16:00, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I've just added my endorsement of your comments on his Web page. I must admit that I don't like the reference to "lies", or the claim that errors are offensive (if I took offense at all the mistakes that, for example, many Americans make about the U.K, I'd be in a permanent state of fury...). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:20, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Removed comments..

I won't complain about the removal of those previous comments, they were racist and pejorative. However, the poster did indicate some things that should be discussed, if this article refers to the same people (which it appears to). A mention of the common (considered pejorative?) term "Jackson Whites" and its relation here should be discussed in a NPOV way. I had heard of people referred to by that term, but I did not realize that this article was talking about the same group of people until reading those recent comments. The article at [3] gives a reasonable background and commentary, and many references to other publications. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 06:32, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree. This article has a sad history of racist vandalism, sometimes thinly veiled with a few valid facts. Some of the reverts removed information that would be acceptable if presented in a balanced way. --Duk 19:56, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think there is a great difference between something being said about a nation as a whole and something said about your family. The information posted saying we were descendents of runaway Hessian soldiers, prostitutes, etc is just wrong. Period. There is no documentation to support this but it gets printed as truth because that's how people want to think of us. Even as hard as Cohen tried to prove the mixed blood thing, he couldn't but I still see it posted on websites. Some sites having nothing to do with Native Americans or geneology have it listed there. Why? It's all politically motivated propaganda to make us look like we're less than human and it had to be corrected.

  I do appreciate all of the webmasters who have corrected or removed the misinformation.

steven

After reading the comments by ChrisRuvolo, I added some information about the Jackson White name trying to be as careful as possible to be respectful of the opinion of the tribe regarding the name. I've lived in Suffern, NY and have hiked in the Ramapo mountains, and the name and the legends around it are an important part of the region's history. I hope this helps, if not, feel free to rv. Sysin

Sysin I don't mind the additions so much but can we kill the Cohen part? His book is neither supported nor appreciated by the tribe. If you must mention something with authority, how about the book "Indians in the Ramapos" by Edward J. Lenik? He is a well known anthropologist and has done unbiased research to find the truth. Please understand, just because we're introverted doesn't mean we're ignorant. It's really nobody's business what or who our descendents were. How would you feel to have your history and lineage under a microscope? I understand you have lived in Suffern (The town was founded by my gr gr gr gr grandfather) but are you a Ramapough? Don't we have a say in what's told about us? I guess nothing has changed in the past 250 years. Do you realize the impact your website has? The misinformation posted here before had proliferated to hundreds of sites around the world, and it's still listed on some sites. The Jackson White theory needs to die already.. Let it go... Before 1940's.. African Americans were called the 'N' word by most of society. No one prints that now because that would be ignorant and pejorative. I feel just as strongly about the name "Jackson White". It's not true so why print it?

Steven

I'm not familiar with Cohen, but his opinion (if based on scientific research) should not be deleted just because some disagree with it. The proper procedure is to add a paragraph stating that "In his book Indians in the Ramapos, Edward J. Lenik states that ...". This covers both opinions, and provides the reader with a clearer picture of the issue than simply deleting the 'offending theory'. In fact, if you want the "Jackson White" myths to die, the best approach is to state them and rebut them, not to pretend they don't exist. As for the comparison to the N word, in fact wikipedia has a long and informative article on it as well...Sysin

I'm not pretending it doesn't exist. The point is it's a myth made up by some racist many years ago and because no one stepped up to the plate and said he was wrong, it's stuck for all these years. Cohen couldn't prove it, Lenik showed otherwise. (and yes it has be rebutted.) So what do we do? Rebut it on every website that prints it, (I don't have the time nor resources for it) or just ask not to have it printed? All I can say is I hope no one else ever has to go thru this for their family. I'm done. You have already decided what you're going to print whether it's true or false.

To answer your question what should we do. You need to rebutt the Cohen reference with Lenik's information. You can also add details about the NY and NJ officially recognizing the Ramapough Lenape Nation. Also, you can add cultural, historical and current information on the tribe. You might be one of the few persons in a position to do this. I've become interested in this topic, and have reverted obvious vandalism in the past. But am otherwise ignorant on the topic, and my library doesn't have a copy of INDIANS IN THE RAMAPOS: SURVIVAL, PERSISTENCE AND PRESENCE, by Edward J. Lenik, North Jersey Highlands Historical Sociey, 1999. I'll see if I can get it on intra-library loan. --Duk 01:25, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

All of that info is already posted on the tribal website. I will work on the Cohen/Lenik part though. thanks!

Ramapough Mountain People

Once again I come back to find more derogitory info on us. Why do you keep adding more negative info? Do you have something AGAINST us? I have updated your page to include the information from Ed Lenik from the N.J. Highlands Historical Society. Last point i'd like to make is Cohen did not work or even consult with the tribe to write his books. Ed Lenik did. Therefore, Cohens only reference was the one sided stories and myths written about us from the people who wanted nothing more than to steal our land. Their writings of us were less than perfect because they didn't care. ( think of Abramhoff who was hired to lobby FOR the tribes but did the opposite and called them names behind their backs) At this time, it is documented that the white colonials beat, raped, and stole from the indians. When the indians tried to get justice, there was none. This is why the tribes sold their land and moved north and west. They were invited by other tribes to live with them and they feared for their existence if they stayed here.

pokey5945: Thanks for editing the input. I want to bring to your attention that the BIA hasn't recognized any of the 3 state recognized tribe here in New Jersey. As a matter of fact, they have removed a few who were. The BIA is loaded with flaws and will add or remove a tribe based on who's paying. PERIOD. We never wanted recognition for a casino and filed our petition in 1978, years before the casino law was inacted but a powerful person here who owns the casino business assumed we wanted to get in on his business and guess what? He petitioned against us and we didn't get recognized. What ever happened to examining the facts? This event is well documented can be found on the web. We don't need anyone to decide if we are or are not Indian. We know who we are and don't care what anyone else thinks. You adding the part about the BIA decision, a branch of the federal government (who has done nothing to preserve or keep it's treaties with any tribe), doesn't recognize us as Native American adds no merit to the facts. This is the same branch that has members who have been caught lying, stealing tribal funds, and conspiring against all Native Americans. I thought this was suppose to be a factual site. Seems you want to push propaganda. Do you work for the government too?

Steven

The federal government's relationship to the group is relevant to this article, regardless of whether one agrees with the govts' decisions or not. If you can document some corruption in the BIA acknowledgment process, that would relevant too, but it would need to be verifiable.Pokey5945 06:47, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

The proof will be when the Shinnecocks claim about Blumenthau contacting the BIA and tampering with the decision making comes to light. Why is it that legend about the Ramapoughs being descendent of deserter soldiers and slave women (which has NO proof even existed and is considered slander) has to be mentioned here but the fact that there are hundreds of documents and some noted anthropologist such as Roger Josilyn saying we are whom we say but that's not good enough? We didn't get recognition because it wasn't in the governments best interest. If you read the document by the BIA, we failed because we weren't documented before 1870 or after 1950. How does a whole village of people appear out of nowhere overnight? Since I was born in 1958, Why doesn't birth and death records suffice to the existence of the same tribe? Doesn't geneology records have any part in the decision? It's all B.S.

The Assistant Secretary found that Petitioner satisfied the criteria in § 83.7(b) and (c) for the period 1870-c.1950. However, she stated: "Meeting a criterion for a limited period is not sufficient to meet the criterion overall because of the requirement of continuous existence. No adequate evidence has been submitted to show the continuous existence of a community from first sustained contact with non-Indians until 1870, or from 1950 to the present. http://www.ibiadecisions.com/Ibiadecisions/31ibia/31ibia061.PDF(31 IBIA 67)

POKEY5945: The part you added about COHEN "who conducted extensive genealogical research among the group." is removed because it is a lie. He never did any geological research. His information is based on documents written by John C. Storms in 1936. Roger Josyln who IS a geneologist disputes Cohen and had stated otherwise. Here is Joslyn's credentials.

Roger D. Joslyn, CG, FASG, is a Fellow of the American Society of Genealogists (and its immediate past president), The New York Genealogical and Biographical Society, and the Utah Genealogical Association.A full-time genealogist since 1978, he became a Certified Genealogist in 1981. He is a former trustee of the Board for Certification of Genealogists, a founding member and past vice president of the Genealogical Speakers Guild, and a member of the New York Archival Services Advisory Committee (State Archives). Roger is a past president, former trustee, and former Editorial Advisory Board member of the Association of Professional Genealogists, and in 1994 he received that organization’s Grahame Thomas Smallwood, Jr. Award of Merit. He is a frequent speaker and has had many articles published in leading genealogical journals. He was the editor/compiler of the two-volume Vital Records of Charlestown, Massachusetts, and is the author of the Mid-Atlantic state chapters in Ancestry's Red Book.

We are not going to publish our geneology on your website to prove it. I also want to bring to your attention in Cohens book "The Ramapough Mountain People", page 7. He himself states "there is no evidence that this information is related to the origin of the Ramapo mountain People." So he himself disputes the Jackson White theory. So please stop printing misinformation.

P.S. Cohen is a historian NOT an geneologist. They are not the same. David Steven Cohen holds a B.A. in History from Rutgers University, an M.A. in American History from Claremont Graduate School, and an M.A. and Ph.D. in American Civilization from the University of Pennsylvania. He taught History and American Studies at Rutgers University in Newark for nine years, prior to coming to the New Jersey Historical Commission, where he is a Senior Research Associate and Director of the Ethnic History Program.

Steven

This is my email address. [email protected]

1-12-06 To whom it may concern: I have made changes to your information. I have also supplied proof of what was written. The BIA document can be found anywhere on the web since it's public knowledge. Can we just leave it alone now? I would like to know why we had to go through so much more to disprove what was written. No other tribe listed here had to go through so much to get their info corrected.

Steven. [email protected]

1-13-05 Once again I have found errors added to this document. Roger Joslyn is a Geneologist not a Historian. What he found was the blood links to other tribes, not the shared history. There is a difference. The BIA findings did not say we were not an Indian tribe, it says we didn't prove consistant community leadership and that is different. We failed to prove items (B, C,and E), not (A) which states.. (a) The petitioner HAS been identified as an American Indian entity on a substantially continuous basis since 1900. Evidence that the group's character as an Indian entity has from time to time been denied shall not be considered to be conclusive evidence that this criterion has not been met. Evidence to be relied upon in determining a group's Indian identity may include one or a combination of the following, as well as other evidence of identification by other than the petitioner itself or its members.

(1) Identification as an Indian entity by Federal authorities. (2) Relationships with State governments based on identification of the group as Indian. (3) Dealings with a county, parish, or other local government in a relationship based on the group's Indian identity. (4) Identification as an Indian entity by anthropologists, historians, and/or other scholars. (5) Identification as an Indian entity in newspapers and books. (6) Identification as an Indian entity in relationships with Indian tribes or with national, regional, or state Indian organizations.

The Federal Government does recognize our Native American status as well as the states of New York and New Jersey. Don't misprint the facts.

P.S. look at this from the Courant.com, "Tribal Nation Files Appeal" dated 1/13

"In its latest ruling, the Interior Department rejected the Schaghticokes because the tribe failed to prove it had a viable, intact community with its own government for decades-long stretches in the 19th and 20th centuries. Tribal leaders say new evidence was ignored."

Look familiar?

Edits of Jan. 21

Chris.. Why did you re-edit my work??!!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramapoughnative1 (talk • contribs)

Hello. I reverted the (anonymous) changes to Ramapough Mountain Indians because they removed several requests for citation, and made claims that were disputed by some of the sources listed in the below paragraphs. That is, the changes violated the neutral point of view and the citation of sources policies. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 02:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

To whom it may concern.. I have noted and quoted 5 distinguished Historians and Geneologists who have acknowledged the Ramapough Lenape Nation as an Indian tribe. They are all in agreement(see the annotations and read for yourself.)The only one who disagrees is Cohen in this discussion. As per your rules on NPOV, your president, Jimbo Wales states "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not." So can you please remove the bit about Cohen since he is the minority and since he couldn't prove his claim against 5 others, i'd say he is in the extreme majority.

Steven Ramapoughnative1 03:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Steven, the new citation added, Kraft, says that the origins of the Ramapoughs are "controversial". To change the article to ignore that controversy when it is acknowledged by experts would be illogical. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 04:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

via email:
Yes he states controversy, but mot on his part. He states "It is clear that we are descended..." In his book, he wrote 2 pages about us. He didn't have a doubt and neither of the other 4 people. the only one who did is Cohen. As Cohen can't back up his claim and the others can, he is clearly in the minority so please remove him. This is by your own rules. If I have to, I will write to the president himself to have it done as this is clearly just another way to ignore the facts and perpetuate the lies about 'Jackson Whites'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramapoughnative1 (talk • contribs)

Steven, please respond here so that we can have a record of the debate. While you have provided several citations approving of the claim of native american ancestry, I don't think anyone has been actively looking for counter-claims. Counter-claims should be included, this is precisely what NPOV means, that both sides of an argument are included and the reader should be able to make up his/her own mind. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 21:56, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

via email:
Chris. Now you want us to prove everything written in here? First of all, we are not going to publish our genealogy on the web from Roger Joslyn. Would you publish your family history if you were asked? I think we're getting a bit petty as I have gone above and beyond for this site. The other things requested are on the web for all to see by just searching. I am not going to find every little detail. I would like to state that I feel we have been treated unfairly. No other Indian tribe you have listed has gone through so much to get you the facts. What is the problem and why are we being treated this way? Just so you are not suprised, I will be contacting the president of this company and making a formal complaint because you don't follow your own rules of business. I read the NPOV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramapoughnative1 (talk • contribs)

If the Joslyn research is not available for public consumption, then it is not a verifyable source. If it has been published as an independent work or in a research journal, please indicate where it can be found. I don't blame you for not publishing familial details, but you shouldn't use unverifyable claims here. And yes, everything written here should be verifiable by citing a source.

I have not made significant content edits to this article or other Native American articles. Please do not accuse me of things that I have not done. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 21:56, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Chris, I understand if you have to remove the info on Joslyn but, the info is posted on the web if searched for. I just don't want to be the one who's responsible for posting it as it should remain private. What about the issue in the NPOV stating the extreme minority should not be listed? Since Cohen is not in the same class or status as the others, why isn't he removed? You can find anyone who will claim anything just to be opposite but considering the credentials of the others, where is his credentials that says he is an authority and deserves a say? Especially since I have given proof with an eyewitness accounting from the 1800's and documentation from before and after Cohens book stating otherwise? I just want a fair shake. If I wrote something about you that was wrong, would you post it as controversial even though it isn't true?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view

see this document on NPOV. Other sysops agree with me.

I agree with Iantresman. The main article should be the topic covered. Every POV should not, and can not, be shown in every article. It is true this isn't a paper encyclopedia, but in those the main article only tells what the specific theory/idea/eschatology/etc with a reference to related articles. For instance, the Wikipedia entry for flat earth more closely resembles an encycolpedia entry than the intelligent design article that looks more like a message board debate. (The ID article is particularly ridiculous). For the same reason I wouldn't want to read about democracy (a majority view) in an article about anarchy (a minority view), I don't want to read about opposing POVs from scientists, theologians, etc. glocks out 19:35, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Ramapoughnative1 04:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Steven, I tried searching for the Joslyn paper, but could not find it. Perhaps you could give some better hints? One interesting thing I did find was the BIA document on why the federal recognition appeal was denied. I have included quotations from that document to try to bring some NPOV balance to the article. As for your NPOV discussion quotation, that refers to the example of the cosmology article, which references several articles that discuss different theories. The argument was that information on each of the different theories should not be included on all the other articles, but that there should be mention of the debate with reference to other articles like the main cosmology article that discusses it. I don't see how that applies here. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 13:52, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Chris. This is acceptable. I think we have come to common ground. I wanted to show you these for a personal standpoint. You can look at the Brotherton website forum for your request but don't print or reference it here. Also, here is the link to why we really didn't get recognized.

http://www.colorado.edu/Sewall/ramirez/cashin.htm

Donald Trump has also attempted to interrupt the growth of Indian reservation casinos. On April 30, 1993, he filed a civil suit in U.S. District Court in Newark, New Jersey against U.S. Secretary of the Interior, Bruce Babbitt, and Tony Hope, chairman of the National Indian Gaming Commission, claiming that the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act is unconstitutional and gives Indians preferential treatment and an unfair advantage in acquiring licenses for setting up legal casinos on their land.[49] [50]

Coincidentally, Trump's three Atlantic City casinos, Trump Castle, Trump Plaza, and Trump Taj Mahal, are feeling the heat from the Mashantucket Pequot's Foxwoods casino in Connecticut and are fearing the possibility of the Ramapough Indians of Northern New Jersey opening a gambling operation near Atlantic City. "Unabashed motor mouth Donald Trump lived up to his reputation on Oct. 5 when he told a congressional hearing that organized crime is rampant on Indian reservations. Trump went on to predict that if the trend toward gaming on Native American land continues, 'this will be the biggest crime problem in this country's history.'"[51] Ramapoughnative1 16:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Pokey Can't you read? we failed on items b,c,& e. Not a. We were and are a Native American tribe. It had nothing to do with our history. It's all about politics. I submit Trump's lawsuit for proof. As far as i'm concerned, i'm done with this whole thing. Now I have to work against 2 of you. Think what you want as i don't have to defend my family against any of you. That the problem with this country, you people think if it ain't the 'white' way, it ain't the right way.

http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/hawaiiansovereignty/tribefederalrecognition.html

I'm done with this website write whatever the hell you want.

(a) The petitioner has been identified as an American Indian entity on a substantially continuous basis since 1900. Evidence that the group's character as an Indian entity has from time to time been denied shall not be considered to be conclusive evidence that this criterion has not been met. Evidence to be relied upon in determining a group's Indian identity may include one or a combination of the following, as well as other evidence of identification by other than the petitioner itself or its members.

(1) Identification as an Indian entity by Federal authorities.

(2) Relationships with State governments based on identification of the group as Indian.

(3) Dealings with a county, parish, or other local government in a relationship based on the group's Indian identity.

(4) Identification as an Indian entity by anthropologists, historians, and/or other scholars.

(5) Identification as an Indian entity in newspapers and books.

(6) Identification as an Indian entity in relationships with Indian tribes or with national, regional, or state Indian organizations.

Ramapoughnative1 13:14, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Casino?

I'm confused by the recent edits. Have the Ramapoughs stated intentions to open a casino? How are actions of Donald Trump relevant? --ChrisRuvolo (t) 13:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

The only reason we didn't get resolution is because Trump files a law suit against Secty of interior and others to stop our recognition. He's afraid we would open a casino, when in fact we requested recognition 2 years before casino law was enacted. It's on the web. See Colorado link above. We've never wanted a casino and have stated so many times but it doesn't matter. I also added Joslyn back in because he is listed on the BIA results as having his work as submitted evidence. Will it be a problem now?

68.37.88.71 17:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC) Ramapoughnative1 17:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Coincidentally, Trump's three Atlantic City casinos, Trump Castle, Trump Plaza, and Trump Taj Mahal, are feeling the heat from the Mashantucket Pequot's Foxwoods casino in Connecticut and are fearing the possibility of the Ramapough Indians of Northern New Jersey opening a gambling operation near Atlantic City. "Unabashed motor mouth Donald Trump lived up to his reputation on Oct. 5 when he told a congressional hearing that organized crime is rampant on Indian reservations. Trump went on to predict that if the trend toward gaming on Native American land continues, 'this will be the biggest crime problem in this country's history.'"[51]

Re Cohen

It's inaccurate to say that Cohen's viewpoint is so extreme that it should not be mentioned on this page. First, Cohen's book was published by a reputable university press, which means that it has been peer reviewed. Second, the BIA researchers corroborated Cohen's findings, but not the vague claims of the other authors. Finally, I have never seen any comprehensive genealogical linkage of core Ramapough families to ancestral Indians, and they were unable to prove any linkages to the BIA. If there is such evidence, show us the citations in which it can be verified. The only published genealogies I've seen on the Ramapough people is Cohen's.Pokey5945 22:10, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

How about Roger Joslyns report mentioned on the BIA list of evidence submitted? Are you going to ignore every other noted person on the list just to show Cohens work? Sound like you are a racist to me... what do have against the Ramapough anyway? Cohen is extreme because his view is outnumbered by professionals who have MORE credentials than he does. And he didn't work with anyone on the tribe to make his book so how can it be accurate? You fail to understand that just because the white man didn't write about us, that doesn't mean there's no proof. We have documents and we had proof. That's what Joslyn's report was about. And before you ask, NO you can't see Joslyn's results.. it's none of YOUR business. Isn't it enough for you to see it's on the BIA list for EVIDENCE OF PROOF?

How can you say Trump's info isn't relevant? That is the sole reason why we didn't get the recognition and everyone knows it. Did you even bother to go the website listed? Don't you think it's funny that the people on the lawsuit were the ones who determined the recognition? You can't be that narrowminded! This isn't hearsay, this is fact but because it proves our point, it's inadmissable to you right? Who the hell do you think you are????? I have had enough of this. I'm going over your head. No one gave you permission to print anything about us anyway and YOU should be sued for slander! Ramapoughnative1 22:55, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

This is an article for an encyclopedia. It's not for one-sided propaganda. The article includes a variety of viewpoints, including your characterization of Joslyn. If you can show some substantial linkage between Trump's suit and the BIA's decision, then it might be appropriate to include. But it's not appropriate to place unverifiable conspiracy theories in here.Pokey5945 23:02, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

So what are you saying? Joslyn isn't a Geneaologist? If this is suppose to be an encyclopedia than how about printing the truth. It seems you only want to push Cohen and he is ONE source. I have provided other points of view but they are ignored. this isn't about POV this is about truth. This is my family we're talking about. It's because of people like you, that we have to put up with such crap. How would you like it if people labeled you and you had to deal with it your whole life but, it wasn't true? I removed your B.S. statement of the BIA siding with Cohen. They did not. I reiterate this from the BIA document.

 (a) The petitioner has been identified as an American Indian entity on a substantially continuous basis since 1900. Evidence that the group's character as an Indian entity has from time to time been denied shall not be considered to be conclusive evidence that this criterion has not been met. Evidence to be relied upon in determining a group's Indian identity may include one or a combination of the following, as well as other evidence of identification by other than the petitioner itself or its members. 

(1) Identification as an Indian entity by Federal authorities.

(2) Relationships with State governments based on identification of the group as Indian.

(3) Dealings with a county, parish, or other local government in a relationship based on the group's Indian identity.

(4) Identification as an Indian entity by anthropologists, historians, and/or other scholars.

(5) Identification as an Indian entity in newspapers and books.

(6) Identification as an Indian entity in relationships with Indian tribes or with national, regional, or state Indian organizations.

We didn't fail this...We failed because no one in our history was fortunate enough to be documented by a white man to prove who we are 200 years later. You are a sad person. Do you get off on being a jerk? Does it give you power? I'd love to meet you sometime. Then YOU can tell me all about MY family, who we are and where we come from...

The BIA concurred with Cohen that the petitioners failed to meet criterion e, not criterion a:

"The Proposed Finding concluded that the RMI [Ramapough Mountain Indians] did not meet criterion 83.7(e) of the Federal acknowledgment regulations because the petitioner had not presented and BIA staff had not located any evidence that the earliest proven ancestors of the four core families, DeFreese, Van Dunk, Mann, and DeGroat, were Indian, were of Indian descent, or were affiliated with any of the tribes in the New York-New Jersey border area at the time of historic contact."

Please stop vandalizing the article just because you don't like contrary opinions. An objective NPOV article should include all relevant positions on the subject. Your personal claim to being an Indian is your business, but it doesn't give you any proprietary right to interpret history.Pokey5945 00:18, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Petition (a) states we are indians. Stop trying to spread your hate messages. What is your credentials to say who we are? You are not the authority here. I am. The BIA was very specific on why we failed. It was because they could't link us back to another tribe of the times. We don't work like that. So you think having people like 'Lone Bear' Reavy, 'Touching Leaves', the state of New Jersey, and most importantly, other Delaware tribes such as the Stockbridge Munsee Indians and others don't have any weight? Cohen's report is thoery because he couldn't find definitive proof. He states so in his book! Since his report is purely conjecture, where's your proof? And I have a right to defend myself against anyone who writes lies about me or my family! You are the one who is vandalizing this page. So, who are you? what are your credentials? Tell me what makes you an expert.

One more thing. Cohen's work is incomplete because there's at least 2 generations of geneaology missing due to the fire in Albany, N.Y., when the library burned down in the early 1900's. So, how could he make any absolute family connections and know the truth? Pure fabrication. How do I know the truth? Joslyn worked with us to get the truth. Cohen states the term 'mulatto' in his book. In those days, if you were Black, it would have been labeled as 'N' on the census. White was 'W', and Indians were 'M' for Mulatto. When Cohen wrote this book, he was a employed as a Research Associate at the NJ Historical Commission. You're going to take his word over 2 presidents of Archaelogical consulting firms and a certified Geneaologist? Let's not forget Herbert Kraft who was referred to as "The nation’s foremost scholar of the Lenape Indians and their traditions". But Cohen know more, right?

There is no need for you to make personal attacks. The fact that you disagree with Cohen's research does not automatically disqualify it from any mention on Wikipedia. His genealogies may or may not be accurate--I don't know. But they are published by a reputable university press, and his findings were corroborated by the BIA's refusal to acknowledge the group as a federal tribe because of no provable Indian ancestry in the core lines. This makes COhen's findings worthy of mention in the article. Whether you personally agree with Cohen or not is immaterial. Meanwhile, you are citing genealogies that are not verifiable. Wikipedia policy mandates that data in the encyclopedia by verifiable.Pokey5945 05:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

What you have written is not bad but...the other scholars did not take our heritage at 'face value' and I have removed that. The have done extensive studies and have come to their own conclusion. Don't belittle them because Cohen couldn't 'hold the door' open for them. Just as you want to be neutral, then stop trying to downplay the overwhelming evidence from others just to push Cohen theory. I notice you mentioned Cohen many times in this article. Why does he get so much play but the others who prove my side get one? You are not being neutral. Cohen lied. He DID NOT spend a year living amoungst the Ramapough as advertized in his book. Coming up for a day here and there on a weekend is not 'living amongst' anyone. If this is a lie then how much else is fabricated? As I stated before he does not have conclusive evidence who our ancestors are and he states this in his book so stop trying to say otherwise. Also, not everyone who lives on the Ramapough Mountain are part of the Ramapough Tribe. Manns, Defreeses, and others aren't the only families there. So lets make this real neutral. Since Cohen is one man with one opinion, he gets one mention, the same as the others. He is not the authority on the Ramapoughs. This way you get your say and I get mine. Let the reader make up their own mind. So you never answered my question. What's your qualifications? Why are you so hung up on the pushing negativity about the Ramapough? You act like you're Cohen! Ramapoughnative1 01:59, 29 January 2006 (UTC)