Talk:USS Liberty incident

Hi, I added some major points for the non-conspiracy theory arguments, as well as a link to the web site belonging to some of the survivors of USS Liberty. I recognize that I am biased, to some extent, due to my being an Israeli. However, when (and if) points are added to the pro-conspiracy theory arguments, I'd like them to be based on facts (mentioned in the body of the article), or refer to a reliable source (that is a source which takes into account the structure of the Israeli army, wittness accounts etc.) -- Uriyan.

Hoo boy! This page needs some NPOV lovin'. I can tell this is going to as contentious as some of our other fun topics like abortion and who shot JFK. -- ansible

Prepared and submitted by:

Joe Meadors

Vice President

USS Liberty Veterans Association

email: [email protected]

March 26, 2002

All right, sir, several things. First of all, I have nothing against you trying to issue your view. But in Wikipedia we don't do this at the expense of deleting other people's opinions, no matter how inane they seem to you. Indeed, among us it is popular to try to get into other people's argument. I will try to be considerate of your argument - but I will not be silenced. --Uriyan

My apologies. I didn't intend for my changes to become contentious. I saw some incorrect information in the posting that I changed and corrected. I thought the easiest thing was to recreate it from scratch.

I also included some information that you left out -- like the actions of the Israelis during the attack.

Feel free to add or modify it as long as your changes reflect the facts and not merely conjecture.

I'd be interested in learning your background as it involves the USS Liberty attack and where you acquired your interest and expertise in USS Liberty research. As for me, I am a USS Liberty survivor and have been on the Board of Directors of the USS Liberty Veterans Association for most of the past 20 years since the organization was formed. --Jmeadors

Hello,

First of all I'd like to thank you for stopping this flamewar and deciding to talk, as I see this as a first step in making the article better (i.e. equally representative of the two main points of view). Generally, in Wikipedia it is considered extremely impolite to delete someone else's individual comments (as you did with my criticism of Ennes), and it is even more impolite to replace an existing point of view with your own entirely. See neutral point of view and Wikipetiquette for more details about that.

I added my points to the article and changed their order to chronological. I also described the attack according to the Navy Court transcripts and moved some of your points to "controversy". You should note that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia - that is, as editors we're not supposed to have opinions. In order to state the opinions that every man obviously has, we state the appropriate fact (e.g. "no markings were seen on the Israeli aircraft") and then the particular opinions, mentioning their bearers ("The survivors of the ship claim that the attacking aircraft were unmarked").

My personal background is not as big as I could hope - which does not, however, invalidate my claims. I am an Israeli student fond of history; I've come across several mentioning of the USS Liberty incident in articles and books during the years. Several months ago, I saw a discussion at kuro5hin, and read some more. What I do have is some familiarity with the Israeli and Middle Eastern politics and history, and an Israeli perspective on things. --Uriyan

Would it be possible for me to "take advantage" of your interest in the Liberty? I'd like you to do some research for me. If you don't have any problem with it please email me at [email protected]. --Jmeadors

Unfortunately, I can't, since I'm a very amateurish historian with very little time to do serious research. If I do get some free time or if I come across something interesting, I can surely notify you.

In addition, I wanted to thank you for contributing to this article, and invite you to update it if you feel that my factual information is incomplete or you think that your point is misrepresented.

On a related note, while as far as I see, you've become interested with Wikipedia because of this particular article, I ask you to consider editing additional articles as well, because of your expertise as a Navy man and a researcher. --Uriyan

Let me post my request here in the event that some lurkers may be able to help.

For about 25 years we have had a copy of the IDF Preliminary Report 1/67 prepared in September, 1967 by a gentleman named Yerushalmi. It has come to be known as the Yerushalmi Report.

Since the account related by that report is so at odds with our recollections and in places defy the laws of physics we have been attempting to obtain a copy of the evidence and testimony that support the report. Unsuccessfully, I'm afraid.

If anyone has been able to obtain a copy of that evidence and testimony we'd appreciate it if you could provide us with a copy.

By the same token, if someone could pursue a course that would result in its being released and then provided to us we would be most appreciative. --Jmeadors

After having come back to this page after a couple days, I see that it is much improved! Kudos to everyone involved. -- ansible

I expanded the article some more trying to write what I'd figured out so far about who said what, perhaps more could be added. --Uriyan

As you add to your article could you also provide some footnote references to direct readers to the supporting documents? For example, where you say "the Israelis claim" or "the Americans claim" I'm sure readers will be interested in knowing exactly where your information is coming from. --Jmeadors

I restored the Israeli claims from memory (I remember reading quite a thorough discussion of the case from an old Army Encyclopedia, which I cannot, unfortunately, find anymore, and from an Army Lexicon which is quite brief), while most of the American claims are based on the statements you've made. If you feel that your opinion is misrepresented, feel free to change it. --Uriyan

With apologies in advance, it might be doing a disservice to readers of your synopsis not to let them know your account is being written from your recollections of the Army Encyclopedia and from a brief mention in an Army Lexicon.

I won't touch your wording and will adjust mine as appropriate.

You might want to see if you can get a copy of the "Preliminary Inquiry 1/67" (the Yerushalmi Report) prepared in September, 1967 and a copy of the IDF History Department Report of the attack published in 1982 as a direct result of the publication of Jim Ennes' book Assault on the Liberty. Both of those are "straight from the horse's mouth" so you won't have to depend upon the interpretation of intermediaries.

Different subject: In the history page that tells the modifications that have been made to the page it includes your screen name and a brief notation of the change you have made. I spent some time trying to find out how to do that but couldn't find the page telling me how. Could you direct me to it or tell me how? --Jmeadors

You need to special:UserLogin log in so the system knows who to assign your edits to. You need cookies enabled for this. (If you have trouble logging in, please give us details of the problem on the bug reports page.) Brion VIBBER, Thursday, March 28, 2002

Well, I'll add references when I get to the library (the Lexicon is easy but the encyclopedia might take some time). As to the two reports, I currently have neither the time nor the knowledge to locate them, but if I come across them accidentially, I'll probably study them. --Uriyan

"Don't have the time nor the knowledge" on how to conduct some basic research? I don't mean to be harsh, but perhaps you should have waited until you do have time to research the attack prior to writing an article about it. That would prevent your having to write one from your recollections of something you read some time ago.

A simple call to the IDF would be a logical first step.

I did a search of my computer files and came across an ASCII text of the Yerushalmi Report that was prepared many years ago.

I've taken the liberty of putting it up as an autoresponder. You or anyone else is free to obtain a copy of it by emailing [email protected] --Jmeadors

The reasons that I ever started seriously contributing to this article is (a) because it concerned Israel and (b) it presented the USS Liberty incident, which is ambiguous to say the very least, in a way that unambiguously threw all the blame unto Israel.

As to myself, I am only a student who is fond of history, not a historian. I have my studies, pending works, assignments (that make the Passover vacation more busy than most of the days during the rest of the year). USS Liberty is certainly an interesting area for serious researching (and when I get some spare time I will consider looking into it), but at this particular moment I can't do that.

"A simple call to the IDF": I don't call the army, I call a particular office in the army. What is its number? Where is it located? It is Passover now and most offices are closed. I did the homework I could do from the Internet; in the meanwhile, I can't do more than that.

I would gladly pass the editing to someone neutral and more knowledgeable than me now who could carry on editing impartially - but currently, I see no such person. Until one arrives (or I become one), I try to keep the article as fair as possible to both sides, considering their arguments.

By the way, could you please position the Yerushalmi report at a web server so that the article could link to it (considering copyright issues)? --Uriyan

I am endeavouring to obtain the name and phone number of someone you can contact in your efforts to initiate your research for the article you wrote. If I am successful I will post that information here.

The Yerushalmi Report (along with a lot of other information regarding the attack on our ship and subsequent cover-up) is available through our website at http://www.ussliberty.com -- Jmeadors

Well, first of all thank you for putting the material on your web site, could you say in what section exactly it can be found?

Secondly, it seems to me that it's better to discuss this article starting with what it is missing (as it is now) and then repairing/complementing it with research, not the other way around. Which parts, do you think, is the article missing? --Uriyan

The url for the Yerushalmi Report is http://www.ussliberty.org/excuse.txt

In that file there is a reference to a US State Department Legal Advisor's report. The url of that report is http://www.ussliberty.org/salans.txt

As to what to do with your article, I would recommend putting any further changes to the report on hiatus pending further research. You might even make a note on the article to that effect.

Once you have accumulated and closely scrutinized/analyzed a sufficient number of source documents, writing the article would be quite easy since your review of the documents would render you conversant in the various accounts that are floating around.

I have been in occasional email contact with Michael Oren (author of the New Republic article you include in your "See Also" section). I have asked Michael if he could provide the name(s) of people in the IDF you could contact to pursue your research.

Another contact you might make is with the newspaper correspondents or other media who report on IDF activities. They undoubtedly have their contacts/sources as well.

Clearly this will take time -- perhaps months -- to complete.

Please don't get overwhelmed.

After your initial contacts, most of your time will be spent on waiting for things to unfold. Then on following-up on questions you have as a result of your analysis of what has been provided.

I want to make it clear from the outset that should you decide to undertake the research I am describing that it helps us (Liberty survivors) in our efforts to ensure the actions before, during and after the attack are investigated, researched and reported as completely and as objectively as possible. -- Jmeadors

Just received email from Michael Oren with info on whom to contact at the IDF to pursue research on the USS Liberty.

He tells me, "contact Capt. Michal Yizraeli at 03-6942022. She's the officer in charge of such things at the Air Force History Branch. At the IDF History Department, there's Col. Shaul Shai at 03-569-3227." -- Jmeadors

and most Arabs

Tell me, why should anyone care what the Arabs think about the attack? It is not known of any Arab observers on the scene; in any other respect, the attack is solely a bilateral affair of Israel and the United States. Moreover, during the years the Arab media has supported a number of rather incredible theories (e.g. Protocols of the Elders of Zion), with the sole purpose of upsetting Israel. In fact, their vehement support of the "deliberate attack" theory only decreases its authenticity. --Uriyan

To Hefaistos: the USS Liberty was attacked only several hundred meters inside international waters (the Naval Court hearing states, for instance, that the Liberty had a clear view of the El-Arish mosque minarette). Moreover, the absence of ID marks on Israeli aircraft was never proven. As these aircraft were jets (moving quickly and having a large turn radius), I find it quite doubtful that either the presence or the absence of marks could be verified by anyone staying on board. Finally, I'm not sure that most crew members of the USS Liberty support the "deliberate attack" theory - I don't have much info so far, but all I managed to find so far is a site run by J. Meadors and J. Ennes, which does not even contain a guestbook. --Uriyan

Been spending a few minutes reading the Liberty article.

Notice it claims there were only two torpedoes fired from the Israeli torpedo boats.

The Israelis tell us they fired five. I believe it was in their 1982 History Department report that was prepared as a direct result of the publication of Jim Ennes' book Assault on the Liberty.

To address one point Uriyan raised in his post immediately preceeding this, every known USS Liberty survivor supports the position of the USS Liberty Veterans Association regarding the deliberateness of the attack (indeed, as voting members of the LVA they are the source of the position).

Perhaps he should modify his version of the account to reflect those facts. -- Jmeadors

First of all, my name is Uri.

Secondly, as far as I understand, the Liberty had only one hole shown here. If you claim five torpedos were fired then you've got to conclude that either the Israeli Navy was horrendously incompetent or that it didn't want them to hit the Liberty - and both points contradict what you're trying to prove.

Thirdly, while I've not seen a list of members or a guestbook at the site, I'll take your word for it and update the page accordingly.

Finally, I didn't quite understand what you meant by "let's not forget their use of helo-borne assault troops". --Uri

Shortly after the air attack helicopters appeared on the scene. One hovered very close to the port wing of the bridge where I was standing at the time. I clearly saw troops in the door in battle dress with what appeared to be automatic weapons at the ready. Talking to other Liberty survivors over the years reveals that others witnessed the same.

I am not the one claiming 5 torpedoes were fired. That claim is made in the IDF 1982 History Department Report. How that fact reflects upon the professionalism of the MTB personnel is for the reader to decide.

Since you are interested in researching the USS Liberty could you contact the IDF and ask that they release to you a complete set of the gunsight photos their aircraft took? In their 1982 version they included a couple of photos clearly selected to support their position. A review of all of the photos may reveal something else.

Warmest regards,

Joe Meadors [email protected] -- Jmeadors

Uri,

I notice you posted the dimensions and other specifics of the Liberty.

Could you post the same information for the el Quseir as well? I'm sure readers would find that information interesting and useful.

Also, for those of us who live in countries that have not yet moved to the metric system could you post the statistics in feet and inches as well?

Warmest regards,

Joe Meadors
[email protected]
Jmeadors 14:51 Oct 29, 2002 (UTC)

Joe,

First of all I'd like to remark that I do not currently engage in research regarding the USS Liberty, nor do I plan it for the nearest future. I do not fully dismiss that opportunity in the long run, however.

As to the subject:

As to the number of torpedos: it does sound very odd to me - the fact that only 1 out of 5 hit can't be explained by plain incompetence, particularly considering the ship's speed. So I can only persume that the report is wrong in that point. By the way, I couldn't locate in the Internet any info regarding the type of the boats or the torpedos.
This is the first time I've heard about the claim about helicopters. Judging by what you write, these are not the helicopters that brought the American attachè to the scene, and are mentioned in the Navy Court hearing. In what direction have they flown? At what time? (by the way, I'm yet to see a coherent chronology of the event). Is it the same helicopter as seen here? Also, it seems to me that most units that could have been landed from helicopters at the time have been verifiably engaged elsewhere. As I'm not an expert in IDF's order of battle in 1967, I can't be more specific.
It was not me who posted the details about USS Liberty's size. If you think the information about El-Quseir is relevant, feel free to add it. However, in that case one will also have to discuss to what extent the pilots could have measured that size. This seems to me like a very moot point, which would only lengthen the article without actually providing data in either way.

--Uri