Talk:Feminism

For older discussions see:

• Talk:Feminism (archive)
• Talk:Feminism/Archive 2
• Talk:Feminism/Archive 3 Debates from 2004 and earlier, 19.03.2004
• Talk:Feminism/Archive 4

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Subtypes of Feminism

The article "Feminazi" is linked under the label "feminazism" in the subtypes section of the article. I am not familiar with the feminist scene, but this seems to me that this is not a real faction of the feminist movement.

I propose someone deletes it - I won't do it myself, since I'm not sure about it. Another possible solution is to add clarification, either in the article or in the discussion page. -- User talk:85.250.94.165

Well, actually, if you read feminazism, there is a group of women using the label for themselves, so I think it's appropriate to keep it on this list. Mamawrites 10:52, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

There is no "feminazi" movement, group, or ideology (to my knowledge, at least); the article just mentions that some women are reclaiming the epithet. It's not correct to list it under subtypes. Dysprosia 10:55, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, you could certainly be bold and take it off the list of subtypes... but did you read the community info on the feminazis livejournal community? That's a lot of members who have labelled themselves a community, even if it's probably not enough members to be considered a bona fide movement. I don't feel strongly either way, which is why I was inclined to caution and preserving the status quo, but I wouldn't revert you if you feel that including it in the list is misleading. Mamawrites 17:29, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Sure, but then we have to concern ourselves of verifiability and whether a livejournal community is enough corroboration/sources etc. to be called a bona fide movement (I would argue it's not really about the numbers). If there is more concrete evidence to support the existence of a movement, then I may consider reverting myself, though. Dysprosia 03:58, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Do not delete or remove the feminazism article. Whether or not this group actually exists, this term is certianly real in that it is in use as a criticism/parody of feminism. The fact that there are feminists who are trying to reclaim the term is indicative of this and also should be mentioned in the article. Savidan 20:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

"Effect on heterosexual relationships" section

Is a quotation from "The Godfather" really the best way to illustrate a point about feminism? Catamorphism 02:15, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Hardly. I've removed it (be bold, in future!). Dysprosia 02:31, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I just didn't want to get into another edit war :-) Catamorphism 02:36, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I authored the paragraph with the Godfather quote. I understand your removing it, but I hope that alternative I proposed will be accepted. (I edited the article, but the change doesn't seem to have taken effect.) I believe it more fully explains the concept.

Your anecdote isn't appropriate for an encyclopedic article, and that's presumably why someone reverted it. There is no factual basis for the statement "few women seem attracted to men who engage in these activities to the detriment of their careers." Please review the Wikipedia editing guidelines (and sign your comments). Catamorphism 20:12, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

It is not my anecdote. It is a widespread opinion held by 90% of men. The opinion is represented by anecdotal evidence. For some propositions, there are no authorities to cite. I agree, for the most part, with your revision of my comments. However your deletion of my explanation of the viewpoint seems to have been done for reasons other than your interest in the page's integrity. There are assertions in this article with flimsy or no substantiation that somehow escape your scrutiny. Nathaniel

In addition to your deletion of my comments, I don't like your santization of my statements. Your editing reflects an unwillingness to accept information and a bias against the ideas behind them. Wouldn't it be appropriate for the article on feminism to be influenced by people other than lesbians from Berkeley? Nathaniel

Since I am not a lesbian from Berkeley, I do not understand your point. As to your claim that 90% of men (do you mean worldwide, in the US, or UK? Is it from a stratified sample? Random sample? What is the significance?) hold this opinion, what is your source? Do not violate our policies, Wikipedia: No original research and Wikipedia: Cite sources. Slrubenstein | [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 20:39, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat: Explain to me the following: why haven't you deleted the comments in the paragraph above mine for a lack of substantiation?

Women can now avail themselves more to new opportunities, but some have suffered with the demands of trying to live up to the so-called "superwomen" identity, and have struggled to 'have it all', i.e. manage to happily balance a career and family. In response to the family issue, many socialist feminists blame this on the lack of state-provided child-care facilities. Others have advocated instead that the onus of child-care not rest solely on the female, but rather that men partake in the responsibility of managing family matters.

Now compare that paragraph to my proposed paragraph. Tell me why the first paragraph's assertions are not in need of deletion, and why mine are.

Some men counter that this expectation is unrealistic, claiming a deemphasis on breadwinning would be injurious to their ability to attract mates; while many women have the choice to try to "have it all", they claim that societal expectations placed on men preclude them from devoting themselves further to domestic responsibilities. Proponents of this position cite the following anectodal observation: While men are derided for not devoting enough time to childrearing and domestic tasks, few women seem attracted to men who engage in these activities to the detriment of their careers.

The fact that I cite anecdotal evidence does not detract from its relevance or strength as an authority. As I mention above, some claims cannot be substantiated and it seems you are very selective about which claims you require an authority for.

An encyclopedia does not and should not contain anecdotal evidence for a source. All sources must be available and referenced. Dysprosia 21:25, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, Fair enough. Where is the substantiation for the paragraph that escaped your scrutiny and why haven't you deleted it? Because it contains facts more in line with your opinion? Why? Nathaniel

Nathaniel, we should put in more sources, that is true. Nevertheless, your "anecdote" is not an anecdote, it is not "anecdotal evidence" (look up the word anecdote in the dictionary). If you have a journal article or book you can cite as a source, by all means do so. Slrubenstein | [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 21:32, 22 November 2005 (UTC) SLrubenstein: Thank you for tacitly acknowledging that the paragraph left untouched does not have substantiation. My point is that this claim for "substantiation" has been selectively applied to a block of text with which the original editor did not agree. Since you acknowledge the lack of substantiation in the untouched paragraph, I hope you will be goodly enough to delete or alter it (and every other wikipedia article!) Secondly, I quote an anecdotal observation. I know what an anecdote is and do not need to look it up in a dictionary. But, to humor you, "Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: “There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems” www.dictionary.com. The "anecdotal observation" I cite to is that, in spite of women deriding men for not contributing to chores and childrearing, that they are ultimately concerned with a man's economic prospects. This is an assertion based on observation.., and so it is anecdotal.

Nathaniel: If you consider any of the specific sentences in the paragraph you cited to be anecdotes that can't be backed up with facts, please say which ones. I also don't understand your comment about "lesbians from Berkeley". Who are you talking about? Catamorphism 21:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat: 1. I apologize for any confusion that may have been caused by my lesbian remak. I was referring to your info page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Catamorphism. I assumed you were a lesbian based on your interest in "queer issues", perhaps this was an erroneous assumption. 2. You want me to quote sentences in the paragraph left untouched that "that can't be backed up with facts" yet you require me to cite specific sources to back up my assertions. You are applying a higher burden to me, which reflects your disdain for my comments. Quoting from the untouched paragraph: "Women can now avail themselves more to new opportunities, but some have suffered with the demands of trying to live up to the so-called "superwomen" identity, and have struggled to 'have it all', i.e. manage to happily balance a career and family." Women have "suffered the demands" to live up to the so-called supewoman? However true this might be, no authority for this proposition was cited. Here is my statement: "While men are derided for not devoting enough time to childrearing and domestic tasks, few women seem attracted to men who engage in these activities to the detriment of their careers." The fact that men are derided for neglect of domestic tasks so evident it even appears in the untouched paragraph you love so much! "Others have advocated instead that the onus of child-care not rest solely on the female, but rather that men partake in the responsibility of managing family matters." My second proposition, that women are unattracted to men who do not place a high value on economic success is so universally accepted to be obvious beyond the need for citation. You can even find it in Kanye West's music: "Now I ain't sayin she's a golddigger, but she ain't fuckin with no broke niggers." 3. Your editing my phraseology is also uncalled for. You seek to obfuscate my assertion by indirect language. "they claim that societal factors contribute negatively to the possibility of men devoting themselves further to domestic responsibilities." Contribute negatively? That is much less forward than my initial assertion, that men don't have the option to deemphasize work.

I know you are placing me to a higher burden because you don't like what I'm saying. But it is everybit as obvious as the stuff in the paragraph above mine, and I will find substantiation when I have time.

Since you don't even know what my gender is, it's perhaps uncalled-for to assume that I'm a lesbian. However, it makes more sense than taking a pop song to be an authoritative source. Since you don't seem to understand the concept of NPOV or the idea of "no original research", I'm through arguing this point with you. I note that most other editors won't take "but other parts of this article are wrong" as proof that your edits are right, either. When you become interested in contributing to an encyclopedia rather than advocating your own point of view, feel free to come back here. Catamorphism 00:39, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat: It's easy to say you're "through with this discussion" and cite some pretext for ending it. The fact remains that you are unable to justify your deletion and modification of my comments. You have take on the responsibility to defend your actions. Why don't you address my assertions? (I addressed yours in citing a specific sentence.) 1. The paragraph left untouched has no more substantiation than mine. 2. The fact that you deleted my comments reveal that you're selectively applying your zeal for substantiation. 3. The claims in my paragraph are no less factually-based than in the untouched article. 4. You were in no position to edit the grammar or arrangement of thoughts in my post.

P.S. I cite to Kanye West to show that the proposition needs no substantiation. Nathaniel

Nattiekins: Please review the guidelines for posting on Wikipedia. Any user can edit the grammar or arrangement of thoughts, or any other aspect, of any text in any article. If you find that any part of this article lacks substantiation, you can edit it to reflect that -- but you may find your edits will be reverted if you go against the spirit of Wikipedia, which I once again recommend you familiarize with. Also, Citing the song "Puff the Magic Dragon" doesn't prove that Puff, the magic dragon, lives by the sea and frolics in the autumn mist in a land called Hannalee. Catamorphism 03:17, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat: I have amended the article. I have posted a link of a commentator substantiating my claim. By following the link, you can listen to a radio program. The substantiation is about midway in the broadcast. Before you edit it, please tell me why, specifically you changed anything.

• Not sure how to cite that correctly. Anyone? --Mr. Dude ^{†@£К ║ Çøת†яĭβü†ĬŎИ} 03:29, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I could do it in legal (blue book) style, but I think that might be overkill. Yours seems appropriate. Nathaniel

Catamorphism: If you are not a lesbian from Berkeley, how do you explain the following page? http://queer.berkeley.edu/profile/displayInfo.php3?userid=897. The person's name is Kirsten Chevalier, the person's screen name is catamorphism, and the page is about queers at berkeley. I retract my apology for causing confusion. Nathaniel

I'm not sure what makes you think that someone who is queer is necessarily a lesbian. There are several types of queer people who are not lesbian: gay men, bisexual men and women, and genderqueer people, to name a few. I'm also not sure what anybody's sexual orientation has to do with this article. Catamorphism 07:05, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Sexual orientation is relevant because the part of the article we edited was "Effect on Heterosexual relationships." You didn't seem to want information about the heterosexual man's response to the issue, and you edited this paragraph more severely than the other ones where this information was absent.

Do you presume to speak for all heterosexual men? (Besides, as far as you know, I am a heterosexual man -- or a bisexual man, a bisexual woman, or an intersexed asexual.) I don't want text that's written in a POV fashion in this article. Catamorphism 08:27, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

There is no POV, certainly no more than there is in any other part of this article. Of course, this is an article on social issues. Whether it is apparent in the author's writing or not, we are presenting points of view on feminism's "effects on heterosexual relationships." When I came across this article, I saw several arguments attributed to feminists arguing from the woman's perspective. I saw none considering the other half of a heterosexual relationship---men. So no, I don't speak for all heterosexual men, but neither will I be bullied into watching this article be so one-sided. Certainly, if you object to my amendments on the ground of POV, I think the following should be deleted: "Women can now avail themselves more to new opportunities, but some have suffered with the demands of trying to live up to the so-called "superwomen" identity, and have struggled to 'have it all', i.e. manage to happily balance a career and family." Of course, it would be silly to delete this because it describes a cultural phenomenon. (although whether the women should be described as "suffering" seems dubious. Nathaniel

Nathanial: Cat's identity is irrelevant. His or her comments are based solely on Wikipedia policies, not his or her own personal beliefs. I have already asked you to consult those policies; now I ask you again. As for "anecdotal evidence" it is now crystal clear that you do not know what this phrase means; your explanation as to why your comment is "anecdotal evidence" proves that you do not know what it means. In any event, you are still violating our policies. I do not care what you believe, and I do not care what your additions are claiming. I do care that you follow policy. Slrubenstein | [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 14:35, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Y'all keep saying I violate the policies, and you state the rules. That is not enough, you need to show how the facts in the current situation violate the policies. Apply the rules to the facts. Additionally, if you have a problem with my use of the word "anecdotal," you should start by addressing my defense of it, above. The mere recitation of rules and gainsaying gives you an aura of authoritativeness, but it does little to convince. Catamoprhosis systematically removes edits containing information on the male perspective. (Look through this entire page for evidence of it.) Her identity becomes relevant because it bears directly on the agenda she carries to this process; her recitation of rules and selective enforcement of the policies does little to cloak this. Nathaniel

Nathaniel, let me try to walk you through it one step at a time. I am quoting what I take to be a fairly complete expression of your position (if I am missing something, please let me know).

But, to humor you, "Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: “There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems” www.dictionary.com. The "anecdotal observation" I cite to is that, in spite of women deriding men for not contributing to chores and childrearing, that they are ultimately concerned with a man's economic prospects. This is an assertion based on observation.., and so it is anecdotal.

Now, let us look at this closely.

• “There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems” is not itself an "anecdotal claim." It is a statement about anecdotal claims. Your quote from www.dictionary.com does not provide any anecdotal evidence, it merely claims that anecdotal evidence exists to support this proposition.
• in other words, an anecdotal claim is not a claim "based" on anecdotes; it provides the anecdotes that support the claim
• similarly, the claim that "in spite of women deriding men for not contributing to chores and childrearing, that they are ultimately concerned with a man's economic prospects" is not an anecdotal statement or observation. It is a statement that claims to be supported by anecdotal evidence. But the statement itself does not provide the anecdotal evidence.
• So there are actually two claims that you are making. First, you are claiming that "in spite of women deriding men for not contributing to chores and childrearing, that they are ultimately concerned with a man's economic prospects." Second, you are claiming that the previous claim is supported by anecdotal evidence.
• You make a distinction between claims that are based on "casual observations or indications" versus "rigorous or scientific analysis." Fine. No one is objecting to your including a claim based on "casual observations or indications" rather than "rigorous or scientific analysis." This is not the issue.
• The issue is whether your two claims (first, that in spite of women deriding men for not contributing to chores and childrearing, that they are ultimately concerned with a man's economic prospects; second, that the first claim is backed up by anecdotal evidence) is verifiable and is not original research. There is a very easy way that you can demonstrate that these two claims are verifiable and not original research: provide your sources If you have any question as to what would constitute a valid source, please follow the links to the policy pages, where it is all spelled out in detail.
• In the meantime: we still have no source for the claim that "in spite of women deriding men for not contributing to chores and childrearing, that they are ultimately concerned with a man's economic prospects" (i.e. who says this, and where) — nor do we have a source for the claim that this proposition is supported by anecdotal evidence (i.e. who says they have anecdotal evidence to support this claim, and where do they provide the anecdotal evidence?)

I hope it is now very clear to you "how the facts in the current situation violate the policies." Here is how: you have asserted a proposition that makes two claims, and you have failed to provide a verifiable source for either claim; since you have failed to do so, it appears as if you are expressing your own opinion, which violates our NOR policy. Capiche? Slrubenstein | [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 00:01, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I have provided a source to substantiate my claim, which is more than can be said for the vast majority of statements in the page. Why haven't you addressed my assertion that the paragraph above mine lacks substantiation and so is in need of deletion? Or that Cat's cry for verification has been selectively applied? The observation that chicks are into guys with money can be characterized as anecdotal because we see it all the time, although few of us have read statistics or conducted field research on the matter. That is to say, this conclusion to which many people come is "Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis" (www.dictionary.com). So we can describe it as an anecdotal observation.... an observation based on anecdote, or "casual observation... [and not] rigorous or scientific analysis." The observation that women deride men for their lack of participation in chores is substantiated by my link to the commentator (although, unless you have been asleep for the past several decades, this should sound familiar.) The observation that men are in no position to deemphasize work to devote themselves to chores is also supported by the comments on the show at the provided link. Your bullet-points and condescension are unhelpful. Nathaniel

Am I correct that your "anecdotal evidence" is a quote from The Godfather? If so, then I stand by what I wrote: you do not understand what anecdotal evidence is, and you are violating our key policies. The quote from the movie is not an adequate source for the claim you make. The quote from the movie only proves that this is what Mario Puzo believes a particular fictional character would say. That is all it proves. It does not support any more general claim. You can accuse me of being condescending all you want, but every time you write you provide more evidence that you have either not read or not understood our key policies. Slrubenstein | [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 20:28, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

The Godfather quote is not at issue here, I did not object to its removal. Nathaniel

What is the source of your evidence, then? I am not challenging you, I really don't know. It is hard to reconstruct the various changes to the article, and since you haven't registered I can't tell what you added. Slrubenstein | [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 22:16, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

See above (it is an radio program, the discussion of my amendment to the article is found about halfway into the mp3.) Nathaniel

Can you tell me which radio program? And what do you mean "about halfway into the mp3?" I desrched form "mp3" on both the talk and articler page and found nothing; I also looked halfway down both the talk and article pages and did not see any source for your claim. Can't you just tell me what the claim is and what the source is? Slrubenstein | [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 07:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Look at the current version of the page. Find the link for Glenn Sacks. The sentence directly before the link is the claim. Follow the link. There is a link to an mp3 there. Listen to the mp3. The radio program substantiates my claim that 1) men are derided for not spending more time on the kids and 2) men don't think they can because chicks are not interested in men who do not have careers. Nathaniel

I would have thought that it was common knowledge that women place a high value on income when rating men for attractiveness, but as it apparently isn't here's pleanty of sources to cite. emphasis mine Churchofmau 09:46, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

• From http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/aseb/1997/00000026/00000003/00423348

• • "Abstract:

• • "Results of three independent studies supported predictions derived from evolutionary theory: Men's assessments of sexual attractiveness are determined more by objectively assessable physical attributes; women's assessments are more influenced by perceived ability and willingness to invest (e.g., partners' social status, potential interest in them). Consequently, women's assessments of potential partners' sexual attractiveness and coital acceptability vary more than men's assessments. The proposition that polygamous women's assessments of men's sexual attractiveness vary less than those of monogamous women (because the former allegedly are more influenced by target persons' physical attributes) was also tested. In Study 1 male college students showed more agreement than females in their rankings of the sexual attractiveness of opposite-sex target persons. Target persons' flesh and bodily display enhanced this sex difference. In Study 2 men exhibited less variance than did women in their ratings of target persons' acceptability for dating and sexual relations. Women who viewed models described as having low status showed more variability than did women in the high-status condition. In Study 3 women showed more variability than men did in their ratings of 20 opposite-sex celebrities' sexual attractiveness. Studies 2 and 3 included the Sociosexual Orientation Inventory (SOI)—a measure of polygamous attitudes and behavior. Women's SOI scores did not affect the variability of their assessments in either Study 2 or 3. In Study 3 men with low SOI scores showed less variability than did men with high SOI scores. Alternative explanations of the findings are examined. Theoretical and empirical implications are discussed."

• from http://www.drmillslmu.com/Sexdiffs/spr01/panel4.HTM

• • ""An experiment conducted by six psychologists to tell whether or not women placed the same weight of importance on attractiveness as men do, and if not how they differ. "College students saw pictures of the opposite sex and of various levels of physical attractiveness in different costumes. They then reported on how willingly they would be to enter different types of relationships with people like the one in the picture-from coffee and conversation though dating, sexual relations, and marriage. The high-status costume consisted of a white dress shirt with a designer paisley tie, a navy blazer thrown over the left shoulder, and a Rolex wristwatch. Female models a white silk blouse, a navy blazer thrown over the left shoulder, and a women's Rolex. To depict medium status, models wore an off-white shirt and khaki slacks. For low social status the models wore the uniform of a well-known fast food chain: a baseball cap and a polo shirt with the company logo showing. Male and female models were matched for physical attractiveness" (Townsend 63). Men generally agreed that they would date the attractive model, no matter what she was wearing. However, women only wanted to date those men that they saw as equals or above their own status.

• • The six psychologists therefore concluded that women require more proof of stability and investment in their rating on attractiveness, where as men only seemed to require attractiveness. Where men must see fertility and youth, women must see proof of status and accomplishment. But, women also need to see that the man that she has been considering as a mate is chased after and admired by other women. Positive information made the man more attractive where negative information excluded him from consideration. Since the women put more into reproducing, everything from gamete size to length of nurturing for her offspring, social information about her potential mate is important. And when considering the factors of male abuse and the high risk of flight, obtaining this information is crucial to choosing a mate. Men, on the other hand, while they seem to look for a partner they can keep, they basically judge the woman they are dating on physical characteristics.""

• from http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/servlet/useragent?func=synergy&synergyAction=showAbstract&doi=10.1046/j.1439-0310.2002.00757.x

• • "Sexual selection theory classically posits consistent and directional mate-preferences for male traits that provide benefits to females. However, flexible mate-choice tactics may persist within a species when males display multiple desirable features that confer different benefits to females under variable environmental conditions. Ecological factors such as population density, resource demand, and sex ratio can influence the value that female animals place on certain male characteristics across mating environments. In this study, I used human mate-preference data from `lonely hearts' advertisements in the newspapers of 23 cities in the USA to assess geographic differences in female preferences for male traits (e.g. physical attributes, resource-holding potential, emotional characteristics, personal interests) in relation to these ecological parameters. I found that females placed more emphasis on the resource-accruing ability of prospective mates in densely populated cities and cities having greater resource demands (higher cost of living). In contrast, women from densely populated or resource-demanding cities placed less emphasis on the emotional aspects or personal interests of males. Preferences for physical features were not environmentally linked, but instead were a function of the degree to which females advertised their own physical attractiveness. Collectively, these results suggest that certain mate-choice criteria employed by women are sensitive to variation in local environmental conditions and that variable levels of resource or mate availability may favor different mating tactics across human populations."

• and http://www.coppin.edu/JRMA/volume11/Article2_v11n1.PDF
• and http://www.landofangels.de/py1/sadalla-etal-1987.pdf

etc... Churchofmau 09:46, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Just some ideas... Firstly, Catamorphism, Slrubenstein, et al.: If it's so all-fired important to Nathaniel, why don't you folks cite a source or two on the "superwoman" article? Surely it can't be that difficult to find an academic source on this - I'd do it right now myself, but I'm about to go to sleep. It seems to me that his major concern (well, one of them) is seeing that substantiation is being applied indiscriminately. Given that a lot of Wikipedia articles don't have extensive in-text citation, this may seem like a somewhat excessive demand, but given the circumstances (i.e. the lengthy debate this has provoked) it might not be a bad idea.

Secondly, I think that there's the potential for this section to be supplemented by a section on the effects of feminism on non-heterosexual relationships. Broadly speaking, the section deals with the re-appraisal of traditional gender roles; I'm not much up to snuff on my queer theory, but I imagine that this affects at least some people in non-heterosexual relationships as well, since being non-hetero doesn't automatically equate to being non-gender normative.

Thirdly, the McGraw article currently being cited to support Nathaniel's paragraph seems from the abstract to deal with the manner in which wealth-based attraction varies in different environmental situtations. I gather from the abstract that the author's findings show that there is considerable variance in different contexts, so this seems to me to be at best ambiguous support for Nathaniel's paragraph... maybe someone with access to the full text of the article (and lots of free time) can read it and comment. Also, the abstract of the Townsend article states that "women's assessments are more influenced by perceived ability and willingness to invest (e.g., partners' social status, potential interest in them)." It seems to me that "perceived ability and willingness to invest," "social status," and especially "potential interest in them" encompass a good deal more than simply monetary wealth. Again, if someone has access to the full text and is willing to read and comment on this, please do.

I hope some of this is helpful. Both arguments are dealing in pretty massive generalizations, but that's the trouble with brief encyclopedia articles, I guess - you just have to get the information out. 65.94.183.247 08:07, 9 January 2006 (UTC)Venceremos

I have changed the wording at the end of the previous sentence: "Some men counter that this expectation is unrealistic, claiming a de-emphasis on breadwinning would be injurious to their ability to attract mates; while many women have the choice to try to "have it all", they claim that societal expectations placed on men preclude them from devoting themselves further to domestic chores and childrearing. " It used to read "devoting themselves further to domestic responsibilities." This language is conclusory: a "responsibility" implies that it is something the person is responsible for. The implication with the use of this word is that men are responsible for childrearing and domestic chores, and reflects POV on the part of the author. Nathaniel

Someone has edited "chores and childrearing" to "work." This is not the level of specificity desired: does "work" encompass childrearing activities? I am amending it back, although I invite discussion. Nathaniel

Someone added the following sentence: "As a counter to these arguments, Arlie Russell Hochschild's books The Second Shift and The Time Bind present evidence that married men contribute much less time towards child care and housework than their wives do; men who are already married are unlikely to be concerned about attracting new partners." I am willing to bet that the sources cited substantiate the part of the sentence before the colon. I am skeptical that the assertion made following the colon is dealt with in the source: it seems to have been a convenient place to interject the author's PERSONAL counterargument. Does this source really say that men are unlikely to be concerned about attracting other mates because they're married? I doubt it. Nathaniel

Catamporphism: are you willing to provide pages to the information you suggest? A readily accessed citation is helpful. If not available, certainly the page number of the book would due. Also, you talk about studies "Hothschild cites," but what are the studies? It is irresponsible scholarship when discussing a work to note cite the original sources of the data. Nathaniel

I'd be more likely to believe that your constant criticism of every sentence in this article that doesn't mesh with your POV is in good faith if you were citing sources that reflected scholarly research, rather than a Google search. Catamorphism 00:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

In addition, I'd be interested in seeing citations to studies that show that there is a statistically significant incidence of divorces because women found their husbands' interest in doing domestic work to be unattractive. You don't say this explicitly, but it seems to be what you are implying with the qualifications you've inserted into the relevant paragraph. Catamorphism 00:37, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Glenn Sacks did not come from a google search, although I guess it is helpful that he could be. Certainly, all one need do is follow the link to verify the appropriateness of a citation. He is a noted commentator on issues affecting males, and has a radio program. I do not mean to imply that women want to divorce husbands who do domestic work. I don't understand how you got this. It is your POV view that motivates this continued discussion. You want your "queer" perspective to dominate this article. You are so confused about gender politics that you will not even admit to your own gender (see above.) You would seem an unlikely candidate for a disinterested edit of an article concerning gender politics.

In any event: (1) Please provide a page number for the citations you provide. It is perhaps unrealistic to expect that a person desiring to verify the authenticity of your assertions will read 600 pages in the hopes of coming across the thought you alluded to. (2) Additionally, please address the concern I raised above about which statistical studies Hothschild is referring to. Your latest addition looks to me like a narrative. (3) Why have you deleted my latest comments?

For the sake of thoroughness, it would be helpful to address my concerns by number. Sincerely, Nathaniel

Please read Wikipedia:No personal attacks; note that "Racial, sexual, homophobic, religious or ethnic epithets directed against another contributor" are included in the category of "personal attacks". Also note this section: "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views - regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme." Catamorphism 07:10, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Umm. Ok. Are you going to address my concerns? You keep getting distracted. Your attempt to discredit me through mentioning that I am showing POV is no different than my comments about you. You're trying to paint me as the bigot, which is untrue. I am merely trying to prevent you from letting your fringe bias affect this article too much. I bring up your "status" because it bears directly on my counterargument: that YOU are the one with the agenda. This long discussion, after all, takes place in the "effect on heterosexual relationships" part of the article. That you are an angry dyke from Berkeley vindicating the wrongs you think your gender suffers is central to this discussion. My pointing it out does not affect the cogency of the claims I have made above.

I have given up on this argument, however. It is too time consuming and I somehow imagine you have more energy for this task. I would, however, request that someone who reads this thread edit the paragraph in question so that it does not contain vague citations that are impractical to verify, narrative summaries of works that lack proper citation, and the bias evident in it. Nathaniel

Antifeminism?

Ive been pointed to Antifeminist, which was a pretty massively POV rant. I've briefly rewritten it to be neutral, trimmed it down to a couple of representative antifeminist links, but I know very little about the topic and would appreciate someone competent having a go at it. And that someone will almost certainly be reading this page, I guess. Thanks all. Shimgray | talk | 16:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Looks like a good job to me. Catamorphism 18:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Women's Aid

Women's Aid needs some help too (ie checking edits by user 81.179.69.218 --Melaen 20:56, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Feminist Quotations

Why does the article have three subsections with the same title (Feminist Quotations) ? --Melaen 20:47, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion, the "feminist quotations" should be removed altogether. It strikes me as inconsistent with NPOV to list only negative/intolerant quotations from feminists. This presents a skewed version of feminism that, I would argue, misleads a naive reader as to what feminism actually is.

If no one expresses strong objections, I plan to remove these sections and reduce the section to a discussion of the debate about the real intentions of feminists, acknowledging that some critics dispute feminists' claim to support equality and that they attempt to support such claims with compendia of selected quotations. --67.52.158.62 20:12, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Do remove the extraneous subsection titles. Do not removed the quotations. At least not all of them. If you want, balance them with other quotations that you deem less exteremist, perhaps even categorizing the quotations by different schools of feminism. Your claims about what "feminism actually is" will invariably contain a POV, just like the quotations. I think one of the things that needs to be conveyed in this article is that feminism means different things to different people, with different goals, stategies, world views etc. 69.22.42.35 20:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

What purpose do these cherry-picked quotations serve other than to give the reader the impression that feminists in general are extremists? Sure, one could balance these with an equal number of quotations by feminists showing they favor equality, but that would give the impression that feminists are divided on the issue of equality. A fair examination of feminism should not give that impression either. It seems easiest simply to delete the quotations altogether. I entirely agree we need to convey that feminism means different things to different people, and we even need to represent those who believe feminism is a thinly veiled female supremacist philosophy. But it is not Wikipedia's business to provide evidence in the form of quotations for one view or the other (or even both). Response? --67.52.158.62 21:24, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

• The obvious point to make here is that we have Wikiquote for quotations, so we may as well use it. Any list of quotations used as an addition to the article is a problem, since they're not able to be given context in the actual text, and very rarely make a useful summary of the article's main points. Here, we have what is essentially a vehicle for saying "lookee, feminist cranks", which doesn't really bring much to the article that couldn't be achieved by picking one, and mentioning that it's representative of many which are often quoted by detractors, many claim this is wilfulk skewing context, they're probably fairly extreme... and so on. The Marylin French quote would be a good one for that. As it is, we've got four or five thousand characters which really don't need to be in here.
• Yes, we can categorise quotations by various forms of feminism, we can add balancing quotations... and at the end, we still have a mostly contextless list of quotations that really doesn't help the article much, and has increased to four or five times the size. We have a sister project for this sort of thing. I don't see why we shouldn't use it. Shimgray | talk | 00:22, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

There's a further argument to be made, and that is that there is already an article on Radical feminism, where such radical quotations could find a better home. --66.167.162.55 16:08, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

In general, I think quotation in wikipedia articles should be limited, but here is an exmaple (a fictional one, mind) of how a quotation might legitimately be incorporated in an article:

In 1993, noted feminist scholar and activist Jane Smith wrote in an article for Feminist Quarterly that "all men, without exception, are evil and unredeemable". This generated a firestorm of controversy in the press. Initially, Smith claimed the remark was intentional hyperbole and not meant to be taken literally. She later admitted that she regretted the remark and asked Feminist Quarterly to issue a brief statement of retraction.

This sort of thing gives some context to a quotation because it deals with the author's claims about her intention and (in this case) eventual retraction. In the case where an author does not retract or explain a quotation, some discussion should be given to her critics' response to the statement. --67.52.158.62 21:14, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I've cut the quotations, picked one, and written a little bit on how quotes like this are often used out-of-context and somewhat hyperbolically. The quote, incidentally, is from The Women's Room, 1977, if anyone wants to check it - Amazon has a search-inside-this-book I checked it against. However, my section is really badly written, and a redraft would be nice... Shimgray | talk | 21:55, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Come to think of it, that section should really be in Contemporary criticisms of feminism rather than out on its own, anyway...

I've moved it up, but it still doesn't blend in well. To be honest, we could just as easily lose it - it's not like misleading quotes are a problem unique to feminism. Shimgray | talk | 22:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your work. I would disagree that we shouldn't mention the issue contextless quotes. Though perhaps not unique to feminism, such arguments are a big part of the critique of feminism (whether you wish to call that critique fair or not). Many people who seem to be permanently put off feminism cite, e.g., the Dworkin quote about all sex equalling rape (or whatever it is she actually said) as justification for their attitude. This hypersensitivity to the most extreme viewpoints in feminism does characterize much of the critique of feminism, in my opinion. I'll give a crack at "blending" when I have time. --67.52.158.62 00:25, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Archive

I've archived some of the older material; this page was getting huge. Apologies if I accidentally caught any current conversations. Shimgray | talk | 15:14, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Needing trimmed

We have a massive section of "Famous Feminists", just a list of names. Is there any reason these can't be transferred to the List of notable feminists? The external links section is also far, far too large - do we really need forty links of sites which are either supportive of or opposed to feminism? Shimgray | talk | 14:20, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

• I agree with both points.--Fenice 22:15, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

eurocentric

eurocentric --ppm 20:47, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Of course it's Eurocentric (assuming you include America, of course). Most people who read and write the Wikipedia articles are in Europe or America (for now). English is a "Eurocentric" language. If you think that non-Western views are lacking, then by all means add them! Robotbeat 03:33, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

The project Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias is extremely important (in my opinion of course!) for approaching this issue... Mostlyharmless

Yeah. That's a good project. I think that Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias says what I meant a lot more reasonably than how I said it: "As long as the demographic of English speaking Wikipedians is not exactly identical to the world demographic, the vision of the world presented on the English Wikipedia will always be askew." Robotbeat 06:36, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

"THE traditional..."

"..there have been some consequences that can be catalogued as negative from the traditional point of view on morals."

What is "the traditional point of view on morals" that you are referring to? This sentence assumes that humans have a shared traditional point of view on morals, which is sorta bogus.

Perhaps you are talking about Polygyny in Nigeria? Egalitarianism amongst certain foragers? Oh, I know, The social beliefs of the Iroquois! Does anyone mind if I chop off "from the traditional point of view on morals", leaving a period after "negative"?

24.148.69.57 11:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I think we can all agree that "the traditional" should go, unless you add another adjective (e.g. Christian, Western, Bourgois). Go for it. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:45, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Feminism's take on particular issues, contemporary criticism

I might have been vague in my description of this particular criticism because Catamorphism's addition is not related. The central perspective is that feminism as an ideology postulates the ability to engage in political affirmation in the full breadth of the debatable spectrum. The example given is nuclear power, which would prerequisite a idiosyncratic female viewpoint on whether the use of this particular energy source is desirable on the basis of its scientific and social ramifications. This notion is, naturally, refuted by many. It does not entail the number of women involved in opposition or advocation of the subject. I suggest the paragraph is corrected and clarified. - Shoplifter

I understood your point just fine, but since you apparently didn't understand that my edit was related to it, I've clarified a bit. Catamorphism 02:02, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I still disagree with the addition, despite being clarified (and different than the previous edit). Prima, nuclear power is not necessarily an intrinsically humanitarian issue that would involve a facet of societal hazard but rather a scientific inquiry (what's the female viewpoint of science?). Furthermore, if the argument is raised that women holds a latent nurturing quality linked to motherhood or the possibility of such development there must be a preceding argument describing this thesis (along with some sort of evidence, preferably, as the notion of gender interconnected to particular behavioral qualities is highly disputed). The isolated declaration without reference does not cut it for an encyclopaedia. Shoplifter

First, I don't believe that gender implies behavioral qualities. I think the paragraph makes it pretty clear that "gender implies behavioral qualities" is a particular POV held by some feminists. Second, your original addition to the article, that describes criticisms of feminism as an ideology because it is not all-encompassing, is also unsourced. Who is making these criticisms? Maybe the entire paragraph needs to go. Catamorphism 07:50, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The relation between womanhood and specific behavioristic consequences is certainly a POV, but who holds it? Is it a unified movement that deserves notation? In regard to feminism as an ideological endeavor in the political spectrum; there have been several examples of newly emerging political parties that holds feminism as their ideological foundation (not an isolated agenda, see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_Initiative_%28Sweden%29). These groups argue that feminism can function as the underlying argument for political action within the entire width of politics, a claim which has been rejected in the national debate (such as in the case with FI).

Ok. Devil's Advocate, here. In zoology one studies the biological and behavioral differences between different species, within those species different stages of development (larvae, adult, etc.), and within those stages of development the different sexes (if not asexual). If those categories are seen in the context of zoology as scientifically valid (which they ARE.), then why is it deemed "subjective" to imply ANY (no matter how small) possibility of general biology-based behavioral tendency differences between the human sexes? It seems to me like one is denying scientific reasoning when one implies that there are NO biology-based behavioral tendency differences between men and women. (For instance, the behavioral tendency of women to breast-feed their infant children is much greater than the behavioral tendency of men to breast-feed their infant children. Do you disagree?) I am not denying egalitarianism or anything like that, but to deny any possibility that sex contributes to behavioral tendencies is to abandon sound reasoning. Robotbeat 20:16, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I am certainly not propounding indifference toward biological distinction, anatomic benefits or anything of the like. My point during this discussion has been the fact that there is a widespread movement cropping up (as seen in the establishment of influential political parties) who propose that feminism, the female perspective, can be fully applicable in every politcal dispute. This view has in turn been criticized on the very grounds that while womanhood surely may imply a biological slant towards breast feeding it does not entail a specific view on nuclear science. I do not believe that the current view on the critcism page accurately reflects this debate, and my objection remains that if it should be noted that there is a movement that holds feminity as equal to specific political views then they better back it up with actually existing as well, and not just as a theoretical experiment in the mind of a Wikipedia editor. Shoplifter

"they better back it up with actually existing as well, and not just as a theoretical experiment" Agreed. Wikipedian NPOV isn't about including all POV without basis. If there are different (especially for unusual) POVs, then they should give a specific reference. This is kind of what Catamorphism said a week ago. Robotbeat 13:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed that many of the criticisms in this section are stated without stating who has made these criticisms, or citing a source where they are made. I added a few {{fact}} tags, and probably there are more places where they could be added. Catamorphism 22:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Partisan alert

I've been looking through the articles about feminism and related topics, and one thing that stands out is the constant partisan junk in every article. Please understand that trying to further one's own biased views only makes one look less credible. It also runs counter to all underlying principles of Wikipedia, and only ends up producing worthless articles. Try to be more neutral! For example, the second picture in this article shows an anti-suffrage stand, with the subtext "Feminists have struggled to overcome power-based barriers throughout the movement's history." This is not only ambiguous, but also extremely partisan. What power barriers? According to whom? Who are the people in the photo? What did they stand for, and why did they end up losing? Stick to the facts, not to opinions. Fuzzform 20:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I think everybody knows that any article on Wikipedia about which some people have opinions will contain content that isn't completely NPOV. If you don't like something, be bold and improve it; complaining about it doesn't accomplish much. Catamorphism 23:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

First paragraph, last sentence

Feminism is a diverse collection of social theories, political movements, and moral philosophies, largely motivated by or concerning the experiences of women, especially in terms of their social, political, and economic situation. As a social movement, feminism largely focuses on limiting or eradicating gender inequality and promoting women's rights, interests, and issues in society. It also embraces greater opportunity for men to transcend the narrow gender roles and norms of masculinity that have traditionally confined them.

That last sentence seems pretty POV to me. Opinions? -GTBacchus^(talk) 02:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I've reworked it a bit, but feel free to edit it yourself if you feel it's still POV. Catamorphism 07:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Much, much better. That's the type of wording that should make up the entire article.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.138.214.102 (talk • contribs) .

POV? I'm not sure.

The paragraph in 'criticism of feminism' which discusses anti-feminist views and how they use hyperbolic statements written by feminists out of context was reverted by user Alienus after I added the final sentance here:

"Other quotations that some anti-feminists cite to indicate their belief that feminism is anti-male include Gloria Steinem's famous slogan "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle", or Andrea Dworkin's quote from her novel Ice And Fire: "I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.". Feminists might respond that Steinem's slogan is a statement of the need for women to be independent, not a statement against men, and that quotes from fictional works may not represent the point of view of their authors. Though the anti-feminist may in turn respond to these explanations with accusations that they are disingenuous rationalizations or perhaps tantamount to apologia."

Though the reader (or Alienus) may not agree with the last statement I do not think that it expresses any POV of the article proper. It is the POV of the feminist and the anti-feminist which is being detailed. What we are discussing here is how anti-feminists use the most exceptional, exaggerated and scandalous statements of feminists in attempt to discredit the entire movement by framing those statements as being exemplary of all of feminism. That's dumb, we know that. But the paragraph's explanation of what a feminist would respond to such accusations with (debatable rationalizations at best imho which are just as POV as the last sentance I added) needs a counterpoint of what an anti-feminist would think of the explanation. The anti-feminist would very likely argue that the Dworkin quote especially is "hate speech" and the claim that 'well, its just fiction' or 'that's not really what the author means' would certainly provoke a response of criticism in return. What do you think?--Deglr6328 08:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)