Talk:Disco

Easy listening

Would it be blasphemy to suggest that disco also owes a lot to the so-called "easy listening" music that was popular before and alongside it?

I'm not sure what religion you are a part of, but Robert Fink makes the comparison, through minimalism or "repetitive music", in his (2005) Repeating Ourselves: American Minimal Music as Cultural Practice. ISBN 0520245504. Hyacinth 14:00, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Waka guitar

"Disco also had a characteristic electric guitar sound (somebody who plays electric guitar should explain the effect used)."

Yes, please.  :-) Koyaanis Qatsi, Saturday, July 6, 2002

wakka-chakka wakka-chakka wakka-chakka (biddle-um, biddle-um, biddle-um baaahhhh...). Who's the black private dick who's the sex machine to all the chicks? SHAFT!!!. I think you all know what that sound is now... Graham 04:59, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It was a Wah-Wah pedal. => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wah_wah

First US Disco

The article stated that:

"The Whisky A Go-Go night club in Los Angeles, was the first disco in the United States. It opened on January 11, 1962."

However, in the opinion of Jones and Kantonen (1999), Le Club was the first disco (in New York) in 1960. Hyacinth 21:09, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Removed

• While the anti-disco backlash was primarily a white phenomenon in the U.S., little overt racism was associated with the phenomenon there, where the most fervant disco-hating rock fan could simultaneously consider Jimi Hendrix the greatest guitar player who ever lived.

I removed the above sentence because:

1. I don't know if overt racism was associated with the US disco backlash, but it was seemingly covert, and the sentence attempts to show that it was not racist.
2. Considering Jimi Hendrix the greatest guitar player who ever lived is not proof that one is not racist. It is similar to the unverifiable argument, "I'm not racist, I have black friends!" Also, appreciation of Hendrix's talent could be entirely racist with his physical skill and rhythm being attributed to his ethnicity.

However, I wish to note that I created much of the edited content, and the sentence above was added as a reaction to my POV. As such the article is better off than before. What do you think User:64.73.98.126?

Hyacinth 21:35, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Europe

I think the article could do with some input from a European perspective. Northern Soul was a progenitor but "discos" were popular throughout the 70s in all of Europe. Another factor which must have had a lot to do with disco's popularity was that it was usually the music played when young people went abroad, many for the first time during that period. The holiday resorts were full of US and Euro disco, and on returning home the same tracks were bought and played. The same phenomenon with "clubbing" holidays continues to this day. Also, I seem to recall that there were a number of US artistes who only got their break when they came to the UK and got airplay there, which was subsequently rexported to the US. BUt I'm no expert so I'm not qualified to add stuff myself. But at present article is a bit US-centric. Graham 05:05, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with that. I'm from Amsterdam, The Netherlands, myself. I've been in France and other European countries back in the disco era, and what we call "disco" is encompassing much more than what is being made of it here. For instance, loads of really good disco music was made in Italy, Germany, France and even here in The Netherlands, because there was a lot of money in mafia to buy the early synthesizers. Moroder, for one, was an Italian living in Munich when the Donna Summer hits were created I believe. Disco to us here therefore also includes music by Gino Soccio, Cowley, Moroder himself (not only his Donna Summer work) plus many Italian producers. When I see this page, it's as if Europe didn't influence the genre, while it is the other way around in many ways. It wasn't Chicago or London where house-music started, even, the first fast-paced housey acidy music came from Italy, Germany and The Netherlands if you ask me. Take for example 'Remember' by Vivien Vee from 1977, and 'Crazy Family' by Jock Hattle, the long version from 1982. They both have long-lasting breaks in them, perfect examples of disco that would now be called "house" or maybe even "trance" for parts of them. JuliusThyssen 23:44, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Confusion about "Disco Dog"

I cannot find it on any website, the show doesn't exist, neither does the cartoon or even the character exist in the 1970s TV shows. I know he must be there on the internet, but not much turns up of him or his show.

22 Sep 2004 (CST)

I know Charlie is a Warner Brothers cartoon dog character. but I did not say he was not involved in it. Many radio stations which are playing many songs from the 1970s have the word, Charlie in there, proves that he was there, can you ask most program directors about this? Someone needs help, but if it fails, I WILL TAKE REVENGE AGAINST HIM AND OTHERS.

User 7:58 (Cst)

Hm...oookay... I don't follow your reasoning. Are you saying because many songs from the 70s happen to have the name "Charlie" in it that they all must refer to this cartoon character of the 40s? Charlie is just a name, it doesn't necessarily refer to the same character. I also don't follow what you mean about revenge...can you elaborate? Also, what is your name and where are you located?

Looks like these three big TV networks are denying they carried the show in the 1970's, or do not remember airing the show. The Wikipedia article on ABC, CBS and NBC didn't all have the title, listed. and I also looked through a list of other TV networks, nothing turned up in their schedule. But, I will still find the title.

User (12:41)

Infobox

Could you please add a bit more info to the infobox? I am not much into disco. I simply added one because other genres have it. Andros 1337 22:34, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The colors in the info box hurt me. --ZekeMacNeil 23:36, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

I second that emotion. Wahkeenah 23:44, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Possible opinionated article portion(s)...

Quote:

"At the time, Gay Americans were just beginning to celebrate their identity instead of having to hide in shame, and nightclubs frequented by largely Gay crowds could, at last, operate in the open."

Note capitalization of "Gay," "celebrate their identity," "hiding in shame," "nightclubs frequented by largely gay crowds could, at last, operate in the open."

The way these statements in the article are written shows opinionated writing directed at those who don't support homosexual lifestyles and some who may have (or do) oppressed gays for whatever reasons they may have (had). Despite any opinions I or others might have for or against homosexual lifestyles and habits, the article, as with the rest of Wikimedia, remain completely unopinionated.

First, Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks.

Second, you should read the policy regarding opinions: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Hyacinth 01:06, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I recommend checking out some of the comments in a recent Salon letters about an article on disco [1]. This seemed to be quite insightful about the backlash. -- LGagnon 20:49, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

Eagle Disco Hit?

I really like the listing of the non-disco artists and delved into Disco, but I'd like to know what Eagles song is considered to be Disco to be considered in this category? I'm thinking either The Disco Strangler, but that some really doesn't have much of a beat. One Of These Nights could be considered as well, but that was a little pre-disco, although it has the beat.

French Defintion just as accurate in English?

I think this article uses the definition of disco to refer to a style of music too much. Gays are also mentioned too early in the article, as disco music is enjoyed by many. I agree with the above comment entitled "Europe". Maybe this is a US-based definiton, but certainly in the UK a disco / discotheque is a place that you go to dance to music, as well as disco being a style of music (if not more so the former, however terms such as "clubbing" are also popular at present).

First, please wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks.

Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias does require us to avoid a US-centric view, and I agree that this article, like virtually all articles, has US POV issues.

However, I think the article currently takes a historical look at disco. I know of no contemporary music notably described as disco or considered in the disco genre. Do you have a source to indicate such a music?

Most music genre articles indicate demographic origins in the introduction, I see no reason why disco should be different. The blues and soul are both enjoyed by many people, including Europeans and European-Americans, but they originated in African-American communities as stated in the introduction to those articles. Hyacinth 03:23, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Radio stations

I have started a section in this article about radio play of disco music. It also is for anyone who is listing radio shows or stations that play a good amount of this music.

Also, we need some information about disco on the radio in its heyday and nowadays in all countries, especially US, UK, Europe, Australia, New Zealand. --SimonMackay 09:24, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"I Love the 70s" didn't mention it

It was on "VH1", they did not mention the "bogus" cartoon series in 1974, no one have heard of it. Oh well, check the facts.

Disco in Australia and New Zealand

We will need to add some reference to disco in Australia and New Zealand. We will need to know the reaction to disco in this country such as radio and TV shows that had it as a theme, the "gay disco" mindset through the area where it is associated with the Australian gay scene, the mid-90s "disco revival" with "Priscilla, Queen Of The Desert", as well as local disco talent. It is also worth knowing how Australian radio reacted to disco - whether it was caught up in the "rock vs disco" war or not.

As far as disco on TV is concerned, it may be worth getting further info about a disco-dancing competition that was hosted on [[ABC-TV]'s "Countdown" during 1978.

--SimonMackay 09:47, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dancepunk

Is anyone here hip enough to write about the obvious disco = dancepunk sentiment?

Try Dancepunk. Secretlondon 10:01, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

"Natural progression" to house

I have removed the sentence about how house music is a "natural progression" of disco, because it is neither sourced nor attributed. Unless you can provide a source for this information, or unless you can provide a quote to that effect, please do not restore that sentence. - jredmond 18:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Abba image

I removed it. It is not appropriate here. While Abba had a few disco hits, they were hardly definitively disco artistes, and the inclusion of the image here seems to be simply because someone wanted to add something and this was the best they could come up with. Please stay focused on what the article is about, and don't add cruft for the sake of it. Graham 00:45, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

The Radio section seems to be US specific - eg Kiss 100 in the UK. Also generally disco doesn't equal dance music. Disco is a type of dance music. Secretlondon 10:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

ABBA

I dispute the fact that ABBA were even disco at all. Disco was a serious form of music. ABBA were not. They were not proper Disco at all. The lack of inclusion of Larry Levan is also quite appaling here. It seems that the people who have writen this article know very little about proper disco at all.

Ones Discotheque

Ones discotheque located at 111 Hudson Street, NY, NY was around from the early-'70s to 1982. It had a great run. The owners also owned the Celebrity Club in Harlem on 125th Street for a period of time. The club was very well-known for the celebrities who patronized the place in the early-'70s. One was only opened on Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Tuesday was famous for Reggae night where Bob Marley and other popular groups played.

Every Saturday afternoon, Ones hosted "Disco Tot," the first-ever disco for children and their parents. Parents brought their children to dance and eat hot dogs, sit at the bar, and dance under the neon lights!

As far as popularity goes, Ones was voted by Vogue magazine as one of the top 10 discos in the world. Ones frequently swapped customers in the downtown club scene between Area, the Garage, the Loft, and Bonds a bit further uptown.

Some interesting little-known facts about Ones-

Ones manufactured all its own neon lights in the basement of the club. Ones owned Celebrity Club on 125th street for a period of time. Ones had one of longest freestanding wooden bars in the city at over 90ft. Ones owned Annie Oakleys resturant on the East Side. Ones won many legal battles over the tenants of the building, who tried to get the club closed. Ones was there before lofts became trendy. Ones had a disco taxi; do you remember it red with sliver glittered letters?

In its later years, many famous acts played at Ones: Madonna, Fat Boys, Sugar Hill Gang, Stephanie Mills, Tito Puente, and Bob Marley all appeared at Ones. Hector Camacho used to frequent the club in its later years, too.

The club had a good long run throught the height of the disco era. Last time I checked, the location where Ones was is now a food market.--Markz29 02:41, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguation, please

There is also an album by the Pet Shop Boys, called Disco: Disco (album)

New Perspective on the evolution past disco

Just remembering the changes of music through the 80's, and discussing it with people I know (and also listening to cable's "Music Choice Showcase" channel "Classic Disco" program lately), I felt the article would be improved with a more detailed account of the progression of how synthesizers changed the genre. Also, noticeable, but seemingly not recognized is the distinction between the more "mainstream" 'white' disco style, and the more "street" 'black' disco style. As I've pointed out, the more mainstream style was rooted in more standard musical production techniques, while the more black style was more rooted in black music. These both for the most part evolved in different directions as the music changed, and this helps understand just what happened to "disco" in the 80's. (Especially, since I see there was a dispute regarding how "house" music" came out of disco).

I hope adding "black" and "white" "race" language poses no problem. But for lack of better terminology, those were the unofficial "strains" of disco music. In fact, I read on one account of the "death of disco" that there was even a black negative sentiment against certain aspects of disco (such as the effeminacy, as well as the more "European" style musical principles of mainstream disco), at the same time as rock's anti-disco sentiment!

But clearly, the progression was gradual but definite, as synthesizers were added to the music. It was like the old illustration of the frog in the pot of water set to boil. You didn't notice or think much of it at first, but then eventually, you look up, and realize that this is no longer "disco' you are dancing to anymore.

I also think the anti-disco movement is (rather triumphalistically) taking a bit too much credit for their "Disco Demolition Night" and "Disco Sucks" statements ending disco. It may have helped end the mainstream elements, such as the style of clothing and other effeminate aspects of it. But then that too largely burned itself out with the drugs and spread of AIDS, as we saw in documentaries like "The Last Days of Disco". And there WAS a large racist sentiment to it as well. In my high school experience, the same kids wishing death to disco were the same ones telling blacks "Go To Atanta!" in 1981 when black kids were disappearing there. I remember one walked around once singing under his breath "unga bunga unga bunga, N----- music!" I see that it being claimed that it was the Punk movememnt that waged the war on disco, but the kids I witnessed saw even "punk" or "new wave" as too close to black music! (after all, you had Queen's "Another One Bites the Dust", and even Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall" and Devo had sounds I found listenable, meaning they were more rhythmic like black music, rather than just blaring metal). These kids were more into the "hard" rock like KISS (before that "disco" song they did), Led Zeppelin, Van Halen, earlier Pink Floyd, etc. But clearly, it was the change of music production techniques that changed the style.Eric B 19:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Limited geographic scope

I removed the Template:limitedgeographicscope as there is no discussion of how on this talk page. Hyacinth 13:57, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

How is the article limited in geographic scope? Hyacinth 08:39, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Dr. philharmonic's edit

That was a great restructuring of the material I added. I was basically trying to bring out some little known details about the differences in the styles and the gradual change in the early 80's. I apologize if it came across as "nonfactual information and personal, biased definitions", but it was kind of hard to articulate exactly what I was trying to say. I even edited several times to try to clarify and improve it. Your breaking it down into "regional" styles basically covers my points (which I genralized as a "black" and "white" or "street" and "mainstream" style, for lack of etter terminology, again). It is obvious that the "disco" of Chic is different from the "disco" of the Bee Gees, and that was what I was trying to convey. I had intended for people to take the points I had made and improve upon them. I do wonder what exactly you considered to be "illogicalities and contradictions", though.

I did put back a few of my original points. For instance, you focus almost entirely on orchestration as making the difference between the 70's and early 80's, and while that was a big part of it, it ignores the slight chordal changes which changed the sound even more. Some 70's songs did not have orchestration, but still sound like disco, while some 80's songs did have orchestration, but still sounded different, so it is more than just that. So it seems to me a triple effect: less orchestration, synthesized bass and other sounds, and more jazzy or bluesy chords. Even though this may not be something widely acknowledged, I think if one listens to the songs from that period, they would see it is not just a "biased nonfactual definition". It's about the sound.

Some highlights of what I added, with explanations:

Much of this was influenced by some of the great R & B and jazz musicians of the 70's, such as Stevie Wonder and Herbie Hancock. This further changed the overall sound

The fact that these artists (and others like them, who were not "disco") greatly influenced the 80's is wellknown.

but by this time, the word "disco" became associated with anything danceable, that played in discothèques, so the music continued for a time to be called "disco" by many.

I was addressing the fact that people then and today, consider the 80's tracks in question "disco" (you can look at any online "disco record" list, including the one you linked to), even though, as I had said earlier, these songs "were about as different from the disco of the 70's as the "pre-disco" songs mentioned above were".

Also, the connection between Planet Rock and the later House/techno is also a well accepted point. So that should be left in as well. If it can be worded better, then improve it, or even mention that it is disputable if you think so, but it should be mentioned.

Eric B 03:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

While stuff is being deleted as "nonpertinent and nonacademic", more and more material is being added about orchestration. (it occupies a sizeable chunk of the page now, and the page is starting to get too big). See also bold point in above post, regarding the inconsistency of making the difference orchestration only. I'll have to find some examples when I get a chance.Eric B 03:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Contradict

I removed Template:contradict as there is no discussion on this talk page. How does the section Disco#Popular disco artists contradict itself or another section? Hyacinth 08:39, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Disco Orchestration

As a doctor, medical researcher, and educator in the fields of neuroscience, specializing in the brain, nutrition, endocrinology, linguistics, and mathematics, I approach the analysis of music in the same manner as I do in all of the aforementioned disciplines.

The reason why such a great emphasis is placed on the orchestration of disco is because disco is predicated on orchestration, that is, not just orchestration of the elements of the symphony orchestra, but orchestration of all the elements of the production, which is why the engineers played such a paramount role in the production process, whose ear for music composition and continuity imbued each production with its artistic integrity. So, as most precepts do have exceptions, as in there existing just some disco productions lacking in orchestration, the preeminent, predominant wealth of disco material, just by virtue of its birth and development, is symphony-orchestrated. One should check the archived playlists of the former online radio show Disco Magic with Dr. Rob to see the thousands of titles that substantiate the assertion. One may also check the list of engineers in order to see the names of the multitude of engineers.

We can see that, as the swing era of the 1930s was spawned by the jazz era of the 1920s, with swing an uptempo, danceable, orchestrated form of jazz, the disco era of the 1970s grew from the world beat of the 1960s. And, as such, as swing is a form of dance music, so, too, disco is a form of dance music; but, as dance music of the big-band era of the 1940s is not swing, so, too, dance music of the 1980s is not disco, whatever one considers. So, as one can find a swing song that is not orchestrated in the typical swing manner, one can find a disco song that is not orchestrated in the typical disco manner, but orchestrated nonetheless. Therefore, a musical production sung by two black women over a danceable beat does not a disco song make, as in The Weather Girls' It's Raining Men, whatever one considers it to be, or be like. As with the example of Patrice Rushen on the Disco page, one should analyze the work of a couple of years earlier by Martha Wash and Izora Rhodes (in the '80s, The Weather Girls) as background to Sylvester's Can't Stop Dancing (1979), arranged, produced, and conducted by Harvey Fuqua and Sylvester, with specific sectional stylings of Nathin Rubin, concertmaster of the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra, wherein, their vocals build, break, and interweave through the song, sometimes as lead, sometimes as background, in harmonious interplay with all the other elements of the song as if a section of the orchestra itself. In contrast, however, like Patrice Rushen's Forget-Me-Nots, It's Raining Men is a diluted marasmus of a melody that with neither orchestration nor intricate composition is closer to gospel and R&B than anything else. Further, there is a vast difference between disco, the music genre, which, like swing, is highly specific, and disco, the category in music catalogs and record stores, which use disco as a generic term for dance-club music, of which writers on the subject of disco SHOULD be knowledgeable, as with ALL the information on which I am writing.

The disheartening element in many discussions of disco is the filtering of the whole disco movement and its artistic and intellectual energy down to various groups such as The Bee Gees and ABBA, which were never disco groups but R&B and pop, respectively. It is the case that the Gibb Brothers themselves were surprised at the success of numerous productions of theirs on the disco charts, for their songs - Night Fever, Stayin' Alive, You Should Be Dancing - are R&B. Although many of their productions were arranged, produced, and orchestrated by Maurice Gibb and Barry Gibb, together with Albhy Galuten and Karl Richardson, with the specific stylings of concertmaster Sid Sharp of the Los Angeles Symphony Orchestra, they were not necessarily disco just by virtue of their being a product of the 1970s, and danceable. The same situation occurred with Alicia Bridges when I Love the Nightlife hit the disco charts, who was also "surprised." Further, a wanton slap in the face is the effect of discussing such groups and individuals in the presence of the wealth of artists, arrangers, producers, orchestra conductors, concertmasters, orchestra players some of whose names are here and here and here and here and here and here, right in the very pages of Wikipedia for public display, in whose talented hands were held the pens responsible for the melodic masterpieces of borne of history's most artistic and intellectual timeperiod. It is advisable for people that want to acquire in-depth knowledge on the subject to visit the archived location of the former radio show and website Disco Magic with Dr. Rob, where philosophical insight on: disco's history in The History Pages disco's fashion in The Glamour and Splendor Pages disco's thousands of song-titles through the playlists at: The Playlist Pages.

Further, many artists and producers of other genres saw their opportunity to cash in on the success of disco. Yet, it just must be accepted that many people do not possess the intellectual acuity to undertake such monumental tasks as composing the massive orchestrations for the distinct sections of the symphony orchestra and tailoring musical theory around exciting listeners and dancers with multiple bridges and refrains woven together within a fantastic philharmonic fabric. As a result, there were many endeavors that were disco-influenced, as in The Rolling Stones, The Grateful Dead, etc., but not disco, whatever one considers them to be. As a result, many forms emerged: disco-influenced rock, disco-influenced-R&B, disco-influenced soul, disco-influenced country. It can be demonstrated through innumerable examples throughout history that what one CONSIDERS to be the case is not necessarily the same as what IS the case. For example, it was discovered several years ago that each taste bud on the human tongue possesses many sensory areas with the capability of detecting - at this point, still - an uncountable number of different taste sensations. However, in many schools throughout the U.S., the former interpretation on the study of the tongue is still being taught - that the human tongue contains four distinct regions for detecting "the four different taste sensations - sweet, salty, sour, bitter," with educators still using textbooks containing such material, all because some consider - ERRONEOUSLY - the human tongue to have only four - and isolated - areas for distinguishing taste sensations. And, not very long ago, for thousands of years, sickness and disease were considered to be a result of the wrath of the gods, to whom a cure was beseeched through scores of citizens who gave up their still-beating hearts on the sacrificial altar, until micro-organisms like bacteria, viruses, and protozoa were discovered. And how many people were beheaded as heretics for opposing the people that considered the earth to be flat, and that the universe revolves around Earth.

And, as it is not just a beat, it is not just orchestration that presupposes a disco song; and therein lies the beauty of the 1970s, for every genre of music was blessed with the newfound talent of educated musicians who contracted their local symphony and philharmonic orchestras: One only need confer the tens of thousands of music releases in the genres of rock, country, and soul groups of the 1970s to aver the claim. The magnanimous phenomenon of the 1970s is that this educated perspective occurred on all fronts, and within all the arts. Remember that, during the several years before the 1970s, American adults were entertained by witches, genies, a martian, a flying nun, and a man whose mother was a car. Something monumental occurred at the threshold between the 1960s and the 1970s, as if endowing humanity with a knowledge not even imagined beforehand. A subject for great philosophical discussion is one centered on the theories concerning the events that jolted the American intellect from being entertained by Hogan's Heros in the 1960s to even understanding - never mind embracing - M*A*S*H of the 1970s, and, in like manner, from Get Smart in the 1960s to Columbo in the 1970s, from Petticoat Junction in the 1960s to The Mary Tyler Moore Show in the 1970s, from Green Acres in the 1960s to Maude in the 1970s; and the list goes on and on. And, by parallel, the same intellectual realism and artistic blossoming occurred in film, which, in the 1960s, was a hideous embarrassment of clown makeup and clothing and hairstyles, with cartoon colors and intellect-bereft scripts, which gave way to an intellectual realism and artistic blossoming during the 1970s, as in The Godfather, Kramer vs. Kramer, Rocky, Star Wars, The Black Stallion, which could not even have been conceived through the stultified mood of the 1950s and 1960s.

So it has become imperative for me to illustrate for people the whys and hows along with the details of the great intellectual and cultural movement that occurred during the 1970s. With disco at the forefront, the 1970s not only brought the world's symphony and philharmonic orchestras back into the mainstream of popular culture for the first time in three decades but also enabled for the first time in the entire fashion industry clothing designers around the world - Fiorucci, Ives St. Laurent, Gucci, to name a few - showcase their talents in palatially-designed dancehalls, where the world's youth - imagine, aspiring to be adults - also for the first time in three decades actually dressed up in tuxedos and silk gowns to be inspired by highly-orchestrated designer music, which in turn inspired them, yes, to play instruments and to conduct symphony orchestras - in their twenties, no less. Imagine a time that was able to transform lowly dungarees into designer jeans: Sergio Valente, Pierre Cardin, Jordache, Sasson, Calvin Klein, etc.

Within Wikipedia, we have opportunity to educate those that want to know on the history of disco - any topic, for that matter - without emotional tainting, and with a strict adherence to the facts, with academic delivery, the very things that are not only lacking but, many times, absent in "encyclopedias." The decade of the 1970s is not yet even 30 years old; and, yet, if there exist people that can actually regard a whole decade - with its treasure-trove of tens of thousands of symphony-orchestrated musical masterpieces - as a time epitomized by The Bee Gees, ABBA, and the Village People, we have some serious educating to perform, a task that I do not take lightly, which is the reason for the great investment of time that I have devoted to the various topics of Wikipedia, down to this talk item.

Of equal importance, moreover, is the discussion centered on how tens of thousands of symphony-orchestrated melodic masterpieces were able to be wiped clean from the memory of mainstream culture, leaving The Bee Gees, ABBA, and The Village People as the fossils in the archaeological remains of a timeperiod less than 30 years old. Drphilharmonic 15:21, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

• Richly orchestrated forms of disco are, of course, crucial to any discussion on disco in a general reference article, and you make a good point that disco should not be narrowed down to a discussion of only the hits and only the most popular artists. However, it is only your POV that 1980s dance music can never be considered disco. I assume that you "Dr. Philharmonic" are Dr. Rob himself, given your repeated references to his old archives (which aren't even searchable in Google), your similar emphasis on symphonies ("The Grand Symphony-Orchestra Sound of the D I S C O Era 1974 - 1979"), your similar references to specific television shows like Green Acres, etc., your repeated use of bold and italics, and your POV which is compatible with Dr. Rob's claim that disco ended precisely on "December 31, 1979". You cannot enforce your narrow POV in this article. I address the diversity in disco sounds which began even the mid-1970s at my categorization essay A Diversity of Sounds in Disco Music. It should also be noted that there are plenty of examples of orchestrated disco (violin and viola players, etc.) from the early 1980s and even from later decades. However, I agree that very electronic songs like "It's Raining Men" by the Weather Girls are not true disco. - KAB, 25 February 2006

• I also agree that disco should not be narrowed down to only the hits. But the Bee Gees not disco, but only R&B? Night Fever not disco? I'm sorry, but that is stretching it way too far, and I too think this is somewhat your own POV. (I would agree that a song like "I Will Be Your Everything" is R&B, even though it is frequently played on the Music Choice Showcase "Disco" program!)

To say that disco brought back orchestration? I don't know, because I see plenty of it in the 1960's, with the later Motown sound. Earlier records I notice (Shop Around, etc) didn't have it, I notice, but I think that may have been more about money. As they (and other black music production) gained more money, they were able to add orchestration. By the beginning of the 70's almost all R&B was orchestrated, as well as adult contemporary, easy listening, or whatever they were called then. I guess it was rock that had largely ditched orchestration, so it seemed to disappear, and then reappear in the 70's pop culture with disco. But surely while orchestration is is an integral part of the original disco sound, disco is primarily about rhythm. (You would think we were talking about classical, here!) Bee Gees hits like "Stayin' Alive" and "Night Fever" has the perennial classic disco rhythm (with the cymbals on every other inbetween eighth note), as well as your orchestra, and while this may have been a typical overcommercialized pop hit, and there may be many other more musically rich disco songs, this cannot be dismissed as genuine disco. (My point of the difference between "mainstream" and "black" disco was precisely to move the focus beyond just "the Gee Gees, ABBA and the Village People", as you complained).

As for the 80's, I also do not consider much of the dance songs (D Train, Kashif, Shalamar and even the Whispers hits) to be disco. My whole point in the paragraph you keep deleting is that it is considered disco by its fans, and many sources (Music Choice, online record for sale lists, etc), --whether it really is or not; though harmonically, it's structure is different, and is really an evolution from disco. This would include songs like Patrice Rushen's "Haven't You Heard", which you consider "disco" purely because of the orchestra. Others consider it disco because of the rhythm, and it played in discos. But it is so jazzy, it is light years away from classic disco. It is basically the same style of music as "Forget Me Nots", which you do not consider disco because of the lack of orchestration. The latter is simply a slightly more updated production, with the acoustic piano replaced with a Fender Rhodes (electric piano), primarily. Basically, the "one man band" keyboard-oriented sound. As it was people like Stevie Wonder and Herbie Hancock who had earlier pioneered this technique, (as well as the greater harmonic structure the keyboards produced) that sound would become more popular, as these artists were copied from, (and yes, this was now R&B, and it was conveniently cost-saving); and that was a very important point I was adding regarding the '81-83 period. You even touched upon this by stating:

not just orchestration of the elements of the symphony orchestra, but orchestration of all the elements of the production, which is why the engineers played such a paramount role in the production process, whose ear for music composition and continuity imbued each production with its artistic integrity.

That was my point. even the "one man band' sound of the 80's was engineered (maybe not as well, but nevertheless), and this change of engineering style as an evolution of dance music deserved mention.

So I would agree that most of that is not pure disco. Some of it, like Cheryl Lynn's "Shake it Up Tonight" seems like a hybrid song. Its bass line and orchestration make it sound more like genuine disco, but there are other factors, especially the chordal structure, that makr it different. Realizing that some of this may be my own POV, I tried to give the benefit of the doubt, and say it was "semi-disco". "Last Night A DJ Saved My Life" is basically an extension of what I had called the "black disco sound", in the vein of Chic and Sister Sledge. "It's Raining Men" seems to have the more acoustic feel of "mainstream" disco (doesn't it have a little orchestra in there too?), but but the rhythm was by that time associated with "the 80's sound". (And yes, it is gospel influenced as well, and that would be the vocals.) I would say the last songs that could be called "disco" in any shape or form are Jocelyn Brown's "Somebody Else's Guy", and Evelyn Thomas' "High Energy". (Yes, that one is purely electronic, but the bassline, as synth. as it is, is still the classic sound).

One thing you all should realize is that the line between these styles is fuzzy. The standard 4/4 backbeat is called "the rock beat", and would encompass ALL of these modern styles, including disco! But we don't consider it all rock. (Old religious conservative types who say rock is from the devil, do, though). This is not an exact science, like medicine; it is an invisble classification that is more relative.

As for the tangent about TV shows and stuff from the 60's vs. the 70's, all of that was shaped by the cultural turmoil of the period, basically the "end of the so-called "age of innocence" of America; with the war, and rebellion against that and the old time cultural mores, and the sexual revolution, civil rights struggle, etc. So we went from "utopian "Father Knows Best" stuff to more serious themes, both on the screen as well as in music. Part of that may have been the ditching of orchestras by rock and funk artists. Eric B 15:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

True Definition

It is truly time that an unbiased, academic recounting of the historical facts be promulgated, as those by Drphilharmonic. As an orchestra conductor and music composer during the 1970s, I can attest to the unprecedented energy of the 1970s; I was present to witness the scores of orchestra members that literally ran from recording studio to recording studio in order to produce commercial jingles, television theme songs, movie scores, and the massive disco productions, which required sometimes over 50 different sessions for recording the distinct elements of just one song, all coming to a silencing crash in 1980. During the 1960s, we were contracted on occasion for specific aspects of a television commercial, movie score, or record production, but the explosion occurred on the turning of the decade that demanded more sophisticated tastes in all the arts, the 1970s. If one does not know of the immense numbers of titles of the playlists and the names of those associated with the production of the titles, as suggested by Drphilharmonic, then one should not be writing on the topic. It is, however, just like those that know nothing of a topic to be those that are most vocal on the topic; one need only to open a newspaper, review books in a library, and navigate around the world-wide web for proof. And it is just like those that know nothing of a topic to distract attention from their ignorance by claiming another's true recounting of history to be the point-of-view of a sole individual. Thank you, Drphilharmonic, for being the voice of those of us that have lived through the time, during which we committed our lives, our very hearts and souls, to our craft, not even to be acknowledged. Those that are too ignorant even to know of their ignorance and the kindergarten-style writing with which they present their ideas should NOT be contributing to an online encyclopedia, of all things. There are many places on the Internet for children to scribble their nonsensical drivel; leave Wikipedia for the grown-ups, intelligent grown-ups, that is. Maestro-conductor 15:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

No newspaper, book review or web article I've ever seen placed that much emphasis on orchestration as the sole defining element of disco, if that is what you are arguing against us. We have not disputed anything regarding all of this other tangent stuff you are discussing. Who said that we "do not know of the immense numbers of titles of the playlists and the names of those associated with the production of the titles"? That is really not the issue. We are not debating how many titles or producers there were in the 70's or whenever. It was nice for Drphilharmonic to add that, though I think he overdid it a little in terms of the size of the article. (That is better on other pages). But if you are arguing his idea that only richly orchestrated songs or whatever classify as "disco", that the Bee Gees' well known hits are not disco (Proof: they did not expect them on the disco charts); etc. or the claim of the page that disco ended 12-31-79, then you all are not in a good place to be talking about "children scribbling their nonsensical drivel"/"kindergarten-style writing", or who should not be writing to an encyclopedia. Those claims are outrageous, and no amount of using big words, boasting of academic credentials or putting down others' words can make it the truth. Any vandal can come here and ramble off and claim it is a "true recounting of history", but what I'm seeing here is a rewriting of history in some sort of attempt to promote orchestras. Once again, this is not classical!Eric B 23:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

A Recording Engineer's Touch

Having been in the recording industry in the mid-'70s to the early-'80s, I have always wanted to contribute to articles in Wikipedia on the subjects of engineering and music recording, but never did for "fear" of being labeled biased. So I greatly admire individuals like Drphilharmonic, who devote so much of their time without monetary reward to trying to educate people on the actual events, writing in place of us that were in the field, and who made a good living, for a while. As a recording engineer in the West U.S., for studios like Studio Sound, The Producer's Workshop, Kendun, just to name a few, I would work on 40 to 50 reels of tracks containing woodwinds sections, strings sections, horns sections, several rhythms and vocals. At the end of a 14-hour day, I would complete just the bridge of a song; then on the next day I would work on a similar number of tracks for the various sections of the orchestra and vocals for the verses, and so on until completing the final edits of this one song at the end of the week. The whole process came to mind when I saw Evelyn Thomas' "My Head's in the Stars" in the "Disco" page, as an example of the great amount of work that went into one song in the 1970s. "My Head's in the Star's" was a typical example of the "hybrids" that we as a group of engineers worked on: 100+ tracks coming from London, direct from the London Symphony Orchestra, 100+ tracks coming from Chicago, direct fro the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, all assembled into a unified composition in Los Angeles to the final product. But this does not even speak of the process before the tracks arrived at our studios for assembling and mixing. The job of the recording engineers required painstaking methods of sometimes setting up whole recording studios at the site of the symphony, or bringing in separate sections of the symphony, say not even the whole string section, but just the double-basses, to our "acoustic halls" for many sessions to record the introduction, verses, various bridges, various builds, the different refrains, etc., then the same for the violas, the violins, the trombones, the french horns, and so on. So, just by my description, one can get an idea as to the complicated process, and, yes, even more complicated than "classical" music. More than it was draining, however, it was stimulating, because we as recording and mixing engineers got to exercise our music training, too, and worked tightly with the arrangers and producers, who sometimes gave us the chance to experiment with our own ideas on how we would like to hear, for example, one of the builds with the flugelhorns and piccolos emphasized, or a wild build of violins with a crescendo of bassoons. And, as was stated by Drphilharmonic, the complicated recording methods went across the board to all forms of music. That was just the way it was in the 1970s. "Artists" were artists, and wanted to be artists. I recorded for many jazz acts, Nancy Wilson, Marlena Shaw, Ramsey Lewis, Wayne Henderson, and an endless list of pop groups.

Then, when the music industry changed and "disco departments" and "black music departments" in the major record labels like Columbia, Atlantic, MCA, and even whole record labels, dissolved in 1980, many of us lost our livelihoods. Some studios closed altogether, but some that managed to keep going went from a staff of 30 or 40 to 5 or 6. We did some big recordings into 1981 and 1982 for people like Barry White and a few others that hung on to their musical integrity, but the process was watered-down, simplfied. The energy died.

I am thoroughly pleased that someone like Drphilharmonic who has the talent of painting words into vivid pictures for all of us is a contributor to the Disco page. When there was almost no hope of recognition of all the work done by all of us behind the scenes, I tried a search for my name in some search engines (jayde.com, for one) and there it was!...and the name of dozens of people I had almost forgotten, right in the pages of those suggested above. The truth is out there, many times hidden, for those that want to know, thank goodness. Ben-gineer 16:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Philosophy of a Political Scientist

I am a professor in the field of political science at a prestigious university. Subjects of compendious lecture are the very ones that Drphilharmonic mentions: In order to draw logical conclusions on any topic, in this case disco, it is necessary to examine the details from as many angles as possible, social, philosophical, as well as artistic.

My political science colleagues and I discuss various general topics that substantiate and lay foundation for specific movements, like "disco" - that of "What actually happened from the 1960s to the 1970s to reward our culture with the richness of the 1970s not only in all the arts but in the philosophical mores, then to be destroyed, as if in retaliatory malice, in the 1980s? The approach that we political scientists take is similar to that of an archaeologist: In order to examine what has happened, it is necessary to understand why. So, yes, we debate, for example: while American adults were entertained on television by a flying nun they were entertained on the radio by 4-piece garage bands. And, a decade later, while a society was entertained by "All in the Family," it was entertained by symphony-orchestrated music. It is no accident that the greatest amount of federal funding for social programs, education, and the environment in U.S. history occurred in the 1970s. And we must also keep in mind the legacy of racism and sexism of the U.S. before the 1970s, and how the discotheque itself brought people of all races and ages together, with both genders back dancing in ballroom-style glamour. So, is it an inconceivable proposition to suggest a correlation between "harmony of music" and "harmony of a society," "orchestration of music" and "orchestration of a society as a whole" represented by the 1970s?

The two ludicrous responses to Drphilharmonic's explanations above brought to mind a frequent discussion between my colleagues in psychology and me - Why would one devote so much of his/her time to a topic and not want to be thoroughly knowledgeable on the topic in order to be, or at come across as being, intelligent? When it was suggested to visit various web pages to examine the titles of the songs and the names of all the individuals involved, the two respondents became defensive. Even I, someone who prides herself in thinking herself scholarly on the subject of music of the 1970s, was completely astounded by the resources. My colleagues and I also discuss how frightening it is, especially noted in reading the various topics on this page, that there is a definitive delineation of the "intellectual classes": There is a remarkable difference in the knowledge base, ability to understand, and delivery between those that know and those that do not know. I myself would not even begin to tackle writing on the topic of "disco"; in examining the all the names on the above-mentioned archived pages, I have A LOT to learn. And, even with my educated writing style, with which I could fool the masses, I would nonetheless feel inadequate and, worse, untrue to the topic, a topic to which I am so endeared; so I would like to leave it in capable hands. ...But, no, not some people; perhaps Drphilharmonic will someday explain which brain regions are underdeveloped in these individuals, and, in the case of those with the temerity to malign disco, which brain regions are missing. Pol-Sci-Prof 19:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I do not see how you and the others can dare to write these boistrous words about people's knowledge and brain regions with all the off-topic rambling about TV shows and all that stuff. Meanwhile, none of you even disprove anything we have said. You just go into all of this stuff (that we did not discuss nor dispute), then throw ad-hominem remarks, and even make up things. Neither of us got "defensive" about visiting web pages. I did not even respond to that. You do not know what we have read aor studied. There are many different views out here that can be studied, and frankly, yours/drphil's are way out there. I went to several of the discomagic pages, and so did KAB, and he noted that this DrRob appears to be by the same person here calling himself Dr.philharmonic. If that is not the case, then one of you prove it. And if it is his page, then you and Maestro once again should not be here talking about anyone's knowledge, because a person's own page does not count as a legitimate "source" as proof. Even if it's not his page, it totally discredits itself by claiming that disco ended 12-31-79, and stuff like that. None of you addressed that either, but begin accuse people of not being knowledegable. It is becoming clear now that some of you are here to pitch DrPhilharmonic and his lists of orchestra producer names, and this completely off-topic, political/cultural 'conspiracy against the 70's' rhetoric. I'm sorry, but that is not objective, and an online encyclopedia is not the place for it.Eric B 23:35, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

thank you to educated contributors to wikipedia

i am a senior in high school and i love music, all types of music, but especially music with a rich sound...it seems natural that i have come to love the music of the 1970s, and especially disco...maybe because i play several instruments in my high school band i have a special ear for music, but i have always noticed the difference in music from the 1970s and other decades...my high school did not even have a band 2 years ago so i had to beg my school administrators to start one...they said ok but we would have to raise the money...so we have bake sales and car washes to pay for instruments and have recitals...we also don't have art classes, foreign languages, even school lunches...so i ask my parents and teachers often about the differences in music styles and the things that happened in the 1970s...they all in different ways explain that the time was different...there was a strong appreciation for the arts...then i discovered wikipedia...i really can't believe the amount of information i have learned in reading just this page from the wonderful contributions of drphilharmonic, maestro-conductor, ben-gineer, pol-sci-prof...more in the last few days than in years of reading books and scanning the internet...there is a reason why no one else ever had the deep answers for me...they just don't know below the surface, but now all the pieces of the puzzle have finally come together for me...all the explanations of things that occurred before disco, along with disco, and after disco helped me to understand the many levels of society...i hope that these educated contributors to wikipedia and more people that were in the business give us more information on the time...and maybe contribute related pages where more information on why things happened can be learned by those of us that want to know more and more...i just can't get enough and i have already started on ideas for my big term paper...someday when i find out how i will thank the wikipedia administration...not very long ago i was warned about the material on wikipedia...but no other source of knowledge has so inspired me than these contributors that have given their time to educate me and those of us that yearn to know why and how things happened and continue to happen...i look forward to more educated, resourceful, insightful, inspiring contributions...in the meantime...please Eric B's mom give Eric B his medication and take his computer away...even my grammar and spelling are better...he wants someone to prove that he is NOT somebody???JonathanP 02:26, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

"spelling and Grammar? How about capitalizing "I"? How about sentences and not one long ramble separated by ...? maestro-conductor, ben-gineer, and pol-sci-prof did nothing but repeat drphil's ramblings, just like you are doing. Are all of you the same troll using different names?