Talk:LZ 127 Graf Zeppelin

I'm delighted to see a page on the Graf Zeppelin. However, I think the paragraph on the Hindenburg should be greatly shortened. There is already a full discussion of the Hindenburg fire on it's own page as well as on the Zeppelin page. It seems unreasonable to repeat it for a third time on this page. If anything, the contrast between the Graf's safety record and the Hindenburg publicity should be emphasized.

Blimpguy 13:54, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• I can see the merits of your suggestion, however I would counter that the Hindenburg disaster had a massive effect on the viability of dirigibles as a whole and directly impacted the fate of the Graf Zeppelin as well as the Graf Zeppelin II. I think providing enough context with, and a portal to the article on the Hindenburg is important. I strongly agree with your suggestion about adding something about the Graf Zeppelin's safety record vs. the public outcry caused by the Hindenburg and R 101 disasters. If you have more information and sources to cull from, please put something together and add to it. I am not overly informed on the subject so I hope you or someone else can run with your suggestion and craft more content about it. Lestatdelc 18:16, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

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"He (German airships have always been referred to in the masculine)"

Is this really true? In German its referred to as she ("die Graf Zeppelin"), whereas the person ("(der) Graf Zeppelin") is referred to as he. Moon light shadow 07:28, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• I was going by this information on the original entry on zeppelins. You are correct in pointing this out though. In German, every noun (person, place or thing), whether it refers to a tree, a thought, a planet, a car or a man (all masculine nouns in German), has a gender. After a little more googling, it seems that generically speaking, airships of any kind are neuter, das Luftschiff. Der Zeppelin, of course, is masculine, but it is not clear whether this is because it also references or the words etymology is being that of a male person of the same name. Yet some Germans of the mid-thirties wrote or spoke of die Hindenburg - feminine, a carry-over from nautical terminology. So this certainly seems to call into question the veracity of the passage from the original zeppelin entry I culled that from.
  
  That said, gooling either gender nominative term for the dirigibles Hindenburg and Graf Zeppelin turns up numerous entries using the masculine name. Though over on the German Wikipedia in the entry on the Graf Zeppelin, they use the feminine nominative case. All things being said, I think on balance you are correct, and we should probably revise (i.e. remove) the passage in both this article and the original one on zeppelins I took this from.
  Lestatdelc 15:47, Apr 2, 2004 (UTC)
  
  
  • It seems that the usage has changed over time.
    
    In the early 1900's the usage was always "he". In large part this seemed due to the merging of the myths of man and machine. Historians have commented that when crowds saw an approaching zepp, they would always shout "Here he comes." -- never seeming to make much of an issue of whether they were referring to man or airship.
    
    There were also a lot of jokes that when the Zepp built LZ126 was recristened "Los Angeles" in the United States, it went through a sex change from "he" to "she". Over time, and with the zepps receding into history, the "she" (which I think is the article used) from water craft seems to have crept into use on airships.
    
    So today there is mixed use, with the common use being "she" and the more historical/technical folks often making a point of saying "he". We've had this same discussion on the zeppelin talk pages. I don't know what the right answer is. It is a source of continuing confusion. Perhaps there should be a separate article on the subject
    
    Blimpguy 15:58, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
    
    
    • Good reply, I think perhaps a brief sentence explaining this very point in both articles might be the best course instead of deletion. The point about jokes being made about it undergoing a "sex change" when it was "Americanized" and re-christened "Los Angeles" in the States certainly sheds some light on the issue of the gender nominative and I think adds some interesting detail. Lestatdelc 16:09, Apr 2, 2004 (UTC)
      
      
    • Today, when referring to a zeppelin by name, using anything but feminine form would seem strange in German. Currently, I cannot dismiss your idea that this might have been different in the days of Graf Zeppelin and Hindenburg, but as a German I have never come across such a form, not even while researching for my contributions here and in the German Wikipedia, and so I suspect that the "confusion" among English speakers may at least in part be based on a misunderstanding concerning the importance of gender in German grammar.
      
      The grammatical gender of the German word "Zeppelin" is masculinum. You may attribute this to the count in some way, however this fact should not be overrated, as grammatical and biological gender are much less in one-to-one correspondence in German than in English. Many words for objects and abstract entities are masculinum or femininum, while, more pathologically, "das Mädchen" (the girl) is neutrum. So, while in English adressing objects as "he" or "she" is rather uncommon and more or less automatically implies some sort of personification, referring to things as "er" (he) or "sie" (she) is completely normal in German. For example, my computer is masculinum, and so are my monitor and my table. My keyboard is femininum, and so are my mouse and my hard disk.
      
      That said, when talking about a zeppelin, a speaker or writer may refer to the airship as "er", which expands to "der Zeppelin" without per se implying any personification. Thus, "er" would here accurately be translated as "it", for "zeppelin" (as an object) is a neutre in English. In fact, a zeppelin without a name, such as any German military zeppelin (which includes the vast majority of zeppelins ever built), would certainly not be referred to in femininum, not even today, but in masculinum (like "Zeppelin") or neutrum (like "Luftschiff"). Usage of the "she" form is tightly connected with names.
      
      Certainly, the crew would have called LZ126 "er". Like many nautical crews, they may have personified their ship to a certain extent and, based on the grammatical gender, made it a "he", which explains the jokes. However, I doubt this would have been the same if the ship had had a name already.
      
      Moreover, I believe that the cheering crowds calling out "Da kommt er!" (There "he" comes!) really had no personification in mind and used "er" simply as a substitute for "der Zeppelin". Expanding "er" to "der Graf Zeppelin" or "der Hindenburg" sounds so plain wrong to me that it would require a contemporary German source to convince me that these forms were ever preferred to the feminine "die Graf Zeppelin" and "die Hindenburg". --J.Rohrer 18:45, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
      
      
      • Many thanks J.Rohrer. I'm fascinated at how such a small issue as he/she/it gets tangled by time and usage.
        
        I think that every English-language history of airships makes at least passing reference to the choice of article. While amusing, it is hardly central to this page.
        
        I am left wondering what the least distracting choice is. On the one hand, using "she" will be the least likely to confuse casual English readers. However, "she" will no doubt raise the ire of (and reopen the topic by) English speaking airship history buffs. Blimpguy 16:50, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think the "Zeppelin" as object is masculin, but the airship "Graf Zeppelin" or "Hindenbug" is femenin. Ships are generally femenin in german too.
We will start a discussion in the german Wikipedia and i will examin some historic articels about the airships.
The LZ127 had the masculin nickname "The Graf" ("der Graf")
I dont know any use of the "Hindenburg" as femenin form when the name was used alone.
hadhuey from german wikipedia