Talk:Dash

According to the article, the figure dash (‒) is the same as the minus sign (−), but they are not the same.

1+2−3 not equal to 1+2‒3

Another example:

−‒−‒− ‒ − ‒ − ‒

In my font at least, they are not the same height or width, and only the minus sign corresponds to the plus sign.

Hyphen:
+-=-
-+-=

=====
-----

Minus sign:
+−=−
−+−=

=====
−−−−−

Figure Dash:
+‒=‒
‒+‒=

=====
‒‒‒‒‒

- Omegatron 21:13, Mar 16, 2004 (UTC)

The figure dash U+2012 (‒) is a dash with the exact width of a number, the minus sign U+2212 (−) is reserved for math operations. I'll try a rewrite. — Jor (Darkelf) 21:42, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm trying to figure out the reason they got mixed up, I think U+2012 was for some reason confused with U+2212. Both are used only with numbers, and of course 2012 looks like 2212. They are now properly distinguished in the article. — Jor (Darkelf) 21:53, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. I also posted on the manual of style talk page. - Omegatron

The phone number

Copied here and expanded:

634‒5789 is from the Steve Cropper/Eddie Floyd song of the same title originally recorded by Wilson Pickett in 1966, which also appeared in the Blues Brothers 2000 movie. Most phone companies world-wide refuse to give out the number, because for the past few decades since the song appeared on air it's being called many times daily. It has been covered by Jon Bon Jovi, Tina Turner, and many other artists. — Jor (Darkelf) 22:53, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

this is really strange -- I keep hitting an edit link for "Dash usage question", the last one on the page, twice now, and I get the "== The phone number ==" section, not the section I am trying to mess with. By any chance is the excess spacing between the equals causing trouble?

Em/en dashes vs. Commas

When does one use the comma, and when does one use a dash (and of what type)? In fact, where are parenthesis more appropriate?

I guess these questions are directed as regards British usage – or more particularly, Hiberno–english practice – seeing as I'm in Ireland!

Zoney 15:51, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simplified rule: if you can replace it with parentheses, you can also use an em dash (or en dash if that is your preference). A comma does not demark a break in thought — a sudden change of topic or an inserted statement — but is used for listings, or pauses in conversation, instead. Generally you should be able to drop the part enclosed with em dashes or parentheses without breaking the sentence, but you cannot do that with commas. — Jor (Talk) 17:31, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Can't say as I totally agree with that last bit about commas. A subordinate phrase set out with commas can be deleted without mangling the sentence. "Joe Blow, the famous poove, was seen in heavy traffic last week." You can take out "the famous poove" and all you are missing is a little disambiguation. But that's not what I came here to talk about. ;Bear 23:06, 2004 Apr 14 (UTC)

It's over-simplified, not meant to be fully correct. To give an example of my own: "John Doe — you might remember him from TV — was in the mall today.". Contrast to "John Doe, known from TV, was in the mall today.", and compare with "John Doe (you might remember him from TV) was in the mall today." In the dash or parenthesis case, the marked-off section is not part of the sentence but is added in, while in the comma case the marked-off section is a part (if not an essential part) of it. — Jor (Talk) 23:30, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mixing styles

In the article 16th century is this phrase "that century which lasted from 1501-1600"

As I see it, if you are going to use from then you should use to instead of a dash (of whatever variety). ;Bear 23:06, 2004 Apr 14 (UTC)

Correct. Or drop the 'from'. — Jor (Talk) 23:30, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Dash usage question

To quote Wikipedia's own Semantic progression article:

Semantic progression describes the evolution of word usage - usually to the point that the modern meaning is radically different from the original usage.

Which dash should be used in this case? Seems like an em dash is called for (or you could replace the dash with a simple comma), but no fitting example is given in the Dash article. -- Itai 22:21, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

CMS ed. 15, 6.88, "An em dash or a pair of em dashes sets off an amplifying or explanatory element." This seems to be described in the article as a parenthetical phrase. - Nunh-huh 22:29, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Which definition wins?

Under en dash it states:

The en dash (–) is one en in width: the width of the capital N in any particular font. The en dash is by definition exactly half the width of an em dash.

Under em dash it states:

The em dash (—) is defined as one em in width: the width of the capital M in any particular font. By definition the em dash is twice as wide as the en dash in any particular font.

In a face where the "N" is not half the width of the "M", which definition wins? Jake 20:11, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I would assume the "M" and "N" definitions, since they are the "em" and "en" dashes. I have only seen the double width definition on WP. - Omegatron 21:16, Jun 2, 2004 (UTC)

So should it be "The en dash is often exactly half the width of an em dash."? Presumably this is only true in proporionally spaced faces. Jake 19:30, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Google says both:

1. "It is, in fact, the width of a typesetter's letter "N," whereas the em dash is the width of the letter "M"—thus their names."
2. "em dash (which is the same width as the letter "M," — ) and the en dash (which is about half the width, the same as the letter "N," – )"
3. "An “em” is a unit of measurement defined as the point size of the font—12 point type uses a 12 point “em.” An “en” is one-half of an “em.”"
4. "In traditional typesetting, an em is defined as the width of the uppercase M in the current face and point size. An em-dash was traditionally the width of the capital M, an en-dash was half the width of a capital M and an em quad, a unit of spacing material usually used for paragraph indentation, was the square of a capital M. In screen representation, an em is more properly defined as simply the current point size. For example, in 12-point type, an em is a distance of 12 points. An em quad is always a square of the size of type to which it belongs. So, an em quad of 12pt type is 12pt high x 12pt wide."
5. "en dash (typesetters used to call it a "nut"), which is a little longer than a hyphen, and the em dash (a "mutton"), which is the longest. Technically, an em dash is as long as the point size of the type; that is, if your type is 12 point, the em dash is 12 points long; if your type is 36 points, the em dash is 36 points long. The en dash (the "nut") is half the width of the em dash."
6. "em - A unit of relative measurement originally derived from the width of the letter M. Fonts are scaled so that 1 em = point size."
   • "em dash - By definition, a dash the width of an em"
7. "em - A unit of measure, which is the square of a face's point size. Traditionally, the width of a face's widest letter, the capital 'M.' For instance, if the 'M' is 10 points wide, an em is equal to 10 points. By Microsoft: A unit of measurement equal to the current type size. For example, an em in 12-point type is equal to 12 points."
   • "em dash - One em wide, the em dash indicates missing material or a break in thought. Spaces may be added to both sides of the em dash."
8. "em: A measurement of linear space used by typographers in which the unit is as wide and as high as the point size being set; twice the width of an en. So named because the letter "m" in early fonts was usually cast on a square body."
   • "em dash: A dash the width of an em space. "

So traditionally em was the width of an M, and in modern digitized fonts it is the point size of the font. Whether the en is half or N sized, I don't know. - Omegatron 21:49, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)

Great research Omegatron. From this I suspect we should go with "en dash (typesetters used to call it a "nut"), which is a little longer than a hyphen, and the em dash (a "mutton"), which is the longest. Technically, an em dash is as long as the point size of the type; that is, if your type is 12 point, the em dash is 12 points long; if your type is 36 points, the em dash is 36 points long. The en dash (the "nut") is half the width of the em dash." An "N" is usually half as wide and an "M", so an en dash is often the the width of an "N", hence the name. Jake 22:38, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes, but paraphrase. The quotes above are literal quotes from (probably) copyrighted websites. So just condense the information from all of them into one paragraph (and maybe delete them from this page afterwards? I don't know if we need to worry about that.) And mention that "traditionally it is the size of an M, but in modern usage is the point size of the font". - Omegatron 13:54, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)

Browser support

Despite all the suggestions to the contrary in the article, Safari 1.2 on 10.3.4 displays every single one of the dashes correctly. This can be verified by dragging-and-dropping each of them into the "Favorites" section of the Character Palette and then selecting them. The "Character Info" section at the bottom of the palette will then tell you what Unicode character you're looking at (e.g. "horizontal bar" or "em dash"), and for all of the examples in the article it reports the correct one.

This is true for hair spaces as well, BTW.

Now, many/most of these kinds of characters (glyphs?) appear in only a few fonts--often just the system's default (Lucida Grande) or, at best, Big Caslon and some of the CJK fonts with a gazillion characters. I'm guessing that Safari is just using whichever font it can find to display the characters, which most of the time is probably Lucida Grande.

FWIW.

--anonymous WP newbie